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#1 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

Malcolm Merlyn:

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VS

Black Widow:

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When these two master assassins do battle, who will win?

I know a version of this battle has been done before, but this op will have a different set-up

CW/MCU versions, respectively

Round 1:

Fight takes place in a dojo

Both are unarmed

Round 2:

Malcolm has a sword

Widow has her tonfa and Widow's bite

Fight takes place in a warehouse. Starting distance is 30 feet

Round 3:

Malcolm has his full League gear

Widow has her Widow's bite, tonfa, garotte, and handguns

Fight takes place in the airport from Civil War. Starting distance is 100 feet

Victory by ko or death

Who wins?

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#2 Edited by batmanprep (1526 posts) - - Show Bio

Malcom all rounds. He is at least 3 times more skilled than bw

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#3 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

Malcom all rounds. He is at least 3 times more skilled than bw

How so?

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#4 Posted by Death-Killer (447 posts) - - Show Bio

Meryln. More skilled, faced a better variety of established opponents.

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#5 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

Meryln. More skilled, faced a better variety of established opponents.

All rounds?

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#6 Edited by batmanprep (1526 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: pure feats of beating oliver TWICE, and beating mirakuru soldier 1 on 1 and bullet/arrow timing all the time on his bad days

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#7 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: pure feats of beating oliver TWICE, and beating mirakuru soldier 1 on 1 and bullet/arrow timing all the time on his bad days

He barely beat a Mirakuru soldier-impressive, sure, but it's not like he did it easily, or unarmed

Malcolm's not a true bullet timer. He has aim dodging feats and such, but so does Widow

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#8 Posted by TheSuperor (5200 posts) - - Show Bio

Meryln. More skilled, faced a better variety of established opponents.

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#9 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Edited by batmanprep (1526 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: true, but BW is probably around Nyssa or EOS1-LOT White canary's level

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#11 Posted by TheSuperor (5200 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Maybe not the third round, but definitely the first two rounds. The third round is a toss up imo

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#12 Posted by DSTREET45 (3655 posts) - - Show Bio

Does she have Civil War version of Widow bites?

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#13 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: true, but BW is probably around Nyssa or EOS1-LOT White canary's level

Honestly I think White Canary would give Merlyn a heck of a fight at this point-and she doesn't have Widow's gear

Does she have Civil War version of Widow bites?

Yeah

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#14 Posted by Shintakie (709 posts) - - Show Bio

Merlyn all rounds. Round 3 could be interesting if not for the fact they start so far away from each other that Merlyn has a clear advantage. He actually has accuracy feats, she doesnt. It's entirely possible she can hit a shot at 100 feet without difficulty. Totally don't know if she can though. Meanwhile we know Merlyn can shoot that far accurately, we know he can shoot that far accurately and quickly and we know he can aim dodge. If he cant take her from range he just drops a smoke, hides, takes her out from stealth. Easy peesy.

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#15 Posted by AllStarSuperman (39993 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way

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#16 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

Merlyn all rounds. Round 3 could be interesting if not for the fact they start so far away from each other that Merlyn has a clear advantage. He actually has accuracy feats, she doesnt. It's entirely possible she can hit a shot at 100 feet without difficulty. Totally don't know if she can though. Meanwhile we know Merlyn can shoot that far accurately, we know he can shoot that far accurately and quickly and we know he can aim dodge. If he cant take her from range he just drops a smoke, hides, takes her out from stealth. Easy peesy.

Yeah she does have accuracy feats

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#17 Posted by LlehDevil (7252 posts) - - Show Bio

Merlyn get's shot in the head. Nice GIF Arcus, I never knew she was that accurate, lol.

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#18 Posted by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

Merlyn get's shot in the head. Nice GIF Arcus, I never knew she was that accurate, lol.

Oliver and Diggle are both way better marksmen than Black Widow and they literally opened fire on Malcolm at the same time and accomplished nothing. You're saying Widow should play the range game against the greatest archer in the CWverse? The guy who could tag Nyssa al Ghul with three arrows simultaneously pinning her to a wall by stands of her clothes, without even touching her skin, despite Nyssa being a near-effortless arrow timer? That sounds like suicide for Natasha.

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#19 Posted by LlehDevil (7252 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: An agent who can hang in with a super soldier can dodge a few arrows, not to mention Merlyn doesn't even carry trick as his standard gear. On top of that guns >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arrows bro.

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#20 Edited by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

In Barrowman's Dark Archer comic, Malcolm was captured by his superhuman bastard son and strung up in chains in a cave rapidly filling with water, with a scimitar literally sticking out of his cracked chest while said son sliced and tortured him with a second sword. For likely hours Malcolm made jokes and told his story to keep his son talking while he subtly escaped his shackles, then finally killed the leader of an ancient warrior organization along with his son's mother with the scimitar still in his chest, as he claimed it was the only thing keeping him from bleeding out, only for the superhuman son to rip it out and for Malcolm to continue fighting anyway as the blood drained from his body, until eventually he had a (short) fight with the superhuman son who was a League trained warrior since birth, and yet Malcolm still managed a tie against him with each of them stabbing the other through the torso. The son escaped, Malcolm left too, and then we see him in season 4 pretty much fine.

The story was awful (sorry JB) but Malcolm got at least a couple good feats out of it. He fodderizes Widow like he fodderized Ollie.

Loading Video...

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#21 Posted by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: An agent who can hang in with a super soldier can dodge a few arrows, not to mention Merlyn doesn't even carry trick as his standard gear. On top of that guns >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arrows bro.

A super soldier who has never dodged an arrow himself. Yet Widow being able to outsmart and ambush him, only to be fodderized when it came to actually fighting, indicates that she can dodge arrows? That doesn't make any sense.

Merlyn doesn't need trick arrows. I never brought them up.

Guns aren't better than arrows when we're talking an archer of Malcolm Merlyn's skill.

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#22 Posted by Doofasa (707 posts) - - Show Bio

Rd 1: Malcolm takes it, better raw hand to hand feats

Rd 2: Malcolm again but it's closer (60/40), Widow pulls a few wins with Widow-Bite

Rd 3: I'd give the edge to Malcolm again (60/40), Widow gets a few wins by shooting Merlyn in the face before she get's arrowed.

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#23 Posted by Doofasa (707 posts) - - Show Bio

@llehdevil said:

Merlyn get's shot in the head. Nice GIF Arcus, I never knew she was that accurate, lol.

Oliver and Diggle are both way better marksmen than Black Widow and they literally opened fire on Malcolm at the same time and accomplished nothing. You're saying Widow should play the range game against the greatest archer in the CWverse? The guy who could tag Nyssa al Ghul with three arrows simultaneously pinning her to a wall by stands of her clothes, without even touching her skin, despite Nyssa being a near-effortless arrow timer? That sounds like suicide for Natasha.

It seems that these two statements should directly contradict one another. I'm not disagreeing with you, it just bugs me that characters that can effortlessly dodge projectiles after they are fired can get tagged by the same projectile because someone is a great marksman?

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#24 Posted by birdman400 (1558 posts) - - Show Bio

@doofasa said:
@nickzambuto said:
@llehdevil said:

Merlyn get's shot in the head. Nice GIF Arcus, I never knew she was that accurate, lol.

Oliver and Diggle are both way better marksmen than Black Widow and they literally opened fire on Malcolm at the same time and accomplished nothing. You're saying Widow should play the range game against the greatest archer in the CWverse? The guy who could tag Nyssa al Ghul with three arrows simultaneously pinning her to a wall by stands of her clothes, without even touching her skin, despite Nyssa being a near-effortless arrow timer? That sounds like suicide for Natasha.

It seems that these two statements should directly contradict one another. I'm not disagreeing with you, it just bugs me that characters that can effortlessly dodge projectiles after they are fired can get tagged by the same projectile because someone is a great marksman?

it just makes Malcolm look better dude , Nyssa is an arrow timer , especially since that's LOA training , Malcom and Oliver are other levels of archery , almost god-like , so her not being able to dodge Malcolm's arrows just indicates how good of an archer he really is

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#25 Posted by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

@doofasa said:
@nickzambuto said:
@llehdevil said:

Merlyn get's shot in the head. Nice GIF Arcus, I never knew she was that accurate, lol.

Oliver and Diggle are both way better marksmen than Black Widow and they literally opened fire on Malcolm at the same time and accomplished nothing. You're saying Widow should play the range game against the greatest archer in the CWverse? The guy who could tag Nyssa al Ghul with three arrows simultaneously pinning her to a wall by stands of her clothes, without even touching her skin, despite Nyssa being a near-effortless arrow timer? That sounds like suicide for Natasha.

It seems that these two statements should directly contradict one another. I'm not disagreeing with you, it just bugs me that characters that can effortlessly dodge projectiles after they are fired can get tagged by the same projectile because someone is a great marksman?

He fired three arrows at her simultaneously all at different angles in the middle of a melee fight. It's not a failing of Nyssa's reflexes, it goes to show how incredibly skilled and tactical Malcolm is.

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Natasha isn't even an arrow timer, but if she is, this proves it doesn't mean anything.

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#26 Posted by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

@doofasa said:
@nickzambuto said:
@llehdevil said:

Merlyn get's shot in the head. Nice GIF Arcus, I never knew she was that accurate, lol.

Oliver and Diggle are both way better marksmen than Black Widow and they literally opened fire on Malcolm at the same time and accomplished nothing. You're saying Widow should play the range game against the greatest archer in the CWverse? The guy who could tag Nyssa al Ghul with three arrows simultaneously pinning her to a wall by stands of her clothes, without even touching her skin, despite Nyssa being a near-effortless arrow timer? That sounds like suicide for Natasha.

It seems that these two statements should directly contradict one another. I'm not disagreeing with you, it just bugs me that characters that can effortlessly dodge projectiles after they are fired can get tagged by the same projectile because someone is a great marksman?

it just makes Malcolm look better dude , Nyssa is an arrow timer , especially since that's LOA training , Malcom and Oliver are other levels of archery , almost god-like , so her not being able to dodge Malcolm's arrows just indicates how good of an archer he really is

Yeah you tell em.

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#27 Posted by Doofasa (707 posts) - - Show Bio

@doofasa said:
@nickzambuto said:
@llehdevil said:

Merlyn get's shot in the head. Nice GIF Arcus, I never knew she was that accurate, lol.

Oliver and Diggle are both way better marksmen than Black Widow and they literally opened fire on Malcolm at the same time and accomplished nothing. You're saying Widow should play the range game against the greatest archer in the CWverse? The guy who could tag Nyssa al Ghul with three arrows simultaneously pinning her to a wall by stands of her clothes, without even touching her skin, despite Nyssa being a near-effortless arrow timer? That sounds like suicide for Natasha.

It seems that these two statements should directly contradict one another. I'm not disagreeing with you, it just bugs me that characters that can effortlessly dodge projectiles after they are fired can get tagged by the same projectile because someone is a great marksman?

it just makes Malcolm look better dude , Nyssa is an arrow timer , especially since that's LOA training , Malcom and Oliver are other levels of archery , almost god-like , so her not being able to dodge Malcolm's arrows just indicates how good of an archer he really is

Fair enough mate. I understand that it's a way to establish/show someone is an Elite tier of marksman, I just don't think it makes any sense. Without something like a surprise shot or tactical use of the environment a casual arrow-timer should never get hit by an arrow. Although the example I used is a bad one as Malcolm use three arrows so it's not a normal shot.

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#28 Edited by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

@doofasa: That doesn't usually happen in Arrow. A lot of characters are arrow timers and even bullet timers, so Oliver and the other archers often need to use tactical shots in order to trick them into taking the arrows. Rarely does a good archer just magically shoot an arrow timer on his first try just by being accurate.

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#29 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: what's Diggle done that's way better than Black Widow in marksmanship?

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#30 Posted by batofgotham2000 (382 posts) - - Show Bio

Malcolm for all rounds.

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#31 Edited by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Black Widow's best showing is headshotting Winter Soldier from like, 20 feat away. Diggle was rapidly sniping armored ninjas left and right during the storm on Nanda Parbet. You convinced me in that other thread that not all League members are peak human, but I still can't picture Natasha shooting that skillfully and being capable of rapidly switching to gun kata. As a soldier, Diggle is more on Bucky's level of gun skill imo.

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#32 Edited by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@arcus1: Black Widow's best showing is headshotting Winter Soldier from like, 20 feat away. Diggle was rapidly sniping armored ninjas left and right during the storm on Nanda Parbet. You convinced me in that other thread that not all League members are peak human, but I still can't picture Natasha shooting that skillfully and being capable of rapidly switching to gun kata. As a soldier, Diggle is more on Bucky's level of gun skill imo.

And this was just during her training
And this was just during her training
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I wouldn't count her out too quickly in terms of marksmanship

It didn't take particularly skillful shooting to take down those ninjas, I could easily see Natasha duplicating Diggle's shooting there

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#33 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Doofasa (707 posts) - - Show Bio

@doofasa: That doesn't usually happen in Arrow. A lot of characters are arrow timers and even bullet timers, so Oliver and the other archers often need to use tactical shots in order to trick them into taking the arrows. Rarely does a good archer just magically shoot an arrow timer on his first try just by being accurate.

Didn't Oliver get shot by Malcolm in season 1 by a straight forward shot? My memory may be off as it's been a while since I saw that season.

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#35 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

@doofasa said:
@nickzambuto said:

@doofasa: That doesn't usually happen in Arrow. A lot of characters are arrow timers and even bullet timers, so Oliver and the other archers often need to use tactical shots in order to trick them into taking the arrows. Rarely does a good archer just magically shoot an arrow timer on his first try just by being accurate.

Didn't Oliver get shot by Malcolm in season 1 by a straight forward shot? My memory may be off as it's been a while since I saw that season.

I don't remember anything that straightforward, but idk

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#36 Posted by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@nickzambuto said:

@arcus1: Black Widow's best showing is headshotting Winter Soldier from like, 20 feat away. Diggle was rapidly sniping armored ninjas left and right during the storm on Nanda Parbet. You convinced me in that other thread that not all League members are peak human, but I still can't picture Natasha shooting that skillfully and being capable of rapidly switching to gun kata. As a soldier, Diggle is more on Bucky's level of gun skill imo.

And this was just during her training
And this was just during her training
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I wouldn't count her out too quickly in terms of marksmanship

It didn't take particularly skillful shooting to take down those ninjas, I could easily see Natasha duplicating Diggle's shooting there

I really just don't see any of these feats as exceptional accuracy. You rebutted me by saying that the ninjas weren't difficult shots, but those were moving targets from at least 50 feet away, in the middle of a hectic battlefield where Diggle was singlehandedly providing most of the cover fire and rapidly switching from target to target, and sniping to gun kata. You posted a gif of Natasha headshotting and chestshotting a still dartboard from like, 20 feet away. I mean yeah she is switching between guns rapidly, but it's not like Diggle took much time to aim every time he switched targets. I don't see how that is possibly comparable.

The scan is another target from like, 20 feet away, but she's under fire at the same time so, okay I guess. I don't really see why Diggle couldn't do it. The final gif was literally a point blank shot. I mean sure she did it while falling, but the guy was directly underneath her, she had time and good view. I'm sorry but none of these feats really counter what I already brought up. Diggle is better with guns than Black Widow.

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#37 Posted by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

@doofasa said:
@nickzambuto said:

@doofasa: That doesn't usually happen in Arrow. A lot of characters are arrow timers and even bullet timers, so Oliver and the other archers often need to use tactical shots in order to trick them into taking the arrows. Rarely does a good archer just magically shoot an arrow timer on his first try just by being accurate.

Didn't Oliver get shot by Malcolm in season 1 by a straight forward shot? My memory may be off as it's been a while since I saw that season.

A better way to phrase that might be that Malcolm tagged Ollie after trapping and maneuvering him in place with multiple arrows, and timing his movements exactly to nail him. Just a great showing of skill on Merlyn's part, nobody can dodge arrows forever, and even though Ollie is a pretty casual arrow timer, he just wasn't able to keep up with Malcolm Merlyn's tactical firing for long.

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#38 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

...she's surrounded by small tanks, needing to dodge their fire from all sides while targeting a specific weak spot on the tank. How is that not impressive?

Diggle switched once, because he got his gun knocked away. He got disarmed, beat up the ninja, and pulled out his handgun. It's not as impressive as you're trying to make it sound

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#39 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#40 Posted by jashro44 (44022 posts) - - Show Bio

Siding with Malcolm.

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#41 Posted by highaccuser (31439 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know what to think of Black Widow. She beat Hawkeye who got the upper hand over Black Panther at one point (something no one in Arrow short of Deathstroke should be able to do) and did well against Crossbones but was also turned to fodder by Bucky and outright matched by a random mercenary. Then again, Merlyn's not a shining pillar of consistency either, but his good feats are more abundant and frequent.

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#42 Edited by jashro44 (44022 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

I don't know what to think of Black Widow. She beat Hawkeye who got the upper hand over Black Panther at one point (something no one in Arrow short of Deathstroke should be able to do) and did well against Crossbones but was also turned to fodder by Bucky and outright matched by a random mercenary. Then again, Merlyn's not a shining pillar of consistency either, but his good feats are more abundant and frequent.

Hawkeye kind of got black panther in a hold off screen so that showing is a bit weird (plus I wouldn't say he had an advantage since T'challa beat him) and Widow beat him back in the avengers. Civil war takes place a few years after the avengers so the argument can be made Clint just improved. They were portrayed pretty evenly in civil war with Natahsa having an advantage because Clint chose to hold back according to scarlet witch.

EDIT: When was Natahsa matched by a random mercenary? I don't remember that and that doesn't sound right.

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#43 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser:

Considering Widow tore through an entire squad of armored soldiers right before fighting those mercenaries, I think it's safe to assume they were intended to be more than just average goons

As for Bucky, I think both of her fights with him have shown that she simply can't match the strength of his bionic arm

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#44 Posted by Arcus1 (24190 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by highaccuser (31439 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Hawkeye kind of got black panther in a hold off screen so that showing is a bit weird (plus I wouldn't say he had an advantage since T'challa beat him) and Widow beat him back in the avengers. Civil war takes place a few years after the avengers so the argument can be made Clint just improved. They were portrayed pretty evenly in civil war with Natahsa having an advantage because Clint chose to hold back according to scarlet witch.

EDIT: When was Natahsa matched by a random mercenary? I don't remember that and that doesn't sound right.

We saw them fight a bit on screen but I don't think anything could've happened off screen other than them just fighting like we saw. I didn't say he won but he got T'Challa in a bad position. The argument Clint improved wouldn't really hold given there's no statement in that direction and he was actually retired before the events of Civil War. She had the advantage in their rematch too.

During the opening scene against Crossbones' goons. She was trying to get the virus and one of the guys traded blows with her evenly until another one threatened to drop the container. I'll try to look for the clip tomorrow.

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#46 Posted by jashro44 (44022 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

@jashro44: all rounds? Any reasons?

I think Malcolm is just better. He just has more established feats I feel.

@jashro44 said:

Hawkeye kind of got black panther in a hold off screen so that showing is a bit weird (plus I wouldn't say he had an advantage since T'challa beat him) and Widow beat him back in the avengers. Civil war takes place a few years after the avengers so the argument can be made Clint just improved. They were portrayed pretty evenly in civil war with Natahsa having an advantage because Clint chose to hold back according to scarlet witch.

EDIT: When was Natahsa matched by a random mercenary? I don't remember that and that doesn't sound right.

We saw them fight a bit on screen but I don't think anything could've happened off screen other than them just fighting like we saw. I didn't say he won but he got T'Challa in a bad position. The argument Clint improved wouldn't really hold given there's no statement in that direction and he was actually retired before the events of Civil War. She had the advantage in their rematch too.

During the opening scene against Crossbones' goons. She was trying to get the virus and one of the guys traded blows with her evenly until another one threatened to drop the container. I'll try to look for the clip tomorrow.

Natasha didn't have the advantage in the rematch (skill wise). Clint floored her, and than she said no hard feelings, she knocked him down and was about to kick him in the face and Scarlet Witch said Clint was pulling his punches. They both were on the ground at various points and even the last advantage did shift to Natasha it was because Clint was holding back. So as I said she won because she was more ruthless. As for T'challa and Clint anything could have happened during a battle with all these super beings around.

I don't remember that.

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#48 Posted by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

@nickzambuto:

...she's surrounded by small tanks, needing to dodge their fire from all sides while targeting a specific weak spot on the tank. How is that not impressive?

Diggle switched once, because he got his gun knocked away. He got disarmed, beat up the ninja, and pulled out his handgun. It's not as impressive as you're trying to make it sound

She dodges fire in the first panel, the tanks aren't firing continuously. When she takes the shot, she's still. It's definitely a high-stress environment but no more high-stress than Diggle and two other fighters trying to take on the League of Assassins singlehandedly, and the shotS (plural) that Diggle made during that fight, were harder than the shot (singular) Black Widow made.

Diggle switched shots repeatedly and rapidly. What? Do you think he was firing at the same body the entire fight? There were ninjas storming constantly and he would shoot one, go to the next, then the next, etc.

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Even if those gifs of Black Widow were equal accuracy (they're not, Diggle is hitting moving targets from over twice the distance) Diggle is still a better gun when it comes to hectic combat. Widow just pops off a couple shots, runs away, does something else, that's it. Diggle is actually using firearms continuously throughout the duration of battles and switches rapidly from long to close range.

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#49 Posted by nickzambuto (29289 posts) - - Show Bio

Malcom

's head get's filled with lead.

Just like it did when Diggle and Ollie opened fire on him simultaneously from 10 feet away and he closed the distance and fought them both by himself.

...wait...

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#50 Posted by DragonbellZ (1038 posts) - - Show Bio

Diggle is a badass. I have no idea why people here treat him so badly.