CW Savitar vs. FOX Quicksilver

@nightmare52: Apocalypse has enhanced cognition. He had a host of mutant powers that he obtained from other mutants over the millennia he was active that weren't even all directly referenced in the film(as the director has stated). The fact alone that he was able to track Quicksilver and ensnare him while in superspeed mode is proof that he has it. Everything that I broke down can be concluded to enhanced cognition. You can try to deny this power/feat but this is a fact that cannot be disputed at this point. He has it. Period.

He did not use technopathy to learn the necessary information that he did. He only used a form of technopathy to hack into the earth's tv satellites, which in turn allowed him to tune into all of the tv stations from around the world... This was the 80s, so there was no internet for him to download this type of information from. The scene clearly implies he's processing information from television signals. His enhanced cognition allowed him to process all of the information from the tv signals at a superhuman rate. He was speaking fluent English in a matter of seconds... No one with normal human reaction is going to be able to do that, even with technopathy.

Only someone who didn't see the film or is completely bias would say otherwise at this point.

Yes, I have proven that he can move at top speed right off the bat. And it's the last time I'm going to say it, so don't expect a response. I don't care if you think that I haven't.

Nothing about the Apocalypse vs Quicksilver scene was inconsistent with the speed he used prior. He wasn't trying to use his max speed to take out Apocalypse. He was already multiple times fast than Apocalypse's base reaction. Apocalypse caught him by complete surprise, as he didn't see the sand rise up from the ground to ensnare his foot.

Even the wikis list him with this power... And yet I'm the one misinterpreting what he did... LOL

http://xmenmovies.wikia.com/wiki/Apocalypse

Knowledge Absorption - Apocalypse was able to learn vast amounts of information inhumanly quickly. After awakening from his long slumber, he extracted data from the media network, gaining an understanding of the modern world, and learning to speak fluently in English, all in a matter of seconds. When using this ability, it seemingly causes the network system to act haywire, as the television began randomly showing various channels.

@storm_calling said:

@arctika: Apocalypse used some undisclosed power to boost his cognitive functions in that fight. He was getting blitzed(in quite literally the same fashion) before he used this power to trap him with his sand powers.

that really should not have worked anyway unless you say that qs got careless. he still should have been too fast for that sand to trap him. did apoc speed up his senses or something like that? they were not clear on that. i took it as apoc predicted quicksilver's moves. that scene was dumb to me.

@christianrapper:

he still should have been too fast for that sand to trap him. did apoc speed up his senses or something like that?

Apocalypse had so many powers that weren't even established in the film. He was getting a fresh new mutant body/power every time he got too old and this went on for a millennium. So it's not so far fetched when you take all of that into account. He definitely had one to speed up his senses. It's not a passive ability though, as Quicksilver was clearly outpacing him before he used it.

He could also amplify his own powers and others(not sure if through his tech or another mutant power). So this may have applied to physical and mental attributes as well, and allowed him to boost his mental process to track him.

I agree that Quicksilver did get careless, since he might not have been going his max speed. It was easy for him to assume Apocalypse had only human level reaction.

Speed force Savitar would win but outside the speed force, quicksilver most likely takes it.

Quicksilver in a stomp.

Savitar at max speed is below Mach 45 (we now know that Savitar is future...)

Fox Quicksilver is above Mach 8000..... but only by about 10 or 20 or so.

How is Savitar even gonna see QS moving, cause you know Mach 8000 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mach 45.

QS.

@storm_calling: Regardless of that undisclosed power, QS still got tagged while moving being my point. Savitar would never get tagged by that. Future Barry is so fast he needs the suit to contain his speed force energy which they confirmed last episode.

I'll still go Savitar here overall.

@nightmare52 Agreed, had QS been that fast he never would have gotten tagged by the ground manipulated by Apocalypse. The last Flash episode confirmed future Barry/Savitar needs the suit because he's so fast, the suit stabilizes his speed as well as gives him protection. People want to say Flash has been inconsistent at times, ok well QS's just as much if not more with the mansion scene then getting tagged by Apocalypse, and having his leg broken. If QS was as fast as Flash or Savitar, he would have just vibrated out of it.

@arctika:

At the beginning of Season 2 (in Trajectory), Flash had a hard time running at Mach 3.3 even for a short period of time. Therefore, he was Mach 3.3 tops. After the Tachyon boost, his speed increased by 4 times, making it Mach 13.2.

This number is also supported by the fact that when Harry stole 2% of Barry's speed, Barry became 50 mph slower. If 2% = 50 mph, 100% = 2500 mph, which is Mach 3.26, which rounds to Mach 3.3. Again, we multiply that by 4 and get the same number: Mach 13.2.

Therefore, it is clear that current Flash's top speed is Mach 13.2. When he fought with Savitar once he was out of the speedforce, the fight was pretty equal, meaning that future Flash's speed is similar. Let's say Savitar is then Mach 15. This is still nowhere near Quicksilver, who was clocked at the following speeds by different calcs

• Mach 118
• Mach 1 656
• Mach 2 327
• Mach 8 202
• Mach 112 524

As you can see, even the lowest calc is nearly 8 times faster than Savitar's supposed speed. The highest one is, well, 7501.6 times faster than Savitar.

Quicksilver FTW.

@arctika: Lol? Quicksilver is faster casually than Savitar trying by feats, Apocalypse reacted to and tagged Quicksilver, Apocalypse can tag Savitar who is slower than Quicksilver, by virtue of common sense. If Savitar can be seen, Quicksilver would stomp him, and so would Apocalypse.

Quicksilver doesn't have the speed force so how would he be able to phase when that's a speedforce specific power? Phasing doesn't make scientifical sense and it's explained by the fact that the speed force exists, so why would Quicksilver ever be able to?

@iusemycajonas lol no he's really not, then how come he got tagged by roots? lmao...Savitar never got tagged by such a slow attack. Apocalypse would not tag Savitar when he was bodying Garrick, Barry and Wally without any effort...Savitar is faster than QS, QS is much slower and can't even vibrate out of grappling attacks. Apocalypse caught QS's punch clearly shown not at super speed....when Jesse stabbed Savitar, she did it at super speed and Savitar didn't want to defeat her, but lecture her.

Savitar would mop the floor with Apocalypse and QS if he wanted before either could react. You don't need to speed force to be able to phase through something if you're fast enough to do it. Superman has phased and vibrated through things before yet he doesn't have the speed force. MMH has phased through things, also does not have the speed force....QS just can't do it.

Sorry but no way in hell is QS faster than this....

@bladeoffury Savitar needs the suit because he's too fast....by this point he's so pretty much the fastest man alive as we saw when he bodied Garrick, Barry and Wally. Barry only tagged him outside of the suit, and apparently the suit is connected/controlled by Savitar as well. QS is slow combat speed, he couldn't vibrate out of a root attack WHILE he was running...Savitar could just vibrate out of that attack. QS is around Smallville Superman speed at best, which is still slower than Flash's speed. All these numbers are speculation with Savitar, he still bodied every other speedster so far pretty easily. If we're using half speed force half out, this is a dumb match up Savitar would murk Peter. If it's out of speed force Savitar, from the distant future, he's at least as FAST as Barry if not faster(in the suit) faster outside of it for reasons already stated, can't react to light speed CW speedster.

I see no problem why Savitar can't just do this to QS honestly...

@arctika:

QS is around Smallville Superman speed at best, which is still slower than Flash's speed.

I just LOLed at this.

Smallville Superman is hundreds of times faster than all CW speedsters combined.

-

As for the roots, Apocalypse adapted to Peter's speed, just like he adapted to everything else. He saw QS running on the same level as QS saw things, and was therefore able to trap him. And we also know nothing about the nature of Apocalypse's powers. For all we know, those "roots" were incredibly durable. We know as much about the "roots" as about Eobard's handcuffs, from which Flash couldn't phase out of btw...

QS can still shatter extremely durable materials via vibration. This glass is harder than steel. Sorry, was harder than steel...

But therein lies the problem. If Quicksilver got tagged due to the undisclosed power, it can't be measured as a lack of speed against Quicksilver, since Quicksilver was the only speedster Apocalypse dealt with. Apocalypse's reaction is measured by Quicksilver's speed. So if Quicksilver is faster than Savitar, then Apocalypse may well be fast enough to tag him as well...

The only issue with Apocalypse's reaction is whether or not Quicksilver was moving at his top speed when he attacked him(by the look on his face he probably wasn't even taking the fight too seriously). Quicksilver wasn't aware that he had a power to adapt to his speed, and therefore might've moved faster if he'd been aware.

Nothing about it really goes against Quicksilver's speed, if you really think about it.

@bladeoffury: No he's not lol Smallville Supes could not keep up with Bart Allen and never went this fast.

That's cute btw, that's glass vs. Reverse Flash cuffs not steel...too bad QS can't vibrate during combat like Flash lol but instead gets grabbed by slow ass mud lol then gets punch caught, then leg broken. Vibrate fail.

Flash vibrates entire train with people on it and himself, and vibrates out of trouble from Atom Smasher's grip around his neck.

Oh and Flash can not just vibrate/phase through glass but break it too against a dude who essentially lives in Mirrors. Talk to me when QS can jump through mirrors then throw guys through them. lol

Oh and Clark couldn't not only fail to catch Bart or run fast enough to to even run across water...pretty sure Barry on Flash outran a NUKE while running on water carrying Caitlin Snow....

Bart smoking Clark running in reverse/backwards....without even trying, then when he does dusts Clark entirely...pretty sure Savitar, Flash, Zoom or Thawne would dust Clark just as bad if not worse.

My point is regardless of this "undisclosed power" the speed force is technically an undisclosed power not fully the same as the comics, and tends to confuse casual viewers, can't be measured since it's essentially an infinite, omnipresent source of their power. I don't see how because Apocalypse tagging QS who seems slower than the CW speedsters given he can't even vibrate through things or out of gripping attacks or through walls, the most he's done is shatter glass(which anyone on CW can do let's be honest) he won't be able to tag Savitar who was literally moving insanely fast and past light speed, dragging Barry and Jay through the speed force bodying both of them....

I'm pretty sure Apocalypse would not be able to adapt to that kind of speed. Apocalypse obviously his reaction time initially is poor since QS was starring at him, making faces then punches him takes about what 30 seconds before he uses his power which seems to be adapting to other mutant powers but since the Speed Force isn't a mutant power, not so sure he'd adapt to such. Well, I'd have to disagree because apocalypse tagged his feet with mud...had he imitated his power ie like Amazo to the JL, Flash's speed and hit him the way QS hit him I'd agree, but he didn't. He just stopped him in his tracks, caught his punch and broke his leg.

lol at any cw speedster being faster then smallville clarke

lol @ people who don't know Flash, Zoom and Savitar feats. Clark can't even run on water but he's "faster" right...lol. People confuse bullet timer with speed. Not the same thing. Zoom caught a bunch of bullets one handed while holding Barry with one arm lol, Clark often moves fast enough to catch or block a few bullets. Mean while zoom did this lol, Clark has never done this...

Barry running through time, worm holds, Savitar through the speed force lol.

Lol wtf how is any CW speedster faster than Smallville Clark? But then again that user has 25 posts so...

@thespartanb345t: Don't let the post count fool you. I just took a long break from here much for these reasons, sad to see people still lowball CW speedsters though lol. How the hell isn't he slower when Clark never caught multiple bullets like Zoom has one handed no less? Sure, Clark is faster than season 1 Barry...no doubt but NOW? Savitar? Zoom, RF no. Not even close. They move so fast they travel through time on whim, create time remnants instantly, Barry created a new timeline give me a break, Clark got beat by Bart Allen running backwards when he wasn't even trying and has caught bullets individually not a ton at once.

@blackestnight93:

My thoughts exactly. Are people actually comparing a dude that is near light speed at the end of his series to Barry in some armor that cant even beat his past self who isn't even that fast

Quicksilver wins this with his eyes closed. Cw wankers are too much.

lol @ Clark moving lightspeed, what? No he never did, proof of this? Marvel wankers on here riding QS...sad. Dude gets stopped by mud and he's faster than everyone on CW, lol. Please.

Savitar destroys QS. End thread.

Barry was time traveling before he even hit mach 3. Zoom was creating time remnants before he was even mach 10. These are both facts of the show and clearly show that it doesn't take huge levels of speed to acheive those things. Barry creating flashpoint is not a speed feat. He created it by running back and stopping Thawne from killing his mother. Has nothing to do with speed. Getting beat by Bart is not a low feat considering that smallville Bart is an actual lightspeeder, keeping up with Bart puts clark at only slightly below lightspeed in running speed, which is laughably better then anything that any CW speedster has.

@blackestnight93: And yet we never got Clark's "lightspeed" speed measured, people think cause he's a bullet timer=faster than CW speedsters, they're also all bullet timers....as we've seen. Reverse Flash is so fast he's created speed mirages which I forgot about, when has Clark done this? You know you have to be fast enough to be essentially in two places at once to keep your mirage in place right? When has Clark ever done this? We've seen when Barry moves as in the first show, he perceives time like Clark did with everyone moving in slow motion, him having all the time in the world to react. They just jobber him with fights which I admit is dumb, but they do that for the show's sake to make things interesting since he should dominate everyone technically...

It is a speed feat because you have to move fast enough to TRAVEL through time and open a worm/breach hole, otherwise he'd travel constantly whenever he runs from one side of the city to the other which is clearly not the case. It has to do with speed and emotions in the show, the comics he can't even do that he needs the cosmic treadmill to do so.

Bart is OP but not lightspeed lol, if he was lightspeed he wouldn't ever get tagged, yet Lex trapped him and DD tagged him...he got tagged and knocked out by him, so by your logic DD is lightspeed reaction, yes? Flash on CW has caught bullets BEHIND his back, not even Clark has done that. CW speedsters have better speed feats than Clark, maybe not Bart in terms of the shows he showed up in but pretty sure Savitar and Zoom would give him a rough time. In fact I know they would since they breach space, time and the multiverse on whim. Bart has not done that, in fact if you read the season 11 comic he admits Black Flash is always on top of him and he died fighting him. Barry beat him in the speed force no less. You can't honestly tell me in a pure race Clark would beat Zoom, future Barry, Savitar or Reverse Flash straight up. When Flash crossed over to Supergirl, he was ahead of her and kept up with her flying speed. We've seen her change clothes as fast as Clark has in some recent shows.

QS stomps, I don't get why this isn't locked.

Watcher5000 no he does not, Sav would stomp QS realistically...

You are obsessed with Mach speeds, stop because we never got mach stats on smallville it just shows that he can do insane feats without going Mach 100, who cares? Clark's never done speed mirages, travelled through time or moved lightspeed. Flash and speedsters have, stop ignoring this. It's a valid argument, not letting it get lowballed because hating CW is the thing on this site. doesn't change the facts. Clark isn't just right behind Bart, Bart was jobbing it's so obvious to make things interesting...then when he gets serious he literally DUSTS Clark.

Again, I don't care if it's Mach 3 or Mach 100, point is Clark never time travelled hell, Bart even on Smallville never did. Not impressive considering people think they "move light speed" without proof...

Yes, the comics but I'm talking the SHOW he's not lightspeed if he was he'd literally never get tagged ever yet DD tagged him and knocked him out....not lowballing just fact. Bart got tagged by Doomsday, it's not a bad thing just fact. Even in the comics Wally got tagged and K.Oed by DD. Not a bad showing I just hate it when people act like Bart is unbeatable or untouchable. Also, to be fair while I love SV I own every season and seen every show, Bart was a guest character with not a lot to go on. What was he on like 4 shows in total in a 10 year span? The comic feat running around the world is his most impressive feat but he also proved he couldn't outrun Black Flash in that Universe, CW Flash (Barry) has beaten Black Flash in the speed force. Thawne didn't however, and Zoom well the Speed Force turned him into Black Flash. Still, considering he's the speed force's enforcer proves that's actually impressive for Barry to go toe to toe and survive him in the speed force, while outrunning time wraiths...

I doubt Clark would blitz the CW speedsters, stronger then them sure but he's not tagging them at least not Zoom, Thawne or Savitar Barry....I agree that SV Supes in terms of durability, speed is way faster than current movie Superman. I'm just pointing out the things the CW speedsters can do that Clark can't do, if SV had clocked his speed as Mach 100 or whatever I'd agree but they never did, we just see raindrops almost frozen which we've seen from CW speedster's perspective too depending on the episode, scenario.

For Flash vs. QS,

Season 1 Barry vs. QS=QS dominates.

Season 2 Barry vs. QS=Could go either way.

Season 3 Barry vs. QS=Flash dominates.

Future Barry/Savitar=demolishes QS, the fact that he's so fast he needs the suit to sustain his output and the fact that he time jumps all over, has years of experience, advanced tech and experience gives Savitar a huge edge over QS.

@arctika:

My point is regardless of this "undisclosed power" the speed force is technically an undisclosed power not fully the same as the comics, and tends to confuse casual viewers, can't be measured since it's essentially an infinite, omnipresent source of their power. I don't see how because Apocalypse tagging QS who seems slower than the CW speedsters given he can't even vibrate through things or out of gripping attacks or through walls, the most he's done is shatter glass(which anyone on CW can do let's be honest) he won't be able to tag Savitar who was literally moving insanely fast and past light speed, dragging Barry and Jay through the speed force bodying both of them....

I'm pretty sure Apocalypse would not be able to adapt to that kind of speed. Apocalypse obviously his reaction time initially is poor since QS was starring at him, making faces then punches him takes about what 30 seconds before he uses his power which seems to be adapting to other mutant powers but since the Speed Force isn't a mutant power, not so sure he'd adapt to such. Well, I'd have to disagree because apocalypse tagged his feet with mud...had he imitated his power ie like Amazo to the JL, Flash's speed and hit him the way QS hit him I'd agree, but he didn't. He just stopped him in his tracks, caught his punch and broke his leg.

A lot of what you are saying has been taken out of context.

1. Quicksilver didn't see the attack that ensnared his foot. So it's possible that had he been aware, he could've dodged this attack or destroyed it before it could affect him.

2. It's not just mud. Apocalypse has transmutation. He can make any substance incredibly light or dense. He de-atomized the structures in Cairo into sand and then formed them into a giant pyramid. He made body armor for his horseman out of sand, Magneto's helmet and Angel's metal wings. He can change the inorganic molecules of anything. Saying that Apocalypse caught him with his sand powers isn't quite as simple as you may think. I agree though, that Savitar can phase through the sand. But that isn't the only way Apocalypse can attack him. The point to remember here is Apocalypse caught Quicksilver because he was fast enough to, and the same would apply to Savitar if Quicksilver is as fast(or faster) than him.

3. Vibrating in the sense of phasing is a speedforce ability and so is time traveling. The characters in the Flash show don't need to go above their established speeds to accomplish this because It has more to do with the speedforce granting them those abilities. Quicksilver can't do it because it isn't related to the type of powers that he has. He can only run fast. He doesn't tap into a force to grant him abilities like the Speedforce.

4. The glass that Quicksilver shattered was a special form of ballistic glass that was state of the art for the prison(designed by Trask). It could withstand more pressure than steel. While I don't doubt the other speedsters can do this, it does prove how powerful Quicksilver's vibrating abilities are. Others here were claiming that Quicksilver had no feats to suggest that he could damage durable objects.

@arctika said:

@bladeoffury: No he's not lol Smallville Supes could not keep up with Bart Allen and never went this fast.

You do realize that this Savitar is not the one being used in the fight, right? The Savitar in the GIFs you posted is indeed fast af, but that's beause he is not technically there. Current Savitar is out of the speedforce making him around Barry's level of speed. I would love to see you post current Savitar's feats that would put him above Peter and especially Clark.

That's cute btw, that's glass vs. Reverse Flash cuffs not steel...

Except that glass is harder than steel, according to an official Xmen DoFP website.

too bad QS can't vibrate during combat like Flash lol but instead gets grabbed by slow ass mud lol

As mentioned earlier, that mud was moving extremely fast to catch Quicksilver.

then gets punch caught Vibrate fail.

by an extremely powerful being who adapted to his speed. Speaking of fails...

If I were to mirror your words: Flash gets his punched caught, and gets rag dolled by a slow a** gorilla. Except I acknowledge that this Gorilla is a decent opponent. It's time you acknowledged that Apocalypse is much more so.

Flash vibrates entire train with people on it and himself, and vibrates out of trouble from Atom Smasher's grip around his neck.

Cool. The fact that Quicksilver cannot phase doesn't make him slower than Flash, feats speak otherwise. As far as we know, Savitar cannot phase (since we have never seen him do it). Does that make him slower than Kid Flash, who can phase?

Oh and Flash can not just vibrate/phase through glass but break it too against a dude who essentially lives in Mirrors. Talk to me when QS can jump through mirrors then throw guys through them. lol

Now I'm starting to think that you just watched the action scenes of the whole show and didn't listen to the words. Flash was given a special technological gadget by future Flash which would allow him to follow Mirror Master into his mirror dimension.

Oh and Clark couldn't not only fail to catch Bart or run fast enough to to even run across water...

How do you know that Clark can't run on water? He simply never tried it on screen. Look, Clark traveled halfway around the world in 9 seconds, CW speedsters are really out of their league here.

pretty sure Barry on Flash outran a NUKE while running on water carrying Caitlin Snow....

A nuke's shockwave velocity is as fast as any other explosion. Barry outran an explosion? Nice. Quicksilver ran into an explosion, saved dozens of mutants, while messing around, moonwalking, fixing people's hair, and stealing drinks. Beat that.

Bart smoking Clark running in reverse/backwards....without even trying, then when he does dusts Clark entirely...pretty sure Savitar, Flash, Zoom or Thawne would dust Clark just as bad if not worse.

Bart is the fastest live action speedster. What makes you think Savitar, Flash, Zoom, and Eobard can keep up with him?

Just a question, how fast do you think CW speedsters are?

@storm_calling

I beg to differ, I believe people are taking what I'm saying out of context, I own every Xmen movie, watch every Flash show(one guy here didn't even know Flash is attosecond in the comics I mean come on now, it's obvious some people here don't follow Flash and just assume things) This is really my only issue in that regard.

Ok, let's say he wasn't aware that Apocolypes was fighting back with that attack...given his speed he should have at least been able to vibrate out of a mud grip....he did not.

I know but it's still a grapple regardless, could have been a vine, metal whatever QS was trapped and didn't vibrate out of it which seemed odd given his speed. I'm not disputing Apocalypse's abilities just that QS should have been able to vibrate out of that given what he has done in the Xmen movies...all I'm saying, otherwise I agree with everything else you said except Apocalypse catching Savitar, he's simply a better, faster speedster than QS is at the end of the day and more experienced, cutthroat. Even if Apocalypse adapted to Savitar, Savitar could just vibrate out of it, make himself intangible which would give Apocalypse issues. I mean the way he died he didn't adapt to being vaporized, so I believe there are things he couldn't adapt to.

Yes, and no. Yes it's an ability given to them by the speed force, but that being said it allows them to move so fast to time travel, create speed mirages, time remnants, vibrate, phase etc things QS simply can't do. My issue here is people assume he's way faster because of mansion scene and butterfly moving slowly...we've seen things like this in Flash at times, this is why I don't believe those who are saying "QS stomps Savitar, Flash, Zoom etc" even watch the Flash otherwise they'd know that's not accurate for a few reasons. QS in the comics has actually time travelled and done more things like create cyclones....but in the movies, he does not appear to have this ability to any degree.

4. The glass that Quicksilver shattered was a special form of ballistic glass that was state of the art for the prison(designed by Trask). It could withstand more pressure than steel. While I don't doubt the other speedsters can do this, it does prove how powerful Quicksilver's vibrating abilities are. Others here were claiming that Quicksilver had no feats to suggest that he could damage durable objects.

Yes, I agree I'm just saying the CW speedsters can and have vibrated out of just as crazy situations be it ice, a wall, truck, a human etc, etc. I definitely agree that QS can damage durable inanimate objects, things etc and that he'd even beat Season 1 Flash no doubt, but in terms of pure speed, abilities etc I feel Savitar here is just on another level. I mean I've posted his feats or just a few of his many for this season and people ignore it the fact that he's moving so fast he can't even be seen by anyone besides a speedster(who are connected to the speedforce) so by the show's rules, technically I'm not even sure QS would be able to see Savitar honestly. Out of SF sure, but in it? Going to say no on that one.

Jobbing and taunting are the same thing, either way Bart was NOT going all out until the end. The video is proof...yes I agree Flash tries to get scientific which is good, but SV did not my issue is people making false assumptions with "Clark is lightspeed this, attosecond that" kind of posts without any factual evidence behind it.

Actually it is, again you still need to MOVE fast enough to time travel. Deal with it. And neither Bart nor Clark(regardless of their supposedly faster speeds than CW Flash speedsters) never did this.

Yes, but the difference Barry is the main character in Flash. Bart was NOT, and thus less appearances so we're going on less showings as well which goes both ways mind you. Sure he's insanely OP fast, but he's also gotten tagged by DD and knocked out. Flash got tagged a lot during season 1 which is understandable, he was nooby. Sometimes by season 2 and rarely season 3...but let's talk about his high end feats, beating Thawne a few times? Beating Zoom? Holding his own at times against Savitar(his future self gone evil) can't be ignored either...the show jobbers him for sake of making things interesting, it's so obvious. It's one issue a lot of fans have with the show are the inconsistent showings of Barry, one show he struggles over dumb things another he dominates or does something crazy....let's be honest, if he won all the time on the show or even in the comics it would get boring. Bart they could afford to do that because he rarely showed up and was already fast. Meanwhile, Clark even had weaker showings at times. Regardless of his stellar speed could NOT run on water...for someone as fast as him, shouldn't be an issue where as even CW Flash has done this carrying people while running away from nukes going off....with very little experience mind you. Those Batman's are entirely different characters though, Bart as you said is the same character it doesn't alter the fact that he's been tagged and died to Black Flash in SV Universe though. All I'm saying.

Well we can agree to disagree, he's not taking their heads off if he can't tag them so good luck with that. He's not tagging Savitar don't care what anyone here says. The dude was moving so fast only speedsters could see him in the SF...Clark would be screwed.

@arctika:

Watcher5000 no he does not, Sav would stomp QS realistically...

@arctika

pretty sure Barry on Flash outran a NUKE while running on water carrying Caitlin Snow....

I don't believe it was a nuke. They made it clear that it wasn't nuclear despite what they had speculated, and I don't believe it was while running over water either.

@storm_calling: @arctika:

This thread's later posts seem to be filled with those on either side using good arguments for the capabilities of the character they're siding with, but simultaneously severely low balling the other side. Here's my take.

The arguments depicting the capability of Savitar and Quicksilver I largely agree with. Well, except with the lightning feats for Barry(to demonstrate Savitar's speed). It's the rule rather than the exception that superhero writers never bother investigating how fast lightning is, and largely treat it as just vaguely supersonic, which is evident when these characters fail to deal with things many, many times slower than lightning consistently. This can't be more true for those like Barry. Savitar's speed feat for his first encounter with Barry nearly being in several spots before a gps can locate him properly still holds in my opinion, especially since that had to have been deliberate from the writers.

Now, as for the low balling of Quicksilver, I'm completely with Storm Calling. His posts almost perfectly sum it up, but to further add to the argument (unless I'm forgetting about one of his post, in which case sorry), It's self-evident that Apocalypse sped up his reaction time. Logically, there can be no other answer. Apocalypse could not perceive Quicksilver at all prior to that one action, as evident for Quicksilver stopping, mocking him, then beating the crap out of him. He goes from that, to being able to track Quicksilver (he was not using an AOE). It's implicit that he was enhancing himself, so no, he can't use this to low ball Quicksilver. The mansion feat still stands, and Apocalypse is the exception rather than the rule even if this weren't the case.

In addition, you can't make a genuine argument that Quicksilver not phasing through sand. Phasing is a technique, not a physical trait. It has speed as a requirement, but not all speedsters would be able to use it because it has to be learned. This can just as easily be explained by A. The writers of X-Men decided they didn't want to write in phasing as a speed trick or B. Quicksilver never learned this as a technique. This has nothing to do with the Quicksilver's actual speed. This would be like saying characters from other series that travel at relativistic speeds are not as fast as the CW speedsters because they don't time travel, when this is related to CW's own rules.

For the low balling of Savitar, some have been citing that since Savitar has been tagged by Barry or Jesse, that this means he's not as fast as he was, or he's not that much faster than Barry. I disagree. This is more a demonstration of the the massive amounts of not giving a crap the writers of the flash give about scaling or consistency than Savitar's abilities. Best example would be the bouts between Barry and The Rival. There's no doubt that Barry is an absurd league above the Rival. After all, the Rival went on a while being stopped or challenged by Kid Flash despite Wally inheriting his flashpoint counterpart's powers not reaching mach 2, which Barry long since surpassed, by more than 4 times. if the numbers aren't to be trusted, then we go back to feats (which frankly, are more impressive). Despite this, there were drawn-out confrontations between the Rival and Barry. Also, CW couldn't have beaten into our head more that Savitar is faster than Barry by a long shot. Even if you discount the graph made by Julian to show the disparity between Barry and Savitar (showing a 4X increase is laughable compared to Savitar), Savitar is essentially, a faster, more experienced Barry that has a suite specifically designed to prevent him from killing himself, because the energy he creates from moving so fast is so great. Since Barry hasn't even remotely shown this problem, it's indisputable that Savitar is leaps and bounds above Barry. The times he's been tagged are either negligence on Savitar's part, or just very, very lazy writing on CW's part.

I say, given the feats, Savitar's feat of registering in multiple areas in a city at once is a better feat than Quicksilver showing superspeed in what's already a slow-motion explosion. I think their feats are of a similar tier, but Savitar's is better. However, the worst enemy of the CW speedsters is the inconsistency of the writers. I'll stick with Savitar's first showing feat as long as it's not blatantly contradicted multiple times later.

@DesolatedStorm I've found the general consensus on this site sadly, is lowballing CW speedsters and Flash in general wayyyyy more than QS topics with the general topics IMHO. I mean there's another thread of Iron Man vs. Savitar and people voting higher for Iron Man...like really? lol not so say DC doesn't have their nutty fanboys, but I've noticed lately seems to be more Marvel fans thinking QS can beat anyone which is simply not true.

While that's true that the writers tend to be inconsistent at times, they try to explain it most of the time and there was one show where Barry DID dodge Lightning while rescuing Joe from a car...that's pretty damn fast reaction speed considering how fast lightning is. Zoom catching lightning, then throwing it back, Savitar well he kind of uses his suit I admit but it's future Barry so he probably was used to that anyway.

While that's true that the mansion feat was a good feat, it still stands to reason that Apocalypse regardless of how, why stopped QS in his tracks and bodied him. Adapting I believe he did, but QS given his abilities should have at least been able to vibrated out of the mud shackle. I get it transmutation, it would be no different of Firestorm holding down Flash's leg but pretty sure Flash would vibbed out of it. Know what I mean?

That aside, it's still a bit silly to have QS NOT vibrate to a degree to either break that hold by shattering it(ie like he did with the glass) since it was sand/mud afterall....or to vibrate out of it which let's say he can't do, ok he still could have broke it at least instead of trying to run with the mud holding him. Just saying, they have QS do all these crazy things, show him as if he's stopping time but can't get out of a little grip? IDK just looked dumb and came off inconsistent the way they've been showing his powers...

While I do agree on the Savitar getting tagged reasons, it clearly wasn't showing him going all out either. Notice in both scenarios, he's mocking Barry and not speeding around him and well he can't kill him because he won't exist even though he says "well that may not work" it would realistically because of the last show, cisco wiping his memory clearly directly effected Savitar in the future...those instances Savitar was toying with Jesse and Barry in different ways, Barry we know why he can't kill him and Jesse because he had "plans for her" notice he had a few shots to kill her or harm her but didn't, then she stabbed him in the shoulder and he took off. The Savitar being 1 billion times better, faster than Barry I agree should be common sense and Cisco's trackers as pointed out by cisco when he first came out of the speed force wasn't exactly easy to track.

I do agree with your overall consensus that Savitar is too much for QS at the end of the day, and that the writers at times are a bit inconsistent but I think they do that to nerf Flash for obvious reasons....to make the show more interesting and not dull having Flash dominate everyone all the time which technically he should do with little issues.

Wait...this thread was made 5 months ago, clearly long before Savitar escaped the SF....so I'd have to disagree with you there. Clearly the OP made this topic when Savitar was still in the SF if anything which would make this a bad stomp in his favor. However, out of SF I think it would be more interesting I admit but Savitar still has a lot more experience and abilities going for him here over Peter so I'd probably lean Savitar anyway namely because of who he is and how he's already bodied other speedsters this season.

Ok, nevermind I just realized I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that the cuffs Thawne put on Barry were "steel" they were some sort of speed force dampening vice as to why Barry couldn't phase through it, what I was saying in that regard but for the military grade glass yes it's durable. Though like the other guy said I agree that I'm sure if put in the same situation, I am pretty confident the CW speedsters could do the same in that scenario or well just phase through it if they had to.

Yes, and Gorilla Grodd is also an extremely powerful telepathic, telekinetic, smart gorilla who's evil....fighting a nooby Flash, pretty sure Flash also oneshotted Solovar with a vibrate punch, a gorilla who pretty much beat down Grodd like nothing then there's this too...

You can feel free to ignore this now or accept it that just proves my point when the writers don't write Flash dumb or jobbing, he clearly does damage when need be. I mean he put down a gorilla who pretty much bodied Grodd....and hit Grodd fast enough to not only have Grodd NOT be able to react but with enough force to push him through a portal to Earth 2..

Savitar is a future, evil, more experienced Barry...Barry current can phase, to not assume he can't phase is ridiculous just because we haven't seen him do it. It's the same character in a armor suit, why wouldn't he be able to phase? He only wears the suit so the energy has a place to go to without harming his body because he's so fast.

Yes I'm aware of the gadget made by cisco but my point is, Flash still beat MM at his own game when the game was fair. Notice, Barry said that MM's powers wouldn't effect them, he could follow him wherever he went yet he still escaped the mirror and shattered it in the process. The main reason why I posted that was to show Barry can shatter glass objects too that are more or less another dimension in this case or a door way at least since you used QS breaking tough glass...

You're joking right? Now I'm thinking you didn't watch SV and just this one scene because anyone who watched SV knew Clark never ran on water....if he could, he would. Common sense. Just like if he could fly early on on whim, he would have but we all know that story. He only flew when A. Mind controlled B. dreaming or C. last season. over a period of 10 years.....When he failed to chase Bart, this was season 4 not exactly super nooby Clark. At least with Barry jobbing it was mostly the first 2 seasons for the most part, this was season 4 of Smallville though he should have at least been able to run across the water given his speed. It makes no sense for him not to. I get it he couldn't fly but running on water should be nothing for Superman, even pre full powered Supes. No they're not, CW speedsters would dust Clark. Otherwise he wouldn't have stopped when Bart hit the water, notice he was behind him then stops right before the water front appears lol...but so sure he can run on water even though he couldn't. He also ran to florida with Bart which is land, no water from Kansas and to South America in another episode which again is on land Mexico leads directly to South America which of course Mexico is connected to the USA on land...When did clark ever run around the world? The only time I recall him going around the world was when he was mind controlled by Jor-El as one of his tests, and he flew and caught up to Lex's Jet, got a stone then flew out of there....

Actually, no a nuke's explosion mass is way LARGER than a mere mansion bomb which didn't expand past a block radius if that much mean while Firestorm's nuke blast was not only higher velocity, but MUCH larger scale, and chasing Barry while carrying Caitlin. All QS had to do was run a few people out 50 feet or so and he didn't even run out everyone technically, he threw some people out in bedding, pushed other people into a pool, sheets etc to save time. Barry has saved tons of people from a crashing train in and out, in and out before it crashed....just as good a feat. Oh and Barry also outran entire Central City magic explosion from Savage's skepter, you know the one that literally vaporized the entire city except for Barry running away from it and back in time a day? Yeah....some how I don't see QS doing that. A nuke going off has a much larger shockwave mass ratio compared to a building blowing up.

Bart is faster than Clark, but not the fastest live action speedster. He's not faster than Savitar in the speed force, he couldn't even beat Black Flash again if he was faster he would have done so. Barry actually held his own and outran, survived Black Flash in the speed force....mean while Bart died in his universe from Black Flash. So...yeah. Fastest CW speedster? I think not. One of the most, sure but not the fastest. Depends on the speedster, if Bart is so fast then how did he get tagged by not just DD(which I'll give him a break on cause it's DD) but by a human clocking him behind with a pistol whip?) Speedsters are supposed to have enhanced senses and reaction, didn't seem very fast there now did he? I'm pretty sure future Barry, Thawne, Zoom and Savitar could match if not beat Bart. Definitely SF Savitar hands down. I will say Bart is much faster than Jesse, Wally, Jay and Rival though but you can't deny that the others are on a different level...

@arctikasaid:

"Ok, let's say he wasn't aware that Apocolypes was fighting back with that attack...given his speed he should have at least been able to vibrate out of a mud grip....he did not."

This goes back to what I said about Apocalypse's powers. We don't know that he could, given all that Apocalypse could do with his transmutation abilities. His sand powers were only limited by his imagination.

"I beg to differ, I believe people are taking what I'm saying out of context, I own every Xmen movie, watch every Flash show(one guy here didn't even know Flash is attosecond in the comics I mean come on now, it's obvious some people here don't follow Flash and just assume things) This is really my only issue in that regard."

I do think Flash's speeds are underestimated here, but it seems moreso with Quicksilver.

It was actually sand being reinforced by Apocalypse's mind. Given what he could do, I think it's plausible that Apocalypse was able to hold him with his powers and prevent Peter from escaping. But there is an argument that could be made for Quicksilver as well though. He probably could've vibrated to escape or something. It was the first time he'd ever encountered someone who was fast enough to stop him.

Apocalypse did adapt to being vaporized and having his mind crippled by Phoenix. He was beginning to put up shields(blocking hers and Cyclops' powers) and was about to teleport away to safety before Storm switched sides and stunned him with her lightning. Had she not done that he would've escaped and recovered. It really did take the combined power of the X-men to bring him down.

I do think Savitar would fair better than Quicksilver in a fight against Apocalypse as you said though. Given what all he could do(phasing, lightning attacks, healing factor, armor, etc.).

Yes, and no. Yes it's an ability given to them by the speed force, but that being said it allows them to move so fast to time travel, create speed mirages, time remnants, vibrate, phase etc things QS simply can't do.

I don't think it's ever been said that it simply increases their speed to do this though. Unless I missed something. From how I understand it, the faster they go, the more they are able to tap into this force to do all of those incredible things. I don't believe it's all related to speed, which is why we don't see Quicksilver doing things like this. There are different laws of physics in his world that don't apply.

"Yes, I agree I'm just saying the CW speedsters can and have vibrated out of just as crazy situations be it ice, a wall, truck, a human etc, etc. I definitely agree that QS can damage durable inanimate objects, things etc and that he'd even beat Season 1 Flash no doubt, but in terms of pure speed, abilities etc I feel Savitar here is just on another level. I mean I've posted his feats or just a few of his many for this season and people ignore it the fact that he's moving so fast he can't even be seen by anyone besides a speedster(who are connected to the speedforce) so by the show's rules, technically I'm not even sure QS would be able to see Savitar honestly. Out of SF sure, but in it? Going to say no on that one."

I agree, Quicksilver would not be able to see him and by default would lose. But this had to do with Savitar being trapped within the speedforce in the first place. He no longer has this ability since his escape, so it no longer applies here. That is, unless we are using that version of Savitar here.

@desolatorstorm: I did address Apocalypse using an ability to accelerate his speed! :)

but it's fine. I'm glad you see and understand the feat, and how it doesn't take away from Quicksilver's.

With Jesse and Barry attacking Savitar: I also addressed that it has been established that Barry can sometimes move faster than normal in periods of heightened stress.. A lot of the high end instances involved Barry not being clocked(the lightning from Weather Wizard for example).Dr Wells/Eobard Thawne addressed this in the episode Barry reversed time back a day while he was trying to stop Weather Wizard's tsunami.

In both cases with Barry and Jesse, their emotions were heightened, and they were probably moving much faster than normal.

@arctika: also he was running around the whole city with in seconds in s2 after getting out the speedforce ppl fail to remember that

@storm_calling I guess the fact that they were a little vague on how his powers worked didn't help, but we definitely learned that QS's amazing speed and perception aside, he clearly can't do much else with them other than run, perceive events faster, vibrate surfaces so to speak.

I would respectfully disagree on that one, I think Flash and the CW speedsters in general here are being lowballed significantly....scenes in the speed force of Savitar manhandling Barry or Zoom literally dragging Barry across the city from point A to point B in a second or two to me is far more impressive than anything QS has done when he's running. It's like they show him in that Smallville perspective and people automatically think ok, because everything else is shown slower he's faster than everyone else(ok, but does that mean faster than CW speedsters too) notice with SV being an exception, and not even all the time as we saw with Bart and Clark sometimes they were just schoom here, schhoom there. CW does this a lot too, they only showed Barry's perception a few times where everyone else is just as still as when shown from QS Fox movies. You follow what I'm saying? So naturally people seem to think that ok, that slower perspective means =faster than everyone else on live film with speed automatically. Fox QS uses the Smallville effect, which notice Flash hardly if ever uses and I believe a lot of people judge off of this effect alone which is kind of an unfair case for CW speedsters because we don't see that perspective from their viewpoint but yet they move insanely fast from spot to spot.

Yeah I agree that Apocalypse probably adapted no doubt to the other mutant's powers but, not sure if QS's were nullified I just think he couldn't vibrate because he couldn't do it but you'd think he'd be capable of such. Know what I mean? Who knows...

Of course, but Phoenix was the main key there in ridding him for good. The others helped no doubt, I just saw it as them holding him in place while she was the death blow.

Yeah I mean, it's well you know who Savitar is that alone makes him dangerous because it's essentially evil flash. Flash in general is crazy if without morals so imagine an experienced, future, more armored, no morals Flash you know? Not to say QS is crappy just that Savitar can do more I agree.

Well, just saying that the SF allows them to tap into these powers both using speed and well allowing them to expand their abilities more so what I'm saying. Like the speed force allows/enables speedsters in DC to do various insane things, most of which typically involve speed to a degree but others just come naturally like the perceptional awareness is more of an automatic enhanced senses almost naturally. This is true and different physics of comics compared to real life too as well(not you but I've noticed others in this thread and the other Savitar threads try to use "real science" as an argument mean while the speed force there's nothing scientific about it you know what I mean? But I agree, Marvel's Universe works differently there is no speed force there like in DC.

I agree, Quicksilver would not be able to see him and by default would lose. But this had to do with Savitar being trapped within the speedforce in the first place. He no longer has this ability since his escape, so it no longer applies here. That is, unless we are using that version of Savitar here.

I know, I agree. I'm just using/going by the thread's date/rules where Savitar at the time of this thread's creation was in the speed force. Which the OP used that version, I agree with you now he's out but just pointing out when this was created it's clearly that version of Savitar who is just insanely OP and stupid fast. We'll have to see how Barry(current Flash) beats him, maybe they'll have to find a way to kill him since trapping him is just getting rid of him temporarily essentially.

Thanks for being respectful btw, appreciate it. You seem pretty cool.

That's a good point, as I recall Cisco's systems couldn't keep track of him because he was moving so fast if memory serves me correctly. When they tried to track him.

@arctika: savitar has gotten tagged by a lot of slow people. He gets tagged every show.

@christianrapper: No he doesn't, if he gets tagged it's by Flash/Barry. lol he's the only one who tags him. He was toying with Jesse and didn't want to fight her. QS got tagged by Apocalypse...

@arctika

The post thing was a joke.

sad to see people still lowball CW speedsters though lol.

They are complete idiotic fighters, very inconsistent, and not even that fast. Some have crazy feats that require immeasurable speed, but they are downgraded to Mach 3-4 later on. I'm pretty sure that physics in CWverse are drastically different, because lightning isn't light speed if Barry can react to it. (But maybe the speed force does something to it?)

How the hell isn't he slower when Clark never caught multiple bullets like Zoom has one handed no less?

Yeah I don't remember Silver Surfer doing that ever in the comics. CW Zoom>Surfer confirmed.

Just because Clark never did ONE particular thing doesn't mean he can't. He has better feats that puts him way above the CW heroes.

Sure, Clark is faster than season 1 Barry...no doubt but NOW? Savitar? Zoom, RF no. Not even close. They move so fast they travel through time on whim, create time remnants instantly,

Yes, but time travel CLEARLY doesn't require you to be FTL in their universe. Barry does it, but he's only Mach 13 with a tacheon device.

Barry created a new timeline give me a break, Clark got beat by Bart Allen running backwards when he wasn't even trying and has caught bullets individually not a ton at once.

Yeah Bart isn't part of CW... and is that supposed to be some sort of anti-feat for Clark? You realize that Bart is FTL in that show, right?

Dude he literally watches camera flash (which is light) stay in place for seconds before it starts to go away. That makes him massively FTL.

Runs across the world in seconds.

@arctika:

Barry himself stated that Mach 50 isn't a real thing, meaning that he cannot dream of going this fast. Quicksilver's speed far exceeds this number, as calculated on numerous occasions.

Mach 2 327:

Mach 8 202:

Mach 112 524:

As you can see, even his lowest calc is incredible.

What do you think Flash's/CW speedsters' speed is? Please give me a number, and we'll work with it.

@bladeoffury: And yet still gets tagged by a mud grip...

You realize all YT vids are speculation unless the show/movie confirms such with numbers right? If he was 112 mach he'd never be stopped by a dumb mud transmutation....he's fast but I don't believe he's anywhere that fast.

Just because Barry said that means nothing, he's said he "can't run up buildings" yet has done it, said "I can't do this guys" yet has done it....him lacking confidence means little as he'll become FTL and the fastest man alive in the future via savitar or even beyond that should he not become Savitar.

I'll post feats addressing the other guy you can watch the GIFS that prove my point comparing Barry to SV which are very comparable and yet SV would wreck QS with speed. So pretty sure since Barry's feats are comparable to SV, he'd beat QS pretty easily if he had to. Those posts I already post prove QS has never moved on par with Savitar's speed when he was bodying Barry, Jay, Wally etc....you can't even see him he's moving so fast. QS you can see move in spurts at least.

Watch the scene below with Barry catching the bullet then putting it at the guy's shoulder, no different than QS's scene in Xmen films.

@thespartanb345t:A joke? Wait....post thing? What are you talking about?

That makes no sense why wouldn't lightning be light speed? People use the "Clark saving Lois moving his face before Camera goes off" as light speed, but Flash moving faster than lightning isn't lightspeed? ok....lol

That's not true, it just may be measured differently but Barry has dodged lightning and moved fast enough to clearly create and throw his own, Zoom has caught it....we haven't seen Clark move that fast to do either, in fact he got struck once by lightning as I recall. But he has dodged bullets, then again so has Flash. While it's true that at times the speedsters have been shown inconsistent, they still have impressive feats like the train feats, the outrunning nukes, city wide blasts against Savage, running through time etc, etc

I wouldn't say idiotic they just jobber due to plot, I blame the writers....they do it so it's more interesting to watch and speedsters don't dominate all the time. I get why they do it but it's dumb I admit.

Ok, I don't know why you're mentioning SS when I clearly said Clark in Smallville...catching multiple bullets like CW Zoom....I'm going to assume this is some type of humor or you misunderstood me some where.

Would have to disagree, his best feats are running on LAND(again not water), he couldn't even fly fully til season 10 and his best feat was the finale pushing an entire planet out of Earth's orbit. Not sure that's better than running back in time and literally creating a new timeline all together, I'd say that's just as good if not better since you're literally changing history....Bullet timer both have the feats, and keep in mind unlike Clark, Flash isn't invincible when he goes into a collapsing building to save people. Outrunning nuke level attacks, in some cases carrying someone across water for miles, putting out fires on skyscrapers, saving multiple people instantly from a crashing train, changing time, catching bullets, catching bullets behind his head without looking, vibrating through objects, undoing tornadoes, saving people from falling buildings(one of which Supergirl even), breaching the multiverse etc, so I disagree. His feats are solid not to mention becoming Savitar or at least a version of him....and him getting so fast he needs a suit to contain his energy dispersal. That is also not one particular thing, Clark while amazing can't do A LOT of things Flash can do, vibrate through objects, run as fast as Flash overall lightspeed, leaped into a anomaly, helped close it, time travel on his own power, create tornadoes with his hands, unwind tornadoes by running(we saw Clark jump into one to save Lana, he didn't unwind it and doesn't until the distant future when he can fly), doesn't run on water for whatever reason, has never caught multiple bullets a la Zoom style or behind his head like Flash did so there's several things actually...

And yet the tachyon device allowed him to breach the multiverse by becoming faster and 4x as fast as Zoom was.Wells of Earth 2 confirmed this as did Cisco, Caitlin etc so yes speed does make a difference, just because it's an ability doesn't mean it doesn't require speed to do so. This is like saying well Clark can only vaporize bullets because heat vision is a power, so not impressive...you're lowballing Flash here. Come on now. The first time he went in the past by accident pretty damn sure he was moving as fast if not faster than Clark ever did to stop the Tsunami....when you just saw literally a streak moving around the city back and forth. Wells confirmed in a clip shown here that as fast as Barry is Mach 2 when he time travelled, Zoom is more than twice that fast....which means other speedsters have been faster casually than Early Barry at least. That and the show where he fought Trajectory, he had to leap over a huge bridge gap and went Mach 3.3 accerration instantly which even the guy in the video breakdown admits it's insane. When he went faster than Zoom via tachyon device he was calculated at being Mach 13+ which is crazy fast, pretty sure that's faster than Clark's speed since he broke the damn multiversal barrier running accidentally mind you in a few seconds, Clark ran from Kansas to South America(again not even around the world) in a few seconds. Flash ran so fast he ran literally to another EARTH in the Multiverse in that same timeframe....that couldn't have been done without the speed amp.

He's apart of the CW being from SV since technically SV was still on when CW took over...and proof he's FTL? This is such a myth on the show he's never been shown to be such, if he were he wouldn't have gotten knocked out from a damn pistol whip, FTL would mean he'd react to such a weak attack. The DD I'll let slide since it's DD but not a pistol Whip, not even Barry got knocked out from such a weak attack. Do you want me to post the clip? In the comic later on he became faster running around the world in seconds etc but still died against Black Flash.

That doesn't make him FTL because of the way the show interprets Clark and the camera moving slowly, again they've showed this similar effect on Flash too...and much like Savitar's insane speed clearly being FTL as we've seen this season, like the guy in the video states chances are once Flash is over he'll easily surpass FTL speed like nothing much like Clark couldn't FLY fully until the finale of SV....

This scene Flash is literally moving so fast around the room before Iris's sugar even hits the coffee, as if time stops...again no different than Smallville's effect of Clark's perception. Then dominator scene, again moving so fast everything stops moving to him....

No different than this scene in SV....

Flash saving Joe from literally shooting himself in head from his own gun point blank...

I'm aware of Clark's speed but Flash also perceives time the same way, literally no different look. When Clark moves it's like people are standing still, well when Flash move literally same effect in fact one clip he has time after the bullet it shot which sooner from the gun the higher the exiting velocity as the bullet slows the longer it's in the air, yet Flash not only catches the bullet from the gun almost immediately but has time to catch it, move it at the guy's shoulder a la Quick Silver Xmen style and run over to another guy pushing his gun downward.

Good video breakdown of how Savitar's speed is and that he needs the suit to contain his speed force energy or he could destroy himself with his own speed.

Again, that's not Clark running around the world. That would imply him running over water to Egypt, Europe etc. He's running to South America ON LAND. Pretty sure Flash and any speedster on CW can and has done that depending on the plot...as well as on water. Flash has run on water on several occasions, but 2 of them were carrying someone and yet still fast enough to run on water...Clark however can't even do it alone, which raises questions. He also ran back on the water escaping her explosion, in another instance he carried cait outrunning a nuke on water....

Flash running so fast across Central City, through the speed force multiverse into National city catches Supergirl out of a falling window, then runs her some where in the middle of the country on her Earth in seconds....that is just as good if not more impressive than clark speeding to south america feat because he did so while saving someone else besides breaching the multiverse at the same time.

Savitar stomps

@arctika:

A joke? Wait....post thing? What are you talking about?

I meant that when I mentioned your post amount I was joking.

That makes no sense why wouldn't lightning be light speed? People use the "Clark saving Lois moving his face before Camera goes off" as light speed, but Flash moving faster than lightning isn't lightspeed? ok....lol

You know how Barry has lightning when he runs? You know how his powers came from lightning? The speedforce and his powers are so thoroughly connected to lightning, I'm sure that the speed force interferes with such things. Because there is no way that Barry is FTL.

That's not true, it just may be measured differently but Barry has dodged lightning and moved fast enough to clearly create and throw his own, Zoom has caught it....we haven't seen Clark move that fast to do either, in fact he got struck once by lightning as I recall. But he has dodged bullets, then again so has Flash. While it's true that at times the speedsters have been shown inconsistent, they still have impressive feats like the train feats, the outrunning nukes, city wide blasts against Savage, running through time etc, etc

Yeah but like I said, those must not require the amount of speed that they require in our world. Star Labs says that you need to be certain speeds for feats consistently, but yet real science calculates them to require FTL speeds.

I wouldn't say idiotic they just jobber due to plot, I blame the writers....they do it so it's more interesting to watch and speedsters don't dominate all the time. I get why they do it but it's dumb I admit.

So EVERY EPISODE that he doesn't fight a speedster is due to PIS and plot? Not how it works. I agree that if it happens occasionally it could be due to plot. However, Barry is CONSISTENTLY losing to people with human reactions. That is applied to the character, since it occurs so often.

Ok, I don't know why you're mentioning SS when I clearly said Clark in Smallville...catching multiple bullets like CW Zoom....I'm going to assume this is some type of humor or you misunderstood me some where.

It's an example to show why your logic doesn't work. (Hypothetically) If Silver Surfer never specifically caught a bullet while doing a hang-ten on his board and backflipping, that doesn't mean that he isn't as fast as a character that performed that specific feat.

Would have to disagree, his best feats are running on LAND(again not water),

Okay, but so ae Barry's best feats. Someone who is MFTL can run on water no question, even if they've never been shown to.

he couldn't even fly fully til season 10 and his best feat was the finale pushing an entire planet out of Earth's orbit.

Not even speed though... irrelevant feat.

Not sure that's betterthan running back in time and literally creating a new timeline all together, I'd say that's just as good if not better since you're literally changing history....

Unless the physics of that universe only requires Mach 3 to travel back in time.

Bullet timer both have the feats, and keep in mind unlike Clark, Flash isn't invincible when he goes into a collapsing building to save people.

Okay... but Clark doesn't waste his speed because he knows his durability. If he doesn't HAVE to do the work, why would he?

Outrunning nuke level attacks, in some cases carrying someone across water for miles, putting out fires on skyscrapers, saving multiple people instantly from a crashing train, changing time, catching bullets, catching bullets behind his head without looking, vibrating through objects, undoing tornadoes, saving people from falling buildings(one of which Supergirl even), breaching the multiverse etc, so I disagree.

In real life these are impressive. In CW these require very high speeds, but Barry performed them when he was no more than Mach 20 (still isn't in the show.) Either the speedforce messes with physics, or CW physics are different then ours.

His feats are solid not to mention becoming Savitar or at least a version of him....

Savitar is a different character than Barry as far as this battle is concerned.

and him getting so fast he needs a suit to contain his energy dispersal. That is also not one particular thing, Clark while amazing can't do A LOT of things Flash can do, vibrate through objects, run as fast as Flash overall lightspeed, leaped into a anomaly, helped close it, time travel on his own power, create tornadoes with his hands, unwind tornadoes by running(we saw Clark jump into one to save Lana, he didn't unwind it and doesn't until the distant future when he can fly), doesn't run on water for whatever reason, has never caught multiple bullets a la Zoom style or behind his head like Flash did so there's several things actually...

Again, very situational feats that Flash did that Clark didn't specifically do don't mean that Clark can't replicate them.

And yet the tachyon device allowed him to breach the multiverse by becoming faster and 4x as fast as Zoom was.Wells of Earth 2 confirmed this as did Cisco, Caitlin etc so yes speed does make a difference, just because it's an ability doesn't mean it doesn't require speed to do so. This is like saying well Clark can only vaporize bullets because heat vision is a power, so not impressive...you're lowballing Flash here. Come on now. The first time he went in the past by accident pretty damn sure he was moving as fast if not faster than Clark ever did to stop the Tsunami....when you just saw literally a streak moving around the city back and forth. Wells confirmed in a clip shown here that as fast as Barry is Mach 2 when he time travelled, Zoom is more than twice that fast....which means other speedsters have been faster casually than Early Barry at least. That and the show where he fought Trajectory, he had to leap over a huge bridge gap and went Mach 3.3 accerration instantly which even the guy in the video breakdown admits it's insane. When he went faster than Zoom via tachyon device he was calculated at being Mach 13+ which is crazy fast, pretty sure that's faster than Clark's speed since he broke the damn multiversal barrier running accidentally mind you in a few seconds, Clark ran from Kansas to South America(again not even around the world) in a few seconds. Flash ran so fast he ran literally to another EARTH in the Multiverse in that same timeframe....that couldn't have been done without the speed amp.

Yeah, again CW physics are different. Also, Clark isn't in this thread, so we are really derailing.

He's apart of the CW being from SV since technically SV was still on when CW took over...and proof he's FTL? This is such a myth on the show he's never been shown to be such, if he were he wouldn't have gotten knocked out from a damn pistol whip, FTL would mean he'd react to such a weak attack. The DD I'll let slide since it's DD but not a pistol Whip, not even Barry got knocked out from such a weak attack. Do you want me to post the clip? In the comic later on he became faster running around the world in seconds etc but still died against Black Flash.

Yeah no idea what the pistol whip is, I didn't watch ALL 10 seasons.

That doesn't make him FTL because of the way the show interprets Clark and the camera moving slowly, again they've showed this similar effect on Flash too...and much like Savitar's insane speed clearly being FTL as we've seen this season, like the guy in the video states chances are once Flash is over he'll easily surpass FTL speed like nothing much like Clark couldn't FLY fully until the finale of SV....

This scene Flash is literally moving so fast around the room before Iris's sugar even hits the coffee, as if time stops...again no different than Smallville's effect of Clark's perception. Then dominator scene, again moving so fast everything stops moving to him....

But anybody can do that with super speed. Hell, MCU Quicksilver did that to an extent.

No different than this scene in SV....

Lol ONE scene means nothing though... that's his low end feats there.

Flash saving Joe from literally shooting himself in head from his own gun point blank...

After talking to Grodd for 5 minutes to stop him from doing that... Instead of smacking the pistol out of his hand as soon as he knew Grodd was in control. THAT'S acting stupid.

I'm aware of Clark's speed but Flash also perceives time the same way, literally no different look. When Clark moves it's like people are standing still, well when Flash move literally same effect in fact one clip he has time after the bullet it shot which sooner from the gun the higher the exiting velocity as the bullet slows the longer it's in the air, yet Flash not only catches the bullet from the gun almost immediately but has time to catch it, move it at the guy's shoulder a la Quick Silver Xmen style and run over to another guy pushing his gun downward.

Yes, but Clark is much more consistent, and has better high end feats. Also, you realize that Flash is ALSO IN SLOW MOTION IN THESE SCENES, which means that he is not perceiving time as flash as the camera.

Good video breakdown of how Savitar's speed is and that he needs the suit to contain his speed force energy or he could destroy himself with his own speed.

I know that. It's all static electricity.

Again, that's not Clark running around the world. That would imply him running over water to Egypt, Europe etc. He's running to South America ON LAND. Pretty sure Flash and any speedster on CW can and has done that depending on the plot...as well as on water. Flash has run on water on several occasions, but 2 of them were carrying someone and yet still fast enough to run on water...Clark however can't even do it alone, which raises questions. He also ran back on the water escaping her explosion, in another instance he carried cait outrunning a nuke on water....

But it is. South America is FAR AWAY from where he was. Also, CW speedsters do that MUCH slower. Clark ran from Smallville to South America in the length of the gif below, which shows Flash running across PART OF A CITY.

Flash running so fast across Central City, through the speed force multiverse into National city catches Supergirl out of a falling window, then runs her some where in the middle of the country on her Earth in seconds....that is just as good if not more impressive than clark speeding to south america feat because he did so while saving someone else besides breaching the multiverse at the same time.

That's not across continents, or even states. It has NOTHING on Clark's feat.

We are derailing anyways. If you think that Savitar wins, then I'll argue about that. I'm not responding to anything that has to do with Smallville.

@TheSpartanB345T Ah ha, ok. I see.

If anything the SF would allow him to be FTL though...

Like I said earlier, fiction man. With fiction anything is possible and real numbers are pretty much moot when compared to the real world, I mean I could post a ton of examples why the numbers for both DC and Marvel characters realistically wouldn't add up by our rule of physics, laws etc

So EVERY EPISODE that he doesn't fight a speedster is due to PIS and plot? Not how it works. I agree that if it happens occasionally it could be due to plot. However, Barry is CONSISTENTLY losing to people with human reactions. That is applied to the character, since it occurs so often.

Never said PIS, I said plot and to make things interesting. PIS is relative, sure some shows were written silly but again someone like Flash if you write him like he moves in the comics, experienced, able to do everything he normally does that would get boring real fast and the viewer would get bored see it as ok, well nobody can challenge this guy so why bother? That's the last thing any show wants for their characters. I wouldn't say consistently, he is consistently JOBBING but LOSING? No. And he fights metahumans most of the time, not exactly normal human reactions...these people have powers.

This is a poor analogy though, SS is not the character being discussed here it's Savitar and QS....the problem with your logic here is you're going off topic, it's like discussing Baseball and someone brings up football to try to prove a point why something in baseball won't work, doesn't work.

Flawed logic though, you're assuming Clark can yet in 10 years NEVER once showed such therefore til we see he can't run on water....otherwise he would have regardless of his speed. By your logic ok, then I can say Flash is Flash just because he hasn't gone past FTL doesn't mean he CAN'T yet because he's only going to get faster. You'll say, we haven't seen him do it yet though...well there you go, same difference with Clark running on water.

Incorrect, it is a speed feat and very relevant.

Maybe it does, maybe physics of that universe Mach 3 is equal to Mach 120 on our world...again fiction, don't think about it so much. Feats>>>>numbers. Point is you obviously have to move fast to time travel unless you're a cosmic being or omnipotent something.

Not my point, of course he wouldn't being Superman but my point is Flash's case while metahuman and heals fast is STILL more vulnerable than Clark is thus he takes greater risks since only magic and kryptonite can harm him. So when Flash dives into a train about to blow up or crash, he's putting his life at risk where as Clark isn't in that situations. In saying such Flash has to resort to his speed more to get out of trouble. He can't exactly have a building fall on him and be like "ahh I'm good"

In real life these are impressive. In CW these require very high speeds, but Barry performed them when he was no more than Mach 20 (still isn't in the show.) Either the speedforce messes with physics, or CW physics are different then ours.

Again, you keep mentioning REAL life well same can be said about QS's feats in Marvel. In real life that would be impressive but by comic standards, they're ok at best. CW flash nerfs the character for sake of plot and to make things interesting, sure it's dumb at times but true none the less. Again Mach 20 is irrelevant if the feat is good enough, example the train feat rescuing 20+ people whatever it was before it crashes is a VERY good feat no matter how you cut it, I don't care if he's going Mach 4 or Mach 100...feats>>>>>numbers. Even when DC and Marvel crossed over in the comics, they confirmed Marvel's Earth was smaller and more primitive than DC's....thus obviously things are different depending on the Universe/Earth. When you compare it to REAL life stats, that's when things become irrelevant because realistically none of this stuff is possible...lol regardless of DC or Marvel. There'd be too many scientific issues and realistically if either moved as fast as they've shown they'd need a lot more protection than goggles or a leather suit.

Yes and no. Yes, different VERSION of Barry in the future, but still a future Barry as we've learned last episode. Whatever Barry does to himself/current/past self, clearly directly effects Savitar as we saw when they wiped his memory, Savitar had no clue who he was...so technically it is Barry or a version of Barry in the future that effects Savitar.

I beg to differ, the catching bullets both can do, running fast both but Clark can't vibrate himself through things, can't run on water, can't time travel running and various other things Flash has done Clark has not done because he can't do them and vice versa. You won't see Flash flying pushing planets around....

On the video responses yes I agree this isn't about SV Supes, I only used them to compare his reaction speed to Flash's since they're similar in this case against QS's. Yes, every universe's physics are different, not just CW's but Xmen's as well....from reality.

Pistol whip is when someone walks behind you and hits you on the head with the bottom of a pistol knocking you out....this was done to Bart by a mobster thug who worked for Luthor.

I wouldn't say "anybody" but definitely Flash, CW speedsters, Clark from SV, QS maybe a few others we've seen from live TV/movies but most characters can't move that fast, to them it's easy though. I don't believe QS MCU can he couldn't even dodge a few bullets....

lol it's not just "one scene" Barry has done this several times throughout the series...not low end feat, it proves my point of how fast Flash is which is clearly on par with SV and QS, dude caught a bullet out of the gun, moved it with his hands then ran over to the next guy and moved his gun down the same way QS did in Xmen. So if you're going to lowball the feat I guess QS's "Sweet Dreams" clip was low end too then.

lol while I don't disagree Barry should have just disarmed Joe, he only talked to Grodd because he needed to know his plan first....but hey still not as dumb as starring at Apocalypse's face, smirking then getting your ass caught by mud grab seconds later...besides, I posted that to prove and show you HOW fast Flash is with a bullet to someone's head instantaneously.

Umm it's the same thing man, Flash's scenes are in slow motion to show us how he perceives things like Clark and QS, can't say theirs are better when it's the same exact thing. Comes off as lowballing Flash's speed perception but boosting theirs. Doesn't work that way, they all clearly perceive time the same or similarly. Of course Flash's should be better and probably will be once the series is over but you know nerf CW flash is their thing apparently for whatever reason. Clark's speed feats in terms of bullet timer are no better than Flash's, Flash caught bullets behind his back on reaction not even Clark has done that or QS....

Not just static but the SF by then is so strong in that version of future Barry he needs the suit to sustain his speed literally because he's so fast...

They don't do it much slower, we've never seen them do it on screen but Flash has disappeared and reappeared with things out of nowhere like Clark before several times. Again, south america is NOT around the world....around the world means around literally as in europe, africa, china, russia, south america, america etc. All Clark did was run from Kansas middle of US to South America, that's essentially straight on land and not even on water. Also, Barry wasn't trying for any speed records there I posted that as proof he can and has run on water where as Clark never has....And technically he dropped the bomb chick in the middle of the ocean away from the city far enough so the explosion wouldn't harm anyone.

Actually it's across the multiverse, dimensions, Earth's, cities and pretty sure states as he took her from National City to the middle of no where even close to the city pretty sure that's at least a few states away....kind of obvious. And Clark's running feat wasn't across continents, it was through Mexico to South America....Flash can do that too. But at least Flash can run on water....

At any rate, I'll just agree to disagree with you. I'm still going with Savitar over QS at the end of the day.

@arctika

At any rate, I'll just agree to disagree with you. I'm still going with Savitar over QS at the end of the day.

Alright. Appreciate your passive nature.