Daredevil and Kitty vs Nightwing and Black Canary

Yes... but not while they are surrounded by concrete, which they will if Kitty takes them into the floor.

Depends if there is enough noise for him to see by.

@outside_85: Daredevil's hearing is sharp enough to hear a person softly sneeze at some 20 blocks away and if he focuses enough, he can literally hear everyone within the city at once. How much of a hindrance do you think simple concrete is going to be?.

And thats not even accounting for his radar sense.

Maybe, still isn't going to do them much good if Nightwing and Black Canary aren't standing on the ground though.

@outside_85: Um why?. Unless Grayson pulls up some plot device gadget out of his pocket, there is no place which will hide them from Matt.

You misunderstand, if they are not on the ground, there is no way team 1 can sneak up on them, which I assume is the point in Kitty sinking them into the ground.

@outside_85: No the point of Kitty phasing herself and Matt into the ground is to escape the Canary cry. She can subsequently appear from anywhere she pleases. Dinah and Dick will have no way of knowing when and where.

And how do they not stay on ground again?

They escape one, possibly, because neither of them are supersonic speedsters.

The climb one of the pillars.

@outside_85: They don't need to dodge the scream after it is launched. They just read the tells, like Matt hearing her vocal cords click, Nightwing covering his ears or at least making distance from the area of the scream and so forth. Hell Matt can just throw his Billy club to her throat. Having basic knowledge on their opponents help.

And climbing the pillars is just a temporary measure since that cuts out their options for offence too.

R1: Matt gets one shot by Canary, and Dick has enough of a skill gap on Kitty to overcome her phasing.

R2: Kitty rips out their organs.

@flashingsabre: Why is Canary one shoting Matt, barring the sonic scream?

For one thing, Matt is not a speedster. Secondly, Dinah is one of the top ranking h2h combatants, so throwing stuff at her throat is very unlikely to hit home. Thirdly, Nightwing is also there with the ability to throw his sticks the other way.

Same as hiding in the floor is.

Canary Cry can destroy molecules. Any1 knows how that would affect Kitty while intagnible?

@outside_85: He doesnt have to be a speedster to do that. Plenty of characters who are slower or as fast as Matt have managed to work their way around the cry in a similar fashion. All he needs to be is fast enough to react and act on the aforementioned tells, which he is.

Matt with his billy club trick shots has tagged faster and more skilled characters than Dinah, like Cap or Iron Fist. And he is accurate and precise enough to take down 12 guys with one throw and confuse and tag a move reader with sharper senses and equal speed as him

Plus I have never seen Dick perform trick shots of such caliber. You are welcome to show me otherwise.

Have they now? Or is it more of a case of Dinah not using it? And because she also knows what clicks and twitches are, she is also able to see what he is doing before he's done it and simply move out of the way or grab it.

Cap isn't more skilled than Dinah. Also I am going to call bull on it taking out 12 people, it hits one guy and it's expended most of the energy he's been able to put into the throw.

He doesn't need to be able to trick shot him, just knock it out of the air, a stunt that's not beyond his capabilities.

@outside_85: Yes like how Deathstroke took her out in Identity Crisis. He may be superior to Matt in most physical aspects but speed isnt one of them

Dinah isnt more skilled than Cap (we can debate this in detail in the relevant thread) and he has still shown faster speed and reaction time than her.

Why is the 12 man feat bull? Just because you dont like it? Street levellers do crap that is scientifically inaccurate more times than they care to count. You should know this by now.

And for Dick to knock them out of the air, he would need to know where its going to hit first.

@brucerogers: Matt is worthless against sonics. And he's not beating Dinah before she uses her powers. He has no significant advantage over her in H2H.

What Slade did was somersault over her head while pulling a bag down over her... that's quite beyond what I think Matt is capable of.

Yes she is, Cap stalls out at Batman (demonstrated the 2 times they tried), and Dinah is above Batman. For your info the usual ranking in DC is Cassandra Cain, Shiva, Canary and then you might have Batman.

So if he knocked out 100 guys with one hit, that would be all right to you? Sorry, but bullshit is bullshit.

He has eyes, he knows where it's going as soon as it leaves Matt's hand and likely even before that.

So Dinah is more skilled than Batman now? Where was I when this happened?

LMAO.

@outside_85: What Slade did was somersault over her head while pulling a bag down over her... that's quite beyond what I think Matt is capable of.

Wait what?. You really think a guy who has been able to keep up with freaking Spider-man in terms of acrobatics cannot perform a simple somersault and bag her over the head?. Do you know anything about DD?

And more importantly, he doesn't need to. He has his own tactics to deal with this.

Cap stalls out at Batman (demonstrated the 2 times they tried),

According to who exactly?

and Dinah is above Batman.

Bullshit. Pardon my language but that statement is not correct in the slightest. Her allegedly being above Bruce comes from that one statement from Barbara Gordon where she claims she could surpass him and even then, it's nothing but a statement and her word isn't the law. By feats, Batman is above her considerably.

For your info the usual ranking in DC is Cassandra Cain, Shiva, Canary and then you might have Batman.

Again according to who. You?

So if he knocked out 100 guys with one hit, that would be all right to you? Sorry, but bullshit is bullshit.

Well for starters, there is a huge difference between 100 guys and 12 guys. And no, it's not bullshit because you cannot accept it and because he has been doing improbable trick shots like this, forever. It's consistently been a part of his abilities.

He has eyes, he knows where it's going as soon as it leaves Matt's hand and likely even before that.

How will he know though?. You are just repeating your previous statement.

No he isn't. He has fought through sonic attacks before. Not that I am implying he can fight through something as powerful as her's, but he is not helpless against it like you are claiming

And yes, if they fight h2h she will lose. He is better by feats. Plus he is also stronger and faster, by a good margin.

I am guessing it is that one comment by Barbara Gordon, which is taken as gospel for some reason.

@outside_85: Dude you have inverted the quoting pattern. But anyways

I know you are vastly overestimating his capabilities here.

Am I?. Prove me wrong then. For the record, Daredevil's agility and coordination allows him to not only flip over an arrow after it is fired, but also CATCH it mid flip. He has even changed from his civilian identity to his superhero one when in midflip. So if you think he can't bag someone over the head while flipping, I think you are a lost cause tbh.

DC and Marvel, you know the people who own them?

Scans?. Official statements?. Anything?. You know besides overtly vague statements. Do you even actually understand how battle forum debates work?

And oh, crossovers aren't canon so it's a fools errand to even mention them. The only so called 'canon' encounter they have had was in that JLA/Avengers story, which is only canon in broad strokes. Even then Batman himself stating that he would lose to Cap after a long hard fight, really isn't helping your case

Is he now? Since when? By what feats? You do realize a shitton of his feats come down to preperation, gear and other trinkets and not just his h2h skills.

............................

According to most people who know what they are talking about.

Well, then it's clearly not you then.

Is there now? Ok, if rebounds are so easy to do, why don't basketball players score more often by bouncing the ball off peoples heads before it goes in the basket?

Did you just compare real life basketball players to freaking Daredevil?. I swear, your arguments are getting shittier with every post. But this one takes the cake.

He's an expert fighter who fights with the same tools Daredevil uses and the same way.

But that does not mean he can mirror every move perfectly. So this is just another vague statement.

@brucerogers: Dude, he has trouble fighting in the rain. A half dead, half crazy Klaw was wrecking him with passive sound. He is worthless against people with sound powers.

Canary takes out daredevil with her scream, kitty takes out night wing by phasing him into the ground, kitty vs canary depends in who's faster to act after that

That not accurate, assuming you're talking about their fight in Daredevil vol 1 issue 237. Klaw was in no way "wrecking" Matt at all.

@outside_85:

He quite likely could. And he doesn't need to mimic what Matt is doing, just knock the stick out of the air, thats not exactly difficult for someone like him. But then again, you give me all the impression you haven't got a clue who Nightwing is and he's just like the random smucks Matt spends his nights beating up while pretending to be Batman.

Do you have any feats to support that Nightwing can knock the billy club out of the air? Because Matt has hit Iron Fist with a ricochet in vol 2 issue 87, despite Danny flat out dodging the initial throw.. This isn't even mentioning that he has nailed a guy with pre-cog back in Daredevil vol 3 annual. The club was actually ricocheting all over the place and was such a complex throw that he couldn't dodge it, despite again, dodging the initial throw. Matt times his shots so that even if he misses, the ricochet nails them anyway. He does this constantly

@flashingsabre: Sure thats one instance from like a thousand others where he has fought in rain or worse without any problems.

And like Blackestknight mentioned, Klaw did not wreck him at all. I suggest you read the story again. He has been point blank near explosions, gun shots and various other sources of loud sounds and he has been far from helpess.

@outside_85: Sooo, you clearly have no clue what you are debating?.

Yup I am done here.

@blackestnight93: @brucerogers: Did you guys not read the Waid run? Sorry if I believe the recent, critically acclaimed run written by one of the biggest hero encyclopedias in the industry over a few random instances from a few decades ago.

@flashingsabre: Yes I read it, and as much as I loved it, he isnt the ultimate authority on the character where his take would simply supersede other authors, especially those who have done the character much better justice.

That said, Klaw didnt wreck Matt in Waids run either. Let me give a run down of what happened.

-Matt gets hooked on to a machine, which ruptures his eardrums when he tries to escape.

-When chasing Klaw, he is hit with an intense sonic burst which affects his radar at but he is otherwise still in shape to fight with his other acute senses.

- He beats the crap out of Klaw

Where exactly is the helpless part again?

And if you want to compare recent feats, he has been hit with a sonic weapon twice during Indestructible Hulk #9 and wasnt all that worse for wear.

@brucerogers: Alright, I did forget about the Indestructible Hulk feat, so , I'll give you that one.

He still isn't beating Canary, though.

@flashingsabre: And why not? You can look at my pervious post as to how he can work his way around the cry, even assuming she will simply open with it willy nilly, in the morals round.

She does this to nightwing and canary. No healing factor, so they lose limbs

Allow me to point out that it shouldn't be needed since Dick's been throwing precision bat-rangs around since he was in shorts, it's sort of one of the basics of what this character can do: throw things with accuracy.

That's all very nice, but at this stage, it's just words. But allow me to point out that ricocheting is one thing, being knocked out of the air by another projectile is something else. In order for Matt to do something like this he would have to know, before he's actually thrown is own club, where along the shaft Dick was to hit it, how hard he hits it and where in the air he hits it. Otherwise this turns into the silly scenario where Matt could just drop it on the floor and it automatically bounces around and only hits the people he doesnt like.

Kitty solos

Can Kitty phase through sonic attacks ?