Cyclops vs. Wolverine

@god_spawn said:

I love this fight, I really do, but to be honest Schism isn't gonna do it justice with how it's turning out right now. In a straight up fight I'd lean more towards Cykes, he has shown more times than Logan has dodged, that he can tag him and he has the power to put Wolverine down and he is the better tactician. Wolverine can win if he brings it in close, he is a better fighter than Cyclops and does physically outclass him. This fight is circumstantial IMO.

I agree with this.

I am more and more impressed with Cyclop's hand to hand skills lately as well. I truly believe Marvel is working him up to be a real contender in the hand to hand arena within the MU.

Cyclops will become one of the 10 greatest martial artists in the Marvel Universe. There, I said it.

Cyclops

Bump.

Vouile

Wolverine should lose

@EpitomeofCool said:

in schism idk why his blasts didnt make him go flying....

Artistic interpretation getting hit with his blasts should be the equivalent of being rammed by a pole with super strength and speed behind it, hitting his hand like that should have sheared the flesh and thrown him back but then we wouldn't have had Cyke and Wolverine trade blows as a Sentinel hovered overhead.

Cyclops.

@god_spawn said:

Cyclops.

@god_spawn said:

Cyclops.

wolverine unless cyclops uses his ricochet and tactical skills

@god_spawn said:

Cyclops.

Wolverine.

@Super_SoldierXII:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@god_spawn said:

I love this fight, I really do, but to be honest Schism isn't gonna do it justice with how it's turning out right now. In a straight up fight I'd lean more towards Cykes, he has shown more times than Logan has dodged, that he can tag him and he has the power to put Wolverine down and he is the better tactician. Wolverine can win if he brings it in close, he is a better fighter than Cyclops and does physically outclass him. This fight is circumstantial IMO.

I agree with this.

I am more and more impressed with Cyclop's hand to hand skills lately as well. I truly believe Marvel is working him up to be a real contender in the hand to hand arena within the MU.

@Morpheus_ said:

@cracks said:

" @Morpheus_:No. In a fair fight, Cyclops should be able to easily blast Wolverine away. Then Cyclops will continue to blast Logan until he gets knocked out. %Pr "

A fair fight is a fight that takes place in an open field. A fair fight is also a fight that takes place in a dark alley. Too bad Cyclops doesn't win against Wolverine in both locations. I know a bit better, since I actually made the thread, with a little more depth than just "Who wins?".

This is why.

Location is everything. Cyclops only wins against Logan if he has some distance or if Logan is just bating him into reacting then taking the lumps with a sly grin ... willing to eat an optic or three for the sheer pleasure of having gotten under Scot's skin.

@god_spawn said:

@Super_SoldierXII:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@god_spawn said:

I love this fight, I really do, but to be honest Schism isn't gonna do it justice with how it's turning out right now. In a straight up fight I'd lean more towards Cykes, he has shown more times than Logan has dodged, that he can tag him and he has the power to put Wolverine down and he is the better tactician. Wolverine can win if he brings it in close, he is a better fighter than Cyclops and does physically outclass him. This fight is circumstantial IMO.

I agree with this.

I am more and more impressed with Cyclop's hand to hand skills lately as well. I truly believe Marvel is working him up to be a real contender in the hand to hand arena within the MU.

Only agree if Cyclops has some distance. Location / circumstance is everything in this fight. Scott has one chance, he need the space and time to make it count. Wolverine not holding back ... would end with Scott dead.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@cracks said:

" @Morpheus_:No. In a fair fight, Cyclops should be able to easily blast Wolverine away. Then Cyclops will continue to blast Logan until he gets knocked out. %Pr "

A fair fight is a fight that takes place in an open field. A fair fight is also a fight that takes place in a dark alley. Too bad Cyclops doesn't win against Wolverine in both locations. I know a bit better, since I actually made the thread, with a little more depth than just "Who wins?".

This is why.

Location is everything. Cyclops only wins against Logan if he has some distance or if Logan is just bating him into reacting then taking the lumps with a sly grin ... willing to eat an optic or three for the sheer pleasure of having gotten under Scot's skin.

One Optic blast should realistically tear Logan's ligaments apart, or he could simply blow out his midsection below the ribs and cripple him. Either way one big blast or one well aimed blast is all it takes, he has a good power set for taking down Logan.

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@cracks said:

" @Morpheus_:No. In a fair fight, Cyclops should be able to easily blast Wolverine away. Then Cyclops will continue to blast Logan until he gets knocked out. %Pr "

A fair fight is a fight that takes place in an open field. A fair fight is also a fight that takes place in a dark alley. Too bad Cyclops doesn't win against Wolverine in both locations. I know a bit better, since I actually made the thread, with a little more depth than just "Who wins?".

This is why.

Location is everything. Cyclops only wins against Logan if he has some distance or if Logan is just bating him into reacting then taking the lumps with a sly grin ... willing to eat an optic or three for the sheer pleasure of having gotten under Scot's skin.

One Optic blast should realistically tear Logan's ligaments apart, or he could simply blow out his midsection below the ribs and cripple him. Either way one big blast or one well aimed blast is all it takes, he has a good power set for taking down Logan.

Wolverine's 'ligaments' don't blow apart.

Wolverine's fought on with worse injuries than those you've listed.

Given the optics are concussive in nature, it's more 'realistic' that Wolverine would simply go flying off as though hit by Hulk.

But first and foremost, realistically, in close quarters and given Wolverine's purported power & skill set, Wolverine should react with a claw swipe faster than Scott could cry uncle- he would be the one disemboweled. He doesn't because Marvel kinda frowns upon killing off their A-listers. Go figure. As Wolverine's the one with the healing factor, he tends to be the chump taking the lumps and more often than not, when he shouldn't be - purported skill set be damned.

Most writers just don't know how to properly treat the character.

@Super_SoldierXII: Writers will justifibly ignore this for the sake of the story but if Wolverine was hit by a punch of someone with super strength his head would come clean of his shoulders. If his ligaments where covered in metal he would be incapable of actually moving.

Both have incredibly high reaction Scott having tagged people with superhuman reflexes, it just makes more sense that Cyke gets the first shot in as his attack method requires a lot less effort.

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Writers will justifibly ignore this for the sake of the story but if Wolverine was hit by a punch of someone with super strength his head would come clean of his shoulders. If his ligaments where covered in metal he would be incapable of actually moving.

They haven't ignored it. They've had super strong foes try to rip his limbs off like Ba'al and the Hulk so that topic has had attention. Logan's head isn't going anywhere when Scott blasts him and trying to add real world anatomy to it is pointless and futile.

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Writers will justifibly ignore this for the sake of the story but if Wolverine was hit by a punch of someone with super strength his head would come clean of his shoulders. If his ligaments where covered in metal he would be incapable of actually moving.

Both have incredibly high reaction Scott having tagged people with superhuman reflexes, it just makes more sense that Cyke gets the first shot in as his attack method requires a lot less effort.

This is comics so we need to address such things with more of a creative and less scientific prerogative. Here's what comics have to say as to why Hulk cannot tear him apart, and why body parts don't go flying everywhere when he gets caught in explosions;

In short, the adamantium covering Wolverine's entire infrastructure includes joints and ligaments without hampering them or their natural functions (notice Wolverine's skeleton remains intact throughout the handful of times he's been reduced to said skeleton). Joining to bone and sinew which created a new adamantium compound that does not interfere with bone, ligament and sinews functions. Bone is, in essence, sinew in any event - you cannot coat bone with solid metal anymore than you can joints and ligaments - creators went around this by stating the metal is molecularly bonded. His structure in its entirety is unbreakable, not rock hard and inflexible.

And even if Scott gets off the first shot, Wolverine has dodged Scott's optics plenty of times. Daredevil himself remarked how Wolverine dodges bullets point blank with ease. He's even sensed Scott's optics a split second before they struck saving Storm's life. So given both are fighting to the best of their abilities ... unless there's starting distance, Scott's a dead man.

Scott has a change if it starts at a distance.

@sevennames27 said:

Cyclops for the win.

@Dernman said:

Scott has a change if it starts at a distance.

Oh absolutely. If there's distance, I'd say Scott would be playing pinball with a short, and very angry, canuck.

@god_spawn said:

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Writers will justifibly ignore this for the sake of the story but if Wolverine was hit by a punch of someone with super strength his head would come clean of his shoulders. If his ligaments where covered in metal he would be incapable of actually moving.

They haven't ignored it. They've had super strong foes try to rip his limbs off like Ba'al and the Hulk so that topic has had attention. Logan's head isn't going anywhere when Scott blasts him and trying to add real world anatomy to it is pointless and futile.

Not the idea of trying to rip him apart, for a character as old as him I'm sure the amount of ways that people have attempted to kill him has been a practical smorgasbord of variety. Just that ripping him apart should be no harder than any other man. Many posters have made the same point when he has gone up against foes with super strength before and not only is it basic anatomy it's just common sense. His major organs are still protected what more do you want?

Scott knows Logan too well, he has stated many times, and shown it also on many occasions, that he does have tactics in mind already for how to take out each member of the X-Men.

Scott knows he can not let up on Wolverine, he knows how tough he is and what it would take.

If I was Scott I would blast him to the ground and just keep the beam on him until it ran dry in about 12 hours, by that time he is nothing but a very deeply buried skeleton. You can not heal when there is not room around your bones to form tissue on.

The problem being is connecting with that first shot, Logan knows Scott too and has some really good reflexes.

Scott gets sent to intensive care and possibly loses a body part or 2 but pulls a win 6/10.

@Dextersinister said:

@god_spawn said:

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Writers will justifibly ignore this for the sake of the story but if Wolverine was hit by a punch of someone with super strength his head would come clean of his shoulders. If his ligaments where covered in metal he would be incapable of actually moving.

They haven't ignored it. They've had super strong foes try to rip his limbs off like Ba'al and the Hulk so that topic has had attention. Logan's head isn't going anywhere when Scott blasts him and trying to add real world anatomy to it is pointless and futile.

Not the idea of trying to rip him apart, for a character as old as him I'm sure the amount of ways that people have attempted to kill him has been a practical smorgasbord of variety. Just that ripping him apart should be no harder than any other man. Many posters have made the same point when he has gone up against foes with super strength before and not only is it basic anatomy it's just common sense. His major organs are still protected what more do you want?

I already delineated how comics explained why Wolverine does not, and will not, get blown to bits or torn apart. He cannot be. It's canon. It makes about as much scientific sense as shooting laser beams out of your eyes. But there it is nonetheless.

@Super_SoldierXII: Cyclops doesn't shoot laser beams =O. Optic blasts, son.

@MisterWhisper said:

Scott knows Logan too well, he has stated many times, and shown it also on many occasions, that he does have tactics in mind already for how to take out each member of the X-Men.

Scott knows he can not let up on Wolverine, he knows how tough he is and what it would take.

If I was Scott I would blast him to the ground and just keep the beam on him until it ran dry in about 12 hours, by that time he is nothing but a very deeply buried skeleton. You can not heal when there is not room around your bones to form tissue on.

The problem being is connecting with that first shot, Logan knows Scott too and has some really good reflexes.

Scott gets sent to intensive care and possibly loses a body part or 2 but pulls a win 6/10.

Xavier files already state and affirm what it would take to kill Logan; decapitation coupled with keeping his head removed from his body for a prolonged period.

Adamantium makes that method impossible. Scott devised a way that required Magneto ripping the metal from him while Namor is close on hand ready to tear off his head shortly thereafter.

Scott's optics alone would temporarily take Logan out ... but they would not permanently kill him.

Realistically, Schism notwithstanding, if Wolverine tags Scott but once, I doubt a fighter of his skill would be mucking about with cosmetic strikes unless he means to. He wants Slim dead with a claw swipe, he'd be dead.

@Super_SoldierXII: That is what I have never understood, it is not super hard to kill him. Just do not leave him anywhere for the new flesh to form.

Burying is simply the easiest, he can not heal if there is nowhere for the flesh to come back.

@MisterWhisper said:

@Super_SoldierXII: That is what I have never understood, it is not super hard to kill him. Just do not leave him anywhere for the new flesh to form.

Burying is simply the easiest, he can not heal if there is nowhere for the flesh to come back.

I really don't see why not ...

Wolverine could aviod if not all of Cyclop's Optic beams so the way i see it, who ever tires first loses. that means Cyclops.

Optic Blast!

@SwordandShields said:

Wolverine could aviod if not all of Cyclop's Optic beams so the way i see it, who ever tires first loses. that means Cyclops.

Cyclops will undoubtedly tag Wolverine. He's got the accuracy and range on his side.

That and, worse comes to worst, he can do this.

Wolverine For The Win!!!

@JediXMan:

We have to assume they're in fighting distance. Which means Wolverine can tag him as well. And since when does Scott open up with that kind of blast? Wolverine out for blood would not give him the chance. As much as Wolverine wouldn't soak a blast like that and remain standing, so too would Scott drop with one punch claws out.

With no significant starting distance advantage, Cyclops loses this one.

Cyclops.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Dextersinister said:

@god_spawn said:

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Writers will justifibly ignore this for the sake of the story but if Wolverine was hit by a punch of someone with super strength his head would come clean of his shoulders. If his ligaments where covered in metal he would be incapable of actually moving.

They haven't ignored it. They've had super strong foes try to rip his limbs off like Ba'al and the Hulk so that topic has had attention. Logan's head isn't going anywhere when Scott blasts him and trying to add real world anatomy to it is pointless and futile.

Not the idea of trying to rip him apart, for a character as old as him I'm sure the amount of ways that people have attempted to kill him has been a practical smorgasbord of variety. Just that ripping him apart should be no harder than any other man. Many posters have made the same point when he has gone up against foes with super strength before and not only is it basic anatomy it's just common sense. His major organs are still protected what more do you want?

I already delineated how comics explained why Wolverine does not, and will not, get blown to bits or torn apart. He cannot be. It's canon. It makes about as much scientific sense as shooting laser beams out of your eyes. But there it is nonetheless.

No you never explained how it wouldn't work you just said somebody tried to pull him apart before. A writer can write whatever he wants but if it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense does not trump common sense on the matter. Otherwise canon would mean all it takes is an armbar to restrain the Silver Surfer.

He also said to an alternative dimension Wolverine that he would just aim at his eye sockets, also if he where to hit him with a big blast it would shred almost every bit of flesh off his bones and if he even survived that he could just walk up to the near fleshless skeleton and smear his brain against the back of his skull.

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Dextersinister said:

@god_spawn said:

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Writers will justifibly ignore this for the sake of the story but if Wolverine was hit by a punch of someone with super strength his head would come clean of his shoulders. If his ligaments where covered in metal he would be incapable of actually moving.

They haven't ignored it. They've had super strong foes try to rip his limbs off like Ba'al and the Hulk so that topic has had attention. Logan's head isn't going anywhere when Scott blasts him and trying to add real world anatomy to it is pointless and futile.

Not the idea of trying to rip him apart, for a character as old as him I'm sure the amount of ways that people have attempted to kill him has been a practical smorgasbord of variety. Just that ripping him apart should be no harder than any other man. Many posters have made the same point when he has gone up against foes with super strength before and not only is it basic anatomy it's just common sense. His major organs are still protected what more do you want?

I already delineated how comics explained why Wolverine does not, and will not, get blown to bits or torn apart. He cannot be. It's canon. It makes about as much scientific sense as shooting laser beams out of your eyes. But there it is nonetheless.

No you never explained how it wouldn't work you just said somebody tried to pull him apart before. A writer can write whatever he wants but if it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense does not trump common sense on the matter. Otherwise canon would mean all it takes is an armbar to restrain the Silver Surfer.

He also said to an alternative dimension Wolverine that he would just aim at his eye sockets, also if he where to hit him with a big blast it would shred almost every bit of flesh off his bones and if he even survived that he could just walk up to the near fleshless skeleton and smear his brain against the back of his skull.

Dwayne Mcduffie the writer of the black panther arm bar stated surfer let black panther put him in a arm bar and that if surfer wanted out he could have gotten out. And there is a difference between something inconsistent and something that is consistent. Wolverine isn't getting his head blown off.

@Dextersinister:

No you never explained how it wouldn't work you just said somebody tried to pull him apart before.

To which I say, please read below;

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Writers will justifibly ignore this for the sake of the story but if Wolverine was hit by a punch of someone with super strength his head would come clean of his shoulders. If his ligaments where covered in metal he would be incapable of actually moving.

Both have incredibly high reaction Scott having tagged people with superhuman reflexes, it just makes more sense that Cyke gets the first shot in as his attack method requires a lot less effort.

This is comics so we need to address such things with more of a creative and less scientific prerogative. Here's what comics have to say as to why Hulk cannot tear him apart, and why body parts don't go flying everywhere when he gets caught in explosions;

In short, the adamantium covering Wolverine's entire infrastructure includes joints and ligaments without hampering them or their natural functions (notice Wolverine's skeleton remains intact throughout the handful of times he's been reduced to said skeleton). Joining to bone and sinew which created a new adamantium compound that does not interfere with bone, ligament and sinews functions. Bone is, in essence, sinew in any event - you cannot coat bone with solid metal anymore than you can joints and ligaments - creators went around this by stating the metal is molecularly bonded. His structure in its entirety is unbreakable, not rock hard and inflexible.

And even if Scott gets off the first shot, Wolverine has dodged Scott's optics plenty of times. Daredevil himself remarked how Wolverine dodges bullets point blank with ease. He's even sensed Scott's optics a split second before they struck saving Storm's life. So given both are fighting to the best of their abilities ... unless there's starting distance, Scott's a dead man.

Incidentally, the new type of true adamantium developed upon bonding it to 616 Logan's infrastructure, is known as 'beta' adamantium. It's an adamantium alloy that adapted and bonded at the molecular level to the cells of Logan's bone, ligament and sinew - explaining why he doesn't get torn apart or blown apart or why his head doesn't instantly fly off his body when Hulk smacks him around.

Please stop touting how this is not so when A) it's canon, B) dozens upon dozens (if not hundreds) of showings support this and C) we've explained it to you a few times (you seem hell bent on ignoring and reading what you want to read).

If Wolverine gets torn apart, according to you, because him not doesn't make any sense, then Superman can't fly according to me simply because I say there is no scientific way that should be possible. Time to move on methinks ...

@Super_SoldierXII: Superman's abilities are based on universal rules, this invulnerability your giving him is based on the writer not thinking that deeply about it because in comic these things aren't that important. If that beta adamantium crap is true why didn't you say that in the first place?

@Dextersinister said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Superman's abilities are based on universal rules, this invulnerability your giving him is based on the writer not thinking that deeply about it because in comic these things aren't that important. If that beta adamantium crap is true why didn't you say that in the first place?

I did.

And the funny part is, I re-posted again just a few hours ago when exactly I had originally told you so above. Not my problem if you don't read through the first time (or the second). The only 'term' I didn't spell out the first time is 'beta'. Everything else is clearly stated (including the fact a NEW adamantium compound was created in bonding the alloy to his bones and infrastructure).

Of course it's 'crap' because you deign it so right? More probable it's because it shows continuity proves you wrong in your assumptions. I think we're done here, and I think the point adequately impressed that Logan does not get 'torn apart' in regular 616 continuity.

Prior to his upgrade from Apocalypse, I'd give the fight to Cyke. Now, Logan takes it.

@Super_SoldierXII: So you did. My bad I must have assumed you where saying that adamantium can coat ligaments and they are able to move fine. Would have been better and made canonical sense if they had used the material Omega Red is covered in for the flexible parts.

Cyclops would do this and more

@darkbeam: 616 Wolverine has survived worst. Also, current Cyclop's powers are screwy so it's an even bigger stomp for Wolvie now.

@sgu823: I don't know the context of that scan but if he is reduced to a skeleton the fights over.

@sgu823: You do realize that Wolverine is left as a skeleton and is defeated?

@dextersinister and @norrinboltagonprime21 This was Wolverine after his encounter with Nitro. The OP said that it's three battles. A) One of the fighters is Ko'ed. B) One of them dies. C) One of them dies twice (what?). The point of that scan is to show that Wolverine can come back from being incinerated. If I recall correctly, he came back after a few hours of this happening and took on Nitro again (and cut off his hand, I think...).

So yeah. Anything other than a full Optic blast probably wouldn't even hit Logan since he's dodged them point blank at one time and even felt the pressure of one come from behind and dodged it another time. Only a full on optic blast would Ko Wolverine. But I'm doubt it would kill him. And since Scott gets exhausted after a full Optic blast, Wolverine would get him in the end. Also, current Cyclop can't even aim his optic blast anymore, how's he gonna hit Wolvie? Cyclops is as good as dead.

@sgu823: Even if it we were using current Cyclops (we aren't since the thread was made a few years, so Pre-AvX Cyclops), his blast still did this by accident. Good chance if they acted screwy he would inadvertently rip him to a skeleton. Still, he seems to have gotten better control in CatXF.

@sgu823: He's been tagged by them more often than he's dodged them.

Scott doesn't tire out like he used to, he did a full blast against the super sentinel then had the juice to tango with Logan putting himself at a disadvantage by keeping within melee range so he could prevent him from triggering the bomb and then was capable of ripping parts off the super sentinel afterwards.

Scott has lost control in that his eyes have more power than ever as his original visor couldn't contain the blasts as he has shown excellent aim in Cable and the X-Force with the new visor. He is also has very intimate knowledge on the abilities of the x-men so if he can nuke the area where Wolverine stands and he will survive it then without PIS or bystanders current Cyke would do just that.

@dextersinister: I've read all of the new Uncanny X-Men and never once was it stated that his blast "got stronger" it's simply implied that he can no longer directly aim them. Anyways, I've already conceded that Cyke could just nuke the place. He just can't kill Logan. The last two battles from the OP are to the death and Wolverine would eventually win.

Agreed.