Cyrodiil in Warhammer Fantasy

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#1  Edited By ParagonNate

The Province of Cyrodiil and all of it's native population replaces The Empire of Warhammer Fantasy, assume no one notices or comments on how different the two empires are. What happens to the Warhammer World?

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Ancient_0f_Days

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The get conquered by the Champion of Cyrodiil

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Cyrodil does not have gunpowder or steam tech correct? Not sure how they stave off chaos corruption either.

WH chaos is much more infectious than daedric influence.

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@paragonnate said:

@ancient_0f_days: Who gets conquered?

Warhammer Empire.......

The two empires aren't fighting. The Cyrodiil empire is replacing the warhammer empire. So what I'm really asking with this thread is, 'what would change if the cyrodiil empire had to face all the threats that the warhammer empire faces?'

@six-deuce The Cyrodiil empire doesn't have gunpowder no, but they do have much more common magic, when compared to Warhammer humans anyway. Having some limited knowledge of magic and even knowing one or two basic spells is pretty common for Imperial citizens, due to the wide spread of the Mages Guild giving easy access to magical knowledge to everyone that wants it. And magic is used in the Imperial Legion as well, if I remember right an Imperial Battlemage is attached to a company as standard, might not be a company will have to go back and check, but the point is that mages are standard and common in the Legion. So common in fact that there's an entire Legion made up of nothing but armed and trained Battlemages, the Shadow Legion.

So, no gunpowder, but lots and lots of magic to compensate.

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Wut

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@paragonnate: Important to remember mages in ES are also weaker. The great pillar of fire spell thing took over a hundred mages to pull off.. a single angry bright wizard could have achieved the same spell. It's a lot like WoW in that comparison. More magic, but less potent.

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@wut said:

@paragonnate: Important to remember mages in ES are also weaker. The great pillar of fire spell thing took over a hundred mages to pull off.. a single angry bright wizard could have achieved the same spell. It's a lot like WoW in that comparison. More magic, but less potent.

@six-deuce Yeah Average Joe Mage is less powerful than Average Joe Wizard, unless we start going into the higher ups of Elder Scrolls magic than they are weaker in terms of how much boom they can throw around. Tons of utility to help compensate though.

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@paragonnate: I understand that this is not empire vs cyrodil....I was trying to establish tech levels. I see two big deficits off the bat for cyrodil. No pre-existing dwarf treaties and no efficient way of combating chaos influence without witch hunters or imperial cults. I'd say they either drown in a waaagh or chaos converts them.

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@paragonnate: I understand that this is not empire vs cyrodil....I was trying to establish tech levels. I see two big deficits off the bat for cyrodil. No pre-existing dwarf treaties and no efficient way of combating chaos influence without witch hunters or imperial cults. I'd say they either drown in a waaagh or chaos converts them.

I wouldn't say they don't have ways to combat Chaos corruption. The Church of the Nine does a fairly thorough and competent job of keeping Daedric worship down, not sure they would do any worse than they already are against Daedric Princes when they go up against Chaos.

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BUMP

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@paragonnate: Warhammer chaos is FAR more pervasive than daedric cult influences....warhammer chaos will mutate entire towns and the only way to curb the spread is exterminatus...not sure imperial government is sufficiently hard nosed to do this. Another problem (perhaps, I do not know for certain) is it takes extremely elite hero units to take down orkish leadership...which is how ork waaaaghs are usually broken up. Does Cyrodil have a hero unit able to take on a powerful ork warboss like sigmar or a sigmar-influenced Franz? Another issue is vampire necromantic intrusion (lahmians in particular here) would be more threatening than the vamps of cyrodil. I tend to think WH empire is greater than Cyrodil Empire...and WH empire barely survives some of its wars with help of the dwarfs. That said, until Franz the WH Empire fought itself alot more than a cyrodil empire would.

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@six-deuce: While I agree Chaos is more invasive then Daedric cults, they aren't usually that bad. Having to kill entire villages is, usually, more because the Witch Hunter is insane then the entire village has mutated. There are plenty of examples of intense chaos corruption that didn't destroy a town or village and, many, members of the town/village never even knew chaos was among them. Beastmen are a far, far, far larger issue then Chaos Cultist as far as security of the interior is concerned. Lahmians are one of those corruption types that are both a negative and a positive. The Lahmians don't seek the collapse of the Empire, in fact, they have helped the Empire against threats without their knowledge. Of course, a megalomaniac like Nef getting a bunch of info, secrets and blackmail on powerful people isn't... exactly positive, but the Lahmians are one of the least problematic vampires because they are very organized, for vampires, and usually pretty sane unlike the Von Carsteins who have a, "If I cannot rule the Empire, I will destroy it!" mindset.

You can kill an Orc Warboss with lots of normal dudes and can crush an Orc army without having to kill the Warboss. Not all Orc WAAAGHS are hundreds of thousand, some are just raids of a few thousand, the hundreds of thousands massive, holy crap that is a lot of Orcs, are massive points in the Empire's history and aren't a 'threat of the week' kind of scenario. But the Empire, and Tamriel, do have some pretty impressive warrior heroes that pop up once in awhile that are easily the match, or greater then, your normal Empire heroes.

In general, the WHF Empire deals with way less corruption and issues then, say, the 40k Imperium does.

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@six-deuce: Warhammer chaos is FAR more pervasive than daedric cult influences....warhammer chaos will mutate entire towns and the only way to curb the spread is exterminatus.

You're mixing up 40K Chaos and Fantasy Chaos, Fantasy Chaos doesn't mutate entire towns that I've seen, and I'm fairly knowledgeable on Fantasy in general imo. Also, kind of hard for The (Warhammer) Empire to Exterminatus a planet, when they don't have space ships, or cyclonic torpedos, or another planet to live on. So no, Fantasy Chaos=/=40K Chaos. Also, methinks you underestimate Sheogorath.

not sure imperial government is sufficiently hard nosed to do this

They won't need to be, because it doesn't exist in Fantasy.

Another problem (perhaps, I do not know for certain) is it takes extremely elite hero units to take down orkish leadership...which is how ork waaaaghs are usually broken up

They're also broken up by being crushed by a superior army.

Cyrodil have a hero unit able to take on a powerful ork warboss like sigmar or a sigmar-influenced Franz?

In terms of physical ability? I'm not entirely sure that there's any named characters like that, but Elder Scrolls warriors in general can reach fairly absurd physical levels of ability if they work hard enough at it. So I'll say that there's a chance that someone will be able to step forward and pull that off eventually.

Another issue is vampire necromantic intrusion (lahmians in particular here) would be more threatening than the vamps of cyrodil.

More dangerous on a one for one basis? Sure. But they aren't exactly going to be doing things that the Imperials haven't seen before, vampires, necromancers, black magic, they've dealt with all of that.

I tend to think WH empire is greater than Cyrodil Empire...and WH empire barely survives some of its wars with help of the dwarfs.

Some really really nasty wars yeah, but day to day the Empire does just fine without Dwarf assistance.

That said, until Franz the WH Empire fought itself alot more than a cyrodil empire would.

Yeah that's true, I can only remember one civil war in the Empire (Elder Scrolls) that was actually large enough to be called a civil war. Having a single nigh unbreakable line of Emperors with divine protection tends to lend itself to stable government.

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@wut said:

@paragonnate: Important to remember mages in ES are also weaker. The great pillar of fire spell thing took over a hundred mages to pull off.. a single angry bright wizard could have achieved the same spell. It's a lot like WoW in that comparison. More magic, but less potent.

WoW HAS potent magic, its just limited to high tiers, rituals or artifacts. The low tiers are nothing to scoff at either, even by WHF standards. Even a painfully average Warlock or Deathknight can kill somebody with a gesture. Mages don't, but thats because of the nature of their magic

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#17  Edited By Six-Deuce

@paragonnate: I am not mixing up 40k and fantasy, there are examples of chaos twisting non-worshipping tribes enmasse, and cultist factions popping up all over the place, be it human elf or whathaveyou. Fantasy chaos is environmental in nature as 40k is, just not on an epic scale. I am not sure where you were getting the planetary bombardment scenario other than taking issue with me making use of a 40k term to make a point but I would hope you actually knew what I meant....burning towns and all inhabitants etc...same principle. Lastly, as the author of this thread you are in a better place to tell me what you meant in this battle. If you only are subjecting Cyrodil fo the lesser invasions then maybe they survive...but any large waaagh they will need more than they have. Lining up a gripload of nuln artillery and bottlenecking the green tide in blackfire pass is oft not enough without the dwarfs coming to the rescue. And if you are claiming cyrodil vamps are as manipulative as the lahmians you should post some sort of evidence. I am positing that neferata may well be coming down out of the mountains and running the place in no time.

If I remember correctly, the closest thing cyrodil would ever have dealt with is a manimarco and he is less powerful correct?...also he kinda ran the place as a puppet state until he got bored and became a lich.

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#18  Edited By Wut

@decaf_wizard: That is why the WoW = ES analogy works so well. Their basic mages are 'meh' as far as destructive capabilities go, and while, yes, they do have some higher end examples, they tend to be fairly rare. ES mages and WoW mages can easily kill a single person, but their magic is, usually, limited to a person or a small group in a small area [again, not counting higher end examples] while your standard Empire Battlemage is more, "That is a nice regiment you got there.... andddd its gone."

@six-deuce Highly doubtful Nef is going anywhere. She is pretty lazy and is paranoid so... she isn't going to expose herself like that for no real reason.

Also, the Empire has fought, and defeated, Orcs long before they had blackpowder and after they were no long Conan the Barbarian level humans. It isn't like the Border Princes, Brets, etc don't fight and beat orcs without blackpowder.

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@wut: I agree there are plenty of instances of smaller waaaaghs being broken up by border princes, but larger waaaaghs go right through them. I also don't know tribal empire is great comparison as there was divine help there. I think your brettonia comparison is pretty good though they have units of superhuman knights and pegasus cavalry. Honestly, I don't see brettonia surviving some of the larger waaaaghs like Vorbad's. Do you see Cyrodillic empire vs Vorbad's waaagh a victory for Cyrodil? I was using the gunpowder point not that it is necessary but that even with that great tool they needed divine interference. Anyways, I could be wrong. The only thing I can say for certain is there are alot more threats in fantasy old world than in cyrodil.

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@six-deuce: I am not mixing up 40k and fantasy, there are examples of chaos twisting non-worshipping tribes enmasse,

Can I get a source for that? I'm curious because I've never seen anything like that happen.

and cultist factions popping up all over the place, be it human elf or whathaveyou.

Cults appearing around the world =/= Chaos reaching out and casually mutating and twisting people to serve them en masse for the lulz.

Fantasy chaos is environmental in nature as 40k is, just not on an epic scale.

So, they aren't the same? Because they're not.

I am not sure where you were getting the planetary bombardment scenario other than taking issue with me making use of a 40k term to make a point but I would hope you actually knew what I meant....burning towns and all inhabitants etc...same principle.

So, you use a term that specifically refers to planetary level destruction and nothing else.....and expect me to not think that that is what you meant? Why? Also, no. Wiping out all life on a planet because absolutely nothing on it can be salvaged is not the same as a witch hunter being over zealous and burning down an entire village, even the innocents living there, just because he feels it is necessary. Chaos cults get put down by mundane means all the time. Regular soldiers and guards walk in and wipe out Chaos cults to the last member on a regular basis, using measures like massacring an entire village is complete overkill and happens, very very rarely.

Lastly, as the author of this thread you are in a better place to tell me what you meant in this battle.

Not sure what you mean here tbh.

If you only are subjecting Cyrodil fo the lesser invasions then maybe they survive...but any large waaagh they will need more than they have.

Except other groups that don't have the exact same goodies that the Empire does have survived just fine for centuries. Hell the Empire didn't have all of it's modern nifty assets for centuries and survived just fine. Waaghs get put down by mundane means all the time. Stop hyping them up to be this civilization ending threat every time they pop up, they aren't.

Lining up a gripload of nuln artillery and bottlenecking the green tide in blackfire pass is oft not enough without the dwarfs coming to the rescue.

Yes. Perfectly mundane means can deal with Orcs Waaaghs, which is what I've been saying.

And if you are claiming cyrodil vamps are as manipulative as the lahmians you should post some sort of evidence.

I'm not claiming that. I'm claiming that the (Elder Scrolls) Empire is perfectly aware that vampires and the like exist, so finding them and killing them wouldn't be some completely unknown thing for them. Also don't underestimate ES vampires, the Count of Skingrad managed to maneuver and manipulate his way into power, all without anyone knowing what he was until he had established a solid power base, to such an extent that it was nigh impossible to remove him without a war.

I am positing that neferata may well be coming down out of the mountains and running the place in no time.

I....highly doubt that. She hasn't moved from her home in a very long time for any reason. No, she's perfectly comfortable ruling from the shadows in her mountain. Why settle for one kingdom when you can manipulate many? Also, her conquest of the (Warhammer) Empire has never happened, why the hell would she change her M.O. now?

If I remember correctly, the closest thing cyrodil would ever have dealt with is a manimarco and he is less powerful correct?...also he kinda ran the place as a puppet state until he got bored and became a lich.

That was in the Second Era, during the last days of a different Empire, the current Empire's predecessor. But there have been conflicts and wars in the Empire's history, they just aren't common due to being lead by Septims, who possess a literal Divine Right to rule as well as a number of other abilities due to being Dragonborn IIRC. Hell, Uriel Septim had, at the bare minimum, some form of fore-site, he foresaw many things, up to and including his own death. So getting people like that off of the throne or challenging their rule at all is damned difficult.

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Wut

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@six-deuce: What divine protection? Sigmar lost his duel against the warboss, it was his men who saved him from it. Even more to the point, Sigmar left pretty soon after establishing the empire and it isn't like the second he brought the tribes together they got blackpowded.

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Paytience

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Both my Dragonborn and my Vestige are Imperials.

Therefore, Cyrodil wins.

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Certain ES empires of certain ages could do a lot of damage. The current cyrodill empire would all serve chaos in a heartbeat and pray for mercy to gods who ignore them.

But if we're talking 2-3 era Dunmeri, then the tribunal would wreck some things.

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@paytience: You stop that, you stop that right now. :P

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@drache64: .................why? Why would the Empire convert to chaos worship an masse?

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@wut: Franz channelled Sigmar when he was basically defeated after praying to him. Sigmar healed his wounds, gave him superhuman strength, and gave a supernatural morale boost to his troops. This was at the end of the third battle of blackfire pass.

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#27  Edited By Wut

@six-deuce And? They weren't given a divine boost when facing the paunch. Or against the slaughterer. Or Grimgor who runs wild in the empire every spring. Apologies for faulty tags, stupid phone isn't tagging properly.

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@paragonnate: @paragonnate: I am gonna be optimistic and say we are talking passed each other here. When I used the phrase exterminatus I was not claiming fantasy could wipe out a planet via orbital bombardment...I was using an analogy...also it is not entirely a 40k term https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/exterminatus Chaos mutates, and spreads all kind of ways in WHF. Plagues, spells, or via cultist tricking you into following the dark gods before you even know it. WHunters tend to kill everyone who is involved and 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon. I don't know if Cyrodil empire reacts as fervently anti-chaos to that virulent influence but if you think otherwise cool beans. Other than that you seem to just want to create a thread and argue a side....mundane weapons destroy orcs? Straw man argument. It doesn't even address the point I raised, that there are waaaaghs that threatened the existence of an empire with tools of war that cyrodil does not possess. It may have helped if you gave a time period also...if you are subbing cyrodil in right before a major waaagh or chaos invasion...or skaven attack then that is a different answer perhaps than if placed in a less threatening time period.

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@wut: I didn't read those books but if the wh empire did get a boost then it bolsters my point. Empire struggles against the tougher (Vorbad, Grimgor, Azhag etc) waaaaghs or chaos invasions for that matter and has alot of tools (steam tech, demigriffs, rifles and cannons, divine help). Maybe Cyrodil has some hidden force I am not aware of and pulls this off...from what I can tell they could be perhaps natural allies with bretonnia and they could get some help from the lady.....a new crop of questing knights would help.

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@six-deuce: ... Demis, Steam Tank were not used against the Paunch. The Paunch wrecked them into next week even after his WAAAGH got much smaller after taking Nuln and growing lazy and just camping in it for a long time. The Empire only has a dozen steam tanks, it isn't like they are fielding them in mass, they are relics that are barely ever fielded. I have no idea where this idea of No Gunpowder = You Wrecked is coming from. There is a long stretch of time between when Sigmar left his fledgling Empire and they got gunpowder where they endured just fine against chaos and greenskins.

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Six-Deuce

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@wut: I have not said no gunpowder = wrecked man, I said there have been waaaghs that even with gunpowder they WHF Imps) almost got wrecked. Not all waaaaghs are equal and the big ones are huge challenges even with hax tools and units that cyrodil doesn't have. Gunpowder is only one example of a tool that WHF has that cyrodil does not. Maybe I am communicating poorly...I feel like I am being coherent.

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@six-deuce: And those WAAAGHs didn't cause the collapse of the Empire even when it was fragmented and under craptastic leadership like the Paunch. Because the Orcs don't actively seek the fall of Empires. They burn and rampage across a section and that is.. usually it. They burn a swath of land across your lands and then bugger off to fight someone else when it appears the fight has been kicked out of you. Grom did this, Grimgor does this, we don't know about the Slaughterer or Gorbad because they were stopped mid-rampage and the Cyrodiil Empire is certainly large enough to be given that same level of 'too big too fail' to an Orc WAAAGH.

Unless its the current, shadow of its former self, Cryodiil Empire replacing the Empire as of the End Times, it should do just fine. Even the last Great War against Chaos and their Everchosen was more the meatshield Kislev being smacked around like a redheaded stepchild and the Empire showing up to save the day.

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@wut: Just like to hop in for a sec and say that this isn't the entire Septim Empire, just Cyrodiil. Also, I've thought about it and decided to place it during the reign of Uriel Septim, the emperor from Oblivion, so at the empires height in terms of power and knowledge.

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Wut

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@paragonnate: Oh... that.. isn't good. Any idea how large Cyrodiil is? Because the Empire is roughly the size of Europe. [You know what's weird? Looking around, I don't see any Sigmar vs Talos threads which seems crazy... both humans that built massive empires and were later venerated as Gods.... Yet... no... vs threads... so weird].

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Six-Deuce

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#36  Edited By Six-Deuce

@wut: honestly I hadn't considered the point you are making about green tides rolling through and exiting. They do tend to act differently depending on the terrain they are rolling through (couple exceptions like Strygos). Cyrodil have much subterranean features? If there is not much there then that should provide some time before Gobbos or Ratmen move in. Thanks, you gave me something to investigate on my break time!

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Wut

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@six-deuce: Yeah, but gotta remember the Strygos wasn't all that large, it was from the Black Gulf shores to Mad Dog Pass... so.. pretty much around the size of the Border Princes and due to their society, they were more a city-state controlling large amounts of land, ruled from Morgheim, then a true kingdom that has spread out towns and cities. So when the Orcs hit, and then the constant human attacks continued [Cause Nef is a jerk], it crumbled. But, from what I recall, the Orcs hit Morgheim, sacked it, killed Ushoran and... that was about it. But Cracktoof didn't go onto a never ending rampage. [Although, they changed this a few times... some say that Ushoran built his kingdom from the ashes of Mourkain and others that Ushoran usurped Mourkain from Kadon]

Well, I mean, just from Oblivion which is in Cyrodiil, there are tunnels and ancient dwarven ruins and what not, but nothing to the same extent that have been dug out under the Empire, but those probably get dug in short order by the Skaven anyways.

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@wut: I had no idea the Empire was that big. I always thought it was Germany sized or maybe a bit bigger, given that it IS fantasy Germany with fantasy France to the west and everything.

As for Crodiil size

......um not sure. There's no cannon statement on the size and fan calculations based on in game distanced and comments found in in game books can place it from anywhere between Alaska to smaller than states on the east coast.

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Wut

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@paragonnate: Yeah, its surprisingly big. If you pull open a true scale map of Europe with a handy miles scale [which is usually 0 to 300 miles if you use miles] and a map of the Empire, it is also in 0 to 300 miles and when you scrunch Europe together and measure.. the Empire is fairly close [Europe is still larger especially if you use more eastern European countries as well]. It is waaaay bigger then it seems because they 'scrunch' it up on the global map while Europe is stretched out.

Alaska wouldn't be too bad.

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Six-Deuce

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@paragonnate: more holy Roman empire than Germany I always felt.

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echostarlord117

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I don't think they'd be as effective as the WHF Empire due to less potent magic and technology.

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Six-Deuce

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#42  Edited By Six-Deuce

@wut: but in regards to the orks moving in and setting up shop in the territory of Strygos and not just wrecking it and moving on to other challenges. Maybe something about the terrain? The badlands are a convenient place to stage invasions of the border kingdoms or the southern dwarf holds I suppose.

I always liked orks...kinda getting back into WH and 40K now that my son is old enough it ask what the deal is with my old models lol.

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@six-deuce: Eh, hard to say. They didn't sit in all of it as some parts were in the Border Princes. Something about the Badlands, I suppose. Grom camped out in Nuln for quite some time before being convinced to bugger off to Ulthuan.

Been an Ork and O&G player for.... 13ish years now, so I'm right there with you for the love of the Green.

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ParagonNate

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#44  Edited By ParagonNate

@wut: What's your take on it? Do they get wiped out?

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Wut

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@paragonnate: Assume we handwave any population issues and landmass issues, they should do just fine. Really depends on when the Empire is teleported over.

Right after sigmar? During the start of the Vampire Wars? The Great War? The Black Plague? etc

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ParagonNate

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@wut: Shortly before the Vampire Wars and Vlads shenanigans I think would be good

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Wut

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@paragonnate: So.. how does that work? A plague still spread across a large portion of the Blackwood/Leyawiin area or something?

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ParagonNate

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@wut: Remind me, was the plague a natural disease or was it more von Carstein shenanigans. I genuinely can't remember.

Either way I'd say that the plague exists, but the ES mages and priests are going to combat it like they would any other disease. Likely with lots of magic and tons of mundane medicine as well. So whether or not the plague will be as devastating will be up for debate.

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Wut

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@paragonnate: I don't believe they ever say, but its one of those, 'It just so happens to appear when Vlad arrives, it just so happens to only be happening in Sly, it just so happens to create a bunch of undead and it just so happens to disappear when Vlad raises his undead army' kinda thing, so... Carstein shenanigans.

So, in that case, honestly, if it wasn't for Manny, Vlad would likely win. A reason he did so well was the Empire was in a civil war, but the Cyrodiil Empire is also supppper divided since most of their Empire is... just.. gone and the biggest ones are their 'meat', Hammerfell and Skyrim. I wouldn't say they are economic 'meat', but very, very, very important militarily as their best legions come from those two [which makes sense, with Redguards and Nords being the strongest martial races [Yes, yes, orcs to, but they don't really have the population center to produce lots of legions of just orcs]] and during the Great War, the Hammerfell/Skyrim fronts were the only fronts the Empire really won on [I think they lost Hammerfell at first, IIRC, and the Redguards won after a guerrilla war] and the legions from those two places are the only thing that saved the Empire when they liberated the capital.

However, Vlad still has Mannfred... who... his biggest thing is stabbing someone in the back a step from victory even if it is a stupid thing to do, so he will still lose because of Mannfred, but would need to see how the Empire recovers from that.