CW Al Sah-Him vs 3 Top SHIELD Agents: TWS Black Widow, AoS Daisy and Bobbi Morse *H2H only*

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StealthGrey

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Poll CW Al Sah-Him vs 3 Top SHIELD Agents: TWS Black Widow, AoS Daisy and Bobbi Morse *H2H only* (45 votes)

Oliver will have a foursome 51%
Ladies wrecks his shit hard 33%
Natasha solostomps 9%
Daisy solos 7%
Bobbi solos 0%

Strictly H2h/close quarter combat

No morals with basic knowledge

TWS feats only for Widow, no amp for Daisy

Win by any means

Location: Star City, at night 30 ft apart

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RBT

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Oliver will have a foursome

You are a man of great foresight.

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deactivated-5fd9371ae7062

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Daisy + Natasha could take him in a good fight but Bobbi can potentially solo

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Slade-Prime

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The ladies stomp

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RBT

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The ladies stomp

Do you think Nat with just TWS feats can take on, say, Rene in h2h?

What about Bobbi v Dinah?

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blackspidey2099

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#5  Edited By blackspidey2099

Skye as of AOS S2 has a better unarmed combat feat than anything Oliver's shown in 8 seasons. She's only gotten better since then. Daisy solos.

The only argument for Oliver is some, quite frankly, ridiculous scaling over like 5 seasons which clearly goes against the intended portrayal of his level in unarmed combat.

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BOC

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Daisy and Bobbi take him. I don't recall anything impressive from Nat in TWS; she's pretty useless here.

I have S2 Skye at around Merlyn's level (skill). Current Daisy's a bit better, and Bobbi was solidly above her. Together they out-skill Oliver, by quite a bit.

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Slade-Prime

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#7  Edited By Slade-Prime

@rbt: Nat is useless, luckily Bobbi and Daisy are there. Bobbi beats up Dinah, stop this.

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RBT

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#8  Edited By RBT

@slade-prime said:

@rbt: Nat is useless, luckily Bobbi and Daisy are there. Bobbi beats up Dinah, stop this.

Based on? Dinah has better stats. And I don't really remember any skill feat fro Bobbi that would put her above Dinah.

We'll get to Daisy.

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SquadDoubleYou

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Oliver loses but he's still the winner

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Slade-Prime

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RBT

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#11  Edited By RBT
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blackspidey2099

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Funny how no one has made any argument for Oliver being on S2 Skye’s skill level yet... maybe cause it doesn’t exist?

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Stormdriven

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Bobbi solos, ladies curbstomp

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BOC

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Funny how no one has made any argument for Oliver being on S2 Skye’s skill level yet... maybe cause it doesn’t exist?

His unarmed skill scales near his swordsmanship/bow skill. This can be seen in the numerous instances where he'll throw his bow aside to fight, or the fights where he gets disarmed and performs comparably.

How do you think S2 Skye compares to Nyssa scaling?

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WorldsGreatest

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Black Widow soloes.

Don't recall the AoS cast being very impressive in CQC. Certainly not operating even on a Peak Human level.

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Arcus1

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Are we gonna be making the "Ollie's fights when he's holding his bow are completely irrelevant in an unarmed fight" arguments?

Either way, ladies win this, Daisy and Bobbi would be enough (Widow's rather limited here, but under normal circumstances her plus any of the other agents would be enough as well)

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Stormdriven

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@arcus1: I mean, he does have his bow here. Not that it gives him a win anyway

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blackspidey2099

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@boc said:
@blackspidey2099 said:

Funny how no one has made any argument for Oliver being on S2 Skye’s skill level yet... maybe cause it doesn’t exist?

His unarmed skill scales near his swordsmanship/bow skill. This can be seen in the numerous instances where he'll throw his bow aside to fight, or the fights where he gets disarmed and performs comparably.

How do you think S2 Skye compares to Nyssa scaling?

Scaling Oliver’s unarmed skill to his swordsmanship and bow skill is kinda dumb since he clearly himself thinks he’s a better fighter with weapons than without (a good example is when he fights Ra’s and decides to choose swords instead of going unarmed - if he was as good unarmed as he was with swords, he wouldn’t have made that choice).

I also think Nyssa scaling is pretty overblown since she beats the 6 ninjas in a spar and they were all using weapons. Skye fighting 5 actual named characters in an unarmed fight is far more relevant and impressive in terms of unarmed skill than Nyssa fighting 6 random fodder in a sword fight.

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RBT

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@blackspidey2099:

Scaling Oliver’s unarmed skill to his swordsmanship and bow skill is kinda dumb since he clearly himself thinks he’s a better fighter with weapons than without (a good example is when he fights Ra’s and decides to choose swords instead of going unarmed - if he was as good unarmed as he was with swords, he wouldn’t have made that choice).

Or, you know, its a bit out there, but hear me out . He chose swords because he could kill Ra's with one or two hits from a sword and would not have been able to do same unarmed? I know, crazy.

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Slade-Prime

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subline

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BS, GOAT

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BOC

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#22  Edited By BOC

@blackspidey2099: Yeah, what RBT said. Choosing swords could be for the massive difference in damage output it provides, not a skill gap.

I also think Nyssa scaling is pretty overblown since she beats the 6 ninjas in a spar and they were all using weapons. Skye fighting 5 actual named characters in an unarmed fight is far more relevant and impressive in terms of unarmed skill than Nyssa fighting 6 random fodder in a sword fight.

Being in a spar means Nyssa's opponents were limited in how they attacked, but so was Nyssa. They could have tagged her without the sword, disarmed her with the sword, or stopped their blade right before hitting her (all things Nyssa had to do.) Nyssa also beat 5 LoA in a real fight despite having no room to move.

Now, I do think Daisy's feat is more impressive due to the quality of opponents, but Oliver is far better than Nyssa.

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blackspidey2099

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@rbt said:

@blackspidey2099:

Scaling Oliver’s unarmed skill to his swordsmanship and bow skill is kinda dumb since he clearly himself thinks he’s a better fighter with weapons than without (a good example is when he fights Ra’s and decides to choose swords instead of going unarmed - if he was as good unarmed as he was with swords, he wouldn’t have made that choice).

Or, you know, its a bit out there, but hear me out . He chose swords because he could kill Ra's with one or two hits from a sword and would not have been able to do same unarmed? I know, crazy.

So you admit that Oliver is a far more dangerous combatant with weapons than he is without weapons? Wouldn't that make his showings against Chase that supposedly show Oliver without weapons ~ Oliver with weapons clearly inadmissible?

@boc said:

@blackspidey2099: Yeah, what RBT said. Choosing swords could be for the massive difference in damage output it provides, not a skill gap.

I also think Nyssa scaling is pretty overblown since she beats the 6 ninjas in a spar and they were all using weapons. Skye fighting 5 actual named characters in an unarmed fight is far more relevant and impressive in terms of unarmed skill than Nyssa fighting 6 random fodder in a sword fight.

Being in a spar means Nyssa's opponents were limited in how they attacked, but so was Nyssa. They could have tagged her without the sword, disarmed her with the sword, or stopped their blade right before hitting her (all things Nyssa had to do.) Nyssa also beat 5 LoA in a real fight despite having no room to move.

Now, I do think Daisy's feat is more impressive due to the quality of opponents, but Oliver is far better than Nyssa.

Armed Oliver is far better than armed Nyssa, and unarmed Oliver is far better than unarmed Nyssa. However, I'm not convinced that unarmed Oliver is far better than armed Nyssa.

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BOC

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@blackspidey2099:

Armed Oliver is far better than armed Nyssa, and unarmed Oliver is far better than unarmed Nyssa. However, I'm not convinced that unarmed Oliver is far better than armed Nyssa.

Right, and unarmed Oliver scales near armed Oliver. Since armed Oliver is >> Skye, so is unarmed Oliver.

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blackspidey2099

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@boc said:

@blackspidey2099:

Armed Oliver is far better than armed Nyssa, and unarmed Oliver is far better than unarmed Nyssa. However, I'm not convinced that unarmed Oliver is far better than armed Nyssa.

Right, and unarmed Oliver scales near armed Oliver. Since armed Oliver is >> Skye, so is unarmed Oliver.

I'm not convinced that unarmed Oliver is consistently at the same level as armed Oliver due to intent. The only way you can scale them to the same level is "Oliver performed around the same against Chase with and without weapons" which is clearly vague as hell for multiple reasons. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, and the claim that Oliver is as good without a weapon as he is with one certainly falls underneath that banner.

Although if we use that logic, current Daisy >> S2 Skye anyways, so they should still be around the same level at the very least.

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Kevd4wg

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BS spittin facts tbh. AoS Stomps

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#27  Edited By BOC

@blackspidey2099:

I'm not convinced that unarmed Oliver is consistently at the same level as armed Oliver due to intent. The only way you can scale them to the same level is "Oliver performed around the same against Chase with and without weapons" which is clearly vague as hell for multiple reasons. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, and the claim that Oliver is as good without a weapon as he is with one certainly falls underneath that banner.

How is it vague? Oliver and Chase are around equal when fighting with weapons, and they're around equal when Oliver gets disarmed. And that's just one scene off the top of my head. I also mentioned that Oliver will throw his bow aside to fight, and has done so numerous times throughout the show. If anything, saying Oliver becomes drastically worse when he doesn't have a bow in his hand goes against intent.

Although if we use that logic, current Daisy >> S2 Skye anyways, so they should still be around the same level at the very least.

Based on? And to what degree?

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geekryan

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@arcus1 said:

Are we gonna be making the "Ollie's fights when he's holding his bow are completely irrelevant in an unarmed fight" arguments?

Either way, ladies win this, Daisy and Bobbi would be enough (Widow's rather limited here, but under normal circumstances her plus any of the other agents would be enough as well)

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I mean I agree that Oliver loses and that I don’t view as highly in raw unarmed combat as I do the agents but the examples used against Oliver here seems a bit tedious and disingenuous honestly.

Also why even is Skye specifically being used predominantly here anyway? Just seems weird to me. I agree her Alisha feat is highly impressive even better than a lot of Arrow’s feats in his show but all of them? Eh

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@blackspidey2099:

So you admit that Oliver is a far more dangerous combatant with weapons than he is without weapons?

Yes... In the same way a guy with actual sword is more dangerous than the same guy with a wooden sword or no sword. ie. his damage output would increase several fold.

Wouldn't that make his showings against Chase that supposedly show Oliver without weapons ~ Oliver with weapons clearly inadmissible?

No. Because we aren't talking about Chase's durability. We're talking about his skill. Oliver performed no better with a bow(which he uses as a sword according to James Bamford) than he did unarmed. Meaning it doesn't give him a boost of skill like you are claiming to be.

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RBT

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And we're back where we started. At least its clear why AoS fanboys are so hellbent on trying to invalidate the Nyssa scaling. Because even they realize they are screwed if that feat is counted.

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And Ollie still wins. Dinah would beat Bobbi, who is > Dasiy.

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Kevd4wg

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Remember this is legitamate scaling

Oliver Without Bow > Chase < Oliver With Bow = Oliver with Sword > Merlyn > Nyssa > LoA > Whatever you want to scale for

That's 7 pieces of scaling across at least 3 seasons and including a statement from a stuntman in a show that's notoriously inconsistent. But it's somehow more legit than May fighting an army of demons or Skye's stupid S2 scaling that's at least across a few episodes than a few seasons.

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Remember this legitimate scaling.

1 Alisha>May> Current Daisy> S2 Daisy> 5 Alishas

Ah, these kids.

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deactivated-60758db60e021

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Ladies should win here.

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Arcus1

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@rbt said:

@blackspidey2099:

Scaling Oliver’s unarmed skill to his swordsmanship and bow skill is kinda dumb since he clearly himself thinks he’s a better fighter with weapons than without (a good example is when he fights Ra’s and decides to choose swords instead of going unarmed - if he was as good unarmed as he was with swords, he wouldn’t have made that choice).

Or, you know, its a bit out there, but hear me out . He chose swords because he could kill Ra's with one or two hits from a sword and would not have been able to do same unarmed? I know, crazy.

So you admit that Oliver is a far more dangerous combatant with weapons than he is without weapons? Wouldn't that make his showings against Chase that supposedly show Oliver without weapons ~ Oliver with weapons clearly inadmissible?

if we're talking something like a sword, then yeah, that would make a notable difference against an unarmed opponent. But Ollie hardly ever actually uses swords. The main melee weapon he tends to use is just a bow, which isn't even designed to be a cqc weapon and is hardly a game changer. There's been nothing in the show to suggest that Ollie's on some totally different tier when holding his bow in a fight vs when he isn't

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deactivated-5f5eba8f0a2dd

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Why is this Al Sah Him if its h2h? He gets stomped H2H, I've made a bunch of al sah him threads and the only way this is fair is with gear.

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deactivated-6021b09dd509c

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Won't comment , too much wank.

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SupremeGeneration

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Arf

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blackspidey2099

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@boc said:

@blackspidey2099:

I'm not convinced that unarmed Oliver is consistently at the same level as armed Oliver due to intent. The only way you can scale them to the same level is "Oliver performed around the same against Chase with and without weapons" which is clearly vague as hell for multiple reasons. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, and the claim that Oliver is as good without a weapon as he is with one certainly falls underneath that banner.

How is it vague? Oliver and Chase are around equal when fighting with weapons, and they're around equal when Oliver gets disarmed. And that's just one scene off the top of my head. I also mentioned that Oliver will throw his bow aside to fight, and has done so numerous times throughout the show. If anything, saying Oliver becomes drastically worse when he doesn't have a bow in his hand goes against intent.

Although if we use that logic, current Daisy >> S2 Skye anyways, so they should still be around the same level at the very least.

Based on? And to what degree?

I recall Oliver losing to Chase (who was armed) without his bow in their first fight. When Oliver was armed, Oliver was winning until he tried to drug Chase and it didn't work. Throwing his bow aside to fight fodder doesn't really mean anything since Oliver could stomp them no matter what he's using.

Pretty much every fighter gets less effective when they're not using a weapon, since weapons offer increased damage and reach. I don't think it's even really arguable that unarmed Oliver can fight like armed Oliver, especially considering how often he relies on using his bow/sword to parry attacks against other armed named enemies.

Current Daisy has far more experience than S2 Skye and this is pretty clearly shown through the narrative. In S2, Skye was regarded as the rookie/trainee. In S3 and beyond, Daisy is regarded as one of SHIELD's premier fighters.

@rbt said:

@blackspidey2099:

So you admit that Oliver is a far more dangerous combatant with weapons than he is without weapons?

Yes... In the same way a guy with actual sword is more dangerous than the same guy with a wooden sword or no sword. ie. his damage output would increase several fold.

Wouldn't that make his showings against Chase that supposedly show Oliver without weapons ~ Oliver with weapons clearly inadmissible?

No. Because we aren't talking about Chase's durability. We're talking about his skill. Oliver performed no better with a bow(which he uses as a sword according to James Bamford) than he did unarmed. Meaning it doesn't give him a boost of skill like you are claiming to be.

I'm not saying weapons give Oliver a magical "skill boost"... I'm saying that they make him a much more effective melee combatant. Oliver isn't some rookie who doesn't know how to use a sword/bow, he is an expert with those weapons and obviously uses them to their full effect. Do you really think an unarmed Oliver would stalemate a clone of himself who had a sword? Unless you honestly think so (which would be laughable to be honest) my point still stands.

@arcus1 said:
@blackspidey2099 said:
@rbt said:

@blackspidey2099:

Scaling Oliver’s unarmed skill to his swordsmanship and bow skill is kinda dumb since he clearly himself thinks he’s a better fighter with weapons than without (a good example is when he fights Ra’s and decides to choose swords instead of going unarmed - if he was as good unarmed as he was with swords, he wouldn’t have made that choice).

Or, you know, its a bit out there, but hear me out . He chose swords because he could kill Ra's with one or two hits from a sword and would not have been able to do same unarmed? I know, crazy.

So you admit that Oliver is a far more dangerous combatant with weapons than he is without weapons? Wouldn't that make his showings against Chase that supposedly show Oliver without weapons ~ Oliver with weapons clearly inadmissible?

if we're talking something like a sword, then yeah, that would make a notable difference against an unarmed opponent. But Ollie hardly ever actually uses swords. The main melee weapon he tends to use is just a bow, which isn't even designed to be a cqc weapon and is hardly a game changer. There's been nothing in the show to suggest that Ollie's on some totally different tier when holding his bow in a fight vs when he isn't

I mean, RBT just referenced a statement saying Oliver uses his bow like a sword. In terms of Nyssa scaling, Oliver beat Nyssa once by shooting her with a net arrow, and the other time was a sword fight. Nyssa said Malcolm was a better swordfighter than she is, but Oliver hasn't beat Malcolm using a sword without his own weapons.

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@blackspidey2099:

I recall Oliver losing to Chase (who was armed) without his bow in their first fight. When Oliver was armed, Oliver was winning until he tried to drug Chase and it didn't work.

Here is a compilation of all their fights. They're practically equal in all of them. Slight changes are expected in fights, but the hit counts are similar. Chase doesn't win the first fight either - it's inconclusive. Unarmed Oliver manages to land tons of hits and counters. If armed Oliver was drastically better, he would have stomped Chase.

Throwing his bow aside to fight fodder doesn't really mean anything since Oliver could stomp them no matter what he's using.

It's not just fodder, though. He tossed it aside to fight Chase (before Chase did the same.) Even tossed it aside to fight an army of shadow demons, when millions of lives were at stake. Clearly if he thought he was massively better with a bow in his hand, he wouldn't do this.

Pretty much every fighter gets less effective when they're not using a weapon, since weapons offer increased damage and reach. I don't think it's even really arguable that unarmed Oliver can fight like armed Oliver, especially considering how often he relies on using his bow/sword to parry attacks against other armed named enemies.

While this is true in real life, it hardly needs to apply in fiction (often doesn't.) Feats, intent and portrayal all suggest that this isn't the case for Arrow. Really I don't see an argument against it.

Current Daisy has far more experience than S2 Skye and this is pretty clearly shown through the narrative. In S2, Skye was regarded as the rookie/trainee. In S3 and beyond, Daisy is regarded as one of SHIELD's premier fighters.

I mean, Oliver has also had years of experience after his training with Ra's. Daisy would need to have gotten much better. Something I don't really think we can quantify without a comparison to her old self.

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Arcus1

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#42  Edited By Arcus1

@blackspidey2099 said:
@arcus1 said:
@blackspidey2099 said:
@rbt said:

@blackspidey2099:

Scaling Oliver’s unarmed skill to his swordsmanship and bow skill is kinda dumb since he clearly himself thinks he’s a better fighter with weapons than without (a good example is when he fights Ra’s and decides to choose swords instead of going unarmed - if he was as good unarmed as he was with swords, he wouldn’t have made that choice).

Or, you know, its a bit out there, but hear me out . He chose swords because he could kill Ra's with one or two hits from a sword and would not have been able to do same unarmed? I know, crazy.

So you admit that Oliver is a far more dangerous combatant with weapons than he is without weapons? Wouldn't that make his showings against Chase that supposedly show Oliver without weapons ~ Oliver with weapons clearly inadmissible?

if we're talking something like a sword, then yeah, that would make a notable difference against an unarmed opponent. But Ollie hardly ever actually uses swords. The main melee weapon he tends to use is just a bow, which isn't even designed to be a cqc weapon and is hardly a game changer. There's been nothing in the show to suggest that Ollie's on some totally different tier when holding his bow in a fight vs when he isn't

I mean, RBT just referenced a statement saying Oliver uses his bow like a sword. In terms of Nyssa scaling, Oliver beat Nyssa once by shooting her with a net arrow, and the other time was a sword fight. Nyssa said Malcolm was a better swordfighter than she is, but Oliver hasn't beat Malcolm using a sword without his own weapons.

A sword lets you cut your opponent, a bow doesn't. When we're talking about armed Oliver, are you referring to Oliver with a sword (which he hardly ever uses) or Oliver with just his bow?

@blackspidey2099 said:

I'm not saying weapons give Oliver a magical "skill boost"... I'm saying that they make him a much more effective melee combatant. Oliver isn't some rookie who doesn't know how to use a sword/bow, he is an expert with those weapons and obviously uses them to their full effect. Do you really think an unarmed Oliver would stalemate a clone of himself who had a sword? Unless you honestly think so (which would be laughable to be honest) my point still stands.

I think an unarmed Oliver would stalemate a clone of himself with just a bow. The bow offers a moderate reach extension and the ability to block blades (which makes no difference against an unarmed opponent), while not holding the bow means that both hands are free for grappling. Ollie can't go putting the bow down every time he gets into a fight, and it's handy to have available for archery purposes, so he incorporates it into his fighting style, but it doesn't offer any particularly significant advantage

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@blackspidey2099:

I'm not saying weapons give Oliver a magical "skill boost"... I'm saying that they make him a much more effective melee combatant. Oliver isn't some rookie who doesn't know how to use a sword/bow, he is an expert with those weapons and obviously uses them to their full effect. Do you really think an unarmed Oliver would stalemate a clone of himself who had a sword? Unless you honestly think so (which would be laughable to be honest) my point still stands.

Oliver could stalemate a clone of himself with a bow. He would lose to a clone of himself with a sword.

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#46  Edited By the_magister

Solid

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Al Sah Him