Cyttorak vs Anti Monitor vs Mandrakk

@nightmarediablo712: No. The point was that his brother was removed from Nil, booted out and all of his Monitor status was removed. He was in Jail. It was Mandrakk robocalling 1-800-Rox-Ogama all the way from the Over Monitor outside of Creation itself, auto piloting him in one last attempt to get back at Superman. Rox had no powers. He still managed all of that in that body.

I did show you Crispus Allen. Those are scans from Final Crisis: Revealations. That is Crispus Allen. And it is a debunk. You said he wasn't powerful. I showed you scans of him showcasing his full power and ability to totally unmake and remake Creation.

Again, with the brother. I have asked you to show that scan two times that it was actually his brother and not rox mandrakk. I had already told that I don't rmbr it correctly. Using IIRC ,(if I rmbr correctly).

At the end of the comic. The only factor you needed to talk on, him getting impaled by the gl which was the only point I told as rox being harmed by fiction and not who you make him to be. Which you didn't and still don't .

It will still be only you quoting some debunk because you wanna convince yourself of your worth. I told you this before.

I said the radiant was faithless, IIRC (if I rmbr correctly)

I never even confirmed that she was actually faithless and I asked you to show me the scans.

So, by your logic, you did your debunk after what i asked you to clarify? Kind of being pitiful, aren't you?

Next, you said rox wasn't mandrakk when he infected ultraman (after he was kicked of from nil) . But in your own scan, I also attached it, its clearly stated that rox had already become mandrakk much before he talked to ultra man. (which you said wasn't the case)

So looks like a home run for me.

Ok mate, all you gotta do is ask politely for scans and not insist you are correct. I will happily make them for you and show you what happened. Rox appears and Superman activates the Miracle Machine, the Nil Monitor plot device can do anything machine that rewrites anything and does anything without limit box.

Superman used the Miracle Machine to wish for a happy ending. The GL core didn't do anything. Nobody did anything. The Miracle Machine made Rox lose because Superman wished for the Happy Ending for everyone. The Vampire God got staked, and lost, because the Miracle Machine said so.

Definitely not a home run. You missed a lot of important factoids in the comic.

Are you being serious rn.

Both the spectre and the radiant were faithless during FC revelations and continuing.

The only thing spectre got was the spear of destiny to remake creation.

The spear isn't a part of Spectre

And thus the radiant also got her faith back, just for the moment when Renee Montoya stole the spear from vandal savage.

In revelations it's clearly mentioned. Her power depends on free will and it was completely diminished due to the anti life equation in everyone.

She, got some faith back after Renee Montoya stole the spear.

However,the entire populace is still under the influence of anti life and it's been shown in FC resist and submit which takes place after revelations making her still depowered.

I missed nothing, in telling they were indeed faithless when rox drained them.

I said I would do this, so here it is. Here are all the showings of Radiants faith.

First appearance, has faith

One page later, still has faith

She doesnt show again until issue 3

Page one, issue 3, still has faith

She doesnt say anything until the other girl is healed mid issue 3, still has faith

Next page, has a lot of faith

Telling Crispus to have faith still

A ton of Have Faith in God talk that you said doesnt exist in this comic

Saying She is listening to the Radiant and Gods feelings on what to do, her faith in it all

"Actually telling everyone to have faith"

Skipping to issue 4

Telling Cain she still isnt afraid of him

Protecting everyone in Gods name with faith

Faith in her almighty power

Still has faith in God after Cain comes back

Skips to Issue 5, where Radiant watches Spectre/Crispus pass away and she gets scared, then this happens

She has faith, she lost it for about 30 seconds when she thought Crispus was gone forever.

Right here is where your entire argument goes right out the window <----

The end of the comic is 6 pages later.

Neither of them were faithless at the end of this comic. Both of them were 100%. The Spectre here as Crispus was a Creation maker and Ender and the Radiant was almost as powerful as he was. She gave him back all of his power and put the Spectre back in its place. Ogama comes immediately after this and wipes them out.

Your turn.

Mercy like free will has no power here

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/cEqbpJZZMwvzLqllyV_YhvWMY77yjzf3eBGiTBrVYUBhkmIJSX6qgtsV0HTyaAM50nxFTPXv1mB_=s0

As they were all enslaved by the anti life equation.

And this the radiant would actually be powerless.

Some narratives stating she is the mercy of God and God still exists won't matter in any way here. As that has no relation with the power she can use.

And the spectre that rox fought is still the one who had his powers taken by God

As its again stated in English

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/UwjLADVcSDXz_By-SF6BHGPuMBsdcNndrdee7g3pe3-dG9zj5AZMoCB3VBAR8klriGF9YSuqmjoA=s0

"powers whittled away"

Spectre has his powers whittled away by God and is actually implied to have been revolting against God (as what he should have done, although he didn't)

Point is again, made here " God has abandoned us"

Point I referred which you still didn't address is that, the spectre needed the spear of destiny and he didn't have powers nor is it a part of him

Radiant also gained some faith after Renee took the spear but the crux of the entire point and comic is that the ALE still continued throughout FC resist and submit. As was the thing which makes her depowered.

What you have linked isnt a showing of power, it's merely a stmt, that she believes but is never fact

Radiant here admitting she don't know how to forgive as no one had faith in God as is clear from above.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/5pfc8vvhPkAYYHj0d2OO6ysSVfKUm-PkXRSNQ2r3eZu3o1E4U6brdsWe74q46CChWmwS3h-S_biz=s0

Still running incomplete scans ignoring the conclusion of the comic of the ale continuing till FC 7 would invalidate your arguments .

I'm not sure whose argument you are throwing out beside your own ,with the half baked inference you put out.

I've said my piece to you, there is nothing left to debate. Good luck in your future debates on this topic.

Cheerio then

I'm actually not on board with Anti Monitor being more powerful than Cyttorak. Perpetua lobbed Mar Novu out of her domain and I think odds are stellar that she did the same for Anti-Monitor as well. We may know now why Anti-Monitor needs energy of universes and desires power. These Monitors made these universes originally, they didnt originally need any energy, they had infinite power to create multi-layed infinities on a whim. Anti-Monitor's eating everything in Crisis on Infinite Earth's could have been a power play to get back to the 6th dimension. (my theory)

I rank Cyttorak higher than Anti Monitor, even at full power during COIE. Absorbing universes says nothing about Anti Monitors abilities in combat, which were inferior to the Spectre and harmed by The Flash. Tom Breevort says Cyttorak is above Zom and Shuma Gorath depending on the Scenario, then that is the answer.

Mandrakk > Cyttorak > Anti Monitor

Wait, in the new JL run the Monitors come from the 6th Dimension?

Do they come from there? Not sure where they specifically came from or how Perpetua came around. But, she made the 6th dimension. The Forge and Creation was birthed in from this 6th unreachable place called the 6th Dimension.

All we know is that Perpetua is the Source and she made Multiverses and the Monitors that made the Orrery, the Dark Dimension and other places too.

Cyttorak shouldn't even be here IMO.

@andromeda101: In another scenario you are absolutely correct. The rules of this battle thread are that Cyttorak retains 100% of his Crimson Cosmos power in this battle. That Mandrakk is from Final Crisis and preserves his Nil/Over Monitor feats. And lastly, that Anti-Monitor maintains only his Anti-Matter negative universe showings from Crisis on Infinite Earths. That puts Cyttorak significantly beyond Anti-Monitor. Well, at least in my opinion.

@michaeljulius said:

Do they come from there? Not sure where they specifically came from or how Perpetua came around. But, she made the 6th dimension. The Forge and Creation was birthed in from this 6th unreachable place called the 6th Dimension.

All we know is that Perpetua is the Source and she made Multiverses and the Monitors that made the Orrery, the Dark Dimension and other places too.

@ouroborik said:

@michaeljulius said:

I'm actually not on board with Anti Monitor being more powerful than Cyttorak. Perpetua lobbed Mar Novu out of her domain and I think odds are stellar that she did the same for Anti-Monitor as well. We may know now why Anti-Monitor needs energy of universes and desires power. These Monitors made these universes originally, they didnt originally need any energy, they had infinite power to create multi-layed infinities on a whim. Anti-Monitor's eating everything in Crisis on Infinite Earth's could have been a power play to get back to the 6th dimension. (my theory)

I rank Cyttorak higher than Anti Monitor, even at full power during COIE. Absorbing universes says nothing about Anti Monitors abilities in combat, which were inferior to the Spectre and harmed by The Flash. Tom Breevort says Cyttorak is above Zom and Shuma Gorath depending on the Scenario, then that is the answer.

Mandrakk > Cyttorak > Anti Monitor

Wait, in the new JL run the Monitors come from the 6th Dimension?

Wait, Perpetua is the Source? And she's evil? They are making the Source evil?

@ouroborik: Seems that way, Yes. The scan said she is the Source, she made Creation, she has judges even beyond her and the Void carries all her other Multiverses. I think at the start of it all she was neutral. She got scared of being judged and went bad. Her kids fought her and trapped her in the Source Wall, which is the ultimate Truth of the Source Wall. It was just a prison for Perpetua.

Here, Peretua is talking to Mar Novu about Creation, the Void and other Multiverses.

Mar Says " You told me other Multiverses are formed by beings such as yourself. But our neighbors have no double in your form."

Perpetua responds that pretty much yes, she knows she has a Judge beyond her and that her creations swim on the Over Monitor. She goes on to talk about the judges of the Source, herself. The Judges want a different outcome than what Perpetua wants. Mar disagrees with her and is removed from power.

Yes, Perpetua is the Source. She was trapped inside of her own power, she is the Source, the Source Wall leads to her.

Starman and Brainiac wanted/did use the Totality to open the Source Wall to get her out

Highfather knows, he is upset now. He feels The Source calling and it was Perpetua the entire time.

This is nothing to Nix Uotan, by the way. Who put the Source Wall back in place.

(Mandrakk > Cyttorak > Anti Monitor)

@michaeljulius: So, who is Mar Novu?

@ouroborik: He is the Classic Monitor from Crisis on Infinite Earths. He is also the Monitor that Barbatos tied up in Dark Knight Metal.

Everyone loses

Well, I too may have misjudged what the topic creator meant. It said about "COIE Anti Monitor (in his anti matter universe power)". I assumed that meant before he fought the Spectre and the end of the comic arc when he obtained the height of his power. Instead, being nearer to the start of the story.

@andromeda101 said: