CW: Flash vs Reign

Reign should be at least as fast as Kara. She stomps.

Who's Reign?

@watcher5000: Check out Supergirl. If you haven't watched, then I'll say no more

I don't mind spoilers, I don't watch Supergirl.

Wouldn't Reign be stomping here?

Reign skint touching Barry and Kara is no where near Barry in speed i wouldn't even put her over s3 Barry and he dusted her in the onvatiom cross over

Barry's consistently admitted that Kara is more powerful than him, and Reign handled Kara, so Reign

@watcher5000:

@nathanthecynic: Thanks, I'll watch it when I get the chance.

Reign wins.

I think Barry could take the majority if he was Morals-Off, but when he's Morals-On he doesn't have much in his arsenal to pull off a win here. Supergirl already shrugged off his lightning throw, so Sam will do so effortlessly. It's been shown that a Sonic Punch can KO someone of kryptonian durability (Music Meister with Kara's powers), albeit with some Martian help. However, Reign clearly outclasses any other kryptonian in durability given she took literally no damage from Kara whatsoever, while sending Kara straight to life-support. I'd say the only conceivable option a Morals-On Barry would have to win this would be a nonlethal Phase-Blitz like the one he utilized against Solovar, but I'm not sure if that's enough either. He could maybe take 1-2/10 wins doing that.

Sam is basically Kara's superior in every way, so she'll tag him eventually when he runs out of offensive options, and from there he's screwed.

do you hate barry???? lol

Reign stomps

She's actually a Kryptonian who is competent with her abilities unlike Kara whom she owned

Spite,this is literal spite.

a non jobbing barry should stomp but since this is the cw flash who knows

If Barry actually wants to win I see no reason he should lose.

Barry isn't going to do what it takes to win.

@uallhoes: Not close. He's actually my favorite of the four main Arrowverse characters.

@firestormfate1919 said:

Did it? Or did Music Meister let himself be 'knocked out' to bring back Wally's confidence in himself(because he was "scared" after his experience in the Spped Force)? Seriously, everything happening in that episode was Music Meister helping the team and teaching them a lesson. No one actually defeated him.

If barry gets morals off he could beat her in a flash

That's a pretty good point that most seem to forget(myself included at times).

Reign wins.

Why are poeple saying kara us faster then barry ahe shown no speed increase from last season wgrn barry dusted her easily

Yeah, that's completely possible as well. Though it must've been at least conceivable for a Sonic Punch to at least be somewhat effective on Kryptonians for the ploy to work, especially because Manhunter is more aware of alien capabilities than anyone else and he seemed to buy the plan. We've seen Sonic Punches from speedsters one-shot the likes of King Shark and Steel (100x the tensile strength of steel) as well, the latter of which is at least somewhat comparable. Barry is much, much faster than Wally too so logically his punch would be more powerful.

Regardless, Reign seems to be on a different tier of durability from Kara given she took no damage at all during their fight, so I think the Sonic Punch is kinda off the table as a win option no matter what.

@firestormfate1919 said:

The Flash wouldn't need the supersonic punch and it isn't even in the top 5 of his most powerful abilities anymore. CW Flash is now faster than the speed of light based on his nuclear bomb feat in S4 Episode 15: Enter Flashtime. He is able to move around in Flashtime while a nuclear bomb has already detonated and it hadn't even travelled mere feet to a car right next to it half an hour later when Barry is eventually able to neutralise it. In addition to his far superior top speed, Barry has the ability to phase through any object of any durability and cut through them. In a battle The Flash would simply engage in Flashtime, walk around to behind Reign and then just phase her heart out of her body killing her instantly.

Reign wouldn't even be able to comprehend that The Flash was even moving before he killed her, this is practically a spite thread after S4E15 of The Flash.

barry stomps handily if its morals off

Reign.

EDIT: Oh shit new feats for Flash. Guess he wins.

Barry now has time to bang her, kill her daughter, beats the crap out of her before she even knew what happened

Barry

Reign. Barry can't hurt her, and she will eventually tag him, given Supergirl was able to tag Reverse Flash.

Reign isn't going to tag him and Barry is faster than thawne so that means nothing

So, how come he was loosing to Eobard every time they faced each other in crossover(except for last time)?

Reign will be a statue

@eobard21:

Also, Barry was extremely tired when he used his speed for a long time. Considering that he can't hurt Reign at all, he will tire out and get tagged eventually.

Since this is barry with his morals on this is a stalemate.

Pretty sure we never seen a clear winner in any of the fights excluding the last.

@rbt: he was only losing because of the plot...dude has far better feats and won the last fight..you can't tell me that thawne is as fast as Barry when this dude did a ftl feat

Can't he just phase trough her ? Barry was only tired because it took a lot of time to figure out how to save the city

@thewatcherking: We did in 2nd episode. They fought for a while and then Eobard tossed him away. He definitely had upper hand throughout the fight. And even the last fight was extremely close.

@eobard21:

he was only losing because of the plot...

What kind of excuse is that? I can say that Barry only won the last fight because of the plot.

dude has far better feats and won the last fight..you can't tell me that thawne is as fast as Barry when this dude did a ftl feat

Even if Barry had a planck time feat, and Thawne matched him, he would be as fast.

Can't he just phase trough her ? Barry was only tired because it took a lot of time to figure out how to save the city

Barry is morals on.

@bladeoffury: Barry is morals on ? Oh shit didn't see that so reign might win this

About thawne I know this isn't an excuse and all but I still don't understand how was thawne On his level when dude was even slower than savitar..make no sense and now he's going to be ftl too just because barry is..bad writing

@eobard21: S1 Eobard was slower than Savitar because he didn't have proper access to speed force. Not the future Eobard, who we saw in crossover.

Wait wasn't s1 eobard the one we saw in the crossover ???

I clearly stated in my post that I think Barry would win this if he were Morals Off, in which case he could kill Sam using Phasing, Time Travel, Speedforce BFR, or now by Speedforce Ligning Storm after the latest episode.

However, he's Morals On here, meaning that he's acting in character, and the bolded is not something he's even gonna consider doing in-character. As fast as Barry is, in-character he still can't drop Reign, everything he's got will either kill her (which he won't do) or won't be enough to actually KO her (especially provided her tolerance to Kryptonite, perhaps one of the few win options in-characters Barry had).

At best that makes this a stalemate, but even though Barry is hopelessly faster than basically any opponent he could ever be faced with, he still has a track record of eventually being tagged in-character. That's not even to mention that for every second Barry avoids Reign, she can threaten hundreds of lives with her levels of power, using Barry's morals against him. He'll last a while, he'll give her hell between Sonic Punches and Lightning Bolts, but eventually Sam will win this.

It was Earth 1 Eobard. They didn't specify if it was S1 Eobard or not.

Reign morals on.

Morals off, flash has potential to win, but only if he does something that no speedster in the series has done and open a portal in Reign's body with his Speed punches similar to what zoom did.

Considering Reverse Flash = Future Flash, anyone tagging him when he is serious other than Black Flash (as of now) is utter PIS.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense in-universe, but we never actually saw full-power Thawne's speed. S1 Thawne was cut off from the Speedforce after killing Barry's mother, and needed his Tachyon Plate to even maintain his speed. Even with Tachyon Ampage he still lost the ability to Time Travel, and I'm sure other more advanced Speedforce abilities like Time Remnants, Inter-Dimensional Travel, Speedforce Portals, Flashtime (assuming anyone other than Barry can even do this), etc. By scaling current Barry is hundreds of times faster than S1 Thawne at the minimum, and that's with just stated speeds. We saw a presumably composite Thawne in Legends and in the Earth-X Crisis, who had both the memories of Wellsobard and the power levels of Reverse-Flash in his prime. This version had the ability both to Time Travel, move between Earths, and utilize Time Remnants at a larger scale than any other speedster we've seen. That said, Legends Thawne was also hundreds of times slower than Black Flash, and while I do think BF is probably just the fastest being more of a force of Speedforce incarnate than an actual speedster, I couldn't see current Barry being that outmatched.

It's also possible Thawne was just able to amplify his abilities himself between the finale of Legends S2 and the Crisis. He's the definitive expert on the Speedforce, even moreso than a veteran speedster like Jay or a speedster with as many pioneered techniques as Barry. He's shown Barry how to amplify speed before, and he could very well have figured his way into some kind of Speedforce chamber in order to avoid being erased by Black Flash, giving him the same boost as Barry.

My theory however, is that Thawne is Barry's arch rival partially because his speed/power is directly tied to Barry's. Thawne is destined to be Barry's equal and opposite in the future, and because of that, every time the timeline is altered by Barry or Team Flash's or his villains' actions to accelerate his power, future Thawne's speed is accelerated as well. Kind of a balancing act by the timeline, something consistent in-universe. Because Base Thawne will need to be more powerful to compete with a more powerful Barry, Future Thawne gains a similar boost. Thawne already stated that his existence is tied directly to Barry's, hence his inability to be erased, it's not a stretch that his powers are tied to Barry as well.

Both Barry and Thawne are going to be much, much faster than their original selves as a result. Wellsobard altered the original timeline to make Barry gain his powers 5 years earlier, and face adversities much faster, making his power levels grow much faster. Barry encountered RF in his first year, pushing him to his limits. He encountered Zoom as a result of this change in S2, and by the end of the season he'd compounded his speed by a factor of ~15. By his second year he was already able to defeat OG Timeline Thawne to save his mother, meaning that in this new, more rigorous timeline Barry by his second year was already superior to a seasoned original Barry in raw speed (OG Barry was never able to actually beat OG Thawne). Then he encountered Savitar due to Flashpoint, another event that would've never happened without Thawne's machinations, and doubled his speed again through sheer effort. We know that at this point Savitar was the fastest speedster anywhere in time, faster than Barry, Thawne, or anybody else. Savitar was future Barry, and a future of a faster Barry than OG Timeline Future Barry or Thawne, so this made sense. However, time changed again when Savitar failed to kill Iris and became of Paradox. Thus, Savitar is no longer necessarily the fastest speedster anywhere in time, and Barry becomes one with the Speedforce to save the world, another event that never would've happened in the previous Timeline. Savitar was a Future Barry who never experienced this amplification. Every occasion that the timeline changes and Barry gains another boost, becoming more powerful than previous Timeline counterparts of himself and Thawne, Thawne makes that same change due to his inevitable role in Barry's future.

I think current speedster hierarchy is something like: Black Flash = Speedforce Savitar >> Barry >= Thawne > Savitar > S3 Barry = Legends Thawne > Wally = Jessie > S2 Barry >= Zoom > Jay > Wellsobard > the Rival > Trajectory

@firestormfate1919:

How is Black Flash hundreds of times faster than Legends Thawne? He was matched by S3 Flash.

@firestormfate1919: Great theory and great post..make sense but you put speedforce savitar above current ? Idk about that..cause Enter Flashtime made barry so op in terms of speed

Agree with black flash tho

I'm just going by Eobard's death scene in Legends S2.

Black Flash emerges, then stops at a distant hill. When Eobard starts running, Black Flash intercepts him before he's even able to move more than a couple feet. He's essentially blitzing Thawne, covering hundreds of times the distance Thawne does in the same amount of time. It's clear how much further Black Flash needs to move than Thawne by their distance relative to Sara. Eobard is gonna be moving top speed here, it's not even just his life at stake, it's his very existence. We know that in-universe, being erased from existence is basically the worst and most painful fate imaginable. Eobard's running for his life, and he still got blitzed pretty badly by Black Flash.

I think there's a lot of context to Black Flash's encounter with Barry. First of all, it's in the Speedforce, not the physical plane, they weren't necessarily moving in the same manner they would be in a physical fight. The first time Barry went to the Speedforce he didn't even possess his speed most of the time, the Speedforce controls everything that goes on there, including the speed of those within it. Secondly, Black Flash is the enforcer of the Speedforce, he acts in accordance to the intentions of the Speedforce. The Speedforce didn't want Barry dead, it merely wanted to test Barry and for him to prove his indomidable will to free Wally. This is why it didn't have Black Flash instantly kill Barry upon touch, something we know he can do, instead having BF slowly drain Barry, giving him time to use his Dimensional Retriver to BFR Black Flash. Basically Black Flash was just facilitating a test for Barry's will, and Barry passed by using the Retriver to BFR Black Flash. In doing so, he gave up perhaps his only way home (he could've easily bailed at any point during the fight), opting instead to stay and find Wally at any costs necessary. Between these two factors, I don't think this was at all an accurate indication of Black Flash's power levels, he was nothing more than a static obstacle for Barry to overcome.

Constrast this with his hunt for Thawne, were he's completely intent on destroying an individual who has exploited the Speedforce for years, and utilized it's properties to escape death time and time again. He's clearly gonna be at full power here. This is definitely the more accurate gauge of his level.

It makes sense that he's this powerful too, he's not even so much a Speedster as a vessel for the Speedforce, it's enforcer. As it's enforcer, it makes sense he's gonna be too much for any one physical speedster, and him destroying a Thawne who was by all indications in his prime (within that timeline anyway) lines up with this. He's not held back by his motivations or his physical body like Barry or Thawne, he spends all his time soaking up Speedforce energy and keeping any single rogue speedster in check.

Thanks.

I put Speedforce Savitar that high for essentially the same reason I put Black Flash that high. He's not held back by a physical body, and his very existence is within the Speedforce. If Barry got that much of an amp from becoming one with the Speedforce for ~6 Months, imagine existing within it constantly. Speedforce Savitar was at a level of speed in comparison to Barry that we hadn't really seen before that. Barry could only even process his lightning when Savitar was moving, he couldn't even see him. Speedforce Savitar was to Barry what Barry was to a normal person, and that was pretty insane. He was a completely seperate echelon of speed.

Our two main indications of Barry's amp this season are two statements from the first episode of the season. Team Flash states that he's faster than any speedster they'd encountered before, meaning faster than Savitar in his physical form. However, Black Flash and Speedforce Savitar are both excluded from this metric, because Team Flash has never encountered and can't really gauge them. Speedforce Savitar was undetectable to anyone but a speedster, so they could never really measure him. Then Caitlyn states his neurons and biometrics are operating at 5 times their previous speed. Because Barry's physical speed and his speed of perception are instrinsically linked (so he doesn't run into a building at Mach 5000), this should be an accurate indication of his boost. I view S4 Flash as 5 times faster than S3 Flash as a result, which is the second piece of putting Speedforce Savitar above current Barry.

Speedforce Savitar was much, much more than 5 times faster than S3 Barry, he was hundreds of times faster at least.

As for Flashtime, while it's absurdely impressive, easily/conservatively hundreds of times FTL, the show gave the sense that that's not undoable for speedsters below Barry. Jay and Jessie were also able to move that fast, albeit for a much shorter span of time, and without the ability to bring other individuals into Flashtime. Jay has made it clear that in his age he's actually declining in speed, and he already lost to Zoom years prior to this. That indicates that Zoom could keep this speed for a limited time, and by scaling Savitar certainly could as well. Same applies to Jessie, as she wasn't in Savitar's league either. I think Savitar could maintain that speed longer than either Jay or Jessie, but still shorter than Barry (who I think was also taxed more heavily because of his Flashtime technique). Speedforce Savitar was much faster than physical Savitar.

Barry is definitely the fastest of the physical speedsters, and I think Thawne is the only one who's even particularly close at this point. However, Black Flash and Speedforce Savitar are metaphysical beings who can draw directly from the Speedforce, which I think still puts them at a seperate level (but it's also kind of a different ballgame altogether).