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#1 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
Daredevil and Connor Hawke vs Lady Shiva and Daken.
 
Location: Vatican City (empty).
Equipment: Daredevil has his billy clubs, Connor has his Bow and regular Arrows. Lady Shiva has shuriken, Daken is pre-bonding. 
Ammunition: Unlimited arrows and shuriken for Connor and Shiva respectively.
Conditions: No pheromones. Elimination by Death, KO or Incapacitation.  
 
Throw down.
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#2 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 wins due to an overall average superiority

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#3 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" Team 1 wins due to an overall average superiority "
elaborate.
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#4 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio

Let the DC learning begin!
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#5 Posted by geraldthesloth (32690 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one, I think anyone on the first team is more than skilled enough to defeat Daken in a one on one fight, and Connor has shown the ability to stalemate Shiva as well thanks to his photogenic move copying, Daredevil has enough skill to last with her as well, I think once Daken is finished off the bat Shiva won't have what it takes to defeat Connor and Matt.

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#6 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" Team 1 wins due to an overall average superiority "
elaborate. "
On average I would put a combination of DD and Connor as better martial artist duo than Daken and Shiva as well as having the weapon advantage with the distance advantage added to that. Connor's showing towards the likes of Shiva in the past as well as Cassandra and Drakon were more than impressive to place him high above the DCU martial arts elite as well Daredevil has the advantage over Daken of being a superior h2h fighter and having his radar sense. As well Connor and DD both have good distance weapons
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#7 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, I knew Connor was good but I didn't necessarily put him above Lady Shiva/Daken. Perhaps some Daken fans shall support his fighting skills.
 
*summons Morpheus back to the vine*

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#8 Edited by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Daken is being vastly underrated here.  He should take a majority over DD.  However, I'm curious about how his "disappearing act" would work against Daredevil's radar.
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#9 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio

Connor never stalemated Shiva. He fought well, but she won and was even about to kill him at the end. He needed (cant remember if it was Nightwing or Robin) to talk her out of it. He was ass out on the floor lol

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#10 Posted by Neon_Nemesis (2140 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
" Connor never stalemated Shiva. He fought well, but she won and was even about to kill him at the end. He needed (cant remember if it was Nightwing or Robin) to talk her out of it. He was ass out on the floor lol "
It was Drake
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#11 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio
@Neon_Nemesis said:
" @Gambler said:
" Connor never stalemated Shiva. He fought well, but she won and was even about to kill him at the end. He needed (cant remember if it was Nightwing or Robin) to talk her out of it. He was ass out on the floor lol "
It was Drake "
Yeah, him. Connor needed Tim to convince Shiva not to kill him. Doesnt sound like a stalemate to me :P
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#12 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

" I think Daken is being vastly underrated here.  He should take a majority over DD.  However, I'm curious about how his "disappearing act" would work against Daredevil's radar. "

Agreed. I'm curious as to how Connor Hawke takes out Daken. His healing factor makes the bow and arrow pretty pointless and his fighting skills are > wolverine and deadpool. I'd say that makes him a good fight for DD at least.
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#13 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
"@k4tzm4n said:

" I think Daken is being vastly underrated here.  He should take a majority over DD.  However, I'm curious about how his "disappearing act" would work against Daredevil's radar. "

Agreed. I'm curious as to how Connor Hawke takes out Daken. His healing factor makes the bow and arrow pretty pointless and his fighting skills are > wolverine and deadpool. I'd say that makes him a good fight for DD at least. "

I agree with everything except for the bow and arrow being useless.  While he's demonstrated having a good level of durability and a solid healing factor, arrows can still inflict a fair amount of damage (for example, hitting the neck, head, tendons, etc).  I'll try to help out here when I feel DD and Daken are being sold short, but mostly I'll be on the side lines learning about Hawke and Shiva. 
 
Question: Was Hawke the dude that had the brutal fight against the silent gunman? (tagging him with tons of arrows in a battle across the rooftops, IIRC)
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#14 Edited by Lunacyde (27746 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

" I think Daken is being vastly underrated here.  He should take a majority over DD.  However, I'm curious about how his "disappearing act" would work against Daredevil's radar. "

Shouldn't be too effective considering it's based on sight, while DD uses all his senses in a 360 view. I think depending on how arrogant Daken gets, DD could possibly take him down although Daken is more dangerous than some are letting on.
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#15 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll post the Connor Hawke vs Lady Shiva. Not picking a side (I dont know enough about Daken) just want to show the fight cause its badass lol.
 

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#16 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lunacyde said:
"@k4tzm4n said:

" I think Daken is being vastly underrated here.  He should take a majority over DD.  However, I'm curious about how his "disappearing act" would work against Daredevil's radar. "

Shouldn't be too effective considering it's based on sight, while DD uses all his senses in a 360 view. I think depending on how arrogant Daken gets, DD could possibly take him down although Daken is more dangerous than some are letting on. "

I figured it wouldn't work, but I'm still curious how it would appear to Daredevil, since he can LITERALLY vanish when people (Deadpool, Cyber) were looking directly at him.  So, I'm wondering if Daredevil would just find it funny that Daken tried to run around him, or if Daken could do such and Daredevil would have a slight difficutly following him.  I'm sure he'd be fine following him, I guess it's just an interesting thing to think about for me.  But yeah, I think people are REALLY underestimating Daken's fighting abilities. He by no means requires the pheromones or lacing to dish out a beating.
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#17 Posted by geraldthesloth (32690 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler: I didn't intend to write it off as stalemating, I meant holding his own you can take it either way though, the thing is he held it enough for a good amount of time against one of the best DC can offer.
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#18 Edited by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio
@geraldthesloth said:

" @Gambler: I didn't intend to write it off as stalemating, I meant holding his own you can take it either way though, the thing is he held it enough for a good amount of time against one of the best DC can offer. "

In that case yeah, I agree. It was an impressive showing for Conner. He's one of the top tier martial artists in the DCU, easy.
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#19 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio

How would Shiva fare against Murdock?  Right now I'm inclined to give team 2 the edge based on Daken likely being able to defeat either member of team 1.  His enhanced senses should only increase his odds since they're in an empty city.  He should be able to get the jump on Hawke, but obviously not Daredevil.

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#20 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't forget Conner is in like the top 5 marksman in DCU I wwould put him above his father

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#21 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
"Don't forget Conner is in like the top 5 marksman in DCU I wwould put him above his father "

How does that help him against a foe he doesn't see?  Daken has superb stealth abilities and with his enhanced senses, I have no reason to believe he wouldn't be able to sneak up on Connor (assuming Shiva is already engaging Daredevil)
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#22 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @Lunacyde said:
"@k4tzm4n said:

" I think Daken is being vastly underrated here.  He should take a majority over DD.  However, I'm curious about how his "disappearing act" would work against Daredevil's radar. "

Shouldn't be too effective considering it's based on sight, while DD uses all his senses in a 360 view. I think depending on how arrogant Daken gets, DD could possibly take him down although Daken is more dangerous than some are letting on. "

I figured it wouldn't work, but I'm still curious how it would appear to Daredevil, since he can LITERALLY vanish when people (Deadpool, Cyber) were looking directly at him.  So, I'm wondering if Daredevil would just find it funny that Daken tried to run around him, or if Daken could do such and Daredevil would have a slight difficutly following him.  I'm sure he'd be fine following him, I guess it's just an interesting thing to think about for me.  But yeah, I think people are REALLY underestimating Daken's fighting abilities. He by no means requires the pheromones or lacing to dish out a beating. "
I won't take sides here, thankfully I don't need to. But I would say I didn't use current Daken with pheromones 'cause I'd say without I doubt he would solo team 1 with pheromones. If he can mask his scent using pheromones to trick a person's senses I think he could play havoc with DD's tracking abilities and throw Connor way off his game and thats before he even attacks them. I think Daken is getting a bit low balled but I'm confident someone will post some of his showings to put the balance back. I think either side could have a good argument for/against though.
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#23 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Lunacyde said:
"@k4tzm4n said:

" I think Daken is being vastly underrated here.  He should take a majority over DD.  However, I'm curious about how his "disappearing act" would work against Daredevil's radar. "

Shouldn't be too effective considering it's based on sight, while DD uses all his senses in a 360 view. I think depending on how arrogant Daken gets, DD could possibly take him down although Daken is more dangerous than some are letting on. "

I figured it wouldn't work, but I'm still curious how it would appear to Daredevil, since he can LITERALLY vanish when people (Deadpool, Cyber) were looking directly at him.  So, I'm wondering if Daredevil would just find it funny that Daken tried to run around him, or if Daken could do such and Daredevil would have a slight difficutly following him.  I'm sure he'd be fine following him, I guess it's just an interesting thing to think about for me.  But yeah, I think people are REALLY underestimating Daken's fighting abilities. He by no means requires the pheromones or lacing to dish out a beating. "
I won't take sides here, thankfully I don't need to. But I would say I didn't use current Daken with pheromones 'cause I'd say without I doubt he would solo team 1 with pheromones. If he can mask his scent using pheromones to trick a person's senses I think he could play havoc with DD's tracking abilities and throw Connor way off his game and thats before he even attacks them. I think Daken is getting a bit low balled but I'm confident someone will post some of his showings to put the balance back. I think either side could have a good argument for/against though. "

Daken allegedly didn't even use the pheromones against Cyber or Deadpool.  Cyber, apparently because it was before he knew of the ability.  However, I dispute it could be him passively using the pheromones, completely unaware.  Deadpool, he simply claims it's a trick he knows.  IIRC, he stated something like he "knows" where his foe is looking, and the trick is to simply not be there.  However, one COULD dispute this was just banter and he was indeed using the pheromones.  There's no way to know for sure, but it's fair to assume he can pull off the trick without the pheromones because of this.
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#24 Posted by rbysjti (10859 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @Lunacyde said:
"@k4tzm4n said:

" I think Daken is being vastly underrated here.  He should take a majority over DD.  However, I'm curious about how his "disappearing act" would work against Daredevil's radar. "

Shouldn't be too effective considering it's based on sight, while DD uses all his senses in a 360 view. I think depending on how arrogant Daken gets, DD could possibly take him down although Daken is more dangerous than some are letting on. "

I figured it wouldn't work, but I'm still curious how it would appear to Daredevil, since he can LITERALLY vanish when people (Deadpool, Cyber) were looking directly at him.  So, I'm wondering if Daredevil would just find it funny that Daken tried to run around him, or if Daken could do such and Daredevil would have a slight difficutly following him.  I'm sure he'd be fine following him, I guess it's just an interesting thing to think about for me.  But yeah, I think people are REALLY underestimating Daken's fighting abilities. He by no means requires the pheromones or lacing to dish out a beating. "
Is this happening when the sun is shining brightly? If it is then, Daken would win against Daredevil for a certain reason. Even if it's night time, Daken has hyperkeen senses too, an excellent tracker and clever fighter,. And adding the attitude, Daredevil would lose.  Ans before i forget, cos everybody has not, the healing factor is a big advantage
 
As for Lady Shiva and Hawke, Lasy Shiva is just smart enough to be able to get close and beat Hawke on a hand to hand fight. Anyways, for as long as the distance is just enough for Shiva to reach her shuriken throws to  Hawke, I'm pretty sure Hawke will lso lose because it's easier and faster  to throw  shurikens with both hands doing it.
 
Team 2 wins here.
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#25 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: Connor has speed feats around Cassandra Cain level as well a shaving great senses
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#26 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n: Connor has speed feats around Cassandra Cain level as well a shaving great senses "

Wolverine couldn't track Daken. Nuff' said.
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#27 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n: Connor has speed feats around Cassandra Cain level as well a shaving great senses "
Wolverine couldn't track Daken. Nuff' said. "
Wolverine is not as fast or well trained as Connor though he just has super senses
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#28 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio

As well the disappearing act usually seems to be related with pheromones use

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#29 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n: Connor has speed feats around Cassandra Cain level as well a shaving great senses "
Wolverine couldn't track Daken. Nuff' said. "
Wolverine is not as fast or well trained as Connor though he just has super senses "
O_O that is easily debatable.
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#30 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
"As well the disappearing act usually seems to be related with pheromones use "

 Like I said, it's debatable, but been implied he can do it without them.
 
@Son_of_Magnus
said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n: Connor has speed feats around Cassandra Cain level as well a shaving great senses "
Wolverine couldn't track Daken. Nuff' said. "
Wolverine is not as fast or well trained as Connor though he just has super senses "

I was comparing their senses.  Plus, I'd find it hard to believe Connor has more training than Wolverne.
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#31 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n: Connor has speed feats around Cassandra Cain level as well a shaving great senses "
Wolverine couldn't track Daken. Nuff' said. "
Wolverine is not as fast or well trained as Connor though he just has super senses "
O_O that is easily debatable. "
Connor has multiple feats of moving faster than the human or meta eye in clear light as well a moving faster than mechanical tracking sensors. He has more impressive training and discipline then Wolverine He is a monk and all around has better h2h feats without the needed assistant of some meta powers
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#32 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
"As well the disappearing act usually seems to be related with pheromones use "

 Like I said, it's debatable, but been implied he can do it without them.
 
@Son_of_Magnus
said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n: Connor has speed feats around Cassandra Cain level as well a shaving great senses "
Wolverine couldn't track Daken. Nuff' said. "
Wolverine is not as fast or well trained as Connor though he just has super senses "

I was comparing their senses.  Plus, I'd find it hard to believe Connor has more training than Wolverne. "
It's not quantity it's quality ; ]
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#33 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
"As well the disappearing act usually seems to be related with pheromones use "

 Like I said, it's debatable, but been implied he can do it without them.
 
@Son_of_Magnus
said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" @k4tzm4n: Connor has speed feats around Cassandra Cain level as well a shaving great senses "
Wolverine couldn't track Daken. Nuff' said. "
Wolverine is not as fast or well trained as Connor though he just has super senses "

I was comparing their senses.  Plus, I'd find it hard to believe Connor has more training than Wolverne. "
It's not quantity it's quality ; ] "

Well in that case....Not only can Hawke not detect Daken if he's approaching in a stealth manner, but Daken was also trained by Cyber and Romulus, which has made him a superior fighter than Wolverine. Naa na na na naaa.
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#34 Posted by Assman (1997 posts) - - Show Bio

team two for me,  like 8/10.  Shiva with Daken, look out.  Connor already can't stand up to Shiva, so it will eventually be a two on one, and DD goes down, whether he's double teamed or not, if he stays in the fight long enough.
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#35 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" Connor has multiple feats of moving faster than the human or meta eye in clear light as well a moving faster than mechanical tracking sensors. He has more impressive training and discipline then Wolverine He is a monk and all around has better h2h feats without the needed assistant of some meta powers "
Wolverine has multiple speed feats in which he's dodging bullets at point blank range as well as several citations stating his "Superhuman Speed and Reflexes." He also has feats in which tracking systems cant lock onto him. In fact, most street levelers do. He's been training longer then Conner's been alive.  None of the feats you mentioned put him above Logan in terms of speed or training.
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#36 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" Connor has multiple feats of moving faster than the human or meta eye in clear light as well a moving faster than mechanical tracking sensors. He has more impressive training and discipline then Wolverine He is a monk and all around has better h2h feats without the needed assistant of some meta powers "
Wolverine has multiple speed feats in which he's dodging bullets at point blank range as well as several citations stating his "Superhuman Speed and Reflexes." He also has feats in which tracking systems cant lock onto him. In fact, most street levelers do. He's been training longer then Conner's been alive.  None of the feats you mentioned put him above Logan in terms of speed or training. "

Can I have my glove back once you're done slapping him across the face with it? Thanks. 
 
 
I just realized...Out of all the gauntlets...There's never been a Deathstroke one =O
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#37 Posted by rbysjti (10859 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" Connor has multiple feats of moving faster than the human or meta eye in clear light as well a moving faster than mechanical tracking sensors. He has more impressive training and discipline then Wolverine He is a monk and all around has better h2h feats without the needed assistant of some meta powers "
Wolverine has multiple speed feats in which he's dodging bullets at point blank range as well as several citations stating his "Superhuman Speed and Reflexes." He also has feats in which tracking systems cant lock onto him. In fact, most street levelers do. He's been training longer then Conner's been alive.  None of the feats you mentioned put him above Logan in terms of speed or training. "
 
Sounded like Storm dodging Cyke's optic blasts.",) 
 
Hmmm,.... But anyway, Is Connor normal human only but in peak human condition?
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#38 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler:@k4tzm4n: OK I'm back sorry I had to take a shower I was suffocating under my own stench lol. Anyway back to Connor Maybe what I said about Wolverine was premature I forgot he has meta speed. But I believe that Connor still is more impressive because of his h2h feats like his stalemates with Cassie Cain and Richard Dragon. As well as his ability to read body language and movement and photographic fight memory. As well I have my doubts on the disappearing act and if that has anything to do with  pheromones. As well Connor has improved incredibly since he fought Shiva
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#39 Posted by Final Arrow (24426 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @Gambler:@k4tzm4n: OK I'm back sorry I had to take a shower I was suffocating under my own stench lol. Anyway back to Connor Maybe what I said about Wolverine was premature I forgot he has meta speed. But I believe that Connor still is more impressive because of his h2h feats like his stalemates with Cassie Cain and Richard Dragon. As well as his ability to read body language and movement and photographic fight memory. As well I have my doubts on the disappearing act and if that has anything to do with  pheromones. As well Connor has improved incredibly since he fought Shiva "
Im with you on this one, Connor Hawke is on a very high level of H2h. Also with Wolverine with all this training he has had over the years, he still gets owned by people with less years of training. If we go by that logic then Cap, Iron Fist and my list can continue. I mean Connor Hawke took down a dragon XD thats a joke not actually part of my argument XD
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#40 Edited by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio
@Final Arrow said:

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" @Gambler:@k4tzm4n: OK I'm back sorry I had to take a shower I was suffocating under my own stench lol. Anyway back to Connor Maybe what I said about Wolverine was premature I forgot he has meta speed. But I believe that Connor still is more impressive because of his h2h feats like his stalemates with Cassie Cain and Richard Dragon. As well as his ability to read body language and movement and photographic fight memory. As well I have my doubts on the disappearing act and if that has anything to do with  pheromones. As well Connor has improved incredibly since he fought Shiva "
Im with you on this one, Connor Hawke is on a very high level of H2h. Also with Wolverine with all this training he has had over the years, he still gets owned by people with less years of training. If we go by that logic then Cap, Iron Fist and my list can continue. I mean Connor Hawke took down a dragon XD thats a joke not actually part of my argument XD "
Lol I thought it was a Dino but a Dragon is even better!!XD
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#41 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @Gambler:@k4tzm4n: OK I'm back sorry I had to take a shower I was suffocating under my own stench lol. Anyway back to Connor Maybe what I said about Wolverine was premature I forgot he has meta speed. But I believe that Connor still is more impressive because of his h2h feats like his stalemates with Cassie Cain and Richard Dragon. As well as his ability to read body language and movement and photographic fight memory. As well I have my doubts on the disappearing act and if that has anything to do with  pheromones. As well Connor has improved incredibly since he fought Shiva "

Again, he has NO counter to being taken out by a stealth approach from Daken.  The fight is in a massive city.  He has near endless ways to approach without being spotted.  And even if he can't vanish, there's no reason to believe he can't take him out in close combat either thanks to the combination of his skill, technique, claws, healing factor, and enhanced attributes.
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#42 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: Yes but Connor is still superior fighter as well as having his arrows that cvan double as a close quarters weapon. Connor is notorious for being an intelligent fighter who wins by out smarting his opponent rather than using sheer brawn and Connor has the acrobatic prowess to keep out of Daken's range
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#43 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio
still gets owned by people with less years of training. If we go by that logic then Cap, Iron Fist and my list can continue.  
 


Wolverine's loss to Iron Fist? As in their CLASSIC battle? Oh please, LOL.  Also, Cap has never flat out defeated Wolverine (the only case is origins and that was an even bout which involved the m-blade).  Wolverine actually has more wins over Cap, who is highly regarded as being among the top street level combatants.  As for Wolverine losing to lesser skilled characters in hand-to-hand combat, I believe we call that poor writing or a plot device.  It wouldn't be a very good read if Wolverine simply slashed and killed all of the foes, now would it?  Besides, we're disputing Daken here, not Wolverine.  The only comparison to Wolverine was intended to be about his senses, since Magnus claimed Hawke's senses could allow him to detect Daken.  And I'm calling BS on that ;) 
 
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#44 Posted by Final Arrow (24426 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" @Gambler:@k4tzm4n: OK I'm back sorry I had to take a shower I was suffocating under my own stench lol. Anyway back to Connor Maybe what I said about Wolverine was premature I forgot he has meta speed. But I believe that Connor still is more impressive because of his h2h feats like his stalemates with Cassie Cain and Richard Dragon. As well as his ability to read body language and movement and photographic fight memory. As well I have my doubts on the disappearing act and if that has anything to do with  pheromones. As well Connor has improved incredibly since he fought Shiva "

Again, he has NO counter to being taken out by a stealth approach from Daken.  The fight is in a massive city.  He has near endless ways to approach without being spotted.  And even if he can't vanish, there's no reason to believe he can't take him out in close combat either thanks to the combination of his skill, technique, claws, healing factor, and enhanced attributes. "
You also not taking into fact that Connor during the Green Arrow one year later fiasco, was trained by many of the worlds top fighters and not just fighters, he was trained in Medical practice, electronics and much more. Im sure more then one of these master would have prepared him to be ready for stealth attacks. Sadly DC never seem to use these facts when talking about any of the arrow family any more. Also during the Dragon Blood Saga he managed to save Sahdo from a stealth attack when he sensed there was something wrong, knocking her out of the way of an arrow. Of course this is just the writer, as before that she had done the same for him. But I do think your underestimating Connor fighting abilities. 
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#45 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio

 Part 1 of hitting a bullseye two miles away senses feat
 Part 1 of hitting a bullseye two miles away senses feat


 part two
 part two


 taking out helicopter by hitting blades that is a feat for vision as well he had to be able to watch the blades slow down
 taking out helicopter by hitting blades that is a feat for vision as well he had to be able to watch the blades slow down


 acrobatic feat able to flip fast enough to keep up with the car
 acrobatic feat able to flip fast enough to keep up with the car


 n@gg@ wrestled a dinosaur
 n@gg@ wrestled a dinosaur


 A DINOSAUR!
 A DINOSAUR!
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#46 Posted by k4tzm4n (41715 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes but Connor is still superior fighter as well as having his arrows that cvan double as a close quarters weapon.  
 

You don't know for a fact if he is indeed superior to Daken in terms of technique.  Every handbook entry has ranked Daken on the highest level for fighting abilities, and so far he's done an excellent job demonstrating it.  I, on the other hand, never stated Daken is SUPERIOR to Hawke in technique, but instead all of his other advantages should make the outcome rather obvious.  And yeah, Daken already has 6 close combat weapons equipped right off the bat...And likely the advantage of a surprise attack thanks to his enhanced senses and stealth ;)
 
 

Connor is notorious for being an intelligent fighter who wins by out smarting his opponent rather than using sheer brawn and Connor has the acrobatic prowess to keep out of Daken's range  

When has Daken ever been shown to rely on brawn?  If anything, he's known for his intellect.  He manipulates nearly everyone he's encountered.  The only time he's been seen as otherwise was courtesy of Bendis in the one-shot involving Barton.  While entertaining, it's beyond poorly written in terms of how certain characters would act.  And no evidence has been presented which would imply Hawke could "keep out" of Daken's range.  Again, how does Hawke counter Daken's stealth abilities? Which the likes of Wolverine couldn't detect at all? 
 

 You also not taking into fact that Connor during the Green Arrow one year later fiasco, was trained by many of the worlds top fighters and not just fighters, he was trained in Medical practice, electronics and much more.  

And perhaps it is you who haven't read all of my posts in this thread ;)  As stated before, my knowledge on DC is rather limited.  I would only consider myself to be an expert on two characters (Deadshot, Bane).  I know the basics of these characters, but wish to expand my knowledge.  I have never insulted Connor's fighting abilities nor have I stated Daken is superior in terms of fighting abilities.  I believe it is Daken's other factors (stealth, healing factor, enhanced attributes, claws and skill) which would allow him to win against Connor...Especially in an urban environment which provides near endless cover and paths to reach your target.
 
 

 
Im sure more then one of these master would have prepared him to be ready for stealth attacks.  

And I'm sure he'll be on high alert here.  That doesn't change the fact that Daken has demonstrated being one of the top stealth characters in the Marvel Universe.  As Morph previously reminded me, Daken was able to enter the Baxter Building and get into the same room as the F4 without being detected.  Being able to counter basic stealth is one thing, but Daken honestly has perfected the art.
 
 

Also during the Dragon Blood Saga he managed to save Sahdo from a stealth attack when he sensed there was something wrong, knocking her out of the way of an arrow. Of course this is just the writer, as before that she had done the same for him.  

Interesting.  This has been only used once?  I'll credit him with this ability and presume it could save him from an initial stealth attack.  However, that doesn't change the fact Daken has caught him by surprise and is now engaging him in close combat.
 
 

But I do think your underestimating Connor fighting abilities.    

How?  As I said, I've never dismissed his fighting abilities, only credited Daken's other factors and questioned Connor's ability to locate Daken.
 
 

 
 

 

 

 
 

 

 

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#47 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus: Nothing personal, but Daken would rape a dinosaur. Possibly literally.
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#48 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15463 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @Son_of_Magnus: Nothing personal, but Daken would rape a dinosaur. Possibly literally. "
+It's nothing to take serious it is just something silly
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#49 Edited by Final Arrow (24426 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:


And perhaps it is you who haven't read all of my posts in this thread ;)  As stated before, my knowledge on DC is rather limited.  I would only consider myself to be an expert on two characters (Deadshot, Bane).  I know the basics of these characters, but wish to expand my knowledge.  I have never insulted Connor's fighting abilities nor have I stated Daken is superior in terms of fighting abilities.  believe it is Daken's other factors (stealth, healing factor, enhanced attributes, claws andskill) which would allow him to win against Connor. ..Especially in an urban environment which provides near endless cover and paths to reach your target. 


Actually he has thought someone with claws and healing abilities, During the Blood Dragon Saga the main villain to say actually turned into the human embodiment of the Dragon claws healing and skill.  I think you misunderstood me when I said you where not taking into account connor training after year one, I was merely pointing out his training and never said you insulted his fighting style im very sure I never even said that, in fact 100 percent sorry if you took it the wrong way.  My point was that with his training Connor is more the capable of taking on a person with meta abilities. I may not have read all your post, but is there really a need for me to go back and read every post anyone has made in a single battle thread, that now dawns on three pages to post my point of view? 

 
 

And I'm sure he'll be on high alert here.  That doesn't change the fact that Daken has demonstrated being one of the top stealth characters in the Marvel Universe.  As Morph previously reminded me, Daken was able to enter the Baxter Building and get into the same room as the F4 without being detected.  Being able to counter basic stealth is one thing, but Daken honestly has perfected the art.

 This I can see but as you have pointed out your knowledge of Connor is not the best. His skills of stealth are very high to, I would say that Draken is on a whole other level but he would be able to at least detect him to some degree, when he came closer, 
 

   Interesting.  This has been only used once?  I'll credit him with this ability and presume it could save him from an initial stealth attack.  However, that doesn't change the fact Daken has caught him by surprise and is now engaging him in close combat.

 No this has been used a couple of times, but not in a large way to be honest.
 

  How?  As I said, I've never dismissed his fighting abilities, only credited Daken's other factors and questioned Connor's ability to locate Daken.

 
 At no point have I said that you have dismissed his fighting abilities, I said I think your underestimating him. You even emitted yourself that your knowledge on the character is limited. To me that would mean you do not have a full girb on what he has done and what training he has, underestimating is very different from dismissing. All I was stating was that you seem to be underestimating his skill's but now we know why. Sorry if that came across in a different way then it was intended but I never said you dismissed his skills. 

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#50 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @Dane said:
" @Son_of_Magnus: Nothing personal, but Daken would rape a dinosaur. Possibly literally. "
+It's nothing to take serious it is just something silly "
lol, Daken/Dinosaur rape wasn't serious :P