Current TOAA vs The Presence (DC)

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deactivated-5dcfd39cce459

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Poll: Current TOAA vs The Presence (DC) (52 votes)

TOAA 31%
Presence 69%
No Caption Provided
  • TOAA after infinity ending
  • the presence has powers
  • location: neutral
  • who would win
 • 
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ShadowRazer24

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lmao.

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deactivated-5dcfd39cce459

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deactivated-5dcfd39cce459

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Bumping

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deactivated-5e0e83bb0dbb5

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Presence stomps.

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Earendill

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HAHAHAHAHA!

The Presence blink and Marvel wiped out from the entity.

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ByondEon

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Current is still Omni-everything..

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Anomalous

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Don't they both have equally infinite amount of power? Should just be a stalemate no?

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DCandMarvelComicFan

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mbatz

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@dcandmarvelcomicfan: He stated himself not to be omnipotent to the living tribunal he was created and function because of an external system omniversal system when the system broke he’s powers were seemingly shut off as he said he functioned because the system was orderly which he said isn’t anymore. Presence has no such restrictions to he’s power and whilst he himself was also created by the external forces (Monitor mind the overvoid) it doesn’t or restrict he’s power but allows him to do as he pleases.

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Underfire47

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@mbatz:

1. Presence was not created by the overvoid.

2. IF he was created by it, that would also mean he isn't omnipotent and therefore the overvoid could if he wanted to restrict his powers.

3. TOAA Starlin is not written the same as with every other writer, who even AFTER Starlins Infinity Ending said TOAA is omnipotent, which either means they have a different interpretation than him or Starlin Infinity Ending isn't even canon.

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EineFaust

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Presence is shaped by imagination of sentient beings too.

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Sup3rn0va

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Presence

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solaris6

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#14  Edited By solaris6

Honestly, i'd take the whole TOAA not being omnipotent as inconsistent, given how there have been some versions that are completely different, but are omnipotent. Such as Jack Kirby's appearances etc.

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mbatz

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@underfire47:

1. I never said he was created by the overvoid I said he was created by external forces, I put overvoid in brackets as a suggestion but I do understand it is definitely a fault on my half for not making it clear, but the only external forces we know of that dwarf the presence is the overvoid

2. If he was created by the overvoid as you said it would mean he isn’t the strongest omnipotent being or rather he doesn’t function at the strongest level of omnipotence in the DCverse, but he could potentially surpass whatever external forces created him, the same way Luce is gre stronger despite conservation of energy-mass laws which dont apply in DC.

3. It doesn’t matter how TOAA is written, it’s whatever authors fault for having LT ask TOAA if he was omnipotent only for TOAA say he‘s power functions because of an external system which is broken, meaning he’s powers seemingly don’t function but definitely means that retard of an author introduced the fact there are forces that restrict even TOAA

That still means unrestricted TOAA = Presence, it’s just as he exists know he would lose. But more importantly Marvel tried to make an entity, external system to counter the monitor mind but since that system broke it would be below monitor mind.

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mbatz

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Presence the one above all wins

Its a throwback to the 1980 Spectre where spectre called the presence, the one above all or presence

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Underfire47

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@mbatz:

1. You put overvoid, i don't see why deny it, but even that wasn't meant as anything else other than different religions imagine him differently, Christianty, Islam, Buddhism, etc... Not that there is anything above him because in DC there isn't.

2. He wasn't created by the overvoid.

3. It absolutely matters how TOAA is written, that's the thing that matters the most. Starlin doesn't hold monopoly over TOAA and it's questionable if his run is canon at all.

Yea, that would mean that but the OP didn't but "stalemate/draw" as an option, in fact TOAA made this thread with ulterior motives since he keeps getting banned on his alts for being a troll.

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DCandMarvelComicFan

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Underfire47

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@dcandmarvelcomicfan: No, it was a one-time story from Starlin, it was his last story at Marvel in fact since they had a falling with one another and Starlin will no longer be writing for Marvel.

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mbatz

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@underfire47: @dcandmarvelcomicfan: What he means is whilst it indeed was a one time thing marvel never went back to the topic of as to whether the system has been fixed so the correct answers is it is unknown unless underfire47 you bring evidence suggesting otherwise

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Underfire47

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@mbatz: Marvel never even acknowledged or referenced the story anywhere, we still don't know if it's actually canon or not in the first place. We are likely not going to get any mention of it anywhere.

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mbatz

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@underfire47:

1. Like I said I did kind of imply he was created by overvoid but that is because there is no one else in the entirety of DC that we know off that could fill the shoes to have created the presence, Presence said he was made by external forces superior to him, who else could it be but monitor mind, that’s why I implied it to be him.

2. I never said he was made by overvoid just suggested it and with good reasoning as shown above

3. The writing does matter but I think you misinterpret the message I’m saying, the author has said TOAA is controlled by external forces that has yet to be countered by other authors until then it is permanently apart of main continuity whether you like it or not

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_Logos_

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#23  Edited By _Logos_

There is no possible way to determine how a battle between these two would go down.

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mbatz

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@underfire47: What do you mean? It’s canon it happened in main continuity it’s canon

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TakenStew22

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@_logos_ said:

There is no possible way to determine how a battle between these two would go down.

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mbatz

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Presence wins and I can explain if need be but read my past posts first

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Y3kthunder

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#27  Edited By Y3kthunder

Mike. Carey already explained the external forces ge meant real people religion thats those forces the presence is only one aspect of his true self yhwah just like the word the source the hand etc are the presence is the his avatar

The overmoniter or overvoid didn't create him

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DCandMarvelComicFan

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crackshotboi

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Presence blinks

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Underfire47

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@mbatz: Because a lot of Starlin stories are not canon, most people thought HOTU was canon than Brevoort came out and said it wasn't. It also doesn't help that it's one of the most massive things to happen in all of Marvel Universe and it affected everyone yet it wasn't referenced in a single other comic.

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Ramakushna

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Presence blinks

this, at this point Lucifer Morningstar or Great Evil Beast can solo marvel verse

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Lsoon23

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I'll put my bets on the one with a better cosmology.

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etriel

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DarkDementor101

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@_logos_ said:

There is no possible way to determine how a battle between these two would go down.

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FiendishMind

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#36  Edited By FiendishMind
@dcandmarvelcomicfan said:

@mbatz: @underfire47: then someone needs to retcon Starlin's crap then

Given that I can't find a single instance of any other Marvel creator using or acknowledging any of Starlin's changes or events from any of his work since he went back to writing for Marvel in 2013, I'm doubting we are going to see any specific "retcon" addressing his work.

Honestly though, if you're going to assume Starlin's work is explicit canon you're going to have to reconcile the fact he ignored established continuity for his last trilogy and if his changes are to be treated as retcons, that means he undid significant changes and events across a fairly large number of titles, some of which are still ongoing.

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user96

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Presence.

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etriel

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#38  Edited By etriel

@y3kthunder:

And Matteis already confirmed that the "Creator" is not the True Presence, but just an aspect of the True Presence.

No Caption Provided

So again, any instance of "the Presence is dreamed" can easily be dismissed as just an Avatar. That the Presence uses to interact with lower beings.

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deactivated-5ddaa91b5f860

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@etriel said:

@y3kthunder:

And Matteis already confirmed that the "Creator" is not the True Presence, but just an aspect of the True Presence.

No Caption Provided

So again, any instance of "the Presence is dreamed" can easily be dismissed as just an Avatar. That the Presence uses to interact with lower beings.

Is Presence > monitors ?

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etriel

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#40  Edited By etriel

@kursetoaa:

Yes.

This proves that Rox Ogama did not, kill the Presence.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Here is Spectre, stating that the True Presence is the Void outside all other Voids.

No Caption Provided

True Presence/Void beyond all Voids > Overvoid > Monitors

It's kind of simple really, this isn't hard to understand.

And for anyone trying to bullshit that the Spectre 2001 and the N52 Justice League Dark stories are Vertigo stories? Wrong.

No Caption Provided

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deactivated-5ddaa91b5f860

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@etriel said:

@kursetoaa:

Yes.

This proves that Rox Ogama did not, kill the Presence.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Here is Spectre, stating that the True Presence is the Void outside all other Voids.

No Caption Provided

Presence/Void beyond all Voids > Overvoid > Monitors

It's kind of simple really, this isn't hard to understand.

And for anyone trying to bullshit that the Spectre 2001 and the N52 Justice League Dark stories are Vertigo stories? Wrong.

No Caption Provided

So Presence >>> anyone in marvel and DC?

Scathan did make some good argumenrs, for thought robot but I feel his monitors/presence debate is a lot of cherry-picking stuff and from you too..

but I am pretty sure The Presence is a true omnipotent.

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etriel

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#42  Edited By etriel

@kursetoaa:

So Presence >>> anyone in marvel and DC?

The True "Omnipotent" Presence stalemates Pre-Retcon TOAA. As for the Presence's avatar? Hard to say.

Greg Rucka, who literally worked on Final Crisis by Grant's request, literally stated the Presence is the most powerful in the DCU by the time of the FC era.

No Caption Provided

Grant Morrison, wrote a comic confirming that the Presence is impersonal/everywhere and nowhere. Just like the Source.

No Caption Provided

So how did it come to be, that Rox Ogama who was killed by Green Lanterns, killed the Presence when Morrison thinks Presence is nothing/everything, transdual and should be unbound to the concept of Death? And should not be killed by a Physical drain attack?

Even Grant Morrison think that is stupid. As he wrote a story that demonstrated a lesson that you cannot "attack" the Presence he is ultimately futile.

If DC was intending to replace the Presence as the most powerful character, all writers would have been notified and these things would not have happened:

  • Greg Rucka, who is taking orders from Morrison, would not have said this. During that time in his Final Crisis interview.
  • JM De Matteis, who has written more about the Presence than other DC writers, would not say this and go on to make the Presence transcendent to the Void. And will of course, continue to write stories presenting the Presence as Supremo.

I have no idea what arguments from Scathan you think is convincing, but my point is that DC is not this "Oh lawl al da Monitors stomp" logic.

It doesn't matter how many misinterpreted scans he shows up. When we have writers left and right going against this. And has a lot of headscratchers and plotholes.

The most unbiased conclusion, is that they are misinterpreting the "Mandrakk killed Presence lel" scan when you really think that this is just talking about the Dying Wounded God, Darkseid.

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deactivated-5ddaa91b5f860

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@etriel said:

@kursetoaa:

So Presence >>> anyone in marvel and DC?

The True "Omnipotent" Presence stalemates Pre-Retcon TOAA. As for the Presence's avatar? Hard to say.

Greg Rucka, who literally worked on Final Crisis by Grant's request, literally stated the Presence is the most powerful in the DCU by the time of the FC era.

No Caption Provided

Grant Morrison, wrote a comic confirming that the Presence is impersonal/everywhere and nowhere. Just like the Source.

No Caption Provided

If DC was intending to replace the Presence as the most powerful character, all writers would have been notified.

Greg Rucka, who is taking orders from Morrison, would not have said this.

JM De Matteis, who has written more about the Presence than other DC writers, would not say this and go on to make the Presence transcendent to the Void.

I have no idea what arguments from Scathan you think is convincing, but my point is that DC is not this "Oh lawl al da Monitors stomp" logic.

It doesn't matter how many misinterpreted scans he shows up. When we have writers left and right going against this.

Ok fine, but OLD TOAA you meant the one from Starlin books??

i am sure Beyonder > Current TOAA

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deactivated-5e0e83bb0dbb5

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@kursetoaa said:
@etriel said:

@kursetoaa:

So Presence >>> anyone in marvel and DC?

The True "Omnipotent" Presence stalemates Pre-Retcon TOAA. As for the Presence's avatar? Hard to say.

Greg Rucka, who literally worked on Final Crisis by Grant's request, literally stated the Presence is the most powerful in the DCU by the time of the FC era.

No Caption Provided

Grant Morrison, wrote a comic confirming that the Presence is impersonal/everywhere and nowhere. Just like the Source.

No Caption Provided

If DC was intending to replace the Presence as the most powerful character, all writers would have been notified.

Greg Rucka, who is taking orders from Morrison, would not have said this.

JM De Matteis, who has written more about the Presence than other DC writers, would not say this and go on to make the Presence transcendent to the Void.

I have no idea what arguments from Scathan you think is convincing, but my point is that DC is not this "Oh lawl al da Monitors stomp" logic.

It doesn't matter how many misinterpreted scans he shows up. When we have writers left and right going against this.

Ok fine, but OLD TOAA you meant the one from Starlin books??

i am sure Beyonder > Current TOAA

Both were retconned, so it's wrong to scale from the old TOAA or to scale from what he used to be (Pre-Retcon). TOAA has more restriction, when it comes to reality warping. Beyonder wins.

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etriel

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@kursetoaa:

I'm talking about the Pre-Retcon TOAA who was Omnipotent. Before his Anti-Feats in new times of Marvel's recorded history (the now).

Omnipotent vs Omnipotent = Stalemate.

That's why the True Presence and the Pre-Retcon TOAA stalemate.

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destinyman75

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Squirrel Girl makes pets of them Both

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deactivated-5ddaa91b5f860

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@etriel said:

@kursetoaa:

I'm talking about the Pre-Retcon TOAA who was Omnipotent. Before his Anti-Feats in new times of Marvel's recorded history (the now).

Omnipotent vs Omnipotent = Stalemate.

That's why the True Presence and the Pre-Retcon TOAA stalemate.

Ok thanks. But current version does presence wins ?

whatabout Pre retcon beyonder vs current toaa?

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etriel

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#49  Edited By etriel

@kursetoaa said:

Ok thanks. But current version does presence wins ?

Unfortunately yes.

Contrary to popular belief, I did not abandon arguing for Marvel because I liked DC more. I do not like the half of the debaters that represented it, which stirred from me, a strong devil's advocate response.

It was also funny trolling Marvel trolls (not rational Marvel debaters) who claimed DC God tiers were nigh-featless when it is easy to point out that Marvel abstracts are also mostly hype/statments/implied/bad lowshowings and anti-feats as well.

whatabout Pre retcon beyonder vs current toaa?

Hard to say.

Current TOAA scales to a Quantum Multiverse, and Marvel's Multiverse runs on this (more and more infinities per moment).

But Beyonder scaled to Infinite Layered Higher Dimensions (sort of?) I don't know.

Depends on your interpretation of which Cosmology type is superior.

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@etriel said:
@kursetoaa said:

Ok thanks. But current version does presence wins ?

Unfortunately yes.

Contrary to popular belief, I did not abandon arguing for Marvel because I liked DC more. I do not like the half of the debaters that represented it, which stirred from me, a strong devil's advocate response.

It was also funny trolling Marvel trolls (not rational Marvel debaters) who claimed DC God tiers were nigh-featless when it is easy to point out that Marvel abstracts are also mostly hype/statments/implied/bad lowshowings and anti-feats as well.

whatabout Pre retcon beyonder vs current toaa?

Hard to say.

Current TOAA scales to a Quantum Multiverse, and Marvel's Multiverse runs on this (more and more infinities per moment).

But Beyonder scaled to Infinite Layered Higher Dimensions (sort of?) I don't know.

Depends on your interpretation of the Cosmology.

Seems right. Remember Stezzy, Animal and Scathan... those three are the most hard to talk with.. they lowball Lucifer and thought robot (Scathan believes Lucifer < Monitors.)