Daenerys Targaryen vs The Witch King Of Angmar

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problitz1111

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Daenerys Targaryen

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The Witch King Of Angmar

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  • Daenerys is riding Drogon and is followed by her two Dragons.
  • The Witch King is riding his Dragon and is aided by one Nazgul.
  • Battle takes place in the exact same location where the Witch King was originally killed.
  • Standard gear.
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haoalchemist

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Book feats, giving it to the big D.

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Kelvin_Quan

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So she has multiple dragons ??

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Delta16807

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#4  Edited By Delta16807

This is a total mismatch. Dragons or not, book's magic of the Witch King of Angmar is just WAAY too much. In movie, I still give it to the immortal witch king (at least until ring destroyed).

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problitz1111

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So she has multiple dragons ??

Yup.

The Witch King has the assistance of a Nazgul who is riding their own dragon:

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jt_gh

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Fire has already sent the Nazgul running once and the Fell Beasts aren't all that special. The Queen and her Dragons take this.

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Kelvin_Quan

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The Witch King never impressed me that much in the films. Aragorn beat his ass along with other Nazgul.

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MetalJimmor

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There's nothing to suggest that Dany can endure a Nazgul's cry. The moment she hears it she'll be driven into a state of utter terror and likely fall from Drogon's back (She doesn't exactly have much to grip up there). She's not even remotely a threat, but her dragons are. They should be able to kill the fel beasts and destroy the nazgul cloaks, but they don't have the means to actually kill the nazgul.

While I don't THINK the dragons would be effected by the Black Breath there's really no reason to think it wouldn't work. So I don't know. I'd say it is either a stalemate or the dragons succumb to sickness and die by the black breath while the nazgul survive and merely need new cloaks to resume their business.

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Kelvin_Quan

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Nazgul are weak to fire. They may not be able to per,enantly bring about death but if a guy with a torch can do so three dragons will do so easily. Film version that is.

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Delta16807

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#10  Edited By Delta16807

@kelvin_quan said:

The Witch King never impressed me that much in the films. Aragorn beat his ass along with other Nazgul.

Are you saying Dany is anything like Aragorn, the guy with the experience of more than one human lifetime, in combat? You think Dany easily does the same? Aragon would flat out beat pretty much the best sword fighter that GoT can muster, I would wager on it; even the likes of Ser Arthur Dayne. Even though in general, I think the great GoT fighters would beat the LotR movie ones; outside of Aragorn, Legolas and a couple others.

I don't think Dany has shown the feats to show that she is capable of handling even one of them in the same situation, without her dragons. It is only her dragons here really. One of the reasons the Witch King takes this so easily.

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Necromancer76

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#11  Edited By Necromancer76

The Witch King will absolutely demolish her. The only reason he died was because he was stabbed in the back by Merry. He can literally one-shot her with any of his weapons if Drogon dies.

Btw, the Witch-King doesn't ride a dragon, it's called a Fell Beast :)

I'm also going to assume the one Nazgul is Khamul because he's the second-in-command, and he's pretty powerful as well.

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noah_ouellette

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The cry of the nazgul Insta kills her. Then he shreds her dragons. What a stomp

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ToRANBlAk

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Witch King because he can ride and fight also correct me if i am wrong on this lore but isn't his weapons poisonous ? If yes then Its his victory also Daenerys still hasn't saw any other supernatural being besides the scorpion and her dragons

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Kelvin_Quan

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@delta16807: I am saying that the dragons defeat the witch King. He threw a torch into one. That wasn't impressive and three dragons will exp,out the weakness to fire quicker than a guy with a torch. My comments had nothing to do with Aragorn or his skills but how much easier three dragons will exploit the witch King.

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Necromancer76

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#15  Edited By Necromancer76

@kelvin_quan: The Witch-King can't actually die by fire. It's just intimidating.

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Kelvin_Quan

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@necromancer76: Well he loses but just doesn't die. He flails around while the dragons rein fire all over him.

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Necromancer76

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@kelvin_quan: That's possible. I don't think Dany will be able to resist Black Breath though.

Also, I think Fell Beasts and Danny's dragons are roughly the same size (the beasts might be a little smaller), so the dragons won't stomp instantly.

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Kelvin_Quan

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@necromancer76: I for one thought the Witch King was weak. The best thing he ever did was destroyed Gandalf the whites staff, other than that he was crushed in battle of the five armies by the tandem of good guys. There's the Aragorn loss and and humiliating manner in which he was killed.

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Necromancer76

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@kelvin_quan: Unfortunately, he was severely weakened by the creators when he had a lot of potential (General Grievous is another example). All of those things you said are indeed true. These happen essentially due to prophecy/destiny. Eowyn was able to kill the Witch-King ONLY because of the enchanted dagger that Merry had. So, if this is truly the case, then the Witch-King could never really die if the Ring isn't destroyed. That's pretty much the reason why Dany can't win. It's not like her dragons are weak or anything. It's just the fact that the Witch-King and his other Nazgul (assuming it's Khamul) can't really die in another "universe" without destiny.

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Kelvin_Quan

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#20  Edited By Kelvin_Quan

@necromancer76: Aragorn won the encounter. Just as Saruman and Elrond won the encounter. Permanent death isn't required to win a confrontation.

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Delta16807

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@kelvin_quan: If he cannot die, and Dany is kind of unsound in strategy, and just really controls he dragons - I say he can just focus her down, and I don't think the dragons can really stop it, though they would kill him. That still is a victory with who he is.

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Kelvin_Quan

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@delta16807: It wouldn't take much strategy for the dragons to rein him with fire. If a torch can produce enough fire for it to scream and flee in terror this fight ends quickly.

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Delta16807

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#23  Edited By Delta16807

@kelvin_quan:

A nazgul flying around is a harder target than a clumsy sneak attack on foot that is counter-ambushed when the torch was thrown. He gets to dany.

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Necromancer76

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#24  Edited By Necromancer76

@kelvin_quan: Aragorn won because the Nazgul were afraid of him. That's how they really lose. They can't fight people with true valor. It's unlikely that Dany will have the same kind of heart as Aragorn does. Elrond and Saruman won because the Nazgul were severely weakened in that battle (they didn't even have bodies to start with). I suppose if Daenerys somehow gets both Nazgul off of their mounts, on the ground, in the day, while they are really high in the air constantly bombarding with fire, then I guess Dany wins. But as far as I know, Dragons have no counter to Black Breath and Nazgul screams.

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Kelvin_Quan

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@necromancer76: Fire hurt them. Frodo has true courage but he isn't a skilled fighter. She does have true courage as evidenced by her exploits. None of that matters as the fire hurts them. Hell a wave took them out. Nazgul screamed on the mount and that didn't defeat the hobbits. Gandalf beat them with a ray of light from his staff.

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MetalJimmor

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@kelvin_quan:

The reason fire is dangerous to the nazgul is because it can damage their cloaks. The nazgul are naturally just spirits that cannot touch the physical world, so they clad themselves in cloaks and armor so they can speak with mortals and touch them. Destroying the cloak reduces them back to a spirit, but it does not kill them permanently. And they can still be deadly as spirits via the black breath which slowly poisons the soul of those fighting them.

The reason they fled at Weathertop was because Aragorn was a powerful Dunedain warrior who is resistant to the black breath, and if he destroyed their cloaks it would take months to get new ones at Mordor and travel north again, and by then the One Ring would be gone and they'd have to begin the search all over again.

In this battle the nazgul don't actually need their cloaks. They don't need to collect a physical object and no time will be lost if they have to get new ones. Thus destroying their physical body won't actually do anything but make them even more dangerous, as they can still slowly poison your soul as a spirit.

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Delta16807

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#27  Edited By Delta16807

@metaljimmor:

Well that made it conclusive enough for me to change this from a highly likely Witch King, to definitely witch king to me. You explained a couple of things about their spirit form I wasn't that sure about.

Though, where at specifically did you get this information? It sounds like some passages I should invest some time into.

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Necromancer76

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@kelvin_quan: Fire didn't hurt them, it scared them. Frodo doesn't really have that much courage, considering the fact that he didn't even attempt to fight them. She doesn't have anywhere near the courage of Aragorn, I can assure you. Fire doesn't hurt them. The wave was a huge one, enchanted by Elvish magic, and no that did not kill them. Their screams were weaker in the first movie because they weren't intending to harm the Hobbits (they also weren't screaming as loud as possible so they could avoid detection by the Rangers). Gandalf scared the mounts, not the Nazgul, and Gandalf is a god.

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USSJ3071

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witch king is essentially unkillable but fire drives him off. so he just outlasts them. he keeps coming back until he just kills them all in their sleep

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leito

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@kelvin_quan: Fire didn't hurt them, it scared them. Frodo doesn't really have that much courage, considering the fact that he didn't even attempt to fight them. She doesn't have anywhere near the courage of Aragorn, I can assure you. Fire doesn't hurt them. The wave was a huge one, enchanted by Elvish magic, and no that did not kill them. Their screams were weaker in the first movie because they weren't intending to harm the Hobbits (they also weren't screaming as loud as possible so they could avoid detection by the Rangers). Gandalf scared the mounts, not the Nazgul, and Gandalf is a god.

Frodo was scared at first (though less than the other hobbits) but eventually summoned enough courage to stab the Witch-King with his Westerness dagger... to no effect (the same weapon wielded by Merry, there goes the theory that it is a specially enchanted to hurt the Witch-King...)

In this fight, does Daenerys have a single fighting feat ? If not, it is simply the three dragons vs 2 Nazguls on their fell-beasts.
If the dragons can hit the Nazgul with their fire-breath, I think they can win (interesting theory regarding their physical shapes/cloaks, though)
I also think that the Black Breath and their screams could affect the Dragons. They can affect animals and, I guess, can affect intelligent or semi-intelligent creatures even more.

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noah_ouellette

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@leito: uhm? Frodo drops the dagger? He never stabs him

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linsanel_Doctor

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#32  Edited By linsanel_Doctor

GoT Dragons aren't impressive at all.. but they have firebreath so..

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leito

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@leito: uhm? Frodo drops the dagger? He never stabs him

I am talking about what happens in the novel.

"At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy. A shrill cry rang out in the night; and he felt a pain like a dart of poisoned ice pierce his left shoulder." (in A knife in the Dark)

In the next chapter: 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.'

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the_wspanialy

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While any of Dany's dragons trumps Nazgul's Fell Beast, I honestly don't see Dany resisting Black Breath.

@kelvin_quan: Aragorn won because the Nazgul were afraid of him. That's how they really lose. They can't fight people with true valor.

Not exactly. He was armed in torches and he took them by surprise. Also Aragorn himself was surprised by their unwillingness to retaliate, which suggest they were simply uninterested in fight. Besides Gandalf makes it clear that Aragorn, even aided by Glorfindel, would be outmatched by the Nine.

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decaf_wizard

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Witch King stomps badly

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nightcrawl3r

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this is not a fair fight witch king stomps.

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Outside_85

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Going with the extremely powerful, near unkillable, warrior-witch who can drive people to their knees simply by screaming at them.

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General_Disarray

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Witch-King doesn't ride a dragon, this is no fair.

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rogueshadow

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#39  Edited By rogueshadow  Moderator

Regarding the book versions, the Dragons definitely win. Drogon killed 214 people and burned/wounded three times that number at Daznak's pit. While immune to conventional weapons, I'm confident that magical fire will destroy TWK's body. All three is overkill. They can't permanently kill him, only destroying the One Ring/Sauron could do that.

I don't see Black Breath coming in to play here, its effects are generally only felt up close or prolonged proximity, to the degree that they will really have an impact here anyway. I doubt Dany will be all that fearful either, not enough to have a huge impact. She fought despite her fear when Drogon showed up and killed everybody at Daznak's pit. She started literally whipping him and telling him to back the hell off.

Even at the level of power he had at the Pelennor fields I see little reason TWK would have a shot.

Aragorn's feat against the Nazgul is generally overrated, there are so many factors at play, some of Tolkien's letters give a much clearer idea, but ultimately, it's a testament to his courage more than anything:

  • The Nazgul were far weaker than they were at the tail-end of the TA at the Pelennor fields.
  • They thought their task was done.
  • They feared the Barrow blades, Aragorn, and most of all Frodo.
  • The fire from the camp and Aragorn's logs also scared them and distorted their vision.
  • Frodo chanting Elbereth (Varda), a name which is deadly to them and frightened them.
  • They were surprised, expecting no resistance.
  • Having wounded Frodo, they thought the task was done and that the ring would soon be theirs anyway.

Barring the Pelennor fields, Nazgul really aren't that powerful, not to the degree people seem to think.

"Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken."

Movie/TV versions?

Well, in the films... The Witch-King >> Gandalf the White >> Gandalf the Grey. He didn't have a ton of feats so it's difficult to say what he could really do, but given how powerful Gandalf was, there's a good chance he wins.

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deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f

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the_red_viper

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#42 the_red_viper  Moderator

@jardinain2: Thanks for the tag but I don't know the LotR team well enough to comment.

I'd go with what Rogueshadow said though, he's an expert on both verses. Lol.

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ordeith

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The Witch King of Angmar.

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ToffeeX

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Drogon is much bigger than the fell beasts and there is also two other dragons. Dany doesn't even need to ride then she could simply command them to attack them and sit back in safety.

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Necromancer76

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@leito: Huh. Interesting how Frodo doesn't hurt the Witch King but Merry does. I'll need to look into that.

And no, Dany has never actually "fought" anyone before, so I agree it's kinda useless to have her in the battle anyway.

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Necromancer76

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@the_wspanialy: Well, that point alone helps the Nazgul in this case a lot more. It's weird why they weren't interested in the fight when the Ring was right there.

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GIliad_

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It was implied that the Nazgûl grew more powerful throughout the trilogy, perhaps as Sauron grew in strength and influence. Their cries only caused the Hobbit's discomfort but when they arrived at Pelennor Fields they were felling soldiers in swaths with the black breath.

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Richard96

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Dany hasn't combat feats. She dies

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MetalJimmor

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#50  Edited By MetalJimmor

@rogueshadow:

While I mostly agree with your assessment, I doubt simply overcoming one's fear is enough of a feat to say they can resist a supernatural fear inducing cry that can bring grown, hardened soldiers to their knees. Those soldiers fight every day against cannibalistic uruks and giant trolls, I think we can assume they aren't cowards.

Though it doesn't really matter since Dany's dragons are arguably better off without her as a burden.