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#1 Edited by FaradaySloth (5120 posts) - - Show Bio

-King and Mael versions from their fight

-Ichibe and Yhwach versions from their fight as well

-Standard Gear

-Bloodlusted

-No knowledge nor prep

-Win by Death Only

-Yhwach can use Aushwalen to boost himself if needed to.

-Location takes place in the sky.

-Powers are equalized

*NO RESTRICTIONS*

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#2 Posted by B3rnkastel (199 posts) - - Show Bio

If King get's a scratch on either of them, and then spam's Disaster(since this is no restrictions and bloodlust),I feel like this would be pretty easy with just him. The only issue is that I personally can't place any speed or range of speed for either verses. I don't wanna make any gross assumptions so I'd like for others to comment in that department.

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#3 Edited by ValorKnight (11077 posts) - - Show Bio

King could honestly solo.

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#4 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7332 posts) - - Show Bio

I think team bleach wins

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#5 Posted by DemonGod_PABLO (1323 posts) - - Show Bio

Almighty + conceptual level hax = stomp

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#6 Posted by Godren (3278 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol what is this thread,how is this even remotely a battle.

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#7 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

Team NnT without much trouble.

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#8 Posted by Azureus (2211 posts) - - Show Bio

There is not a single reason why the sins would win. All hype because some character's numbers are getting big.

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#9 Posted by KingGuinness (1642 posts) - - Show Bio

Um, Ichibe and Yhwach stomp.

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#10 Posted by PlanetBuster012 (448 posts) - - Show Bio

It's always a joy bouncing between different battle forum logic XD.

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#11 Posted by FaradaySloth (5120 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#12 Posted by FaradaySloth (5120 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#13 Edited by HitTheAssasin (7295 posts) - - Show Bio

King and Mael dominate using actual feats.

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#14 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7332 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureus said:

There is not a single reason why the sins would win. All hype because some character's numbers are getting big.

King and Mael dominate using actual feats.

FIGHT!

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#15 Posted by kroczilla (1647 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureus said:

There is not a single reason why the sins would win. All hype because some character's numbers are getting big.

Because they have legit quantifiable feats, unlike some characters......

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#17 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7295 posts) - - Show Bio

@kroczilla: Showings that demonstrate power above city-block level, I'd say. Ichibei is featless(apart from 1, highly debatable speed showing), he gets oneshot by Lightball Of Love. This Yhwach also has no energy durability feats to suggest he can tank it either, so he dies as well.

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#18 Posted by PlanetBuster012 (448 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol what cancer did I just read, you do realize Ichibe is a conceptual manipulator and holds dominion over all thing black in the bleachverse correct?

The amount of cognitive dissonance one would have to go through to say Ichibe is city block is astounding.

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#19 Posted by KeyChain (661 posts) - - Show Bio

Yhwach Solo's, faster and better hax

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#20 Edited by Thenewguysnm1 (7332 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7295 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1: I don't really care. I'm happy he didn't tag me either way, dealing with people who can't read or comprehend what I say isn't exactly how I like to spend my time.

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#22 Posted by kroczilla (1647 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin:

*sigh*

> "showings above city block level"

Yep. Cause ywach and ichibei are apparently lieutenant shinigami level.

Cause ywach casually oneshotting Yamamoto who tanked a multi city busting explosion is apparently city block level.

Cause the likes of ulquiorra and h2 ichigo who would be absolute fodders to ywach were apparently city block level.

I really can keep going.

> "ichibei featless. Debatable speed showing"

I guess they changed the dictionary meaning of featless when I wasn't looking.

As for "debatable speef feat", there really wasn't anything debatable about it. Not to mention, ywach has a much better feat of reacting to mimihagi from point blank range.

>"ywach has no energy durability to suggest he can tank it"

Tanking a GT from a serious post RG ichigo is more than enough though. Not to mention ywach literally doesn't need to move a finger to kill them both whereas they can't even kill him.

As for ichibei, even if they somehow manage to kill him before they get turned turned to ants, ywach literally only needs to say his name and ichibei is back in the game as good as new.

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#23 Posted by PlanetBuster012 (448 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1: I don't really care. I'm happy he didn't tag me either way, dealing with people who can't read or comprehend what I say isn't exactly how I like to spend my time.

I understood and comprehended every word you said,but i'm not sure if you understood a word you said yourself,that entire post was complete nonsensical drivel and only worth a sly remark.

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#24 Edited by HitTheAssasin (7295 posts) - - Show Bio

@kroczilla:

> "showings above city block level"

Yep. Cause ywach and ichibei are apparently lieutenant shinigami level.

I said via pure feats/showings. If you want to use scaling, of course they're above that level. This is precisely why I don't like to deal with people like you.

Cause ywach casually oneshotting Yamamoto who tanked a multi city busting explosion is apparently city block level.

Considering that was a depleted, exhausted Yamamoto who had just been cut in half by Yhwach and was on the verge of death, yeah, that qualifies as about city-block level.

Cause the likes of ulquiorra and h2 ichigo who would be absolute fodders to ywach were apparently city block level.

Once again, by pure showings. Obviously, Ichibei is above that level via scaling.

> "ichibei featless. Debatable speed showing"

I guess they changed the dictionary meaning of featless when I wasn't looking.

He's really almost featless. All of his hype comes from scaling, as well as that 1,000 Ri thing, which is travel speed. I forgot one feat though, which is him smacking Yhwach hundreds of miles away(even though, visually, it wasn't nearly that much, but I'll just count it for the sake of making an argument), that's reasonably solid and should be above city-block level.

As for "debatable speef feat", there really wasn't anything debatable about it.

You're right, it's definitely a travel speed feat and thus, not applicable here.

Not to mention, ywach has a much better feat of reacting to mimihagi from point blank range.

Mimihagi's entire hype comes from his travel speed feat, where he had time and space to accelerate over many kilometres, where as, when he attacked Yhwach, he only had a couple of meters. In other words, an unquantifiable feat. King's feat of outpacing and blitzing 4 Commandment Mael, who moved at the absolute least 5 to 10 times faster than a serious Mach 300++ Meliodas back when he only had 1 Commandment(and no Archangel powers), is far above an speed feats you could present for Team Bleach.

Tanking a GT from a serious post RG ichigo is more than enough though.

Not really. Shikai Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou has no showings to suggest it's comparable to full power blasts from King and Mael, which are multi-mountain with just feats and mountain range+ with scaling.

Not to mention ywach literally doesn't need to move a finger to kill them both whereas they can't even kill him.

Yhwach has no way to kill either King or Mael without moving.

As for ichibei, even if they somehow manage to kill him before they get turned turned to ants, ywach literally only needs to say his name and ichibei is back in the game as good as new.

Ichiebi can't be revived an unlimited amount of times this way, he has to steal power from the person saying his name to do this and I highly doubt Yhwach letting that happen. Not to mention that Ichibei's never revived from being disintegrated into dust, so you'd have to provide feats of him doing so before this ever becomes a valid option against Kings Spirit Spear blasts or Mael's Lightball of Love. Besides, why would Yhwach ever call his name? Ichibei's his sworn enemy, he wouldn't revive him of his own free will.

On-topic: Mael seals both Yhwach's and Ichibei's powers with Scythe of Silence and then one shots with Lightball Of Love. Or he downs Yhwach using a power the latter has shown to be susceptible too, illusions, using Incense of Purity.

Though, to be fair, I'd have to ask @faradaysloth whether Scythe of Silence will work here(are powers equalised, or not?).

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#25 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7295 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin said:

@thenewguysnm1: I don't really care. I'm happy he didn't tag me either way, dealing with people who can't read or comprehend what I say isn't exactly how I like to spend my time.

I understood and comprehended every word you said,but i'm not sure if you understood a word you said yourself,that entire post was complete nonsensical drivel and only worth a sly remark.

If you're not going to reply to me properly with an actual argument, don't tag me. Actually, it's probably best if you don't tag me, period. Thanks.

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#26 Posted by FaradaySloth (5120 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: I think it would be unfair if they weren’t equalized, so yeah I’ll allow it.

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#27 Posted by Gaoron (7345 posts) - - Show Bio

Yhwach solos tbh.

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#28 Posted by kroczilla (1647 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin:

1) every single series uses scaling of some kind. Even NNT. deal with it.

2) Yamamoto being depleted or on the verge of death is pure fan fiction on your part. Yamamoto literally went bankai again the second he saw the real yhwach. He wouldn't have been able to do that if he was depleted or on the verge of death as per already established rules in the bleach lore.

3) that speed feat from ichibei is much better than anything in the NNT verse. And that was ichibei literally playing around. He didn't get serious until yhawch tagged him with arrows. And given that shinigamis use the same speed technique for both travel and combat (shunpo) the burden is on you to prove that ichibei somehow got slower in combat. Good luck.

Mimihagi covered a distance that took mhs characters hours to travel in mere seconds and ywach reacted to him from point blank range. That's a ridiculously impressive. Massively above the NNT cast. And since we are arbitrarily throwing numbers around, base ichigo also casually blitzed the female sternritters who were all casually triple digit mach. And he would absolutely get spanked by either ywach or ichibei.

It's funny though that you can arbitrarily determine a xter to be "5 times faster than his opponent" with zero proof yet have a problem with scaling that complies with already set rules and lore. Just saying.

As for ichibei's other feats, does casually crushing reishi constructs from ywach (one of which one shot Yamamoto) count? Or how about casually smashing ywach's blut vein (gremmy alone was easily island lvl and ywach was his superior)

4) ichigo's GT casually vaporised the top of the soul king palace. That's more impressive on paper than 4 commandment mael who couldn't bust the goddess sky temple in one attack. And ywach no sold said GT BTW.

5) "the almighty" says hi.

The assumption here is that they can tag ichibei before they get inked which simply won't happen as he has the vastly superior speed feat and the power to literally one shot them. Heck mael is doubly screwed as he utilises the power of darkness. Guess who has dominion over All things black.

Lol. Scythe of silence isn't doing Jack. Ichibei got his powers stolen (which is even worse) and still retained dominion over them. And ywach was literally reduced to the stature of an ant and the almighty simply lolnoped the situation.

As for illusions, it's not even close to KS. Not to mention they get murdered long before that.

In summary; either ywach or ichibei could solo.

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#29 Edited by B_r023 (5197 posts) - - Show Bio

Ichebie is borderline featless, he is a non-factor here. You can cry about him being stronger and all from other characters but unless he has good feats on paper, he is useless in battle forums.

It all comes down to Ywach's Almighty which is already proven to be a NFL by Ishida since he couldn't even dodge an arrow. And no Ywach's powers were only negated after the arrow hit him.

King and Mael should win unless Ywach can blitz them right off the bat.

5/5 honestly for me.

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#30 Edited by Hope_w (2023 posts) - - Show Bio

@planetbuster012 said:
@hittheassasin said:

@thenewguysnm1: I don't really care. I'm happy he didn't tag me either way, dealing with people who can't read or comprehend what I say isn't exactly how I like to spend my time.

I understood and comprehended every word you said,but i'm not sure if you understood a word you said yourself,that entire post was complete nonsensical drivel and only worth a sly remark.

Rofl! Oh god that sounds familiar. Try applying that energy to an argument, team 1 curbs

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#31 Edited by Bionar (970 posts) - - Show Bio

Yhwach loses

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#32 Edited by HitTheAssasin (7295 posts) - - Show Bio

@kroczilla:

1) every single series uses scaling of some kind. Even NNT. deal with it.

Of course it does, I never denied it. Regardless, the scaling used for Ichibei is nothing short of fan fiction for the most part, since we have no idea how he compares to the other high tiers in the verse.

2) Yamamoto being depleted or on the verge of death is pure fan fiction on your part. Yamamoto literally went bankai again the second he saw the real yhwach. He wouldn't have been able to do that if he was depleted or on the verge of death as per already established rules in the bleach lore.

Wait, which feat were you referring to? The one where Yhwach cuts Yamamoto in half, or the one where he blasts a near dead Yama? If it's the first one, that's not impressive wither way, since Yamamoto has no good piercing durability feats to make it so. If it's the second one, Yamamoto was clearly on the verge of death(if he wasn't already dead by then), seeing as to how he had just been cut in half and then got his hand cut off as well:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Bleach Chapter 511: Die Standing

So, equating either of those feats with Yamamoto tanking his own flames is fallacious.

3) that speed feat from ichibei is much better than anything in the NNT verse.

Interns of travel speed, sure. But, it isn't applicable to combat in the least, since Ichibei had a distance of many, many kilometres and thus hundreds to thousands of times more time to react to his approaching location than he would in an actual fight. Just as an example of what I mean in case it isn't clear, if a Supercar moving at 300 kilometres per hour were to be driving at me from a distance of 500 meters, I could react to and move out of the way before it hit me. But, if(somehow) the car were to start 1 or 2 meters away from me and was still moving at 300 kilometres per hour(impossible, of course, but this is just an example), I'd be unable to react before it struck me. The same principle applies to Ichibei's feat.

In other words, no proof exists Ichibei can move that fast in a fight.

And that was ichibei literally playing around. He didn't get serious until yhawch tagged him with arrows. And given that shinigamis use the same speed technique for both travel and combat (shunpo) the burden is on you to prove that ichibei somehow got slower in combat. Good luck.

Already explained why equating that feat to his combat speed is fallacious. Also, just because they use the same method of movement for travel and combat speed, doesn't mean we can equate them. The likes of Galan also uses the exact same means for travel and combat speed, but I still wouldn't equate him jumping multiple miles in the timeframe a lightning+ speed spell could proc to his combat speed, because of the reasons I mentioned above.

Mimihagi covered a distance that took mhs characters hours to travel in mere seconds and ywach reacted to him from point blank range.

Mimihagi had far greater time and distance to accelerate when he travelled to the Soul King's Palace as opposed to when he attacked Yhwach, so equating his travel speed to his combat speed is, once again, fallacious.

And since we are arbitrarily throwing numbers around, base ichigo also casually blitzed the female sternritters who were all casually triple digit mach.

There's literally no proof any of those 3 Sternritters were triple digit Mach. Meanwhile, I have proof that even BoS Meliodas, let alone the exponentially faster unsealed Meliodas that Estarossa moved at least 5 times faster than was casually triple digit Mach(this next part is copied from one of my latest CaV's, so it's a bit out of context):

The answer is, at very least Mach 300, since even his sealed version(was blitzed by someone his unsealed version blitzed 12 times over) could react to cloud to ground lightning from Gilthunder at point-blank range multiple times without any issues(said lightning also has feats proving its speed is actually mach 286):

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Seven Deadly Sins Chapter 78

So, even if we massively lowball and assume Meliodas' speed barely increased at all from his sealed version, despite him casually blitzing Galan 12 times over, someone who could easily outspeed and blitz BoS Meliodas and did so multiple times, he's Mach 300.

And he would absolutely get spanked by either ywach or ichibei.

If you wanna play it this way, I can do that too. The Meliodas that reacted to cloud to ground lightning(with feats putting it at that speed, not like Candice's, non-natural lightning) was blitzed casually by Galan despite being amped, who was then cut by Meliodas 12 times in an instant before he could even move, who was easily blitzed by a far slower Mael/Estarossa.

It's funny though that you can arbitrarily determine a xter to be "5 times faster than his opponent" with zero proof yet have a problem with scaling that complies with already set rules and lore. Just saying.

Ah, sorry, I guess this is my fault. I do have concrete proof Estarossa must have been moving at the very least 5 times faster than Meliodas(huge lowball, but I'm feeling nice) to perform his feat of catching the latter sword, here it is:

Even back when he had only 1 Commandment and hadn't awakened his Archangel powers, when his power level was merely 60,000 as opposed to 200,000, he was capable of moving several meters and stopping unsealed Meliodas' hand before he could complete a simple sword swing:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7
Seven Deadly Sins Chapter 175

Now, to describe what happened here and the importance of the scans:

  • Scans 1 and 2: We get a clear look at everything around Meliodas, from the front and the side and Estarossa is nowhere to be seen, proving he is indeed at least 5+ meters away from Meliodas before the latter swings his sword.
  • Scans 3 and 4: Meliodas activates his Revenge Counter. As you can see in the 4th scan, Estarossa still isn't within 5 to 10 meters of Meliodas(lowball, but whatever) when the latter activates the attack, debunking the possibility that Esta moved closer while Mel was initiating the Revenge Counter.
  • Scans 5, 6 and 7: Meliodas starts swinging his sword, but before he can complete the swing, Estarossa has moved from his position at absolute bare minimum 5 meters away and caught the sword before unsealed Meliodas could move his sword from his side at absolute most 50 centimetres to a meter in front of him(see scans 3 and 7 for the distance the sword moved).

Considering the events, it's impossible to dispute that Estarossa had to be moving at the very least 5 times faster than Meliodas to achieve the feat of catching his sword, which would put him at Mach 1,500+ in a faaaar weaker and slower form than the one being used here.

As for ichibei's other feats, does casually crushing reishi constructs from ywach (one of which one shot Yamamoto) count?

Not really, since pre-Soul King Yhwach's reisig constructs, whether offensive or defensive, had no impressive feats that I haven't already debunked.

Or how about casually smashing ywach's blut vein (gremmy alone was easily island lvl and ywach was his superior)

Neither Gremmy's not Yhwach's Blut Vene have any island level feats, this is just speculation back by nothing at all.

4) ichigo's GT casually vaporised the top of the soul king palace.

Which has no impressive showings of size, at all. Next.

That's more impressive on paper than 4 commandment mael who couldn't bust the goddess sky temple in one attack. And ywach no sold said GT BTW.

Mael's attack literally dwarfed the island by orders of magnitude(which is a good hundred meters in size) and its clear he could have destroyed it at will, unless you think he's weaker than BoS Diane, who was already casually mountain level:

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Seven Deadly Sins Chapter 178

5) "the almighty" says hi.

This Yhwach doesn't have Almighty activated from the start, assuming it's the one that fought Ichibei like the OP says it is.

The assumption here is that they can tag ichibei before they get inked which simply won't happen as he has the vastly superior speed feat and the power to literally one shot them.

This is pure highballing with absolutely no feats or scans to back it up.

Heck mael is doubly screwed as he utilises the power of darkness. Guess who has dominion over All things black.

Guess who can seal powers with a single attack.

Lol. Scythe of silence isn't doing Jack. Ichibei got his powers stolen (which is even worse) and still retained dominion over them.

Getting them stolen =/= getting them sealed, equating the 2 is meaningless. One they're sealed, they're sealed. He can't use his own powers to undo a seal that seals them away, since they're sealed away. What's so hard to understand about this, exactly?

And ywach was literally reduced to the stature of an ant and the almighty simply lolnoped the situation.

So, the Almighty is going to lolnope the Seal of Silence, despite being sealed away by said seal? That makes no sense whatsoever. Feats for the Almighty breaking out of a literal seal that seals it away and then destroying said seal?

As for illusions, it's not even close to KS.

It doesn't have to be, seeing as to how neither of the Bleach Team have feats of resisting any kinds of illusions, meaning they get oneshot.

Not to mention they get murdered long before that.

In summary; either ywach or ichibei could solo.

Based on what's been provided thus far, Mael's the one who's going to be doing the soloing here.

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#33 Edited by kroczilla (1647 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: 1) we do have an idea how he compares to the high tiers as he is considered a top tier I. e. above the high tiers. he was referred to as the God of shinigamis. he is the undisputed leader of a group that per shunsui 's own admission >>> the entire gotei 13 combined (which is filled with high tiers). he dominated pre almighty ywach who would babyshake any single high tier in the series. to make the statement you just made is to ignore literally everything we know about the series.

2) where he cut Yamamoto in half. don't know what split durability has to do with this considering the potency of Yamamoto 's flames which >>> piercing damage. aizen could stop a captain lvl bankai sword with a single finger yet was afraid of even getting one hit from shikai Yamamoto's flames. hence the piercing durability argument fails in this situation. nice try though.

3) this analogy is silly on so many levels (no offence). first off, using cars or any other vehicle when talking about speedsters. secondly, stating the distance ichibei had to cover is only relevant if he had needed more than a few seconds (at best) to reach ywach. however ichibei was on ywach nigh instantly. just about as fast as he would in combat circumstances. again all while playing around.

galan 's feat against Merlin still wouldnt be as impressive as what ichibei did. ichibei skipped a thousand RI (about 2400 miles) like it was a game of hopscotch. unless you can prove galan came anywhere near those numbers, you really don't have any legs to stand on.

as for mimihagi's feat. he arrived at the SK palace nigh instantly. according to urahara, the quake suddenly stopped. there is zero proof that mimihagi needed anytime to "accelerate" his speed. once again using vehicle like analogy in this context is a fail.

bruh, throwing around numbers and multipliers arbitrarily will never get taken seriously. so I'm just gonna ignore all the 5 times, 12 times stuff. especially since regardless of how you spin it, it would still be below ywach's feat of reacting to and crushing mimihagi with ease.

and on the subject of Candice, given that she was shown channeling her lightning directly from the clouds and her stated value for her lightning is equal to real life lightning then yeah, it's every bit as natural as real lightning. and this was base Candice. as for her team mates, they easily avoided a wide lightning blast from Candice from literally point blank range (they were all sitting on top of her). and base ichigo while holding back, blitzed them with ease.

4) pre SK ywach one-shot Yamamoto with a reishi construct. ichibei straight up crushed a pack of them to nothing with a clap.

as for gremmy, as he stated (a statement we have no reason to disbelieve), he was gonna tank his own meteor before kenpachi busted it. said meteor was at minimum, island lvl.

vaporising the top of the RG palace is impressive given that it's size is comparable to the RG cities.

https://www.mangareader.net/bleach/519/3

not to mention, ichigo vaped a sea with his reitsu. his GT is basically an even more concentrated/potent version of his reitsu.

And ywach was straight up ripping the entire palace in half with raw strength alone as a side effect of pulling on mimihagi.

https://www.mangareader.net/bleach/619/16

bruh just stop. Diane used lightning rod to literally transfer the full impact to mael's attack into the temple and it wasn't destroyed (despite having taken damage prior from the other battles).

5) the OP pic shows ywach with the almighty activated which would still also include the ywach that fought ichibei. therefore, it's almighty ywach in the match unless expressly stated otherwise.

ichibei's speed is already established. his hax is also well outside of mael's weight class. when mael can manipulate concepts across space time and dimensions (literally stealing darkness from the future), feel free to tag me.

*sigh* ichibei control over darkness means he can literally unname mael with the very darkness mael is using. and given that king was casually able to wreck said seal, I guess it really isn't all that.

again, all the stuff about the scythe of silence became irrelevant the moment king crapped all over said seal. not to mention, said seal hasn't been tried against a being who manipulates concepts as opposed to simple raw power.

feats for the scythe of silence sealing an ability that literally rewrites reality. I'll wait.

given that team NNT would be dead literally as soon as the match began, I really wouldn't worry about any illusions from them.

yep, ichibei baby shakes.

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#34 Posted by Azureus (2211 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureus said:

There is not a single reason why the sins would win. All hype because some character's numbers are getting big.

Because they have legit quantifiable feats, unlike some characters......

You better post them then because by feats and scaling there no reason Yhwach can't oneshot.

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#35 Posted by Yox (334 posts) - - Show Bio

Either on the bleach team can solo tbh

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#36 Posted by SkySanji (2458 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 mid diff at best way too much hax.

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#37 Edited by WorldofRuin6 (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureus said:
@worldofruin6 said:
@azureus said:

There is not a single reason why the sins would win. All hype because some character's numbers are getting big.

Because they have legit quantifiable feats, unlike some characters......

You better post them then because by feats and scaling there no reason Yhwach can't oneshot.

Yhwach has no DC feats that can even hurt King or Mael. Unreliable reiatsu scaling does not count as feats either. By feats, King or Mael oneshot Ichibei or Yhwach

No Caption Provided

Show Yhwach or Ichibei tanking an attack of this magnitude, or it's lightball of love GG.

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#38 Posted by Azureus (2211 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6:

Shikai Kenpachi's meteor feat already overshadows that. Scale that to Ichigo, and know that Yhwach was catching those blows barehanded. Not sure what's that supposed to do against island level characters.

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#39 Posted by KingogKings777 (1538 posts) - - Show Bio

Yhwach mustache solos the verse

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#40 Posted by KingGuinness (1642 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin:

Sorry @kroczilla, but I'm going to interrupt here if you don't mind.

Wait, which feat were you referring to? The one where Yhwach cuts Yamamoto in half, or the one where he blasts a near dead Yama? If it's the first one, that's not impressive wither way, since Yamamoto has no good piercing durability feats to make it so. If it's the second one, Yamamoto was clearly on the verge of death(if he wasn't already dead by then), seeing as to how he had just been cut in half and then got his hand cut off as well:

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Bleach Chapter 511: Die Standing

So, equating either of those feats with Yamamoto tanking his own flames is fallacious.

Being fatigued or injured doesn't make vaping Yama's body any less impressive. Durability doesn't change or shift depending on how tired you are, it doesn't work like that.

Interns of travel speed, sure. But, it isn't applicable to combat in the least, since Ichibei had a distance of many, many kilometres and thus hundreds to thousands of times more time to react to his approaching location than he would in an actual fight. Just as an example of what I mean in case it isn't clear, if a Supercar moving at 300 kilometres per hour were to be driving at me from a distance of 500 meters, I could react to and move out of the way before it hit me. But, if(somehow) the car were to start 1 or 2 meters away from me and was still moving at 300 kilometres per hour(impossible, of course, but this is just an example), I'd be unable to react before it struck me. The same principle applies to Ichibei's feat.

In other words, no proof exists Ichibei can move that fast in a fight.

The whole travel speed =/= combat speed argument doesn't work in Bleach. Bleach characters use Shunpo for both combat and travel speed so feats performed for either can be directly applied to the other, since that's literally all they use to move.

Your supercar reference doesn't make any sense. Ichibe outraced Yhwach literally a panel after he had already sent him flying 1,000 Ri away, that wouldn't be possible if Ichibe couldn't perceive Yhwach's speed.

Already explained why equating that feat to his combat speed is fallacious. Also, just because they use the same method of movement for travel and combat speed, doesn't mean we can equate them. The likes of Galan also uses the exact same means for travel and combat speed, but I still wouldn't equate him jumping multiple miles in the timeframe a lightning+ speed spell could proc to his combat speed, because of the reasons I mentioned above.

Even if you did do that it'd still pale in comparison to Ichibe's 1,000 Ri feat.

Mimihagi had far greater time and distance to accelerate when he travelled to the Soul King's Palace as opposed to when he attacked Yhwach, so equating his travel speed to his combat speed is, once again, fallacious.

Why does acceleration matter here? In anime/manga, characters who can move at lightning+ speeds don't need to accelerate before they can reach those speeds, they just do it. Galan didn't need to accelerate before he jumped several miles away, it just happened.

Even if we were to use your logic and apply it to Mimihagi's feat, Mimihagi reached the Royal Palace so fast that Yhwach and co didn't even know what happened. In that timeframe, barely any acceleration would occur, so the feat still applies regardless.

There's literally no proof any of those 3 Sternritters were triple digit Mach. Meanwhile, I have proof that even BoS Meliodas, let alone the exponentially faster unsealed Meliodas that Estarossa moved at least 5 times faster than was casually triple digit Mach(this next part is copied from one of my latest CaV's, so it's a bit out of context):

The answer is, at very least Mach 300, since even his sealed version(was blitzed by someone his unsealed version blitzed 12 times over) could react to cloud to ground lightning from Gilthunder at point-blank range multiple times without any issues(said lightning also has feats proving its speed is actually mach 286):

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Seven Deadly Sins Chapter 78

So, even if we massively lowball and assume Meliodas' speed barely increased at all from his sealed version, despite him casually blitzing Galan 12 times over, someone who could easily outspeed and blitz BoS Meliodas and did so multiple times, he's Mach 300.

Candice, one of the Sternritters Ichigo blitzed, had the ability to create cloud to ground lightning exactly like Gilthunder could. The result? Well:

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Before you say that Candice's lightning isn't natural, it's shown in the next chapter that the big lightning bolt Candice summons is from the clouds:

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I'd also like to point out that BoS Meliodas being a lightning timer is a high end and not supported by any other showings of speed. BoS Meliodas being a lightning timer is about as concrete as Skypiea Luffy being a lightning timer.

If you wanna play it this way, I can do that too. The Meliodas that reacted to cloud to ground lightning(with feats putting it at that speed, not like Candice's, non-natural lightning) was blitzed casually by Galan despite being amped, who was then cut by Meliodas 12 times in an instant before he could even move, who was easily blitzed by a far slower Mael/Estarossa.

You can apply that same exact form of scaling to Bleach as well. I can say that the Bankai Ichigo who had a lightning+ level feat was outpaced and blitzed by Grimmjow, who in turn was outpaced/blitzed by an incomplete Hollow Mask Ichigo. After Ichigo defeated Ulquiorra and gained a new marking on his Hollow Mask, he got blitzed by base Aizen, who in turn was scared of fighting Yamamoto, the same Yamamoto that got blitzed by Yhwach.

If we were to completely disregard scaling for both series, Bleach has drastically superior high-end speed feats.

Ah, sorry, I guess this is my fault. I do have concrete proof Estarossa must have been moving at the very least 5 times faster than Meliodas(huge lowball, but I'm feeling nice) to perform his feat of catching the latter sword, here it is:

Even back when he had only 1 Commandment and hadn't awakened his Archangel powers, when his power level was merely 60,000 as opposed to 200,000, he was capable of moving several meters and stopping unsealed Meliodas' hand before he could complete a simple sword swing:

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Seven Deadly Sins Chapter 175

Now, to describe what happened here and the importance of the scans:

  • Scans 1 and 2: We get a clear look at everything around Meliodas, from the front and the side and Estarossa is nowhere to be seen, proving he is indeed at least 5+ meters away from Meliodas before the latter swings his sword.
  • Scans 3 and 4: Meliodas activates his Revenge Counter. As you can see in the 4th scan, Estarossa still isn't within 5 to 10 meters of Meliodas(lowball, but whatever) when the latter activates the attack, debunking the possibility that Esta moved closer while Mel was initiating the Revenge Counter.
  • Scans 5, 6 and 7: Meliodas starts swinging his sword, but before he can complete the swing, Estarossa has moved from his position at absolute bare minimum 5 meters away and caught the sword before unsealed Meliodas could move his sword from his side at absolute most 50 centimetres to a meter in front of him(see scans 3 and 7 for the distance the sword moved).

Considering the events, it's impossible to dispute that Estarossa had to be moving at the very least 5 times faster than Meliodas to achieve the feat of catching his sword, which would put him at Mach 1,500+ in a faaaar weaker and slower form than the one being used here.

This, my friend, is what we call calc stacking. It's flawed and leads to inflated numbers (I mean, this type of logic is why Hope_w came to the conclusion that KCM1 Naruto is Mach 8,000+, which you and i both agree is definitely not true).

So, the Almighty is going to lolnope the Seal of Silence, despite being sealed away by said seal? That makes no sense whatsoever. Feats for the Almighty breaking out of a literal seal that seals it away and then destroying said seal?

I'm not sure if this fits the description perfectly, but The Almighty nullified Ichibe's Futen Taisatsuryo, which is designed to take away all the darkness from the victim and crush it until it's dust:

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It also nullified Ichibe's technique of reducing him to as powerful as a black ant, so i don't see why it wouldn't work against the Seal of Silence.

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#41 Posted by Bleachfans (110 posts) - - Show Bio

Current king solo stomp bleach duo

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#42 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3146 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingguinness: The shunpo travel speed = combat speed is a garbage (fallacious) argument. This argument could be applied to literally any character who uses their muscles for travel speed as well as combat speed.

Travel speed has never been equal to combat speed on CV and I fail to see why Bleach would suddenly be the one exception to that rule.

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#43 Posted by kroczilla (1647 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles: the fact that other xters use their muscle mass for travel and combat does not equate to using literally the same speed technique. E. G. Superman mostly travels with flight via pseudo-gravity manipulation hence his travel speed can't translate to his combat speed.

Not to mention ichibei performed his feat mid combat and in such a shortened time frame.

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#44 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7295 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingguinness:

Sorry @kroczilla, but I'm going to interrupt here if you don't mind.

Oh, great! I'd much rather debate you than him anyway, your formatting is much easier to deal with.

Being fatigued or injured doesn't make vaping Yama's body any less impressive. Durability doesn't change or shift depending on how tired you are, it doesn't work like that.

If we're talking real life, you'd be right. However when a characters durability is dependent on their energy level, like in say, DBZ, their durability would naturally drop drastically when they're on deaths door and their energy is basically depleted. The same should go for Yamamoto, since it's been heavily implied that ones durability depends on your reiatsu more so than your body(for the most part), which is why Ichigo was unable to cut Kenpachi, since this reiastu and by proxy his durability were much higher than Ichigo's attack power. Thus, vaping Yama when he's got barely enough energy left to even move a muscle and is about to die should be definitively less impressive than vaping hm when he's fully braced himself.

Besides, even if we were to say there's no difference, that'd put Yhwach's blasts at multi-town+ level, give or take a bit. Not all too impressive regardless.

The whole travel speed =/= combat speed argument doesn't work in Bleach. Bleach characters use Shunpo for both combat and travel speed so feats performed for either can be directly applied to the other, since that's literally all they use to move.

This logic is quite frankly preposterous and I think you realise this. Superman also uses his muscles and flight in combat to move, just like he would when he's flying, yet we can't equate his combat speed to his flying speed. Galan also uses his muscles and regular steps/slight jumps too travel, so I guess his combat speed is now also equal to his travel speed? Don't be ridiculous. I've already explained why combat and travel speed can't be equated. For travel speed, the moving character has faaaar greater time and distance to react to his approaching destination.

To put this into context for MHS characters like Ichibei or Yhwach, if they were moving at Mach 100(arbitrary number), they'd have about 0.03 seconds to react to their approaching destination if they were to travel 1000 meters in one direction. However, in combat, where they'd only have to move about 1 meter at best, they'd only have 0.00003 seconds to react. In other words, you can't prove that they can use that speed in combat and properly react to it.

Your supercar reference doesn't make any sense. Ichibe outraced Yhwach literally a panel after he had already sent him flying 1,000 Ri away, that wouldn't be possible if Ichibe couldn't perceive Yhwach's speed.

The example was a bit hard to follow, I tried to explain it better in the section above. I hope I managed it this time.

Even if you did do that it'd still pale in comparison to Ichibe's 1,000 Ri feat.

Considering the context, not really. Ichibei's feat can either be interpreted to mean he launched Yhwach 2400 miles or 300, depending on the translation and interpretation(official one has it at 300, FYI). On the other hand, while Galan only jumped around 3 to 10 miles, he did so before a spell that blitzed lightning timers could proc, meaning the timeframe was faaaar smaller.

Why does acceleration matter here? In anime/manga, characters who can move at lightning+ speeds don't need to accelerate before they can reach those speeds, they just do it. Galan didn't need to accelerate before he jumped several miles away, it just happened.

Even if we were to use your logic and apply it to Mimihagi's feat, Mimihagi reached the Royal Palace so fast that Yhwach and co didn't even know what happened. In that timeframe, barely any acceleration would occur, so the feat still applies regardless.

Once again, you fail to grasp the implications of speed, distance and acceleration(no offence). For all we know, Mimihagi could have been moving at, arbitrarily, Mach 10 at the start of his journey to the Soul Kings Palace, then sped up to Mach 1000+ in the following deciseconds(tenths of a second), time he wouldn't have when launching himself at Yhwach. Due to circumstances like these easily being within the realm of possibility, you cannot equate his attack on Yhwach to the speed/time of his journey to the Palace.

Candice, one of the Sternritters Ichigo blitzed, had the ability to create cloud to ground lightning exactly like Gilthunder could. The result? Well:

That's a BoS Mel level speed feat.

Before you say that Candice's lightning isn't natural, it's shown in the next chapter that the big lightning bolt Candice summons is from the clouds:

Technically, it just being from the clouds wouldn't prove anything, since it's still artificial. It'd need actual speed feats to be at that level, which Gilthunders has. But, I'll just let it go and say this feat is legitimate, 'cause it's still not impressive.

I'd also like to point out that BoS Meliodas being a lightning timer is a high end and not supported by any other showings of speed. BoS Meliodas being a lightning timer is about as concrete as Skypiea Luffy being a lightning timer.

Other BoS Sins like King could easily react to double to low triple digit mach, it's not too farfetched. Galan's speed feat also backs it up and, more importantly, it's not contradicted by anything. There's no reason to disregard it, unlike Luffy's feat, who, IIRC, doesn't even get any other feats above Mach 10 before the time skip and fails to react to 200 kilometres per hour post-timeskip(though that last one should be PIS).

You can apply that same exact form of scaling to Bleach as well.

Of course you can. I only used this logic as retaliation when kroczilla brought up RG Shikai Ichigo dodging lightning and Yhwach being able to blitz him as something that proves these 2 Bleach characters would be comparable or faster than Mael and King.

I can say that the Bankai Ichigo who had a lightning+ level feat was outpaced and blitzed by Grimmjow, who in turn was outpaced/blitzed by an incomplete Hollow Mask Ichigo. After Ichigo defeated Ulquiorra and gained a new marking on his Hollow Mask, he got blitzed by base Aizen, who in turn was scared of fighting Yamamoto, the same Yamamoto that got blitzed by Yhwach.

Bankai Ichigo has no speed feats putting him at anywhere near Mach 286, unless you highball the ever living shit out of the petal feat(which, FYI, is pretty unquantifiable anyway), so this whole thing falls apart right there.

If we were to completely disregard scaling for both series, Bleach has drastically superior high-end speed feats.

If you take them out of context, sure.

This, my friend, is what we call calc stacking. It's flawed and leads to inflated numbers (I mean, this type of logic is why Hope_w came to the conclusion that KCM1 Naruto is Mach 8,000+, which you and i both agree is definitely not true).

Yeah, no. Explain why exactly this is flawed. Just saying "muh calc stacking" and referring to Hope's faulty and out-of-context use of this kind of logic(his claim would insinuate that KCM Naruto is almost 30 times faster than the Raikage despite being unable to outspeed him at all just a few pages earlier) doesn't prove it's fallacious as a whole, that'd be the hasty generalisation fallacy.

I'm not sure if this fits the description perfectly, but The Almighty nullified Ichibe's Futen Taisatsuryo, which is designed to take away all the darkness from the victim and crush it until it's dust:

It also nullified Ichibe's technique of reducing him to as powerful as a black ant, so i don't see why it wouldn't work against the Seal of Silence.

Neither of these examples really apply, since neither of Ichibei's attacks actually seal away the Almighty or Yhwach's powers as a whole, they just either reduce them or try to steal them away, which isn't the same thing. The Almighty can't negate a seal when it itself is sealed away by said seal, that makes no sense.

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#45 Posted by FaradaySloth (5120 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingguinness: The shunpo travel speed = combat speed is a garbage (fallacious) argument. This argument could be applied to literally any character who uses their muscles for travel speed as well as combat speed.

Travel speed has never been equal to combat speed on CV and I fail to see why Bleach would suddenly be the one exception to that rule.

Most Bleach fights have a lot of Shunpo, Sonido, Hirenyaku in them. A lot of the time they fight when they are indeed at that speed, so I could see why it could constitute to combat speed for some.

Plus Ichibe summoning massive hands going at speeds where you're going to be pushed back by 1000 Ri seemingly instantaneously should out him up to close to his travel speed.

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#46 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureus said:

@worldofruin6:

Shikai Kenpachi's meteor feat already overshadows that. Scale that to Ichigo, and know that Yhwach was catching those blows barehanded. Not sure what's that supposed to do against island level characters.

You are powerscaling characters that never fought in the forms that are being debated, so the whole "this guy is stronger so he now scales to every single DC, speed, strength, etc feat in the entire series" doesnt work here.

See, the way powerscaling works is character A can mountain bust with an energy blast. Said character blasts character b, but character b is unharmed.

Along comes character c who shoots an energy blast at character b and kills him.

That means character c's energy DC is higher than character A and his DC must be at least mountain+.

Bleach powerscaling is legit trash and doesnt work.

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#47 Posted by kroczilla (1647 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: ahhh.... I've got some free time and I'm bored. Might as well jump in.

1) already addressed this. The potency of Yamamoto 's flames are greater that regular piercing damage (read my previous post). And kurakura town is the size of a city. Towns don't have dozens of city block worth of high rise structures among several other structures.

2) again using superman is a flawed analogy. Just gonna copy and paste what I said earlier.

"the fact that other xters use their muscle mass for travel and combat does not equate to using literally the same speed technique. E. G. Superman mostly travels with flight via pseudo-gravity manipulation hence his travel speed can't translate to his combat speed."

Also given that ywach could casually react to ichibei coming at him from a distance (basically same scenario as the 1000 RI feat), I think that effectively ends the part of the debate.

FYI, the official measurement for 1 RI is 2.44 miles I. E. The official cuz translation got it wrong in this instant which wouldn't be the first time.

It could be 300 miles and would still be above galan's feat.

Your entire post on mimihagi sounds like head canon. There's is no proof that mimihagi (or any other bleach xter for that matter) need any time to "accelerate" their speed. To apply that logic without proof especially to a high tier like mimihagi, is flawed.

3)

Bankai ichigo Iirc was stated to be as fast as lightning in the data book during SS arc. He also reacted to gin's bankai which is mach 500 (the data book confirmed that gun didn't lie to ichigo. I'll try to find the link). And that ichigo is fodder to post full bring ichigo, talk less of any post time skip high tier.

5) king was able to overpower the seal of silence. Either ywach or ichibei could shut all over it.

And while ywach was sealed, it is currently unknown the circumstances behind it's occurrence. For all we know, a variant of the silver arrow (his weakness) might have been used. Either way, nothing the seal of silence has shown puts it as capable of sealing the ability of either ywach or ichibei.

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#48 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7295 posts) - - Show Bio

@kroczilla: That's cool, but I'm not responding to it. I really don't feel like debating 2 people at the same time on the exact same topics, so I'll just respond to Guinness, since his formatting is better and easier to respond to.

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#49 Posted by Azureus (2211 posts) - - Show Bio

@worldofruin6:

You are powerscaling characters that never fought in the forms that are being debated...

What do you mean?

so the whole "this guy is stronger so he now scales to every single DC, speed, strength, etc feat in the entire series" doesnt work here.

Except that scaling in Bleach is utterly dependent on Reiatsu levels, so the guy with the greatest amount of pressure is the strongest in every stat hands down, as stated by Aizen and earlier on in the series, especially when Ichigo and Kenpachi fought the first time. I don't see your point.

See, the way powerscaling works is character A can mountain bust with an energy blast. Said character blasts character b, but character b is unharmed.

Along comes character c who shoots an energy blast at character b and kills him.

That means character c's energy DC is higher than character A and his DC must be at least mountain+.

So where is the difference with mine? Ichigo > Kenpachi that's an established fact. Kenpachi is island level. Yhwach tanked an enhanced strike from Ichigo. Would it not stand to reason that Yhwach would scale that way given the nature of the series.

Bleach powerscaling is legit trash and doesnt work.

That's hardly true.

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#50 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (2817 posts) - - Show Bio

Either on the bleach team bodies.