Dangai Ichigo vs Zagred(Black Clover)

Ichigo can't counter Kotodama Magic tbh, though unless if Zagred uses it to forcefully injure Ichigo, Ichigo tanks pretty much anything coming his way.

As is with any BC vs Bleach high tier debate, a low key stalemate.

I feel Zagred can take it due to his magic. He can summon the thing from the demon realm which eats away at the person's life.

Zagerd is pretty op, even in terms of Destructive Capability and Durability. He was able to take and overpower attacks from Lumiere, the same Lumiere that oneshoted the Demonified Licht. And that Licht was frickin huge, just his skull is comparable to the mountains that surround him.

I don't see how zagred harms ichigo. His word magic has never actually injured someone directly iirc he just made their bodies move. Ichigo would vaporize him with a shockwave especially since zagred wouldn't expect it

@theemperor95: He has a spear that disintegrates matter, and can open portals to the Demon World that pour forth life absorbing demonic mass. Ichigo won't vaporize him with a shockwave, Zagred has Large Mountain to Multi-Mountain durabiltiy, and even has regen on top of it.

@one_of_two: does it disintegrate matter? It's been a while since I read that fight

Life absorbing mass could get destroyed as well tbh unless it absorbs life incredibly fast. Large mountain-multi mountain is nothing to dangai ichigo. That level of durability would get one shot

What are you basing this on?

@one_of_two: the fact that ulquiorra would be that level at least and he was one shot by VL ichigo

Not to mention his ultrafraggor feat puts his casual striking vastly above multi mountain

@theemperor95: But Vasto Lorde and Dangai are two different forms. How do you scale them, when they have nothing in common. And Aizen never shot his Ultrafraggor. He used his normal Fraggor and that took out Ichigo's arm. Also isn't that a durability feat?

Zagred

@one_of_two: ichigo dangai form is his VL form mixed with the rest of his powers meaning that it's stronger. Also aizen made the claim that ichigo couldn't use his arm anymore but seeing how he thought ichigo didn't have spiritual pressure and that it didn't really seem to completely bother ichigo I don't think his arm was unusable just very injured

Also ultrafraggor was the combination of 12 fraggors and ichigo casually overpowered it

@theemperor95: But Ultrafraggor was never fired, Ichigo only overpowered Aizens choke on him. I don't see how any of this translates to over Multi-Mountain Destructive Capability

Zagred oneshots

Dangai IIRC is Multi Mountain level as well so they're on a even playing field this comes down to hax and I give that to the word demon.

@one_of_two: ultrafraggor was already charged and "solidified" meaning that to destroy like ichigo did he would need to overpower it much like VL ichigo did with Lanza

http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/419/20

@theemperor95: That is not how that works. He didn't overcome the actual explosion or the yield of the attack.

Lanza exploded in his hand Fragor didn't explode at all.

@decaffeinated: that's exactly how it would work via in verse mechanics. He wouldn't be able to disperse aizen reiatsu attack unless he overpowered it unless aizen was still charging it up.

By the logic you're using he didn't overpower Lanza either because it didn't yield nearly the same destructive power as it's previously explosion

@theemperor95: he contained Lanza's yield in his hand he did no such think to Aizen's Ultra Fragor the fact that a single Fragor hurt him is enough proof of that.

@decaffeinated: he overpowered it with his sword instead of his hand that's the only difference. The fact that he could disperse them despite being injured by 1 just means that he hits harder then his durability which isn't that uncommon

If VL ichigo destroyed the Lanza by swinging his sword instead of using his hand it would have done the same thing. Ultrafraggor doesn't need to explode to prove ichigo can overpower it

Edit: also how would ichigo have dispersed ultrafraggor like that if he didn't overpower it?

@theemperor95:

He didn't overpower it though the attack hadn't gone off yet that's like cutting a wire to a bomb vest and saying I overpowered it. Not a perfect comparison but it works. Meaning Ichigo didn't contend with the yield he just dispersed it.

As with Lanza it was like taking that bomb and letting explode in your hand.

Ichigo's striking strength is way above that level

@decaffeinated: comparing it to a bomb vest is entirely inaccurate. If aizen was still charging it up then you could make the comparison but once it's done charging there's no defusing it per say. It's like in dragon ball if goku creates a spirit ball once it's done gathering energy you need to overpower it to get it to go away. You can't just "cut the wire"

Trying to liken an energy blast to a missile or bomb is fallacious because it's been proven time and time again that energy blasts have no weakness like that and will just explode unless to deflect, block or destroy them.

Again in bleach a battle between shinigami is a battle of reiatsu so in order to get rid of aizen reiatsu (which is all ultrafraggor is comprised of) ichigo has to be stronger. Otherwise it would have been like him trying to block cero oscuras, he would have been essentially one shot by it

Edit: I'm not sure how him overpowering fraggor is all this unbelievable to you if you have more spiritual pressure then someone then you can hit harder then them and ichigo was in a completely different dimension tier then aizen

@theemperor95: the comparison still works it's not just a "bombvest" if could be any explosive. He did not face the explosive yield of the attack. The wire of said bomb is Aizen's reiatsu and Ichigo "defused" it with his own. He did not how ever tank or overpower the DC if multiple Fragors.

@decaffeinated: you just said ichigo overpowered it. To defuse aizen reiatsu with his own means that he overpowered it. That's how bleach fights work except where hax is involved. Ichigo doesn't need to have the explosion go off and then disperse it. Kubo implications are very clear ichigo is far stronger then aizen and by extension ultrafraggor could be

@theemperor95: except all that allowed Ichigo to do was stop if before it exploded. He did not overpower the actual yield.

If his body was strong enough to withstand the force of slashing through 6+ Fragors he wouldn't have been hurt by 1.

@decaffeinated: 1. idk how to break this down more simply. To disperse it he has to overpower it. You can go back to his fight with kenpachi. He didn't have nearly as much reiatsu as kenpachi had so he couldn't do anything to him. This is the same concept he can't disperse a solidified attack of pure reiatsu unless he is stronger then it

2. I don't even understand what you are trying to say by he shouldn't be able to withstand the force of his own swing

3. You still have no answer to the fact that ichigo by aizen own admission was in a completely league from him meaning he hits vastly harder as well

@theemperor95: You don't need to make it simple you don't even understand what happened.

The Attack has more energy when it it's exploding than it does when it's not.

Using your logic I can say Killer be is Country+ in strength because he stopped a Ten Tailed TBB before it exploded.

Zagred

@decaffeinated: it's you who still doesn't understand what's happened. Naruto doesn't have the same in verse mechanics that bleach does.

Higher reiatsu is higher attack potency. Do you understand this? Do you understand aizen saying ichigo is vastly above him?

You might want to do some re reading because you seem to have forgotten some of the most basic mechanics of bleach or are purposefully ignoring them in an attempt to lowball

@theemperor95: That's not how it works.

You have lower DC than someone in Bleach and still match them if you're equal in terms of Reiatsu.

I understand the mechanics we are not talking about the mechanics of Bleach we are talking about how explosive attacks work. Ichigo did not face the yield of the attack the fact he was hurt by 1 Fragor proves this. Why didn't he contain the single as it was exploding by you're admission he can.

@decaffeinated: lower DC doesn't matter. DC in bleach doesn't matter at all and has been stated multiple time throughout several arcs.

We can even take another example. Ulquiorra has far more DC then base aizen but aizen attacks are far more lethal then Lanza

Hell fraccion have far more DC then even higher ranked espada but any casual attack from those espada will deal massively more damage then those fraccion

Ichigo doesn't fight like his hollow form that's why he didn't crush it. They have much different fighting styles. His hollow form ends fights incredibly quick and efficiently and brutally. Ichigo doesn't. This is shown when uryu was shocked that ichigo hollow form would keep trying to attack ulquiorra despite him clearly being defeated or ichigo not just vaping aizen from the get go and letting it drag on instead. If it was his hollow form I have no doubt that he would have crushed the attack honestly aizen wouldn't have even had the chance to fire off the attack

@theemperor95: The problem is that if this fight drags on, Zagred will flood the battlefield with the demonic mass. Even if Ichigo can clear it, it won't stop coming, there is an entire plane of existence filled with it.

@theemperor95: AP too a character with lower AP in Bleach can match someone with higher AP with just Reiatsu.

That excuse doesn't work why did he stop the larger Fragor but not the smaller one? Probably because bhe couldn't after it exploded.

@one_of_two: if his spear actually disintegrates matters then he takes it rather easily tbh. He's far faster

@decaffeinated: 1. What? I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. That sentence doesn't make much sense

2. He stopped the larger one because he decided to end the fight. He even says that "it's time to end this" right after he destroys it. He was literally toying with aizen and purposefully tanking and swatting everything aizen through at him. It's like saying he couldn't stop aizen from doing the hado 90 chant because he let himself get hit

@theemperor95: The sentence is just fine it makes perfect sense.

And that doesn't make sense why would he let an attack he can contain hurt him? Regardless of him ending the fight at that moment. Besides Ichigo was incapable of ending the fight.

Zagred takes this eventually only if he summons the trident, his other attacks shouldn't even scratch this Ichigo and word magic doesn't do damage. However if the trident doesn't ignore durability then Ichigo vaporizes him after a long fight.

We know in Bleach that reiatsu equates to physicals as early as Urahara training Ichigo, so Ichigo deflecting Ultrafragor like it was nothing would have him scale to the power of it (we can tell there was force due to the shockwaves of the slash)

And Fragor itself likely didn't injure Ichigo, it was probably the heat which should be insane since it was vaporizing massive chunks of landmass near-instantaneously.

@decaffeinated: I mean no offense but is english a second language? That first sentence was a big jumble

Why did ichigo catch aizen sword instead of dodging? He wanted to show off how much stronger he is. Ichigo is pretty notorious for tanking attacks that he can avoid

Also neither ichigo nor any of us knew that ichigo wouldn't end that fight. Aizen coming back from being vaped is an incredible feat and can't be used against ichigo

@theemperor95: If you can't read that's fine but the sentence makes sense.

@faradaysloth: that's an interesting point with the heat I hadn't thought about that.

Pretty sure Ichigo stomps. What does Zagred have that can kill Ichigo?

@decaffeinated: "AP too (this isn't even the correct to that you should be using) a character with lower AP can match someone with higher AP with just reiatsu"

Let's break that down

1. "AP too a character with lower AP"

That doesn't even make sense. Attack potency to a character with lower attack potency?

2. "Can match someone with higher AP with just reiatsu"

I could rework this whole sentence if you would like to show you what it should be. My reading comprehension is perfectly fine.

If I'm understanding it right you're also mistaken as someone with higher reiatsu will always have higher attack potency

Zagred is like small country and FTL. Dangai Ichigo is like what maybe multi mountain?

@namebk: Small Country? Are basing this on the Salamander databook entry or Demonified Licht's strongest attack. I find both to be very unconvincing.

For me, the Black Clover Top Tiers are Large Mountain to Multi-Mountain based on scaling from Lumiere's destructive capabilities.

@one_of_two: Demon Licht since Zagred was confirmed a high ranked demon by Lucifer. The demon got killed by Lumiere alone but a combo attack from Lumiere and Licht couldn't kill Zagred. Licht was affected from using the forbidden spell which was stated by Zagred and recieved an amp from borrowing the power of other elves and was still unable to kill Zagred.

@namebk: Yeah, I see where your coming from, but lets be frank, Demonified Licht wasn't really fighting back when Lumiere actually managed to put him down. And its true, Zagred wasn't even damaged by Lumiere when he attacked him, so I guess you do have a point here. But its kinda hard to think other people will buy Country level of off just statements really. That why I am using the much more reasonable Multi-Mountain level.