CW: Green Arrow, Speedy & Spartan vs. White Canary, Vixen and Heatwave

• Green Arrow and Speedy only have their bows. Diggle gets a gun with only two bullets.
• White Canary and Vixen have a sword each. Mick can only fire his gun once, for two seconds max. No totems.
• Morals on for everyone except Sara, but fighting to win. White Canary is bloodlusted like in the last Legends episode.
• In-universe intel.
• Takes place in Star Labs. 10ft apart each.
• Default incapacitation rules.

Team 2 has a huge advantage because of swords. They should take this unless Oliver pulls a Ra's on Sara or Amaya.

Legends team, Sara carries hard though

Out of curiosity, is there anything Vixen can really do if Diggle just shot her? Is there really any animal she could turn in to that'd tank that?

@fetts: Amaya doesn't have her totem for this battle. However, let's say she did have the totem, she can conjure a shield to deflect the bullet.

@angeljax: Ah! Missed that!... But, since when could Vixen conjure up a shield? That doesn't make any sense. She's connected to the Red, yes?

@fetts: It's a new power she unlocks this season.

Her totem is magic and channels "spirt" and she's able to construct solid structures of energy

@angeljax: Aahh, Green Lantern's light kinda thing. Gotcha.

Could honestly go either way

Sara vs Ollie would normally go to Ollie, but sword vs bow is a fight Sara could win if Ollie's not at the top of his game, especially with Sara being bloodlusted

Mick vs Diggle could also go either way, both tanks who are implied to be good but are always kinda overshadowed

Thea vs Vixen, maybe a slight edge to Thea, but I have them pretty comparable too. Doesn't help that Thea's been out of commission for a season and a half while Vixen's been continuing to improve with the Legends. Though I did forget that Amaya has a sword while Thea doesn't, that could be enough of a difference to put things in Amaya's favor

She's only done it a couple times, so it's not entirely consistent, but going off of Mari's powers, she has a degree of super speed that could allow her to bullet time. They just haven't shown that on Legends

bump

@arcus1: Sara > Oliver in cqc.

Equal if not superior showings, with none of the jobbing to hold her back. The writers portray Oliver to be some god-force of fighting, to the extent where Felicity can tell what he's going to do against enemies without taking a single hit...but also have him get wrecked by a single merc at other times.

Sara is more consistent.

Going to assume that this is Speedy in her Prime.

Sara and Oliver are obviously the two best combatants here. Normally, I'd have them pretty much equal (perhaps with a slight edge to Oliver in-universe,) but here I'd give the win to Sara. A sword is more effective than a bow, and Sara's a beast with a sword.

Mick VS Digg is tough, and really could go either way H2H. However, the guns mix it up and probably give the edge to Mick.

Thea VS Amaya. Thea's good, but Amaya's better. She held her own against Malcolm H2H even without totem powers, whilst Speedy needs a sword to go up against him and even then he can mostly toy with her. So I'd give the win to Amaya even without a sword.

1v1 matchups, Legends likely sweep.

Team VS Team, it comes down to whether Mick or Digg fires first. I'd give the win to Mick, but narrowly. The winning team is probably whoever fires first, as this is close enough that a numbers advantage will win it.

@jsdoctor: Thea's gone up against Anarky, someone I would considering to be comparable to Malcolm, unarmed, and won.

With a bow, she also held her own quite decently against Diaz last episode.

That's just a few feats I can remember for Thea, swords excluded.

@thehunter: True, I didn't consider those feats. But on the Anarky point, I think that the Lazarus Pit bloodlust played a part there (given that she set him on fire, and beat him immediately after he beat Oliver,) and she doesn't have that bloodlust here. With regard to Diaz, she only hit him once (and he blocked that hit very solidly.) It took him seconds to disarm her and win. So whilst it's good that she managed to block and evade him for a while, I don't think that that puts her on Malcolm's tier yet without the bloodlust.

I was more talking about the instance in the episode 4x21, where he knocked out Thea's boyfriend and they started fighting. Thea was holding her own for a bit, was knocked down, and when Anarky was about to kill him, she went full bloodlust mode and destroyed him. The entire fight wasn't with her bloodlust.

To be fair, Diaz also only hit her once, then he put an arrow by her throat. The fight had Diaz as her evident superior, but Thea holding him off for about 15 seconds is still a good feat, given that this guy will most likely be a peer to Ollie at the end of the season.

@thehunter: Just rewatched the 4x21 scene on YT; I had completely forgotten about it. Sorry for misunderstanding you. And both are very solid feats. I do still believe that Amaya's Merlyn feat is better if only because he's more established and she was clearly on par with him, but the fight between Amaya and Thea is probably closer than I initially thought it would be.

The merc showing again?

Based on their crossover fight, Ollie>=Sara (one extended encounter plus one time where he was clearly superior), and technically he stomped Malcolm in a way she never did (granted, the fight was initially supposed to be longer, and placed in context I don't think the disparity is as large as just looking at fights with Malcolm would suggest). We also got to see them in action side by side when fighting the Nazis, and I didn't see anything to suggest that Sara's superior, if anything I saw the opposite.

At this point, I'm willing to roll with the notion that Sara is more technically proficient than Ollie in melee, which is why I could see her winning a swordfight, or a sword vs bow fight in this case, but even then I don't see how the gap's intended to be all that large in pure skill. Ollie also has a physical advantage, which is why Sara would need a weapon to reliably beat him.

Yeah, Sara's more consistent, but she's not the main focus of every episode of her series, so that's bound to happen. If Ollie didn't have high end showings to balance out low end showings, then I could see saying Sara's outright better, but as you said, the writers portray Ollie as the best of the best just as often as they show him struggling (that merc showing is really extreme, even by low showing standards, and it clearly served a role in the plot by giving Curtis something to do)

I'm gonna give the edge to the Legends, but Team Arrow gives them a helluva fight. Under these circumstances, Ollie and Sara should be somewhat even, but Mick and Amaya take the wins over Dig and Thea.

Oliver and Sara are both at the top tier of skill within the current Arrowverse, and are the best of their respective teams. Oliver still has the edge on Sara in terms of skill, she's definitely above S4 Ollie at this point after beating Magic-Stats Darhk more easily than he did, but still not quite at current Ollie's level. He was still able to hold his own against Sara in combination with Diggle and Thea last season, and I don't think Sara's improved quite enough to make up for that showing (though she's clearly improved significantly). Oliver's also got a pretty definite speed/stat advantage in addition to the narrow skill edge. That said, Sara's got some advantages in this fight that even things out, she's bloodlusted while Ollie is in-character, and a sword is a much better melee weapon than a bow. For that reason, I'm gonna call this matchup even, it really could go either way.

Mick and Diggle are also somewhat similar fighters, both physical beasts with often underrated skill. However, I see Mick taking a definite advantage. As good as Diggle is, he doesn't stack up on paper or by feats. Mick trained for lifetimes with the Time-Masters, and even before that he was able to best Pre-LoA S1 Sara. He's got nearly superhuman physicals, almost never taking any damage while consistently ragdolling opponents, and he had the reflexes to tag the Flash. After his training, he beat Vandal Savage more easily than anyone else ever had, I'd almost call it a stomp, something Diggle couldn't replicate regardless of the imrovement Savage might've made over the couple decades between that and the crossover. He beat a fully geared Time Hunter while completely unarmed, he fought off superhuman Hawk-Creatures that had multi-ton strength, he took out an entire group of ninjas after being ambushed while unarmed, and he even had the edge of S2 Doomworld Sara in their brief encounter. I think he definitely trumps Diggle H2H. Plus, I think a 2 second burst from the Heatgun is gonna be more powerful and useful than two bullets from Diggle's gun.

I also think Amaya is gonna be able to take down Thea. She's better on paper, and I couldn't see Thea doing as well against Merlyn as Amaya did. They're still very close, but Amaya having the sword while Thea only has a bow is enough to definitively tilt things in Amaya's favor.

Without the totem? How is she better on paper?

She had a fifth degree black-belt as opposed to Thea undergoing League of Assassin style training. I don't see how she's better on-paper at all.

Also, didn't Thea repeatedly show that she can hold her own against Merlyn as well?