Daredevil and Connor Hawke vs Lady Shiva and Daken

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I think you guys are also forgetting this is a team fight, not 2 different 1 on 1s. I've never seen Shiva or Daken use team work or even care about their "friends"

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" @Strafe Prower said:

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I think you guys are also forgetting this is a team fight, not 2 different 1 on 1s. I've never seen Shiva or Daken use team work or even care about their "friends"

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Shiva's teamed with several people. The Question 1&2, Batman, Nyssa, Green Arrow, and she even teamed with the League of Assassins when they killed Cassandra Cain. O-Sensei is another character she teamed with but he's her Godfather so that may not count. I know nothing about Daken but wasn't he on the Dark Avengers? "

Daken & Lady Shiva.

" @Gambler: But I don't think either would care much if the other went down or was injured. They wouldn't use teamwork as effectively because they both have an attitude of "Holier than thou" IMO "

Just to reiterate the original post: Daken does not have his pheromones here.

" @Gambler: Sorry, I didn't see how long this thread was.... He was able to go against Wolverine and I think he might have wiped the floor with Deadpool. "

" @Gambler: Just from them being Hero's with a common enemy who they both have heard of/fought would bring DD and Connor together IMO. There is nothing DD or Connor would do that would make them not use teamwork IMO. "

Connor Hawke has a healing factor now, so that should play into things as well.

" Connor Hawke has a healing factor now, so that should play into things as well. "

Scans of Daken's fights with Deadpool and Cyber.

Daken hits his father before he can see him.

" @Gambler: I'm sure they could figure that out with the way they fight, like when they don't try for kill shots. I never said They were dumb, but I just see Shiva and Daken being less likely to help the other out if one was in trouble, than Connor and DD. Also, I think DD would put down Daken before Connor would be defeated by Shiva. Daken has beaten Spiderman and Wolverine, I don't see anything Daken brings to the table that DD couldn't counter with a better move. DD is the better fighter, has better senses, has great stealth, and Is immune to Dakens dissapearing act. I don't see Daken beating him.  If that proves true, then It's Connor and DD vs. Shiva in which Shiva loses. She is a top teir fighter, but she isn't that good. "

" @Gambler: I see a chance that DD could use Pressure points to give himself the time to maybe help Connor for a split second. Shiva never fought Connor and Nightwing up close at the same time in those scans, so I don't see what you are saying on the second part. With His bow and arrows with him, she has to K.O. or break every bone in his arms Connor not to be a factor, which I don't think she could do in a short amount of time. Above, He gave her a good fight and I don't see her finishing a second round fast at all. It's not so cut and dry as it would seem when you first look. IMO. It will be a long and drawn out fight. "

" @Gambler: There is a difference in Nightwing and DD though. A big one in fact and plus she didn't defeat Nightwing, she kicked him once and then his time was occupied with something else. There is a chance that if Nightwing would have stayed it would have turned out different. I didn't know she had teamed up so much either. I've only seen her run solo. I don't really have much else to say LOL. I was just trying to spark debate. "

" @Gambler: I agree. I find it odd to see Shiva on a team. Who was on the Birds of Prey with her? "

" @Dane said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" @Lunacyde said:

"@k4tzm4n said:

" I think Daken is being vastly underrated here.  He should take a majority over DD.  However, I'm curious about how his "disappearing act" would work against Daredevil's radar. "

Shouldn't be too effective considering it's based on sight, while DD uses all his senses in a 360 view. I think depending on how arrogant Daken gets, DD could possibly take him down although Daken is more dangerous than some are letting on. "

I figured it wouldn't work, but I'm still curious how it would appear to Daredevil, since he can LITERALLY vanish when people (Deadpool, Cyber) were looking directly at him.  So, I'm wondering if Daredevil would just find it funny that Daken tried to run around him, or if Daken could do such and Daredevil would have a slight difficutly following him.  I'm sure he'd be fine following him, I guess it's just an interesting thing to think about for me.  But yeah, I think people are REALLY underestimating Daken's fighting abilities. He by no means requires the pheromones or lacing to dish out a beating. "

I won't take sides here, thankfully I don't need to. But I would say I didn't use current Daken with pheromones 'cause I'd say without I doubt he would solo team 1 with pheromones. If he can mask his scent using pheromones to trick a person's senses I think he could play havoc with DD's tracking abilities and throw Connor way off his game and thats before he even attacks them. I think Daken is getting a bit low balled but I'm confident someone will post some of his showings to put the balance back. I think either side could have a good argument for/against though. "

Daken allegedly didn't even use the pheromones against Cyber or Deadpool.  Cyber, apparently because it was before he knew of the ability.  However, I dispute it could be him passively using the pheromones, completely unaware.  Deadpool, he simply claims it's a trick he knows.  IIRC, he stated something like he "knows" where his foe is looking, and the trick is to simply not be there.  However, one COULD dispute this was just banter and he was indeed using the pheromones.  There's no way to know for sure, but it's fair to assume he can pull off the trick without the pheromones because of this. "

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I'll reply to other things as I see fit, since I arrived rather late to the thread. "

" @Morpheus_ said:

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I'll reply to other things as I see fit, since I arrived rather late to the thread. "

 
 

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Wish I could use that as my avatar

Yeah, without the motion the whole thing falls apart lol

I see that.

" @Morpheus_: Meh, I just dumped some scans since people were selling Daken a bit short. "

" @Dane said:

" @Morpheus_: Meh, I just dumped some scans since people were selling Daken a bit short. "

That's an understatement, both of your effort, and of the people that were selling him short. LOL. "

First an apology.  When I was on line last night it was after a 12 hr day and 2 and 1/2 hr drive home due to traffic, so I may have rambled a little and not made my point clearly. Which having re-read most of my posts I realize I didn't. on that
 

@Dane

" @beatboks1: Non-canon cross-overs are meaningless. Stop lowballing Shiva. If your big feat for DD is Batman's opinion then you should know Batman said Shiva was the greatest martial artist on Earth. That includes him fyi. "

  And once again I feel like a thread killer. anyone got some new life for this thread ???

" First an apology.  When I was on line last night it was after a 12 hr day and 2 and 1/2 hr drive home due to traffic, so I may have rambled a little and not made my point clearly. Which having re-read most of my posts I realize I didn't. on that
 

@Dane

said:

" @beatboks1: Non-canon cross-overs are meaningless. Stop lowballing Shiva. If your big feat for DD is Batman's opinion then you should know Batman said Shiva was the greatest martial artist on Earth. That includes him fyi. "

I'm aware of Shiva's skill. I'm also aware being an accomplished martial artist and former 18 year veteran ( S.A.S, 165 confirmed kills in battle admittedly only 71 of them in H2H but I was a 4th level marksman and team sniper) that martial skill does not always equal best fighter.
If it did than I wouldn't have rated Conner so lowly and stated that he was over rated.
The combat ability of any combatant comes down to a combination of factors of which skill is only one. The others being  tactical ability, intent, commitment,  and  mindset.
 
tactical ability  - pretty self explanatory its the ability to see what you can use to your advantage in the surrounding terrain, or the actions and reactions of the opponent. Someone with a good tactical ability and lower martial skill will trump someone with greater martial skill and lower  tactical ability. Obviously Shiva has this as well as martial skill.
Intent - someone with a killer attitude or a no fear of death attitude( no holes bared take no prisoners etc/ do anything in the face of danger) is going to have an intimidating presence and therefore make an enemy more likely to make a mistake. Someone with such a presence is always going to be more effective in combat. A perfect example would be gunfighters of the American west. The actual speed on the draw was only about 30% of what made a good gunfighter. The other 70% had to do with having enough guts to take the time to aim once you drew the gun. Bottom line, if you miss with your first shot no matter how slow the other guy is he's going to fire before you cock the hammer and fire again. Fast gunfighters lost when they were intimidated by others with a greater rep and rushed.   The killer instinct trumps the first two, hence my low rating of Conner. this is also in Shiva's favor but equally in Matt's and Daken's  ( Matt doesn't kill often but he has the intimidation factor on his side to the same level)
Commitment - this always plays a major role in any conflict. The proponent prepared to go the furthest  will always win , never any doubt. That is why freedom has always won the day in the end. Tyrants rule as long as they intimidate only enough as to not give those who serve them a reason to fear death or punishment less than them. In the end freedom becomes worth dying for so intimidation is trumped.
Mindset - the final and ultimate trump card. The coolest head always prevails. This some times come from shear confidence in ones own abilities. The icy cold ( which usually come more from belief) one can't loose. That is to say if you can "keep your head while others about you are loosing theirs" you will promote tactical ability up above intent. The type of people capable of this are usually the most committed . They are cool always analytical superior combatants prepared to go to any length. I had believed the only comic martial artist street level heroes who fit this mold ( the icy cold believer in a purpose) were Bruce, Mat, Steve and Ta'challa. While the cool heads due to confidence included the likes of Logan, Ben Turner, R Dragon, Shiva, Deadpool, Frank Castle. Having now seen some of the posted fights of Daken I now see he can be added to this list.  The reason I believe that Matt would beat Shiva easily is that Shiva would be equal to or just below Matt in martial skill and tactics but the advantage she noramlly gains through intimidation is lost. Her commitment is much less than that of Matt and she has no more a killer attitude ( a willing to be killed attitude to win which Matt has shown like forever matches Shiva's ferocity). In the end the fact that she would in no way intimidate Matt would be intimidating to her in the sense that it would undermine her own confince.   On the topic of Matt VS Daken may I first point out to thaose firing salvos at me last night I never actuall said that Matt would beat Daken. Most of my posts only stated that Mat was being underrated. The closest I came was in sayin something like "I'd SAY (my Opinion) Matt would win but wmight take more than he's ever had to do". I now say having read more than a few pages here and there on the web that it would be a close match that I couldn't pick the winner of.   My overall assessment has changed due to the fact that I believe in this match Conner is a non event and couldn't last long against either he would be of very littel help to Matt. Matt could take either and could do well if someone more likely to go the distance was backing his play. He'd drag this fight out for quite a while but in the end succumb to exhaustion if his opponents didn't get the best of him. "

team 2

NIGHTHUNTER!?

"Connor never stalemated Shiva. He fought well, but she won and was even about to kill him at the end. He needed (cant remember if it was Nightwing or Robin) to talk her out of it. He was ass out on the floor lol "

 

I think Lady Shiva and Daken will work better together.Conner not having DD's powers puts him at a major disadvantage.I think if Matt was fighting Daken and only Daken he would win but because he has to worry about and look out for someone else he would do worse.Look back at his fight against Ghostmaker.Elektra trying to help him actually made things worse. "

" The reason I believe that Matt would beat Shiva easily is that Shiva would be equal to or just below Matt in martial skill and tactics but the advantage she noramlly gains through intimidation is lost. Her commitment is much less than that of Matt and she has no more a killer attitude ( a willing to be killed attitude to win which Matt has shown like forever matches Shiva's ferocity). In the end the fact that she would in no way intimidate Matt would be intimidating to her in the sense that it would undermine her own confince.   . "

" @beatboks1 said:

" The reason I believe that Matt would beat Shiva easily is that Shiva would be equal to or just below Matt in martial skill and tactics but the advantage she noramlly gains through intimidation is lost. Her commitment is much less than that of Matt and she has no more a killer attitude ( a willing to be killed attitude to win which Matt has shown like forever matches Shiva's ferocity). In the end the fact that she would in no way intimidate Matt would be intimidating to her in the sense that it would undermine her own confince.   . "

I  couldnt disagree more. Shiva doesnt get intimidated nor does she depend on her opponent's intimidation. She's easily as skilled as DDif not more so. I'd say her killer attitude is well above DD's, and she has a body count to back it up. In fact being killed by Shiva is considered an honor, she only kills foes she deems as worthy (worthy meaning they gave her one hell of a fight. Which helps disprove the being intimidated theory). The only thing DD not being intermediate would do is gain Shiva's respect. The only fights she does not commit herself fully to are against scrubs and people below her level. Fighting is her life, its all she lives for. So her lack of commitment would be a non-factor here. DD might be able to beat her, but it wouldn't be because of the reasons listed. "