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#1 Posted by mexcomics2078 (3168 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver rwplaces cap on the wntire movie

Scenario 1 : Oliver VS Phase 1 Cap oliver has only his bow aand cap thinks oliver is Loki

Scenario 2: He replaces. Cap against thanos and his army he is worthy of mjonir(standard Gear)

Bonus : he replaces Tony stark on the snap. Does he survive?

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#2 Posted by Amcu (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver dies.

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#3 Posted by Chimaera (248 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver dies in r1 and r3, r2 shouldnt be very different than Cap's performance

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#4 Posted by GeorgeWBush (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

He can’t wield Mjolnir lmao

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#5 Edited by DanielDaRipper (5678 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Steve obviously beats him in hand to hand combat.
  2. Even assuming Oliver is worthy it wasn't just Mjolnir that helped Cap, his shield played a huge role in his performance against Thanos as well something Oliver doesn't have.

Bonus: No he dies, I think it's clear that only high tiers could survive the use of the snap.

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#6 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5678 posts) - - Show Bio

He can’t wield Mjolnir lmao

Well considering the OP says Oliver is worthy I don't see why he couldn't wield it...

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#7 Posted by mexcomics2078 (3168 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#8 Posted by Subline (8839 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Cap Stomps
  2. Oliver can beat Thanos without Mjolnir
  3. Oliver could snap how many times he wants, it isn't even gonna tickle him.
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#9 Edited by GateOfBabylon (4607 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver fails all 3.

R1: That scene basically proved that even Phase 1 Cap was on the same tier as EG Cap. Oliver loses.

R2: He has no prior knowledge nor the skill to use Mjolnir effectively. He dies.

Bonus: He dies. If only Hulk and Thanos survived snapping with heavy injuries and EG Thor wasn't deemed durable enough, then you roughly know the ballpark of durability needed to survive.

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#10 Posted by TheOneAboveLife (1203 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline said:
  1. Cap Stomps
  2. Oliver can beat Thanos without Mjolnir
  3. Oliver could snap how many times he wants, it isn't even gonna tickle him.
No Caption Provided

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#11 Posted by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

@gateofbabylon:

R2: He has no prior knowledge nor the skill to use Mjolnir effectively. He dies.

Cap didn't have the prior skill to use Mjolnir either. And it's not like Mjolnir is MCU specific. It's a pretty popular mythological item.

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#12 Edited by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

As for R1. Current Cap jobbed hard against Avengers Cap. The fight shouldn't have been half as close as it was, going by feats or by word of god.

Avengers Cap will be lucky to land any hits on Oliver. Even back in S2, Oliver used to go untouched against opponents like freaking Nyssa Al Ghul. But Oliver isn't putting Cap down either so his best bet would be to get his hands on Loki's staff and KO Cap like current Cap did. Assuming he knows how it works. Otherwise, he loses. Eventually.

What's the point of the third round? The snap basically destroyed Hulk's hand and was said to be capable of likely killing Thor. And you want a human to use the snap...

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#13 Posted by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

@gateofbabylon:

That scene basically proved that even Phase 1 Cap was on the same tier as EG Cap. Oliver loses.

This doesn't make sense going by feats, or by word of god. It was PIS, plain and simple.

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#14 Posted by jayskee (4925 posts) - - Show Bio

He dies every single round

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#15 Posted by Rebake (4564 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: A1 Cap thought EG Cap was Loki. He's not holding back while EG Cap says he doesn't want to hurt him. EG Cap was also distracted by the scepter.

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#16 Posted by mrmonster (16015 posts) - - Show Bio

Dies every round, especially the bonus.

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#17 Posted by Joker567892 (355 posts) - - Show Bio

For your Bonus...

Hell No, he's not surviving it, it Hurt Thanos and Hulk but also killed Tony.

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#18 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43457 posts) - - Show Bio

Lmao if this was an arrow episode he would totally survive the snap.

*remembers that season 3 fall off mountain*

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#19 Posted by ANTHP2000 (28819 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. He can win if he figures out how to use the Scepter.
  2. I would think he can keep his distance and play a part in holding off Thanos using his gear mostly.
  3. Lmao.

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#20 Posted by Lan_Fan (16248 posts) - - Show Bio

He stomps all rounds.

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#21 Posted by The_Magister (14481 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Lan_Fan (16248 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by GateOfBabylon (4607 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:

This doesn't make sense going by feats, or by word of god. It was PIS, plain and simple.

Fair enough, one can also argue that current Cap was holding back quite a bit. Or that Phase 1 Cap didn't get chances to show his H2H skills as all he fought were fodder aliens instead of humans (post hibernation). Next time we see him was already in TWS.

Cap didn't have the prior skill to use Mjolnir either. And it's not like Mjolnir is MCU specific. It's a pretty popular mythological item.

I'd give Cap the benefit of the doubt for knowledge due to being on the same team as Thor for years, he'd have seen Mjolnir in action a lot. Plus the fact that Cap is great at improvisation and adaptation.

Regardless I don't think Oliver has any known skill in using weapons outside of the traditional bow and LoA weapons.

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#25 Edited by Stahlflamme (5851 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: What are you on about now? The guys who directed endgame would be the guys who everyone claims made Cap superpowerful and they confirmed with that fight they just made better action scenes than which were in Avengers or Cap 1 and did not intend for Cap to be stronger. There is no use crying about it. And regarding feats Cap already suggested in Avengers he could fight Iron Man whoch he did not do before Civil War and is a feat that in itself gets constantly called PIS. So he suggested he could already do his best feat at the time. People should finally get out of this DBZ mindset that fighters are constantly getting better or stronger. Especially since it really has not been true for superhero comics for the most part ever.

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#26 Posted by bleidd (361 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: Give Oliver his arrows and he still loses to any version of Cap. Has Oliver ever beaten any super soldier let alone someone of Cap's calibre with just his regular gear? This has been done so many times on this forum that it's not even fun debating anymore. Endgame proved that there isn't any massive skill difference b/w Cap in The Avengers and Cap post-Avengers like we all used to believe. It's just that the choreography got better. Oliver gets his a$$ whooped.

R2: There's no way to know if Oliver can handle Mjolnir as well as Cap did but he'd most likely survive because being worthy of Mjolnir will also give him Thor's physicals.

R3: Oliver dies. In fact I think that Tony being able to do the snap was PIS as well.

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#27 Posted by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

@gateofbabylon:

Fair enough, one can also argue that current Cap was holding back quite a bit. Or that Phase 1 Cap didn't get chances to show his H2H skills as all he fought were fodder aliens instead of humans (post hibernation). Next time we see him was already in TWS.

Yeah. As I said, there is apparently a statement from Russos saying that Cap honed his skill between Avengers and The Winter Soldier to keep up with the time. I can't really find it because I don't know what to look for. Someone else might be able to do it. @amcu Are you aware of any statement like this?

If there is no such statement, then I guess Cap was always supposed to be as skilled? Which would imply he had a lot of low showings in The First Avenger and Avengers. Because the choreography pre Winter Soldier was very different for Cap.

The main reason I think Cap got more skilled in TWS is the statement and the sudden flashier choreography.

I'd give Cap the benefit of the doubt for knowledge due to being on the same team as Thor for years, he'd have seen Mjolnir in action a lot. Plus the fact that Cap is great at improvisation and adaptation.

Regardless I don't think Oliver has any known skill in using weapons outside of the traditional bow and LoA weapons.

Oliver has been shown as an extremely quick learner. He learns things at the inhuman pace. In S2, he once picked up Sara's long staff and was using it efficiently in a fight despite having never trained with that particular weapon. He learned deep sea diving in an hour, IIRC. Bamford hinted that Oliver can replicate complex moves by just observing someone do it. Oliver was also so much better at using Barry's speed. He learned how to control his speed, throw lightning and phase, all in hours after he got his powers. If anyone can do it, I think its Oliver.

@stahlflamme:

What are you on about now? The guys who directed endgame would be the guys who everyone claims made Cap superpowerful and they confirmed with that fight they just made better action scenes than which were in Avengers or Cap 1 and did not intend for Cap to be stronger.

I'm not talking about strength. Cap did not get stronger between movies. I'm talking about skill. Russos have said that Cap traveled around the world to train in combat between Avengers and The Winter Soldier. Now, I've never personally seen the statement, but I've seen it being discussed multiple times. If that's not the case, and no such statement exists, then I can see your point.

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#29 Posted by johnsmjs36 (700 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Using any other weapon and Mjolnir is different. In AoU opening Thor and Cap use a combo so it can be considered that Cap know a bit about Mjolnir that's why most of his fight against Thanos was Combo.

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#31 Posted by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Using any other weapon and Mjolnir is different. In AoU opening Thor and Cap use a combo so it can be considered that Cap know a bit about Mjolnir that's why most of his fight against Thanos was Combo.

Cap knows as much about Mjlonir as anyone familiar with what Mjolnir is capable of would know. He does not know inner workings on the weapon. Having fought beside someone who uses a magical weapon with no actual copyable moves, does not prepare you for when you eventually have to use it. Cap's just a quick learner if he figured out how to summon lightning a few seconds after picking up Mjolnir. Or it must be second nature to those holding the Mjolnir. It must be like swinging a sword or thinking it, that makes it happen.

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#32 Edited by johnsmjs36 (700 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadintwoyears: Enlighten me oh great one! Afterall, baseline human is 3 times faster and skilled than superhuman because he fought Overgirl.

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#33 Posted by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

@rebake said:

@rbt: A1 Cap thought EG Cap was Loki. He's not holding back while EG Cap says he doesn't want to hurt him. EG Cap was also distracted by the scepter.

I don't think current Cap was holding back either. Yeah, maybe he wasn't actively going for the kill, but the lives of trillions of people were at stake. I seriously doubt Cap would hold back to the point where he loses a fight in a circumstance like this. And EG Cap more or less lostthat fight or at the very least, was at the losing end.

A1 Cap was also distracted with keeping Loki away from the scepter, so it's not like that only affected EG Cap.

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#34 Posted by johnsmjs36 (700 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: No, I meant that he has general knowledge of Mjolnir. I doubt Oliver would have as much control as Steve because he hasn't seen Mjolnir in action or knows what it can do.

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#35 Posted by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: No, I meant that he has general knowledge of Mjolnir. I doubt Oliver would have as much control as Steve because he hasn't seen Mjolnir in action or knows what it can do.

Why wouldn't Oliver know what Mjolnir can do? It's not an MCU specific item.

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#36 Posted by GateOfBabylon (4607 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:

Yeah. As I said, there is apparently a statement from Russos saying that Cap honed his skill between Avengers and The Winter Soldier to keep up with the time. I can't really find it because I don't know what to look for. Someone else might be able to do it.

If there is no such statement, then I guess Cap was always supposed to be as skilled? Which would imply he had a lot of low showings in The First Avenger and Avengers. Because the choreography pre Winter Soldier was very different for Cap.

The main reason I think Cap got more skilled in TWS is the statement and the sudden flashier choreography.

I read that statement from the Russos before too. So I guess my former guess of EG Cap holding back is more likely. Or the Russos are just inconsistent about Phase 1 Cap's level.

Oliver has been shown as an extremely quick learner. He learns things at the inhuman pace. In S2, he once picked up Sara's long staff and was using it efficiently in a fight despite having never trained with that particular weapon. He learned deep sea diving in an hour, IIRC. Bamford hinted that Oliver can replicate complex moves by just observing someone do it. Oliver was also so much better at using Barry's speed. He learned how to control his speed, throw lightning and phase, all in hours after he got his powers. If anyone can do it, I think its Oliver.

I'll give it to you on Oliver's learning speed, but Cap performed so well due to pulling off amazing combinations his own shield with amazing skill. Even if Oliver picks it up fast enough, he lacks a defensive and versatile side equipment like Cap's shield. I genuinely can't see Oliver performing better than Cap in the same situation.

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#38 Posted by johnsmjs36 (700 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Marvel Mjolnir and Myth Mjolnir are different. So, yes it is marvel specified weapon

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#39 Posted by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

@gateofbabylon:

I read that statement from the Russos before too. So I guess my former guess of EG Cap holding back is more likely. Or the Russos are just inconsistent about Phase 1 Cap's level.

Yeah, Cap was either holding back, which is less likely considering EG Cap knew how much was at stake if he failed to beat A1 Cap, or it was just an inconsistency. The point I wanted to get across was that Phase 1 Cap is inferior to Phase 2/3 Cap in skill and would really struggle to tag Oliver.

I'll give it to you on Oliver's learning speed, but Cap performed so well due to pulling off amazing combinations his own shield with amazing skill. Even if Oliver picks it up fast enough, he lacks a defensive and versatile side equipment like Cap's shield. I genuinely can't see Oliver performing better than Cap in the same situation.

Yeah, that's fair. Cap also had his shield which Oliver doesn't have here. I do think he can survive against Thanos, thanks to Mjolnir, his skill and Thor's stats, but I don't see him doing better than Cap.

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#40 Posted by johnsmjs36 (700 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Phase 1 Cap only had a basic training in army. He may have picked up a few tricks but the cap in Winter Soldier is superior to the one in The Avengers in skill.

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#41 Posted by GateOfBabylon (4607 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:

The point I wanted to get across was that Phase 1 Cap is inferior to Phase 2/3 Cap in skill and would really struggle to tag Oliver.

Definitely, Phase 1 Cap lacked a lot of feats.

Yeah, that's fair. Cap also had his shield which Oliver doesn't have here. I do think he can survive against Thanos, thanks to Mjolnir, his skill and Thor's stats, but I don't see him doing better than Cap.

I'm glad we agree on this.

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#42 Posted by APEX_pretador (21349 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

As for R1. Current Cap jobbed hard against Avengers Cap.

There's no evidence for that. In the beginning he might have been a bit distracted while the A1 Cap was focused, but A1 Cap holds that very minor advantage throughout the battle and turns that into a major advantage and puts EG Cap in chokehold.

The fight shouldn't have been half as close as it was,

Why though?

going by feats

Just because he got better feats in later films doesn't mean that he actually got stronger. People like to make distinctions between Avengers Cap, TWS Cap, AoU Cap, CW Cap, IW Cap, EG Cap, (or replace Cap with Thor), but they are the same. It's not dragon ball that the characters will get massively stronger with each film. THere is not a single shred of evidence that Avengers Cap cannot stop that helicopter

or by word of god.

I don't remember the exact quote, but iirc the russos said something about Steve being more skilled post waking up due to SHIELD modern training. And that could have very likely happened before Avengers.

Anyways, the russos directed that scene, and that movie. So it shows they consider them as equals. They could have easily shown EG cap to be more skilled than A1 Cap if they wanted to. They had every opportunity to do so, but they didn't.

That's the difference between word of "some directors" and on-screen evidence. Some other director can come in tomorrow and say something else. Or the russos themselves can contradict their own words in some other interview tomorrow. But on-screen evidence is totally irrefutable and concrete.

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#43 Posted by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

@apex_pretador: No, I think the exact statement was that Cap honed his skill between Avengers and The Winter Soldier. But I can't be sure until someone posts the actual quote, which I can't seem to find.

And I agree. Better feats don't mean a stats boost. Cap did not get stronger. He just got better feats. But I do think his skill improved a lot.

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#44 Posted by Amcu (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

@apex_pretador: @rbt:Yes the Russo's confirmed consistently that Steve trained and became a much better fighter in TWS.

Loading Video...

0:34

What we're telling the audience is that in the two years since the Avengers he's done all this training. So when you drop him on that boat we're catching you up to speed on how he fights now, that its real world that its in real world situations.

Directors Anthony and Joe Russo Talk CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER, Landing the Job, Core Relationships, Easter Eggs, and the Talented Cast

"Joe Russo: We do get creative with the shield! That was a big thing for us. The approach for us with Cap was this: In the 40s, it makes sense. He’s off the streets. He can fight like John Sullivan. It’s that style of big swings, the shield’s very pronounced, because he hasn’t necessarily been trained yet. Now that he’s in the future, he has a fast mind – it’s part of what the serum does to him – it’s a tactical mind, he learns things quickly. So for us, our approach was, he would absorb everything in that year, year and a half, all the training that he could possibly get, you know?And all the tools at his disposal would be affected by that training, so there are some interesting moments with the shield where he even uses just one handle on it. He uses it more in an Eastern style to fight people."

Exclusive Interview with CAPTAIN AMERICA 2 Directors - The Suit, Science, and The Symbol

"AR: We put a massive amount of time and energy into that suit, because it was so important to us. I mean, look, for us it was Cap in this movie, we wanted him to start in a place of trying to embrace the modern world in this film, and not sort of being stuck in the past, even though he is, inevitably. So we wanted him to be training himself in the couple years he’s been alive in the modern world in all the most current fighting techniques, all the current strategies and military moves, et cetera. And we wanted him to be able to sort of craft, he wanted his suit to be an expression of the new soldier he was trying to be. So that suit is very much drawn upon the most current thinking and technology in terms of military war apparel. and that’s basically what that expression is, more or less."

Directors Explain Cap's “Stealth Outfit” And More In CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER

Cap's new advanced fighting style also factored into the costume's design, says Anthony Russo. “It’s very much grounded in real military sort of functionality and purpose. He kicks a lot of ass in this film.” Dotting more on Cap's combat skills, Joe Russo reveals, “Cap is a very sharp individual and part of the serum accelerates his learning ability and if he’s going to be working for who he’s working for at the beginning of the movie, then we felt that he would be the absolute best at every style of fighting that he could be and that he would train himself to be the best to fit into a modern society.” Noting that it made sense in the first film that Cap had a sort of John Sullivan approach to fighting, Joe continues, “Now, he’s trained. He’s trained exhaustively among some of the best people in the world. So, you see all sorts of movement out of him and we did a lot of intensive research with our stunt team, a lot of pre-fight videos and things that we’re really experimenting with how he would move in this movie, how he would fight. I think people will be really shocked when they see his style of fighting.”

They said/implied several different times that this film was meant to show Steve as the greatest soldier in the modern world and I think their idea was that he had to train himself to become the greatest soldier in the world today. I do think that Steve had some level of training back in Avengers, IIRC Bucky was supposed to have trained him in some boxing which you can see in his fighting style, and he had a cool fodder scene from a tie in comic and a nice showing against Loki. But overall he's supposed to be much better in TWS.

The Russo's even stated that he absorbed "all the training he could possibly get" and that due to his SHIELD training he became the "absolute best at every style of fighting that he could be".

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#45 Posted by RBT (29341 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Thanks. I think this does highlight that Cap v Cap fight shouldn't have gone the way it did. Either EG Cap was holding back to a great degree, or it was a low showing.

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#46 Posted by Amcu (17080 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by Joker567892 (355 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Well, his SHIELD Profile does state he is proficient in most Martial Arts even Pre-Shield Training:

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#48 Posted by Amcu (17080 posts) - - Show Bio

@joker567892: Didn't know that, its certainly an interesting thing to consider.

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#49 Posted by nfactor1995 (13009 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Cap wins eventually. Oliver could possibly win if he gets lucky or used the scepter.

2. Probably does somewhat well like Cap did for a short bit, but one hit from Thanos would probably kill him or severely injure him (take him completely out of the fight). He wouldn’t be able to take the damage that Cap did or even close.

3. He dies before he can snap.