Cronus (Saint Seiya) vs Xeno Goku

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TheFightersDen

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Cronus (Saint Seiya)

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Xeno Goku

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Rules

  • Morals Off
  • No Prep and No Prior Knowledge
  • The Location will be somewhere in the Universe
  • They start 5 km away from each other
  • Both characters have their standard equipment
  • They have composite feats. Composite Goku is being used in this battle.
  • Win by KO, Death and BFR

This is the final showdown between Dragon Ball Fans and Saint Seiya Fans. *Grabs popcorn*.

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UzuChiha

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Xeno Goku wins.

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Jman88933

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#3  Edited By Jman88933

How about no? None of us (ironically including DB Fanboys) ever played the, Japan only, Dragon Ball Heroes. So there's really nothing to argue against besides a couple speculated feats from Xeno Goku with missing context.

And by the way, if there's going to be a final showdown, it'll be with Seiya and main timeline Goku.

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JOVIOLMA

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#4 JOVIOLMA  Online

Pragma Spathe GG

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Gaoron

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Bossmountain

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Xeno Goku stomps

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CaoCao

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#7 CaoCao  Online

lol....

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Thedarkpaladin

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Goong by what's been posted for Goku so far in these threads, Cronus spites.

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Bossmountain

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#9  Edited By Bossmountain

@thedarkpaladin: Sorry,what exactly have posted so far for Cronus that proves he would wins?

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Thedarkpaladin

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@thedarkpaladin: Sorry,what exactly have posted so far for Cronus that proves he would wins?

Aside from the fact that he is canonically above all of the Gold Knights and can destroy all of the other unsealed Titans with a thought is already more than enough considering nothing substantial has been posted for Xeno Goku. Then there's the fact that he was destroying the entire Saint Seiya multiverse during his fight with Aiolia in Episode G.

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Bossmountain

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@bossmountain said:

@thedarkpaladin: Sorry,what exactly have posted so far for Cronus that proves he would wins?

Aside from the fact that he is canonically above all of the Gold Knights and can destroy all of the other unsealed Titans with a thought is already more than enough considering nothing substantial has been posted for Xeno Goku. Then there's the fact that he was destroying the entire Saint Seiya multiverse during his fight with Aiolia in Episode G.

Because Xeno Goku never defeated a multiverse entity before *cough*Demigra *cough*

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Thedarkpaladin

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@thedarkpaladin said:
@bossmountain said:

@thedarkpaladin: Sorry,what exactly have posted so far for Cronus that proves he would wins?

Aside from the fact that he is canonically above all of the Gold Knights and can destroy all of the other unsealed Titans with a thought is already more than enough considering nothing substantial has been posted for Xeno Goku. Then there's the fact that he was destroying the entire Saint Seiya multiverse during his fight with Aiolia in Episode G.

Because Xeno Goku never defeated a multiverse entity before *cough*Demigra *cough*

Show how Demigra was multiversal. Could he do it through power alone or did he need to absorb Toki Toki and use some form of time manipulation.

Also, why couldn't Demigra survive the destruction of the multiverse and needed to hide within the crack of time?

Cronus is faster and can ignore conventional durability via Pragma Spathe and Dunamis Pteryx.

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Bossmountain

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@thedarkpaladin:

Show how Demigra was multiversal." You mean besides the fact that he going dest5the multiverse and recreate it in his image??

"Could he do it through power alone or did he need to absorb Toki Toki and use some form of time manipulation." Thats like Arguing That thanos with The Infinity Gauntlet is not multiversal because he's relying on the power of The gauntlets and the stone and not his own strength.

"Also, why couldn't Demigra survive the destruction of the multiverse and needed to hide within the crack of time?" That was base Demigra and super demon god demigra, makyouka demigra was able to do this feat simply by existing and he didn't need the crack of time

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

You mean besides the fact that he going dest5the multiverse and recreate it in his image??

Something he could only accomplish with Toki Toiki's time manipulation powers, you mean. It's not like he could one-shot the multiverse with a Ki blast. It's something that took an extraordinary amount of prep.

Thats like Arguing That thanos with The Infinity Gauntlet is not multiversal because he's relying on the power of The gauntlets and the stone and not his own strength.

That's an inaccurate analogy. Thanos with the Gauntlet is multiversal, but only with the powers of the Gauntlet and Stones. You need to prove one needs multiversal power in order to damage or defeat Demigra when he's only multiveral through Toki Toki's time manipulation.

That was base Demigra and super demon god demigra, makyouka demigra was able to do this feat simply by existing and he didn't need the crack of time

Show Demigra doing this and Xeno Goku defeating him. Also, I fail to see what counters Goku has to Cronus's Pragma Spathe - a spacial manipulation technique which enables him to dish out attacks instantly. These attacks are able to destroy his target's energy. Dunamis Pteryx will steal Goku's time, causing his particles to revert back to their point of origin before disappearing entirely.

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JOVIOLMA

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#15 JOVIOLMA  Online

@thedarkpaladin: I'm curious, I remember Cronus explaining something about his DT and saying that can steal people's time, but what this mean exactly ? Is him erasing people from Time Itself ?

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Thedarkpaladin

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@joviolma: In essence, he reverts the subatomic particles of whatever his Scythe touches back to their point of origin, before finally destroying their existence.

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VNGRYVFRICAN

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Cronus roflstomps. Xeno goku has hax but not enough for cronus

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Bossmountain

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@thedarkpaladin: "That's an inaccurate analogy." How so, all I did was swap the macguffins?

"It's not like he could one-shot the multiverse with a Ki blast. It's something that took an extraordinary amount of prep."

Loading Video...

Nope ,there was no real prep needed. All he has to do was eat the chicken(toki toki) and boom he is powerful enough to destroy all timelines in existence. With what appears to be a giant Ki blast (3:24)funny

Loading Video...

But then again eating Toki Toki and his eggs have always been portrayed as being a giant power boost and not a giant hax boost. Like when Mira ate Toki toki egg along with Towa he achieved a form similar to Super Saiyan 4.

"Show Demigra doing this"

https://m.imgur.com/a/4WibN

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CaoCao

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#19  Edited By CaoCao  Online

Cronus curbstomps.

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EcoBlitz

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#20 EcoBlitz  Online

Cronus stomps with ease

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

Nope ,there was no real prep needed. All he has to do was eat the chicken(toki toki) and boom he is powerful enough to destroy all timelines in existence. With what appears to be a giant Ki blast (3:24)funny

Funny indeed that you post a video of him threatening to destroy the Time-Vault, which causes a chain reaction that destroys everything else, and pass that off as multiversal DC.

But then again eating Toki Toki and his eggs have always been portrayed as being a giant power boost and not a giant hax boost. Like when Mira ate Toki toki egg along with Towa he achieved a form similar to Super Saiyan 4.

Okay, let's assume for the sake of argument that it works as a power boost and Demigra would have destroyed the multiverse via sheer power rather than time manipulation.

https://m.imgur.com/a/4WibN

I don't see him saying he could do it by simply existing. He clearly states that he'll deal with the world's history after he's done with Time-Patrollers. I've read a little bit more on Xeno Goku, btw. Why exactly did he have trouble with Dark Dabura and Dark Kid Boo? Are they supposed to be multiversal beings as well?

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Cutting_Edge

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Bossmountain

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@thedarkpaladin: yes because being powerful enough to destroy a dimension like the time Vault that contains every time line in existence is totally not a multiversal feat

it's clearly only a building level feats just like destroying the Dark Tower in the Stephen King novel .

"Okay, let's assume for the sake of argument that it works as a power boost and Demigra would have destroyed the multiverse via sheer power rather than time manipulation." well yeah, then again there's nothing to suggest that any of the destruction caused was due to time manipulation. after all bardock and Mira were destroyed multiple time lines during their fight just buy punching each other and the only explanation was that there was just amped up on the energies of the strongest fighters in the Multiverse not that they were somehow manipulating Reality by some unseen hack.

"Why exactly did he have trouble with Dark Dabura and Dark Kid Boo?"

chances are they were massively amped by Dark energy like SSJ4 Broly, Time Breaker Bardock and Mira. These dudes have been shown to being powerful enough to wreak havoc across the Multiverse and Destroy multiple timelines incredibly casually.

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TheDeathstar

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Xeno Goku one shots.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

yes because being powerful enough to destroy a dimension like the time Vault that contains every time line in existence is totally not a multiversal feat

Yes, destroying this room is certainly a definitive multiversal feat:

No Caption Provided

Why exactly would he go through the trouble of destroying the Time Vault if his DC is already enough to destroy the entire multiverse? It doesn't add up.

it's clearly only a building level feats just like destroying the Dark Tower in the Stephen King novel .

Clearly.

well yeah, then again there's nothing to suggest that any of the destruction caused was due to time manipulation. after all bardock and Mira were destroyed multiple time lines during their fight just buy punching each other and the only explanation was that there was just amped up on the energies of the strongest fighters in the Multiverse not that they were somehow manipulating Reality by some unseen hack.

And there's nothing at all to suggest it was through sheer DC either, nor is there any substantial proof to base a claim of Goku having multiversal 5d powers simply for hurting or defeating him, while on the other hand, Goku has canonically had issues dealing with characters like Dark Dabra or Dark Boo - neither of which were collapsing the multiverse or even threatening it.

chances are they were massively amped by Dark energy like SSJ4 Broly, Time Breaker Bardock and Mira. These dudes have been shown to being powerful enough to wreak havoc across the Multiverse and Destroy multiple timelines incredibly casually.

Future Trunks managed to intercept an attack from Kid Boo, so your assumption seem extremely unlikely and ill-founded, much like these arguments for Goku. All and all, I see nothing stopping Cronus from simply blitzing Goku and stealing his time - reducing him to a stream of subatomic particles in the process.

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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Cronus flat out stomps.

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Bossmountain

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@thedarkpaladin: clearly you have no idea what the Dark Tower is but for the record destroying it would easily be a hyperversal feat. But I digress. Yes the time vault is a room (you're only showing part of it) that contains every time line in existence Therefore destroy is a multiverse feat.

"Why exactly would he go through the trouble of destroying the Time Vault if his DC is already enough to destroy the entire multiverse?" maybe it's just easier to the destroy them all when they're in one convenient location. But then again this is Base Demigra. makyouka demigra Didn't need the time Vault or the Crack of time to do this.

"And there's nothing at all to suggest it was through sheer DC either, nor is there any substantial proof to base a claim of Goku having multiversal 5d powers simply for hurting or defeating him,"

How about being able to Tank makyouka demigra's attacks where he literally Shatters timelines and throws them at his opponents.

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Durzo_Bat

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This is funny Xeno Goku utterly curbs. Seiya fanboys need to stop their baseless wank.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

clearly you have no idea what the Dark Tower is but for the record destroying it would easily be a hyperversal feat.

No, I just failed to see the relevance of whatever point you were attempting to make. I understand a usual tactic is to bring up stories or characters unrelated to the battle, so I just played along in hopes of keeping this discussion somewhat on track.

But I digress. Yes the time vault is a room (you're only showing part of it) that contains every time line in existence Therefore destroy is a multiverse feat.

Except no, it really isn't. The Time Vault can be destroyed due to an overabundance of scrolls filling it up, which would in turn cause the destruction of the universe. Destroying it causes a chain reaction and endangers the rest of the universe in the process. That's why Chronoa was so terrified of Beerus getting serious within the Time Nest in the first place. Destroying that would equal the destruction of the universe. Funny how that doesn't appear to be a concern elsewhere.

maybe it's just easier to the destroy them all when they're in one convenient location. But then again this is Base Demigra. makyouka demigra Didn't need the time Vault or the Crack of time to do this.

Supreme Kai and Chronoa erected a barrier protecting it from intruders after the Demigra incident. Multiversal barrier confirmed? I mean, what would be the point if these villains were already capable of wiping out the world's history through their own "multiversal DC"? What you're arguing doesn't add up with established events in the story, and I've seen you post nothing showing how Makyouka Demigra would have destroyed history. Just VS. Battles links of him stating he would deal with the world's history.

How about being able to Tank makyouka demigra's attacks where he literally Shatters timelines and throws them at his opponents.

Are you going to show me a gameplay mechanic or something concrete explaining that Demigra actually shatters timelines and "throws them at his opponent". Even if it's the latter, why would this be enough to deal with Cronus when he was going to destroy all of existence within the Saint Seiya multiverse himself? And what has Xeno Goku done to warrant him being above Demigra in his final form? Did he "one-shot him" on his own like you previously stated or did he have help from other warriors. Details, man.

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Jman88933

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This is funny Xeno Goku utterly curbs. Seiya fanboys need to stop their baseless wank.

Goku fanboys need to start proving why their characters would win this battle. The only wank is coming from you.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@jman88933: It's just Superwarrior back on an alt again.

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MainJP

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Cronus one-shots.

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Jman88933

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MainJP

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@jman88933: Tell me about it. I haven't responded to him in months and he still attempts to insult me. He follows people around lmao.

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Bossmountain

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#35  Edited By Bossmountain

@thedarkpaladin: "The Time Vault can be destroyed due to an overabundance of scrolls filling it up, which would in turn cause the destruction of the universe. " 1.) Where was that ever was stated?

2.) Even if that were true You are aware the scrolls are actually timelines and not just freaking Scrolls,right?

"That's why Chronoa was so terrified of Beerus getting serious within the Time Nest in the first place. Destroying that would equal the destruction of the universe. Funny how that doesn't appear to be a concern elsewhere."

You mean aside from the time time breaker Bardock and Mira fought one another and were destroying timelines? Because she seems pretty concerned and they weren't even fighting in the time vault.

"Supreme Kai and Chronoa erected a barrier protecting it from intruders after the Demigra incident. Multiversal barrier confirmed?"

Considering it's been stated multiple times at her power holds together the Multiverse and that if she would die everything would disappear along with her I'm going to say yes multiversal barrier confirmed.

And for the record Supreme Kai of time and Corona are the same person I think you're confusing the Supreme Kai with elder Kai. Also correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't a barrier erected to make sure there's nobody goes into the time fault and try to steal the power of Toki Toki and his eggs.

Here's a better question if destroying all of the Multiverse was easy as teleporting into the time fault and dropping a bunch of C4 and retreating into the crack of time why do All these villain need to absorb the power of Toki Toki or his eggs to be powerful enough to destroy it in the first place?

Like why didn't you need power over all the time and space just destroys single freaking room?

"And what has Xeno Goku done to warrant him being above Demigra in his final form? "

Because he one shot dudes like gravy absorb all the powers of demigra and Toki Toki and added to his own.

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Gaoron

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Chad_Duby

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#37 Chad_Duby  Online

Xeno Goku is outerversal omnipotent, he stomps.

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Bossmountain

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@chad_duby: he hardly outerversal omnipotent but he still stomps.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

Even if that were true You are aware the scrolls are actually timelines and not just freaking Scrolls,right?

The scrolls hold records of history, yes. That is why Chronoa creates them.

You mean aside from the time time breaker Bardock and Mira fought one another and were destroying timelines? Because she seems pretty concerned and they weren't even fighting in the time vault.

Not sure why you're bringing their amped fight up when we're specifically talking about Beerus endangering the Time Nest if he gets serious and fights there. Why isn't that a concern when he does battle elsewhere if destroying the Time Nest is tantamount to having multiversal DC? If you want to bring other characters, why is it that Dark Broly, Towa (with Mira absorbed) and Xeno Goku all fire their most powerful attacks and not threaten to collapse the multiverse?

Considering it's been stated multiple times at her power holds together the Multiverse and that if she would die everything would disappear along with her I'm going to say yes multiversal barrier confirmed.

Where was that stated? Besides, she couldn't handle Demon God Demigra and needed to rely on Xeno Trunks, Goku and the MC to defeat him. None of which are anywhere close to multiversal... The barrier was also constructed by Elder Kaioshin - not just Chronoa.

And for the record Supreme Kai of time and Corona are the same person I think you're confusing the Supreme Kai with elder Kai. Also correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't a barrier erected to make sure there's nobody goes into the time fault and try to steal the power of Toki Toki and his eggs.

Yes, I'm aware. I was referring to the Elder Supreme Kai, not Chronoa. They erected the barrier around both the city and the Time Nest to prevent future attacks like Demigra's, if I remember right.

Here's a better question if destroying all of the Multiverse was easy as teleporting into the time fault and dropping a bunch of C4 and retreating into the crack of time why do All these villain need to absorb the power of Toki Toki or his eggs to be powerful enough to destroy it in the first place?

Like why didn't you need power over all the time and space just destroys single freaking room?

Demigra wanted to absorb Tokitoki to have complete control over space-time itself. I don't remember him needing that power to merely destroy the Time Vault. If anything, that's how he was going to re-shape history according to his own will after everything was destroyed.

A better question is: Why was a simple sparring match between Goku and the MC prevented due to being regarded as "extremely dangerous" by Chronoa if it took place within the Time Nest, since they could accidentally destroy the universe by damaging the Time Vault? I mean, if the Time Vault is really so durable, such a thing shouldn't be a concern... At least not anymore so than if they were to spar outside of the Time Nest, which doesn't appear to be much of an issue:

Loading Video...

Because he one shot dudes like gravy absorb all the powers of demigra and Toki Toki and added to his own.

Xeno Goku didn't one-shot Makyouka Demigra, though. He had assistance from other warriors and they managed to overwhelm him. Heck, Xeno Trunks can intercept a blast from Dark Demon God Boo meant to seriously hurt or kill Xeno Goku. You would need serious mental gymnastics to justify that being anywhere close to universal, let alone multiversal.

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Bossmountain

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#40  Edited By Bossmountain

@thedarkpaladin:

"The scrolls hold records of history, yes. That is why Chronoa creates them."

first off she doesn't create them they form whenever a person doesn't action second of all they are not records their actual timelines

"Not sure why you're bringing their amped fight up when we're specifically talking about Beerus endangering the Time Nest"

I brought it up you because there's at least two occasions where the entire Multiverse was in danger that had nothing to do with the time Vault simply the force of their fights.

time breaker Bardock fight with Mira and Xeno Goku fight with Makyouka Demigra.

It kind of makes your entire argument totally moot at this point.

No Caption Provided

Where was that stated?

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

The "world" in this context is the multiverse.

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Voice_of_Death

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Cronus just flat out stomps here..

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

first off she doesn't create them they form whenever a person doesn't action second of all they are not records their actual timelines

Since we're referencing wiki info now:

No Caption Provided

She creates new scrolls for the purpose of recording history, since the scrolls themselves are able to travel back to each specific point in time recorded within them. What you're talking about is completely different. Whenever a change is made to history, a Time Scroll will split off and in order to rejoin them together, the Time Patrollers have to fix history:

No Caption Provided

I brought it up you because there's at least two occasions where the entire Multiverse was in danger that had nothing to do with the time Vault simply the force of their fights.

What you're doing is an argumentative fallacy - avoiding the issue. Your proposition was that destroying the Time Vault requires a significant amount of power and warrants Multiversal tiering by bringing up Stephen King's The Dark Tower as an example. When your opponent responds with an argument and proof of his own, you bring up a completely different topic or ignore the point altogether, and that shows given by how much of my argument you've deliberately picked and chosen to respond to, whilst a solid majority of my arguments remain unaddressed.

time breaker Bardock fight with Mira and Xeno Goku fight with Makyouka Demigra.

We've already established that Bardock and Mira were both amped during that instance, therefore scaling Xeno Goku to them doesn't work at all. Another point you ignored was the lack of multiversal destruction or even indication that it was in danger during the battle between Mira (Towa absorbed), Dark Broly and Xeno Goku.

It kind of makes your entire argument totally moot at this point.

From where I'm sitting, my argument has shot down much of what you've attempted to assert already, while you never provided a sufficient counter to many of my points. Then there's still the lack of concrete evidence confirming Xeno Goku is anywhere close to the level of Cronus from Saint Seiya, as well as some of the sources you get your argument/scans from, e.g. VS. Battles Wiki, ranking Cronus on a higher level than Xeno Goku. Based on what I've seen from him so far, I'm not convinced he can handle the likes of God Cloth Seiya or even most of the Gold Knights, let alone Cronus. At this point, I would genuinely be surprised if he's above DBS MUI Goku...

As for your screenshot of Demigra's wiki page, which I might add, is riddled with grammatical and spelling errors, it specifically clarifies that Demigra needed to absorb energy raised to its maximum (from the space-time door, which your wiki neglects to mention) and pour it, along with his own Magical power, into Chamel. So again, this is a buff and doesn't equate to Demigra having 5d power capable of one-shotting the multiverse with a Ki blast or something along those lines, and nothing about Xeno Goku and the others overwhelming him justifies these claims you keep making about Xeno Goku being multiversal, not that it would even be enough to defeat Cronus in the first place. As for Chamel, Goku didn't defeat him alone either and he even acknowledged the former as the strongest.

The "world" in this context is the multiverse.

She was holding together space-time, which she has control of thanks to her role as the Time Kaioshin, and in her Tokinokitara Kaihou form, she supposedly has complete control of all time across the multiverse. She's not much of a fighter in terms of actual power, though. The fact that someone like Elder Kai even needed to assist her with the barrier raises serious questions about its durability being multiversal.

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Chad_Duby

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#43 Chad_Duby  Online
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ArcReactor

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This again? Xeno Goku stomps. Mismatch.

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Bossmountain

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@thedarkpaladin: "From where I'm sitting, my argument has shot down much of what you've attempted to assert already, while you never provided a sufficient counter to many of my points. "

even though Bardock was amped Mira wasn't and he's not very strong at all compared to Demigra or Xeno Goku. So just scaling from Mira who wasn't amped they would already have multiversal attack potency and durability. I keep pointing out that a Time vault nitpick is irrelevant since demigra at his full power was able to destroy almost all the time and space without needing to touch the time vault. At best you can say that base demigra from Xenoverse isn't powerful enough to destroy the Multiverse.

"Another point you ignored was the lack of multiversal destruction or even indication that it was in danger during the battle between Mira (Towa absorbed), Dark Broly and Xeno Goku."

I not avoiding it I just refusing to acknowledge it since it is just a stupid argument it's like saying that Thanos with the infinite gauntlet is not multiversal since when he fights he doesn't destroy the Multiverse on a regular basis.

"As for your screenshot of Demigra's wiki page, which I might add, is riddled with grammatical and spelling errors, it specifically clarifies that Demigra needed to absorb energy raised to its maximum (from the space-time door, which your wiki neglects to mention) and pour it, along with his own Magical power, into Chamel. So again, this is a buff and doesn't equate to Demigra having 5d power capable of one-shotting the multiverse with a Ki blast"

Lol. So because he needed to be at max energies to achieve a form that can destroy the immeasurable/ever growing Multiverse as well as beats World which is a higher dimensional plane proves that the form is not 5th dimensional? Again I fail to logic in your Aruement.

"Chamel, Goku didn't defeat him alone either and he even acknowledged the former as the strongest."

I was talking about gravy I never brought up Chamel.

"She was holding together space-time, which she has control of thanks to her role as the Time Kaioshin, and in her Tokinokitara Kaihou form, she supposedly has complete control of all time across the multiverse. She's not much of a fighter in terms of actual power,"

Again she's not fighting or using her physical power to create that barrier.

"The fact that someone like Elder Kai even needed to assist her with the barrier raises serious questions about its durability being multiversal." Again I don't really since how even though Elder Kai is not a fighter even beerus fears his magical capabilities.

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Thedarkpaladin

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#46  Edited By Thedarkpaladin

@bossmountain:

even though Bardock was amped Mira wasn't and he's not very strong at all compared to Demigra or Xeno Goku. So just scaling from Mira who wasn't amped they would already have multiversal attack potency and durability.

Mira was overwhelmed by Bardock by the point where he began fighting in his SSJ form. He was even shown to be on the losing end prior to Bardock's transformation. Scaling from that instance is already dubious considering the fact that Bardock was not only amped greatly during that battle and continued to increase his power every constantly throughout its duration, but history only disappeared momentarily while Mira remained unconscious, presumably after the fight's conclusion. This was noted as an anomaly (something unusual or unexpected) in the time rift from "all of those superpowers clashing together):

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

As for your point about Bardock being inferior to Xeno Goku, it sure as hell didn't appear that way in this video:

Loading Video...

On the contrary, he casually overwhelmed Xeno Goku in his SSJ4 state, then proceeded to laugh off a combined attack from Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and Beat, before finally forcing Goku and Vegeta to fuse. Furthermore, he appeared relatively unharmed after being on the receiving end of a Spirit Bomb created by SSJ4 Gogeta and the others.

I keep pointing out that a Time vault nitpick is irrelevant since demigra at his full power was able to destroy almost all the time and space without needing to touch the time vault. At best you can say that base demigra from Xenoverse isn't powerful enough to destroy the Multiverse.

I don't think you quite understand what a nitpick is lol... That would imply I'm looking for irrelevant details that hardly affect the arguments you're making, when in actuality, what you're attempting to do is justify characters like Demigra having multiversal DC due to their ability to destroy the Time Vault, which is consistently threatened by characters who are nowhere close to multiversal - information you deliberately omit.

I not avoiding it I just refusing to acknowledge it since it is just a stupid argument it's like saying that Thanos with the infinite gauntlet is not multiversal since when he fights he doesn't destroy the Multiverse on a regular basis.

Lol, no, you're blatantly avoiding it, just like you conveniently ignore every point that corrects you. To be frank, I consider many of the arguments you've made here to be stupid and ill-informed as well, but I give the courtesy of actually addressing them and pointing out why. Now it appears you're attempting to argue a false equivalence using a completely unrelated character once again. Thanos has demonstrated adequate control over the IG's power to the point where he can choose to extinguish half the life in the universe by snapping his fingers or hold back immensely against the Avengers and co. Towa and Bardock weren't in control of their power while fighting in the other dimension and it caused something unexpected to happen with history (temporarily) under very specific circumstances. Nothing at all like this occurs when Mira in a stronger form faces off against Dark Broly and Xeno Goku and they clash using their most powerful attacks. It wasn't even a cause for concern for that matter...

Lol. So because he needed to be at max energies to achieve a form that can destroy the immeasurable/ever growing Multiverse as well as beats World which is a higher dimensional plane proves that the form is not 5th dimensional? Again I fail to logic in your Aruement.

No Caption Provided

Specifically the part that mentions Demigra needed to absorb the energy at its maximum from the space-time door and transfer it to Chamel, along with his own magical energies. The same Chamel who is already comparable to Makyouka Demigra without this amp. Your scaling is also called into question by these numerous instances of Xeno Goku being overwhelmed by characters who are nowhere close to 5d or multiversal, such as Demon God Dabura and Dark Boo. Trunks intercepting attacks meant to damage or kill Goku is undeniable proof of that much.

I was talking about gravy I never brought up Chamel.

And when did Xeno Goku one-shot beings like Gravy, who were shown to be powerful enough to pressure Xeno Trunks and Xeno Vegeta into fusing in order to stop him? Why exactly does one-shotting gravy put him above the being who was going to destroy all of existence within the Saint Seiya world?

Again she's not fighting or using her physical power to create that barrier.

Nor is she using the same space-time manipulation powers that hold together the collapsing multiverse.

Again I don't really since how even though Elder Kai is not a fighter even beerus fears his magical capabilities.

Who cares if he's not a fighter? His magical capabilities were never shown to be enough to justify these multiversal barrier claims you're attempting to make. Also, when was Beerus shown to be afraid of anything from Elder Kai? Their interactions both in game and in the canon universe consistently portray the opposite:

Loading Video...

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Bossmountain

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@thedarkpaladin:

"On the contrary, he casually overwhelmed Xeno Goku in his SSJ4 state, then proceeded to laugh off a combined attack from Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and Beat,"

for starters I'm not entirely sure that Xeno Goku he's not wearing his usual outfit and Beat has alongside other versions of Goku's in the past.

"I don't think you quite understand what a nitpick is lol... That would imply I'm looking for irrelevant details that hardly affect the arguments you're making, when in actuality, what you're attempting to do is justify characters like Demigra having multiversal DC due to their ability to destroy the Time Vault, which is consistently threatened by characters who are nowhere close to multiversal - information you deliberately omit"

I already pointed out that your headcanon makes no sense. multiple characters who try to destroy the time Vault needed to absorb Toki Toki and his eggs to do so what was the point of Towa sneaking into a Time Vault stealing Toki Toki eggs corrupting all of history in order destroyed it . when she could have easily just Chuck some C4 into the room and leave.

"The same Chamel who is already comparable to Makyouka Demigra without this amp."

Camel is only Comparable to Makyuouka Demigra in power When amped up by Makyuouka Demigra power.

No Caption Provided

"Lol, no, you're blatantly avoiding it, just like you conveniently ignore every point that corrects you. To be frank, I consider many of the arguments you've made here to be stupid and ill-informed as well, but I give the courtesy of actually addressing them and pointing out why. Now it appears you're attempting to argue a false equivalence using a completely unrelated character once again. Thanos has demonstrated adequate control over the IG's power to the point where he can choose to extinguish half the life in the universe by snapping his fingers or hold back immensely against the Avengers and co. Towa and Bardock weren't in control of their power while fighting in the other dimension and it caused something unexpected to happen with history (temporarily) under very specific circumstances. "

Destroys half the life in 1 universe is proof of being multiversal but almost destroying the foundation of the multiverse indirectly just by punching someone is not.

"Towa and Bardock weren't in control of their power while fighting in the other dimension and it caused something unexpected to happen with history (temporarily) under very specific circumstances. "

Was that every actually stated or is it more of your headcanon

The entire reason Beerus seal him in the Z sword was because of his magic power.

and considering that the entire Multiverse is hold together by her magical powers a barrier made by that same magic would be pretty strong. why would a magical barrier go off of her physical strength?

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Bossmountain

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#48  Edited By Bossmountain

@thedarkpaladin: Also according to his bio Chamel is also able to destroy the multiverse just by existence. Saying that demigra is not multiversal because he scales to Chamel despite the fact that Chamel is also multiversal it's kind of pathetic.

Also my mistake there are actually been 3 times the Multiverse has been threatened By fights did not take place in the time vault.

Mira vs Bardock

Xeno Goku and Beat vs Chamel

Xeno Goku and Beat vs Demigra.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

for starters I'm not entirely sure that Xeno Goku he's not wearing his usual outfit and Beat has alongside other versions of Goku's in the past.

I wasn't aware regular GT Goku and GT Vegeta were working with Xeno Trunks in the Heroes games. Beat sort of just appeared out of nowhere in that cutscene.

I already pointed out that your headcanon makes no sense. multiple characters who try to destroy the time Vault needed to absorb Toki Toki and his eggs to do so what was the point of Towa sneaking into a Time Vault stealing Toki Toki eggs corrupting all of history in order destroyed it . when she could have easily just Chuck some C4 into the room and leave.

You never proved they needed Toki Toki's egg to destroy the Time Vault. You might be deluding yourself into thinking you did, but the conversation shows otherwise. The purpose of absorbing Toki Toki's egg was never to destroy the Time Vault in Xenoverse. Demigra wanted it to become ruler of all space-time and usurp Chronoa's position as the Supreme Kai of Time. With it, he could create his own history after it was destroyed. The real question that you continue to avoid like the plague is why a simple sparring match between Goku and the MC is considered so dangerous, but only when held inside the Time Nest where they could risk accidentally destroying the Time Vault? Neither of those characters are multiversal, which is what you claim the requirement is for destroying the Vault?

Camel is only Comparable to Makyuouka Demigra in power When amped up by Makyuouka Demigra power.

Um, read the sentence correctly. "Chamel's power is comparable to Makyouka form Demigra, when Demigra adds his magical power and the power from the space-time door into Chamel he becomes so powerful that his simple presence causes the world to begin collapsing". Pay close attention to the comma between "Makyouka form Demigra" and "when Demigra adds his magical power and the power from the space-time door". Not to mention, this effect of the collapsing multiverse can ultimately be attributed to the magical power Demigra installed within him as well as the energy from the space-time door, hence the reason Goku wanted to fight him again in their "purest forms" without any sort of magic or history:

No Caption Provided

All in all, it's very shaky to claim Xeno Goku is multiversal because 1) He he had assistance from the MC in defeating Chamel 2) He claims Chamel is the stronger between the two after all is said and done and the world is no longer in danger.

Meanwhile, Cronus is actually stated on panel to be capable of wiping out all existence in the Saint Seiya multiverse without exception, then proceeded to begin doing so after fusing with Megas Drepanon:

No Caption Provided

"Yo soi el dios que nacio para destruirlo todo" - I am the god that was born to destroy everything

"Soy aquel que cortara las vidas y los tiempo reduciendolo todo a cenizas" - I am the one who cut the lives and time reducing everything to ashes

"A toda existencia sin excepcion" - To all existence without exception

"que es esto" - What is this

"El poder de los caballeros dorados" - The power of the golden knights

"No funcionara contra esto" - It will not work against this

"No ha pasado ni un instante desde que inicio la pelea pero" - Not a moment has passed since the fight started but

"Se puede sentir in la piel la diferencia tan abrumadora de poder" - You can feel the overwhelming difference of power in your skin

Doesn't get much more clear-cut than that, I'm afraid. Xeno Goku has nothing on Cronus in any facet of battle. One touch from his scythe and Goku's temporal existence is destroyed.

Destroys half the life in 1 universe is proof of being multiversal but almost destroying the foundation of the multiverse indirectly just by punching someone is not.

Straw-Man. The example I mentioned wasn't to support Thanos with the IG being multiversal. It was to show that he had ample control over the gauntlet to the point where his powers weren't accidentally threatening to collapse the multiverse. He's multiversal for swatting away beings like Eternity and the other abstracts without much issue.

Was that every actually stated or is it more of your headcanon

You do know what the word "anomaly" means, don't you? And the fact that the history in the scroll they were watching the fight only temporarily disappears after the battle concluded and Towa lost consciousness doesn't coincide with these claims you guys were spewing about Bardock shattering timelines via clashing with Towa.

The entire reason Beerus seal him in the Z sword was because of his magic power.

Nonsense. Beerus sealed Elder Kai over a dispute and only because he didn't think it would be proper to destroy the Kaioshin Realm. Toriyama himself has gone on record and explained this:

"The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus."

Seems like the only headcanon is coming from you, as usual...

and considering that the entire Multiverse is hold together by her magical powers a barrier made by that same magic would be pretty strong. why would a magical barrier go off of her physical strength?

The multiverse isn't held together by magical powers... She merely prevented its collapse during the battle with Chamel using her ability to manipulate space-time thanks to her role as the Kaioshin. Neither Chronoa nor Elder Kai have shown the ability to create defensive barriers that can withstand multiversal attacks or even universal attacks for that matter.

Also according to his bio Chamel is also able to destroy the multiverse just by existence. Saying that demigra is not multiversal because he scales to Chamel despite the fact that Chamel is also multiversal it's kind of pathetic.

It is pretty pathetic. Pathetic that you can't seem to comprehend the very wiki you're citing anyway. At this point, explaining that Chamel's existence destroying the multiverse was due to an amp, which Demigra doesn't scale to, is redundant, as I've already done so numerous times and you've countered with nothing but your argumentum ad nauseam.

Also my mistake there are actually been 3 times the Multiverse has been threatened By fights did not take place in the time vault.

Mira vs Bardock

Xeno Goku and Beat vs Chamel

Xeno Goku and Beat vs Demigra.

Okay, for starters the multiverse wasn't threatened during Mira's fight with Bardock...

Xeno and Beat vs Chamel was due to an amp of both magical power and the maximum raised energy from the space-time door.

When did Demigra threaten the multiverse while fighting Beat and Xeno Goku?

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Bossmountain

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@thedarkpaladin: "I wasn't aware regular GT Goku and GT Vegeta were working with Xeno Trunks in the Heroes games. Beat sort of just appeared out of nowhere in that cutscene."

Beat has fought along side many Version of Goku Include Kid Goku from Dragon ball

"The real question that you continue to avoid like the plague is why a simple sparring match between Goku and the MC is considered so dangerous, but only when held inside the Time Nest where they could risk accidentally destroying the Time Vault?"

Doesn't Toki Toki and the timelines Scrolls rest in time volt it could be out of fear of them being destroyed.

" Neither of those characters are multiversal, which is what you claim the requirement is for destroying the Vault?"

Again says you according to Wiki they both definitely are.

"Not to mention, this effect of the collapsing multiverse can ultimately be attributed to the magical power Demigra installed within him as well as the energy from the space-time door, hence the reason Goku wanted to fight him again in their "purest forms".

And your point is...what?! Because he was amp to the point of being multiversal he somehow is not multiversal? That destroying and withstanding multiversal level magic doesn't require multiversal level power?

"When did Demigra threaten the multiverse while fighting Beat and Xeno Goku?"

One of demigra is Major feats was that he was going to destroy not only all of the Multiverse but beats world as well which is a different dimension entirely that's above the DBH Multiverse.

"which Demigra doesn't scale to, is redundant, as I've already done so numerous times and you've countered with nothing but your argumentum ad nauseam."

How does he not scale to this when he performed this exact same feat himself later on plus effect beats World which is above the Dragon Ball Z Multiverse,

"She merely prevented its collapse during the battle with Chamel using her ability to manipulate space-time thanks to her role as the Kaioshin."

She prevented the Multiverse from collapsing in on itself yet her powers are not multiversal....