@the_magister: The thing is that John can be fluid when he wants to be. He has a very versatile fighting style and knowledge bank from several decades of training. I get the sense that he PREFERS the physical approach, because he can use his immense physicality to just body any person in his way. If John is ABLE to come over and just bodyslam you, you can bet that he will because that ensures you are out of the game. But it requires a high degree of skill in order to use his physicality that effectively, especially when engaged with multiple opponents. It's just a difference of fighting styles, it doesn't make John less skilled, his results speak for themselves.
But when he faces somebody who he can not easily overpower, he easily shifts to a more fluid and technical style. You don't think he could defeat two cops as "fluidly" and "efficiently" as Grant did? Try three Ghosts.
The transport van feat is vastly surpassed by the gif against the Ghosts I posted in my first post. Every one of those soldiers were armed too, you know. John had to control their firearms while fighting just like Grant did. Pay attention to the choreography. The difference is his opponents were better trained and there were more of them.
Even statements-wise Ward has in fact taken on armies like that, this is implied in Season 1 itself.
Nondescript statements and legends just don't match up with Diggle on-screen actually fighting an army of ninja... and he and Malcolm defeated all of them almost singlehandedly. Laurel had her hands full with just three the whole time, and Katana took care of Maseo. It was Malcolm and John running around the battlefield and cleaning out the mass numbers.
If you can take an amazing feat from John which Grant has never actually replicated, and just wave it off as "oh yeah it was vaguely implied four seasons ago that Grant could totally do that too" then I can use Diggle's tie-in feat where he killed over a dozen Taliban, who were the most ruthless fighters he had ever seen, without any weapons and after being stabbed in the back with a hatchet, all before a scarf that was thrown in the air could hit the ground. He did this on-panel, then the narrator explicitly stated that he did this. Unlike Ward and his nondescript rumors. So no matter what, John is outperforming Grant by a large amount.
Gallery
There's really nothing to say about the rest of your feats. Ghosts are a lot more dangerous than any normal special forces, and ninja are ninja. If those three men were assigned to protecting Von than maybe I can assume they were on par with Ghosts, but not better, and that's a compliment since Ghosts have actual feats in addition to reputation, and Diggle took out a lot more than just three Ghosts. He could take out three Ghosts AT ONCE. Grant took out three equivalents one by one. I don't watch AoS, but I'm not seeing what puts Grant on par with John...
Meanwhile the feat against Malick's soldiers is not as good as John's showing in Nanda Parbet. HYDRA is not any better than the League. So what did Grant do? He shot three of them then defeated two more in CQC. He was very tactical about it and it's a well produced battle, but Diggle can tactically dodge bullets while in gunfights too. It's not an over-the-moon feat.
And besides the reaction time and environmental awareness he displayed by immediately taking cover from the bullets and then shooting under the table, Grant did not do anything special in that scene. Again he just shot three soldiers then beat two in CQC. Diggle shot a lot more ninja and beat a lot more in CQC as well.
Like you said, Diggle is a soldier who has proven capable of taking ninjas. But Ward isn't a soldier, he is consistently referred to in-universe as a specialist. Maria Hill, who has witnessed the likes of Cap and Widow fight, gave Ward the highest possible scores in combat by SHIELD's standards.
What does being a specialist have to do with anything? His skillset is exactly the same as John's. H2H, guns, military tactics, and stealth. John just has much better feats in every area. John was a Master Sergeant in the U.S. military before joining Oliver, and joining Oliver only gave him access to even better training and gave him experience saving the city, then the country, and even the whole world a couple times. He's fought not only ninja, but super soldiers just like Grant has, and 8 foot tall aliens. He's obviously not a SHIELD agent, but his wife was the highest ranking agent in ARGUS and she now runs ARGUS. She got beaten by a single League foot soldier, the likes of which John was steamrolling. ARGUS is SHIELD's equivalent and ARGUS was massively outclassed by the League so...
The thing is that John can be fluid when he wants to be. He has a very versatile fighting style and knowledge bank from several decades of training. I get the sense that he PREFERS the physical approach, because he can use his immense physicality to just body any person in his way. If John is ABLE to come over and just bodyslam you, you can bet that he will because that ensures you are out of the game. But it requires a high degree of skill in order to use his physicality that effectively, especially when engaged with multiple opponents. It's just a difference of fighting styles, it doesn't make John less skilled, his results speak for themselves.
Ok. Those two gifs are both impressive, but so far they aren't anything Ward can't do. Is there any actual proof that HIVE is superior to special forces besides the implication that they are meant to be a counterpart to the League? And what makes the League so well trained besides Sara claiming that they make spec ops look like kindergartners despite feats suggesting otherwise?
SHIELD and HYDRA are much more fleshed out in the MCU. We see what a STRIKE team is capable of in TWS during the Lemurian Star sequence, we see SHIELD/HYDRA agents like Agent 33 take on Melinda May in CQC, we see Antoine Triplett (an agent who is established not to be on the same level as Ward) taking out fodder of the Centipede Project (a subset of HYDRA).
The Centipede Project did a far better job of running its ops covertly than HIVE did, and it had operations that spanned globally, not just mainly in a single city. There's no reason why any of their operatives would be less skilled than the average HIVE operatives besides sheer conjecture.
The transport van feat is vastly surpassed by the gif against the Ghosts I posted in my first post. Every one of those soldiers were armed too, you know. John had to control their firearms while fighting just like Grant did. Pay attention to the choreography. The difference is his opponents were better trained and there were more of them.
No it's not. The transport van was in closer quarters, and Ward had to be quick enough to break out of handcuffs before engaging 2-3 FBI agents in that little cramped space. John had the initial element of surprise with Ollie's explosive arrow, plus he blindsided them before engaging them while they were still disoriented.
It's not even close to being as impressive as Ward's feat.
Nondescript statements and legends just don't match up with Diggle on-screen actually fighting an army of ninja... and he and Malcolm defeated all of them almost singlehandedly. Laurel had her hands full with just three the whole time, and Katana took care of Maseo. It was Malcolm and John running around the battlefield and cleaning out the mass numbers.
If you can take an amazing feat from John which Grant has never actually replicated, and just wave it off as "oh yeah it was vaguely implied four seasons ago that Grant could totally do that too" then I can use Diggle's tie-in feat where he killed over a dozen Taliban, who were the most ruthless fighters he had ever seen, without any weapons and after being stabbed in the back with a hatchet, all before a scarf that was thrown in the air could hit the ground. He did this on-panel, then the narrator explicitly stated that he did this. Unlike Ward and his nondescript rumors. So no matter what, John is outperforming Grant by a large amount.
I said "Even statements-wise Ward has in fact taken on armies like that, this is implied in Season 1 itself." Not that his showings are limited to statements.
Also, now that I think about it, there aren't enough League assassins there to justify it being called an army anyways. At-least, not the amount that Diggle is engaging. And he had the rest of Team Arrow (sans Ollie) backing him up. This feat below of Ward's shows more tactical thinking and skill than any of Diggle's fodder feats. Even the way he yanks the guy off the ladder with the chain, it's a feat that isn't supposed to be physically possible.
This feat above was in 1x07. Ward literally had a liability in the form of Leo Fitz, who was accompanying him on this mission for reasons that I can't be bothered to explain atm. Fitz was untrained, not on the level of any of Team Arrow except for Felicity, and had no combat skills to speak of. The mission was to infiltrate a the country of South Ossetia and take a dangerous weapon out of play. Ward literally went into a large area with rebel uprisings and conflicts with no team except for a guy without combat training. He had to look out for said agent while taking down soldiers, he didn't have the luxury of having a well-trained entourage in the form of Merlyn, Laurel, and Tatsu accompanying him.
Against a group of rebel soldiers in Peru, he was actually under assault rifle fire from multiple directions. By using suppression fire with his pistol, he managed to clear enough space to leap down a flight of stairs and use a device to take them out:
Unlike the League, these guys used guns and didn't rely on archaic methods of battle.
The Taliban feat is good, but Diggle struggled greatly and got tagged in a significant way.
There's really nothing to say about the rest of your feats. Ghosts are a lot more dangerous than any normal special forces, and ninja are ninja. If those three men were assigned to protecting Von than maybe I can assume they were on par with Ghosts, but not better, and that's a compliment since Ghosts have actual feats in addition to reputation, and Diggle took out a lot more than just three Ghosts. He could take out three Ghosts AT ONCE. Grant took out three equivalents one by one. I don't watch AoS, but I'm not seeing what puts Grant on par with John...
Meanwhile the feat against Malick's soldiers is not as good as John's showing in Nanda Parbet. HYDRA is not any better than the League. So what did Grant do? He shot three of them then defeated two more in CQC. He was very tactical about it and it's a well produced battle, but Diggle can tactically dodge bullets while in gunfights too. It's not an over-the-moon feat.
And besides the reaction time and environmental awareness he displayed by immediately taking cover from the bullets and then shooting under the table, Grant did not do anything special in that scene. Again he just shot three soldiers then beat two in CQC. Diggle shot a lot more ninja and beat a lot more in CQC as well.
"Ninja are ninja" isn't a good argument, especially when you yourself have made arguments for the soldier types being more efficient in combat. Ghosts have no feats (besides maybe Andy) to suggest that they're better than special forces.
Meanwhile, HYDRA and SHIELD teams are consistently shown being tactical and polished. Again, look at the Lemurian Star sequence. We actually have that to scale regular HYDRA and SHIELD strike teams off of, we don't have anything similar for the Ghosts or the League.
Diggle's feat of taking cover isn't even close. Let's go over why:
Distance - Diggle's assailant was much farther away, giving Diggle more time to react and respond
Numbers - Ward was dealing with several gunmen firing at him, Diggle was dealing with one
Vantage - Diggle clearly ran behind a corner which the assailant had to round before spraying at Diggle (this gave him more time to slide behind cover) - meanwhile, Ward's opponents were right in front of him the whole time
Momentum - Ward didn't have any forward momentum since the pool table was right next to him, while Diggle had plenty of space to sprint and power himself into the slide
Also, Ward shot three HYDRA soldiers who were actually returning suppression, unlike the League. He was more tactical, skilled, and quick than Diggle has shown the ability to be.
What does being a specialist have to do with anything? His skillset is exactly the same as John's. H2H, guns, military tactics, and stealth. John just has much better feats in every area. John was a Master Sergeant in the U.S. military before joining Oliver, and joining Oliver only gave him access to even better training and gave him experience saving the city, then the country, and even the whole world a couple times. He's fought not only ninja, but super soldiers just like Grant has, and 8 foot tall aliens. He's obviously not a SHIELD agent, but his wife was the highest ranking agent in ARGUS and she now runs ARGUS. She got beaten by a single League foot soldier, the likes of which John was steamrolling. ARGUS is SHIELD's equivalent and ARGUS was massively outclassed by the League so...
Logically, it makes all the difference. Ward was trained in the SHIELD Academy of Operations and by John Garrett (who learned tactics from Fury himself). He underwent a rigid curriculum with a high dropout rate under the instruction of an organization that deals with aliens, gods, and the most dangerous individuals on the planet. He was given top combat grades by Maria Hill, who has seen the Avengers in action. Regular military training doesn't compare. On paper, Ward's training is superior to Ollie's (let alone Diggle's).
And again, before you say that the League and HIVE are no different - SHIELD has feats of its STRIKE teams being legitimately competent, to back all of this up.
ARGUS and SHIELD aren't comparable either. The training, wealth, skills, resources, and tactics at SHIELD's disposal are exponentially superior to those of ARGUS. Can you name ARGUS agents that are as skilled as:
Melinda May
Daisy Johnson
Bobbi Morse
Natasha Romanoff
Brock Rumlow
Steve Rogers
Clint Barton
Just to name a few. SHIELD consistently produces top tier fighters, ARGUS doesn't. Ward is considered to be able to match the agency's best fighters, according to Maria Hill's assessment.
Also you say that John has fought enhanced individuals like Ward has, but I've never seen him straight up physically dominate one like Ward has.
Ward has the Centipede Soldier on his knees and is using an environmental advantage plus raw physical power to actually hurt him.
Centipede Soldiers are capable of this:
They're skilled, strong, and durable. Ward was taking them on h2h with his physicals, and he tanked a punch to the jaw from one of them.
With all of this being said, I haven't even gotten to Ward's consistently equal showings against someone who is commonly regarded as one of the MCU's most skilled fighters.
There's no way Diggle is beating Ward, who is simply better.
Ok. Those two gifs are both impressive, but so far they aren't anything Ward can't do.
That wasn't the point. You're the one who said the way Ward took down two cops was more efficient than what Diggle could do. I posted those gifs to prove that statement wrong.
Is there any actual proof that HIVE is superior to special forces besides the implication that they are meant to be a counterpart to the League?
Well being a counterpart to the League is a major aspect. Frankly I don't understand why that isn't enough?
Well the fact that they are brainwashed into complete fearlessness and singleminded dedication to the mission would realistically put them above any existing combat organization. Having literally no qualms or hesitation is very significant... the Ghosts are pure efficiency. One of them tackled Speedy into a wall and pinned her with a gun in an early episode, she had to be saved by -- guess who -- Diggle. Three of them together beat Black Canary pretty swiftly in the same episode. One of them got Oliver in a headlock and pinned him down while the other threw a grenade at them, showing a significant level of unspoken synergy and a willingness to sacrifice themselves without a second's thought if it means taking the hero with them. That makes them dangerous. The whole reason the team had to bring Oliver back into the fold was because the Ghosts were terrorizing the whole city, committing high-level tech robberies and then escaping without leaving a single trace of themselves behind, somehow. That's why they were called Ghosts.
I mean they have League training methods applied to a military context. That's pretty badass. Ghosts are the perfect combination of ninja and special forces.
Nobody on the team, not even Oliver, beat up the Ghosts in large numbers as effectively as Diggle did. Sometimes the Ghosts would land hits on Oliver, and I mentioned how a few of them could overwhelm Speedy or Black Canary, but never did they touch the Digmaster. Not even Diggle's own brother, who was a high ranking commander in HIVE, so definitely not your average Ghost, not even he could touch Diggle. The guy fist fought Speedy to a near-stalemate, could jump off rooftops and got rammed by a speeding van and sent skidding halfway across an alleyway only to just get up like he was fine, which is blatantly superhuman, and even outpaced a crossbow bolt to rescue Oliver, just a really elite soldier all the way around. Diggle just casually walks into his cell and beats him to a pulp just to let off some steam. Like he's no threat whatsoever. Andy can't even fight back.
I wonder if Grant has ever steamrolled through someone as impressive as Andy.
And what makes the League so well trained besides Sara claiming that they make spec ops look like kindergartners despite feats suggesting otherwise?
Catching arrows, dodging bullets, vanishing and appearing in broad daylight at will, cutting through metal, completely ignoring pain, one generic foot soldier could kill a whole gang and defeat the highest agent in ARGUS.
SHIELD and HYDRA are much more fleshed out in the MCU. We see what a STRIKE team is capable of in TWS during the Lemurian Star sequence,
You mean the boat fight? I remember Captain America doing all the work... what did his teammates do that was impressive?
And wait, who cares? Why is this relevant at all? Ward never fought a STRIKE team like Diggle fights groups of Ghosts.
we see SHIELD/HYDRA agents like Agent 33 take on Melinda May in CQC, we see Antoine Triplett (an agent who is established not to be on the same level as Ward) taking out fodder of the Centipede Project (a subset of HYDRA).
Neither of those characters are canon fodder, which is what we are talking about. Didn't Bobbi and May both defeat Ward anyway?
The Centipede Project did a far better job of running its ops covertly than HIVE did, and it had operations that spanned globally, not just mainly in a single city. There's no reason why any of their operatives would be less skilled than the average HIVE operatives besides sheer conjecture.
Based on what? The Centipede Project failed... HIVE came this close to literally annihilating the planet. They DID have operations spanning globally. Darhk was only centered in Star City because that is where he chose to build his arc. HYDRA is no better than the League, Legends implied that the League has been in existence since before recorded history, and Malcolm basically stated they are the ones who run the world's affairs from behind the scenes. What is the one organization the League could never track down, the one group always a step ahead? HIVE.
...And wait, again, who cares? Has Ward ever fought a whole team of Centipedes? No? Then why is this information even relevant? The whole point was that Diggle is fighting a team of soldiers singlehandedly.
No it's not. The transport van was in closer quarters, and Ward had to be quick enough to break out of handcuffs before engaging 2-3 FBI agents in that little cramped space. John had the initial element of surprise with Ollie's explosive arrow, plus he blindsided them before engaging them while they were still disoriented.
It's not even close to being as impressive as Ward's feat.
The cramped space was Ward's advantage, he could easily reach and control their guns. Diggle had to manage three guys at once standing up who were actually in a position to fight. You're praising Ward on attacking "before his enemies could react" yet admonishing Diggle as having the element of surprise. Uh, no, Diggle managed to blindside one soldier, but they were the ones actually searching for and intending to kill him, the rest reacted immediately. Ward is the one who had the element of surprise on his transporters. And there was no explosive arrow, you think I posted a gif of Diggle fighting blind people? You're misremembering the scene and instead of checking, or at least phrasing this like a question, you're just declaring false facts.
Also, now that I think about it, there aren't enough League assassins there to justify it being called an army anyways. At-least, not the amount that Diggle is engaging. And he had the rest of Team Arrow (sans Ollie) backing him up.
A lot of it is off-screen... the scene has to switch back and forth between the entire team constantly. But I already explained this. Laurel had her hands full defending against just three ninja, Katana took care of Maseo, and that's the whole team. John and Malcolm were responsible for cleaning out the numbers, and there's no reason to believe they were just resting whenever they were off-screen. They were fighting for a full three or four minutes, the gif only contains 30 seconds.
And it doesn't really matter if its off-screen, because just the number of people Diggle fought on-screen is more than anything you've shown from Grant.
This feat below of Ward's shows more tactical thinking and skill than any of Diggle's fodder feats. Even the way he yanks the guy off the ladder with the chain, it's a feat that isn't supposed to be physically possible.
He's just taking out two guys....
Against a group of rebel soldiers in Peru, he was actually under assault rifle fire from multiple directions. By using suppression fire with his pistol, he managed to clear enough space to leap down a flight of stairs and use a device to take them out:
All your gif shows is Ward leaping down a set of stairs....
The Taliban feat is good, but Diggle struggled greatly and got tagged in a significant way.
This doesn't negate the feat... I'm starting to wonder if Ward has ever fought more than two guys at once...
Again, look at the Lemurian Star sequence. We actually have that to scale regular HYDRA and SHIELD strike teams off of,
The STRIKE team is the elite of SHIELD, Ward never fought a STRIKE team.
Logically, it makes all the difference. Ward was trained in the SHIELD Academy of Operations and by John Garrett (who learned tactics from Fury himself). He underwent a rigid curriculum with a high dropout rate under the instruction of an organization that deals with aliens, gods, and the most dangerous individuals on the planet. He was given top combat grades by Maria Hill, who has seen the Avengers in action. Regular military training doesn't compare. On paper, Ward's training is superior to Ollie's (let alone Diggle's).
Yet with all that training I haven't seen him beat more than two men at once...
Also you say that John has fought enhanced individuals like Ward has, but I've never seen him straight up physically dominate one like Ward has.
Ward has the Centipede Soldier on his knees and is using an environmental advantage plus raw physical power to actually hurt him.
I'm supposed to be impressed by Ward landing all of three hits on a man with no enhanced speed or skills, who also has his arm pinned and was literally stuck in place? Diggle can't land three hits on a guy who can't actually move? Okay, because I remember him parrying the shit out of Ravager in a situation where every factor that could possibly be going against him, was.
This is lame. You're lowballing Diggle's every move with extremely minor nitpicks and just posting gif after gif of Ward fighting one or two people.
I already showed John sniping a ton of distant ninja, oneshotting three ninja in a row coming at him with swords while he just used his hands, and then gun-kataing two ninja coming at him with swords. As well as John disarming and flooring four spec ops at once, then another later, and sensing a sneak attack and spinning around to kick the guy's legs and make him do cartwheels through the air, then taking out another soldier by throwing an arrow with lethal force, only to reveal it was an explosive and John timed it all up to take out the final three soldiers just as they closed the distance while he rescued Oliver.
That wasn't the point. You're the one who said the way Ward took down two cops was more efficient than what Diggle could do. I posted those gifs to prove that statement wrong.
That is fair.
Ok, so I get that HIVE is fearless and is willing to sacrifice themselves to take out the hero opposition, but that's...not really much different than a lot of real life terrorist threats out there. Besides Andy, I don't recall any of them doing anything particularly skillful. Getting Ollie in a headlock is a decent feat, but other than that I haven't seen anything to suggest they're supremely skilled.
Tackling Thea and giving Laurel trouble aren't big enough factors to say they could give someone like Ward any sort of fight.
Andy had legitimate trouble with Thea in a hand to hand encounter. Beating him down isn't impressive at all in my books. Ward hasn't fought many slightly lower tier fighters hand to hand in the first place, most of his encounters are with master fighters. When he and Antoine Triplett fought (Tripp is capable of effortlessly taking down HYDRA fodder), Ward dominated him.
Catching arrows, dodging bullets, vanishing and appearing in broad daylight at will, cutting through metal, completely ignoring pain, one generic foot soldier could kill a whole gang and defeat the highest agent in ARGUS.
That's all fine and dandy, until someone like Laurel (with basic training from Wildcat and Nyssa) starts being able to contend with them despite struggling with street thugs just an episode earlier. Not very impressive.
You can't make arguments based on in-universe logic and scaling without it looking ridiculous due to the inconsistent nature of Arrow's fodder. SHIELD and HYDRA are much more scaleable and consistent.
You mean the boat fight? I remember Captain America doing all the work... what did his teammates do that was impressive?
And wait, who cares? Why is this relevant at all? Ward never fought a STRIKE team like Diggle fights groups of Ghosts.
Rumlow and his team breached the boat and utilized stealth/tactics to eliminate several of Batroc's crew, as well as rescue the hostages. Their role was imperative to the success of the operation. Ward has fought several Level 5 SHIELD agents at once in a hallway. For reference, Natasha Romanoff was Level 7 before SHIELD went up in flames. Rumlow himself was never stated to be a Level 7 operative, and he didn't seem to have the level of command that other Level 7's like Sitwell and Ward did. And his STRIKE team was ranked even lower than him. Ward was Level 7, regarded by SHIELD to be on the same level as Avengers like Natasha and Clint.
Now Ward got tagged a few times here, and he was even knocked to the ground at one point before slicing through the rest of them with a knife off-screen.
However, there are a couple of points to be made here. The SHIELD agents are exponentially more competent than the Taliban (for obvious in-universe reasons), as well as the fodder Ghosts and LoA assassins (who don't utilize any sort of actual effective skill that we've seen). Also - Ward himself actually employs technique, unlike most Arrow characters. His side kick is executed perfectly from a martial arts standpoint, he makes use of the wall to gain an advantage, he straight up clotheslines an armored guy so hard he does a backflip...
The SHIELD fighters were actually utilizing techniques to try and overpower him, as opposed to the Ghosts (who seem to basically just throw wild jab cross combos and hope for the best). From a technical standpoint, that spinning back kick executed by the SHIELD agent above is near perfect. He throws a feint beforehand, levels his body, and delivers swiftly with his leg extending with the momentum of the kick. Ward caught it and flipped him over, while bodying another fully armored agent away. They're far more impressive than the Ghosts, martial arts wise.
Furthermore, the SHIELD agents were tactically coordinated at the beginning and Ward had to eliminate their formation...they weren't blindsided because they forgot to check their corners, unlike Ghosts.
Neither of those characters are canon fodder, which is what we are talking about. Didn't Bobbi and May both defeat Ward anyway?
Fair point about the cannon fodder. But Bobbi, May, and Ward are consistently depicted as near equals. Ward stalemated May at the end of their first fight, and he had a clear upper hand on her in the second fight before she took him by surprise.
He fought Bobbi once after she had been tortured, but there was heavy context. Ward was actively trying not to kill her while Bobbi was going all out, so it balanced out. It ended when Ward shattered her kneecap with a kick.
Based on what? The Centipede Project failed... HIVE came this close to literally annihilating the planet. They DID have operations spanning globally. Darhk was only centered in Star City because that is where he chose to build his arc. HYDRA is no better than the League, Legends implied that the League has been in existence since before recorded history, and Malcolm basically stated they are the ones who run the world's affairs from behind the scenes. What is the one organization the League could never track down, the one group always a step ahead? HIVE.
...And wait, again, who cares? Has Ward ever fought a whole team of Centipedes? No? Then why is this information even relevant? The whole point was that Diggle is fighting a team of soldiers singlehandedly.
You haven't watched AoS, you lack a lot of the context needed to evaluate both organizations properly. AoS is way more intricate in its world building than Arrow is, so making assumptions like that without actually watching the show is a huge no no.As someone who has watched both shows, the Centipede Project actually achieved its goal before being defeated. Their goal was to create a new breed of super soldiers and develop a new brand of scientific immortality, which they achieved.
HYDRA has existed for thousands of years, the Red Skull himself was stated to be just a follower of their original principles. So the whole League's long history thing, that's a wash.
I've already shown you Ward engaging multiple elite SHIELD agents above, and explained why they're more impressive than HIVE soldiers.
The cramped space was Ward's advantage, he could easily reach and control their guns. Diggle had to manage three guys at once standing up who were actually in a position to fight. You're praising Ward on attacking "before his enemies could react" yet admonishing Diggle as having the element of surprise. Uh, no, Diggle managed to blindside one soldier, but they were the ones actually searching for and intending to kill him, the rest reacted immediately. Ward is the one who had the element of surprise on his transporters. And there was no explosive arrow, you think I posted a gif of Diggle fighting blind people? You're misremembering the scene and instead of checking, or at least phrasing this like a question, you're just declaring false facts.
Ward was in full view of the agents, all of whom were told by Coulson: "Do not give him one inch."
He started out in handcuffs as well, which Diggle didn't. Furthermore, just to add additional context on top of that - this was a Ward who hadn't been in practice and was relatively out of form. He had been in a solitary confinement SHIELD containment cell with a plasma wall for several months. He was even shown working on strength and coordination drills during his stay there, to try and get back to his former level.
The HIVE soldiers were literally all facing the opposite direction and didn't bother to check their corners...he blindsided them by taking advantage of their lack of tactical IQ. They were slow to react, and they didn't do anything except throw wild jabs and crosses. Take another look back at the perfectly executed spinning back kick used by that SHIELD agent that was part of the group that Ward fought, and tell me with a straight face that the HIVE soldiers are more technically proficient. Unless you can give me a feat of a fodder HIVE soldier performing an effective martial arts maneuver with good technique?
A lot of it is off-screen... the scene has to switch back and forth between the entire team constantly. But I already explained this. Laurel had her hands full defending against just three ninja, Katana took care of Maseo, and that's the whole team. John and Malcolm were responsible for cleaning out the numbers, and there's no reason to believe they were just resting whenever they were off-screen. They were fighting for a full three or four minutes, the gif only contains 30 seconds.
And it doesn't really matter if its off-screen, because just the number of people Diggle fought on-screen is more than anything you've shown from Grant.
I just rewatched the full scene. Tatsu was seen taking down several League members before getting to Maseo.
Also, Ward fighting the SHIELD agents above shows him fighting as many as more than as many opponents as Diggle has at once. I know most Arrow debaters don't like choreography based arguments since it highlights the shortcomings of their characters...but that single spinning back kick by a Level 5 SHIELD agent is literally better executed from a martial arts standpoint than any of Ollie's similar kicks in all of the seasons of Arrow. Choreography is in fact important, despite what some here on the Vine might claim. It shows the level at which those agents operate, being able to do that in full tactical body armor.
He's just taking out two guys....
It's three soldiers. And ok, so does Diggle have the hand eye coordination and skill to drag a soldier off of a ladder with a chain like that? It's not even a lasso, it has no anchor or grappling function/mechanic. It's a physical feat that shouldn't be possible, but Ward did it. Furthermore, like I said, he had to look out for Fitz at the same time as fighting...he wasn't backed up by a well-trained team, unlike Diggle in most of his fights.
Here is the extended gif:
This is the extended gif. He takes down five soldiers using quick thinking and skill. Unlike Ghosts, they don't throw wild punches and hope for the best. Ward judo flips a guy by transferring his momentum, attacks another's thigh with a kick to limit mobility as seen in Muay Thai, etc. Diggle doesn't use any actual techniques that are practical from a self defense perspective.
All your gif shows is Ward leaping down a set of stairs....
Fair enough, most of him shooting rebels was off screen.
This doesn't negate the feat... I'm starting to wonder if Ward has ever fought more than two guys at once...
Fair enough, it's still a good feat.
And yep, he has. As shown above, he took out an entire squad of Level 5 SHIELD agents. One of these agents performed a spinning back kick that was better executed from a martial arts standpoint than the vast majority (probably all, tbh) of Ollie's kicks in Arrow.
The chain feat was against three soldiers. And if we go by the extended gif I posted above, it was against five soldiers.
And Ward took down another incoming cop right after the two he took down in the gif I posted earlier. Here is the extended gif:
A third cop goes in for a tackle which fails to floor or even phase Ward, and he knocks the cop out by slamming a glass into his head. So, a cop goes in for a full-fledged tackle that barely manages to budge Ward...meanwhile, Diggle was floored by an evil hefty doctor in a lab coat at one point.
Ward also utilizes actual technical martial arts, not random 540 tornado kicks or wildly thrown punches (unlike the vast majority of Arrow heroes).
The STRIKE team is the elite of SHIELD, Ward never fought a STRIKE team.
If by them being the elite of SHIELD you mean to imply they're the best, they're not. The common consensus on the Vine is that Brock Rumlow (commander of STRIKE) isn't on Ward's level. Melinda May was straight up confirmed by Marvel Entertainment in a promotional video to be the most lethal agent SHIELD has ever seen. Ward is one of the few un-enhanced individuals to have kept up with her and gained an advantage on her in a fight. Can you show me a feat of Diggle matching someone who is comparable to May?
I'm supposed to be impressed by Ward landing all of three hits on a man with no enhanced speed or skills, who also has his arm pinned and was literally stuck in place? Diggle can't land three hits on a guy who can't actually move? Okay, because I remember him parrying the shit out of Ravager in a situation where every factor that could possibly be going against him, was.
No enhanced speed or skills? Mike Peterson, who had an unrefined version of the Centipede Serum, hit a 40 foot vertical jump without any effort. He took a shotgun blast at very close range, which caused him to lose his balance and fall around 30 feet onto solid marble. He was un-phased by it.
The Centipede Serum has a modified SSS, Extremis, Gamma Radiation, blood platelets from a superhuman to stabilize the formula, and Chitauri Metal components.
The Centipede Soldiers are all confirmed to be ex-special forces, as well. He couldn't move because Ward dodged him to make his hand get pinned. He then had the striking power to visibly phase and hurt a super-soldier with a serum that allowed its users to be un-phased by shotgun blasts. Diggle doesn't have that striking power. You're lowballing the heck out of this feat to make it seem like something Diggle would be able to replicate - Ward is causing more damage to a super-soldier with pure CQC in one clip than Oliver has in all of Arrow.
Unlike Ravager, Centipede Soldiers didn't wait around while they had their opponent on the ground. They attacked and Ward tanked or dodged. Wash, rinse, and repeat.
This is lame. You're lowballing Diggle's every move with extremely minor nitpicks and just posting gif after gif of Ward fighting one or two people.
Lowballing? I'm not the one saying that an ex-soldier who has zero feats of being equal to an established top-tier opponent can beat a specialist who has matched Melinda May, given Bobbi Morse a good fight, has fodder-wrecking feats against competent fodder, and has been stated to be the finest soldier HYDRA ever made. My points aren't nitpicks...sure I'm getting technical, but that's the point of these debates. To evaluate every possible factor.
What's lame is you implying that Diggle can contend with a high-tier MCU combatant who one-shots and rag-dolls enemies with greater ease than he ever could.
I already showed John sniping a ton of distant ninja, oneshotting three ninja in a row coming at him with swords while he just used his hands, and then gun-kataing two ninja coming at him with swords. As well as John disarming and flooring four spec ops at once, then another later, and sensing a sneak attack and spinning around to kick the guy's legs and make him do cartwheels through the air, then taking out another soldier by throwing an arrow with lethal force, only to reveal it was an explosive and John timed it all up to take out the final three soldiers just as they closed the distance while he rescued Oliver.
And now I've now shown you Ward taking down multiple Level 5 SHIELD agents at once, who have shown more competence than all of Arrow's fodder. If you'll notice, Ward took out one of them by hurling a combat knife in a similar way that Diggle threw an arrow. Only difference is, arrows have more piercing power so Ward's feat is more impressive.
Also, saying that three Ghosts all ran towards an arrow in the middle of an intersection while it beeped and glowed isn't helping your case that they're supposed to be an elite force.
As for Diggle getting tagged by the Taliban, you're right that it's still a good feat in spite of that. But Ward has taken out six SHIELD agents coming from three separate directions with dual wielded pistols before any of them could react. That's a superior feat to Diggle's Taliban feat, imo. And that's without getting into the fact that SHIELD agents are inherently superior to Taliban soldiers.
If you want to talk about speed and how Diggle parried Ravager, show me Diggle deflecting bullets like this, at this pace:
That is a speed feat which is plainly above anything Diggle has shown, unless you have a showing from Dig that I have forgotten. I even put up a poll in Gen. Discussion, because I want to see if people can come up with a feat of Dig's that I can't remember.
Also, you still haven't actually given me legitimate proof that ARGUS's tactics, resources, training, etc. are anywhere near SHIELD's. It's one of the biggest false equivalencies I have ever seen on this site.
My main gripe is that you haven't given me a single top-tier opponent that Dig has actually matched in h2h. I can give you legitimate fight scenes to show Ward matching May and giving Bobbi heavy damage.
Your entire argument is predicated on Diggle's performances against some of the most idiotic fodder I've ever had the displeasure of seeing in action. Decent feats against inconsistent and laughably skilled fodder aren't enough to save Diggle from the worst beatdown of his life...especially when Ward has beaten a squad of Venezuelan soldiers solo, defeated a squad of SHIELD agents solo, taken out a squad of South Ossetian armed forces solo, and laid down a smackdown on HYDRA agents using great technical skill.
You can claim that Dig takes on armies, but Ward takes on armies that know how to actually fight.
Honestly now that I rewatched the season 6 premiere, I just realized Oliver got put into a submission hold by a random mercenary. Grant has never been fully compromised by fodder like that. He's been tagged, but never utterly dominated like that.
Given that Diggle is consistently ranked as not being on Oliver's level, Ward dominates even more by scaling off of that feat.
Honestly now that I rewatched the season 6 premiere, I just realized Oliver got put into a submission hold by a random mercenary. Grant has never been fully compromised by fodder like that. He's been tagged, but never utterly dominated like that.
Given that Diggle is consistently ranked as not being on Oliver's level, Ward dominates even more by scaling off of that feat.
So are you just going to ignore all of the other times Oliver (or even Diggle) tore through mercenaries with ease? Hell Diggle defeated several of those same mercs in CQC. Not to mention that those particular mercenaries were stated to be really highly trained.
And yes Ward was dominated by a random fodder like that before.
Pinned Ward on the ladder and got several punches on him
Likely would've gone on longer if Fitz hadn't jump in.
Honestly now that I rewatched the season 6 premiere, I just realized Oliver got put into a submission hold by a random mercenary. Grant has never been fully compromised by fodder like that. He's been tagged, but never utterly dominated like that.
Given that Diggle is consistently ranked as not being on Oliver's level, Ward dominates even more by scaling off of that feat.
So are you just going to ignore all of the other times Oliver (or even Diggle) tore through mercenaries with ease? Hell Diggle defeated several of those same mercs in CQC. Not to mention that those particular mercenaries were stated to be really highly trained.
And yes Ward was dominated by a random fodder like that before.
Likely would've gone on longer if Fitz hadn't jump in.
The difference between the two situations is that Ward had finished engaging several soldiers right before that, and this final soldier finally managed to get the jump and get some good licks in at the end.
Oliver engaged one mercenary (albeit with a blade) and got held down.
It's not the same. Show me a single instance of one guy without any backup, no matter how highly trained, bringing Ward to his knees and keeping him there for an extended period of time like the merc did to Ollie.
Ward has fodder wrecking feats too. Every time he has been knocked down or pinned, it's either been by:
A sheer numbers advantage in close quarters by specialized agents
Being blindsided in the heat of battle before quickly recovering to his feet and not missing a beat
@the_magister: Regardless my point still stands. You can't base Oliver fighting prowress on that one particular scene especially when he easily defeated several of those same mercenaries in CQC later on in the same epsisode.
And you can't base Diggle's level on Oliver having problems with one merc when Diggle himself was fodderizing the other mercs literally seconds before Oliver fought him.
I'm not basing his entire fighting prowess off of that feat, I'm just saying that Ward himself doesn't have a low showing like that against only one trained fodder without there being heavy context (e.g. having taken on multiple other soldiers and dragged one off the ladder with a chain to prevent him from getting to Fitz before being blindsided).
Anyway, my point is:
Low showings may not be representative of the character's combat abilities on average, but it shows that Oliver can end up being vulnerable in a way that we just haven't seen from the high tier agents in the MCU. Diggle, who is worse than Oliver, can end up in that situation as well.
But you make a good point, we can't base everything off of low showings.
@dstreet45: Looking back at my comment, I can definitely see why and how it's a lowball of Ollie's (and by extension, Diggle's) skills. I think that low showing more or less just caught my eye when I rewatched the episode, and it influenced my logic a bit too much. However, it shows that Oliver can in fact be downed by mercenary fodder in a manner that we haven't seen from any of the top-tier agents.
But yeah, I'm gonna straight up admit that focusing on a low showing like that isn't..well, accurate.
I still don't think Diggle has any chance in hell here, but not because of that. Cheers.
@the_magister: While I'm 100% on your side regarding Ward beating Diggle, just thought I should mention, it took both Ward and Kara to beat Bobbi. You made it sound as if he beat her on her own. Which, he certainly didn't.
@theonewhodoesso: You're absolutely correct, but I think there was heavy context that people often overlook.
Bobbi had been tortured, yes. Bobbi wasn't as quick or as sharp as she normally would be, yes.
But she was going all out to survive, while Ward was actively trying not to kill her so that Kara could have her closure. Not to mention, Bobbi took him by surprise and literally jammed long needles into his neck before the fight.
I think if you removed all the subtle context, it'd be a very close fight between Ward and Bobbi.
Also I don't think needing Kara to distract Bobbi for a bit is necessarily a low showing for Ward, considering that Bobbi is a league or two above the vast majority of MCU and CW fighters alike. She took on a Kree warrior who fought Lady Sif on even terms.
@the_magister: Yeah I understand, personally I put Bobbi just slightly above both Ward and May, but I can see a case made for any of them beating the other with context. Like the May vs Ward fight, Ward should have won, but May grabbed the nail gun. That helped her beat him. And while I agree that Ward had to be holding back, due to the context, I'd still have down that Bobbi was beating him till Kara showed up. Not by much however, Ward is an incredible fighter in his own right and was pushing her to the limit as well.
Back on topic though, how is this even a debate? I don't put Diggle anywhere near Ward.
And I agree with you, I honestly don't know how Diggle is comparable to Ward.
Like look below...I have never seen Diggle take on competent soldier fodder like this and utilize actual martial arts techniques to break them down. Ward is extremely physical as well but the way he transfers momentum, attacks specific body parts (such as kicking the upper thigh) to reduce mobility, etc. Until I see legitimate technique from Diggle besides performing wild haymakers and other ridiculously impractical moves, there's no way I put them on the same level.
Ward also has legitimate feats of matching May:
So you're right, there's no reason to put Diggle anywhere near Grant.
Ok, so I get that HIVE is fearless and is willing to sacrifice themselves to take out the hero opposition, but that's...not really much different than a lot of real life terrorist threats out there. Besides Andy, I don't recall any of them doing anything particularly skillful. Getting Ollie in a headlock is a decent feat, but other than that I haven't seen anything to suggest they're supremely skilled. Tackling Thea and giving Laurel trouble aren't big enough factors to say they could give someone like Ward any sort of fight.
I never said that HIVE fodder can defeat Grant. My point was that having zero inhibitions or fear, combined with elite special forces training, makes HIVE more significant fodder than the fodder that Grant has fought. This doesn't mean that HIVE fodder can defeat Grant, but it does make John's feats more impressive.
But even if comparing quality of fodder is just splitting hairs, John has faced larger numbers and never had trouble with anyone, so pointing out that Grant hasn't either is not an advantage.
Andy had legitimate trouble with Thea in a hand to hand encounter. Beating him down isn't impressive at all in my books. Ward hasn't fought many slightly lower tier fighters hand to hand in the first place, most of his encounters are with master fighters. When he and Antoine Triplett fought (Tripp is capable of effortlessly taking down HYDRA fodder), Ward dominated him.
Thea is a prodigy who had been training with Malcolm for two years by that point. Yet you're framing her fight with Andy as indication that Andy isn't supposed to be elite? If all Antoine did was effortlessly take down HYDRA fodder, what makes him more impressive than Andy and Thea, when they can do the exact same thing?
Thea beat Anarky and Anarky is some kind of freak of nature prodigy, he literally just walked into Damian Darhk's office and killed every single armed soldier there, didn't find Darhk, and just left and went to his house to kidnap his family instead. No sweat. He's also a casual arrow timer. Thea beat him, but Andy gave Thea hell. And John can bully Andy like Andy is fodder.
John also oneshotted Anarky.
And in the three-way spar, Oliver dropped Thea and Laurel at the same time like they were fodder, and John was the only one who could keep up with him for a time.
The point is that John is consistently superior to the Thea/Anarky/Andy tier by a massive amount, so he'd probably dominate Antoine just like Grant did. This makes Grant and John equal. Assuming Antoine is really as impressive as Anarky and Andy, who can jump off rooftops, get rammed by speeding vans with no injury, casually arrow time, and by "effortlessly take down HYDRA fodder" you mean six soldiers at once armed with machineguns. Because those are the guys that John can bully and oneshot.
That's all fine and dandy, until someone like Laurel (with basic training from Wildcat and Nyssa) starts being able to contend with them despite struggling with street thugs just an episode earlier. Not very impressive.
Laurel is inconsistent, not the League. Like you said, she went from street thug level to fighting three ninja at once. The ninja didn't go down to street thug level, they remained the same, it's Laurel who randomly became more skilled.
I literally listed like half a dozen feats off the top of my head that portray all League members as peak humans, and you're just throwing all of that away over just one inconsistency. Not even many inconsistencies but just one. That is so not fair.
The SHIELD agents are exponentially more competent than the Taliban (for obvious in-universe reasons), as well as the fodder Ghosts and LoA assassins (who don't utilize any sort of actual effective skill that we've seen)
I always figured that the reason Ghosts never did any fancy moves was because John was multitasking them so well they never got a chance to go on the offense.
It's not that they're just standing still, John is just overwhelming them. He basically blitzes the first guy with a one-two, grabs his buddies rifle while kicking the third soldier simultaneously and smoothly transitioning to a slam, throwing the third guy while he's stunned, and all of this before the very first guy could get back to his feet, in time for John to parry his rifle, sock him across the face, and drop him with a neck chop.
I hate to break it to you but those level 5 SHIELD agents Grant is fighting are the exact same way... besides one single instance of a spinning back kick (which means nothing because I could certainly find ONE instance of a Ghost throwing a kick) none of them are making any offensive headway. Which is fine, this just means that Grant is dominating them. If Grant was actually trading blows with these agents it would be a lot less impressive because it would mean he can't fodderize them, they're actually even with him. So Grant and John are on par in this case.
I really just think you're nitpicking the hell out of John and not holding Grant to the same standard.
Level 5 SHIELD agents are very good but level 5 could be magnitudes separated from level 7 so bringing up Black Widow is pointless. Level 5 SHIELD agents might still be better than Ghosts, but Grant also had a lot more trouble while John pretty much steamrolls anyone who gets in his line of sight. Grant fought level 5 SHIELD agents once but John fought tons of Ghosts constantly throughout Arrow S4, every episode and he never underperformed even one time. So I still don't think that feat is enough to be John's superior.
But Bobbi, May, and Ward are consistently depicted as near equals. Ward stalemated May at the end of their first fight, and he had a clear upper hand on her in the second fight before she took him by surprise.
He fought Bobbi once after she had been tortured, but there was heavy context. Ward was actively trying not to kill her while Bobbi was going all out, so it balanced out. It ended when Ward shattered her kneecap with a kick.
If you want to switch from canon fodder to named opponents than like I've mentioned, John oneshotted Anarky and can bully Andy. I'd be surprised if May and Bobbi have much better showings than Anarky and Andy. John is also one of the only people in the world at this point who can make Oliver Queen sweat. He can't beat Oliver but Oliver killed Ra's al Ghul and Damian Darhk, pretty sure he'd curbstomp Grant Ward. But Spartan makes him sweat.
Ward was in full view of the agents, all of whom were told by Coulson: "Do not give him one inch."
He started out in handcuffs as well, which Diggle didn't. Furthermore, just to add additional context on top of that - this was a Ward who hadn't been in practice and was relatively out of form. He had been in a solitary confinement SHIELD containment cell with a plasma wall for several months. He was even shown working on strength and coordination drills during his stay there, to try and get back to his former level.
The HIVE soldiers were literally all facing the opposite direction and didn't bother to check their corners...he blindsided them by taking advantage of their lack of tactical IQ. They were slow to react, and they didn't do anything except throw wild jabs and crosses. Take another look back at the perfectly executed spinning back kick used by that SHIELD agent that was part of the 12 that Ward fought, and tell me with a straight face that the HIVE soldiers are more technically proficient. Unless you can give me a feat of a fodder HIVE soldier performing an effective martial arts maneuver with good technique?
Again this is all splitting hairs. I don't think Grant being in prison was really a factor unless it was stated he was out of shape, and if he was training in prison like you mention than that just proves he actually did remain in shape. The handcuffs weren't a factor because Ward sneaking out of those is the act which alerted the guards in the first place. It's not like he escaped handcuffs while fighting.
If you want a feat that tops this, then let me bring up how John was tortured by Andy for a very long time and barely conscious, but completely reversed the situation as soon as they undid his restraints.
He overpowers two soldiers holding him by each arm, and dodges a bullet close enough that it hits the soldier behind him. Then he grabs a screwdriver off the table, the same screwdriver Andy used to torture him, and uses it to kill the two soldiers while simultaneously shielding himself from gunfire, then spins around the column, dodges one more bullet and then disarms Andy, while handcuffing him to the wall in one move.
This not only involves killing the two armed and armored fodder, but is another instance of John making Andy look helpless, even though John is really F'ed up at the moment.
You haven't watched AoS, you lack a lot of the context needed to evaluate both organizations properly. AoS is way more intricate in its world building than Arrow is, so making assumptions like that without actually watching the show is a huge no no.As someone who has watched both shows, the Centipede Project actually achieved its goal before being defeated. Their goal was to create a new breed of super soldiers and develop a new brand of scientific immortality, which they achieved. HYDRA has existed for thousands of years, the Red Skull himself was stated to be just a follower of their original principles. So the whole League's long history thing, that's a wash.
I don't actually watch the show but I can still judge the organization by the objective information you are providing. HIVE had a much more ambitious goal than Centipede. HIVE literally wanted to destroy the entire planet. And they came within inches of succeeding in that. So I don't think that Centipede succeeding in a far less ambitious goal makes them superior. And I already mentioned how the League has existed since before recorded history and currently controls much of the world's affairs from behind the scenes. You're really splitting hairs if you believe the reason Grant beats John is because his canon fodder might be 1% more impressive than John's. The more important fact is that John takes on larger numbers and also better named characters.
I mean for Pete sakes, Dig fought 8 foot tall superhuman aliens without a problem.
Loading Video...
0:17 He's on the front lines of the charge and immediately goes H2H with a Dominator.
0:43 Dig seems to have defeated the first Dominator he fought while another one attacks him. He doesn't know they are bulletproof so he gets caught by surprise and gets mauled by claw-fingers and smashed headfirst into the asphalt, but he's literally fine. Now that Dig knows the Dominators are bulletproof, he starts picking his shots at weak points instead and never gets tagged again.
1:07 He's fighting another Dominator H2H and winning. A few seconds later when Flash is blitzing, Dig is doing something else so he presumably beat that Dominator very quickly.
1:44 Dig beats another Dominator H2H then smoothly starts gunblitzing the crowd with eyeball shots.
1:56 Dig is in the background fighting another Dominator H2H before killing it by shooting it through the mouth.
3:28 He kills one more Dominator with a single bullet.
How do you think Grant would have performed in the Dominator Invasion? Could he have kept up? Especially alongside the likes of Green Arrow, Steel, Heatwave, and Flash. Diggle keeps up with those people and is an asset to them, but they would all curbstomp Grant.
I know most Arrow debaters don't like choreography based arguments since it highlights the shortcomings of their characters...but that single spinning back kick by a Level 5 SHIELD agent is literally better executed from a martial arts standpoint than any of Ollie's similar kicks in all of the seasons of Arrow. Choreography is in fact important, despite what some here on the Vine might claim. It shows the level at which those agents operate, being able to do that in full tactical body armor.
That's stupid. Arrow has great choreography in 4/5 seasons. You think that Grant is more skilled than Ward because ONE of his fodder performed a spinning back kick? Ridiculous. I could certainly find one instance of a fodder in Arrow throwing a kick.
All due respect, but I'm tired of this debate. I'm gonna quit here.
@the_hajduk: Ok since you're done with this debate, I'll wrap it up as well.
You can say that Ward would get beaten by Green Arrow, but you haven't provided any actual proof. The fact of the matter is:
Ward has the better on-paper training and superior statements to back up his abilities
Ward is consistently referred to as one of the best trained killers on his world (aka the MCU, filled with supersoldiers and godlike beings)
Ward performs at a tactically, physically, and technically high level against fodder that put the LoA and Ghosts to shame in skill
Ward's choreography is consistently superior, it just blows Ollie's out of the water - he utilizes actual martial arts techniques which are effective and practical...he doesn't perform poorly executed 540 tornado kicks at random and inopportune times
Ward has the better feats against spec ops-trained supersoldiers, straight up tanking and evading them with greater ease than Ollie does to untrainedsupersoldiers and objectively unimpressivealiens
Ward consistently matches Melinda May, who has a greater martial arts pedigree than Oliver does - she has beaten superhumans, defeated reputable fighters, and she has plenty of accolades attributed to her
Ward is just outright better than Oliver, and there is a solid argument to be made for it.
Again, you're hyping up the League Of Assassins and Ghosts to be these unstoppable forces when they have never shown the ability to coordinate in a tactical formation to pin down a target.
The SHIELD agents were coming from different directions in tight groups of 2, in what would normally be a really effective way to take out someone emerging from a broom closet like that. Ward broke up that formation by speedblitzing them with dual wielded ICERs. Diggle hasn't done that to anyone who is tactically proficient. Ghosts and League Of Assassins don't take up tactical formations that someone on Team Arrow is forced to break up, they just jump in with random haymaker punches and hope for the best. Or even worse, they get blindsided by two combatants because they don't know how to check their corners. They clearly lack tactical IQ.
And are you really saying that the Level 5 SHIELD agents and Ghosts fight the same way? The SHIELD agents use the environment (a fire extinguisher container), they take up tactical formations, and they use legitimate technique.
Saying that Ghosts have the same ability and they're just "too overwhelmed" by Diggle is a faulty argument when they've never shown that skill anywhere, at any time. And like I said, you might not like choreography based arguments...but you can't find a fodder kick in Arrow that's as well executed as that one from a martial arts standpoint. You'd even be hard pressed to find a kick from Ollie that isn't hugely flawed from a martial arts standpoint.
Even Diggle doesn't transfer his weight properly when performing a side kick in the gif you linked. You know who does? Ward.
__________
May and Bobbi are way better than Anarky and Andy. Bobbi held her own against a Kree warrior who matched Lady Sif, and May defeated multiple superhumans in raw h2h (the Primitives).
Anarky is inconsistent as hell, and Andy always loses. They're not remotely comparable.
That scene of John breaking out of restraints and fighting Ghosts is basically nullified by the point that Ghosts utilize no actual skill. The SHIELD agents actually know how to use their numbers, how to tactically coordinate, etc. Taking on Ghosts isn't comparable whatsoever, I don't care if John was injured. Don't just tell me that Ghosts are capable of performing technically proficient moves from a martial arts standpoint, show me.
The Dominators aren't impressive at all.
The Centipede Soldiers actually utilized skill in addition to vastly enhanced physicals. Ward and May consistently dodged them:
If you say that the Centipede Soldiers aren't more fast and skilled than Dominators after comparing your video and my gif...I don't know what to say.
The Centipede Project was an offshoot of HYDRA and had access to many of its resources. It produced a breed of super soldiers the likes of which HIVE has never seen, and it has the added benefit of being operated from within SHIELD...it was a greater threat than an organization whose entire plan depended on an underground settlement and the push of a button to send out nuclear missiles.
Thanks for debating, but there's no way Diggle holds a candle to Grant. Dig is a fantastic character, no doubt - but if you honestly think he'd be written to defeat someone who is a peer to May and Bobbi, there's no convincing you otherwise.
@ithemanwithoutfeari: I posted this in another thread and I wanted to get your thoughts, since you have replied to this thread. Warning though, spoilers for 6x03:
I definitely think this last episode was a good start for Diggle.
Although tbh, I wasn't too impressed with Diggle being way in over his head as the Green Arrow...he legitimately didn't know what he was doing. Especially if we are talking tactics - indecision isn't gonna fly with someone like Grant who makes tactical decisions on the fly while working solo...whether it is against SHIELD, HYDRA, or anyone else. I think this added a dimension to Diggle's character: he really just isn't an efficient decision maker in the field. He works best as part of a coordinated team, and he more or less said this himself.
Grant doesn't need all of that, he is a great on-the-spot tactician. I think from a characterization standpoint, all of that makes a massive difference in a straight up encounter. If Diggle slips up even once, he isn't walking away alive.
Of course, like every other problem in Arrow though, this is solved in a span of forty minutes due to plot. So idk how much weight to give this.
Sry mate I don't know enough about Ward to give you a detailed post, but from what I have seen (Fight scenes, respect thread on CV) I definitely think Ward is superior.
@the_magister: I don't think Diggle's incompetence as a leader was because of his lack of combat skills. His lack of decision making was mostly concerning how to lead his team and what choices to make.
@ithemanwithoutfeari: On another note, what about that durability feat from Diggle? Is it enough to at-least say he can hang in the fight longer against top-tier combatants such as Ward?
@ithemanwithoutfeari: On another note, what about that durability feat from Diggle? Is it enough to at-least say he can hang in the fight longer against top-tier combatants such as Ward?
Hmm ...
Honestly IDK, because this should have killed him.
@ithemanwithoutfeari: On another note, what about that durability feat from Diggle? Is it enough to at-least say he can hang in the fight longer against top-tier combatants such as Ward?
Hmm ...
Honestly IDK, because this should have killed him.
Yeah I am not sure how the physics behind that worked...in theory, it was so wildly inconsistent with anything else Diggle has shown that I don't know how to think about it.
@ithemanwithoutfeari: On another note, what about that durability feat from Diggle? Is it enough to at-least say he can hang in the fight longer against top-tier combatants such as Ward?
Hmm ...
Honestly IDK, because this should have killed him.
Yeah I am not sure how the physics behind that worked...in theory, it was so wildly inconsistent with anything else Diggle has shown that I don't know how to think about it.
Back in 2013/14 when the characters were relatively new Ward would've won comfortably, but now? Diggle beats his ass pretty badly along with most of not all AOS fighters IMO. Once Digg started fighting mirakuru users and League ninjas the tables turned and he only continued to get better. I don't see him needing nearly as much time as Ward did to beat the armored shield agents and he sure as Hell wouldn't be losing to Melinda May as beastly as she is.
Diggle was basically a punching bag that Ollie got to scale off of the first two seasons. But by 3, and especially by 4, Diggle has a shit ton of good feats. On top of all the feats already listed for Diggle above, the dude can fight on par with Ricardo Diaz and the Long Bow Hunters. Ward gets his ass beat and killed by tortured Bobbi, May with a nail gun, and beaten to death by friggen Coulson.
Log in to comment