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#1 Edited by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

Create your own Star Wars character and beat the Gauntlet:

Picking perks and traits from the lists below, create your own Star Wars character. A jedi, a sith, a gray jedi, a poweful mercenary, the choice is all yours. Just make sure to create one that will be powerful enough to get as far in my gauntlet as possible. You can only spend a total of 30 points on these perks. Please let me know what perks did you choose, and explain how do you beat the gauntlet, or where do you hard stop and why.

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Choose your main weapon:

- Ancient Sith blade (1 point)

- Plasma rod (2 points)

- Electric baton (2 points)

- Energy sword (2 points)

- Energy whip (3 points)

- A lightsaber shoto (3 points)

- A darksaber (3 points)

- Single bladed lightsaber (4 points)

- Saber Staff (5 points)

- Dual lightsaber wield (6 points)

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Choose your gadgets (Optional. Also, you can pick multiple here):

- Han’s blaster (1 points)

- Stormtrooper rifle (1 points)

- Jango’s Jetpack (3 points)

- Chewie’s crossbow (3 points)

- A belt of thermal detonators (3 points)

- Mandalorian armour (5 points)

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Choose your force sensitivity tier:

This trait will determine the extent to which you are able to use your force powers. If you pick force lightning, but only a Sith assassin force tier, your lightning will be no more than a distracting spark. If you combine force lightning with Sith Lord tier though, you will be able to fry you’re opponents Dooku style. Your force sensitivity tier does not influence your lightsaber skill whatsoever. You can be a deadly duelist, and a total muggle no problem (examples: General Grievous, Boba Fett and others)

- None-force sensitive (1 points)

- Jedi padawan tier (2 points) [I’d consider a mean value of padawan Ashoka, Barriss Offee and Nahdar Vebb to be good example of this tier]

- Jedi knight tier (3 points) [I’d consider a mean value of ESB Luke, AOTC Anakin and TPM Obi Wan to be good example of this tier]

- Sith assassin tier (5 points) [I’d consider a mean value of Ventress, the Grand Inquisitor and Savage Opress to be a good example of this tier]

- Jedi master tier (8 points) [I’d consider a mean value of Kit Fisto, Kyle Katarn and Obi Wan to be a good example of this tier]

- Sith Lord tier (10 points) [I’d consider a mean value of Dooku, Maul and Vader to be good examples of this tier]

- Jedi Grandmaster tier (15 points) [I’d consider a mean value of Yoda, Windu and Luke to be good example of this tier]

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Choose your lightsaber skill tier:

Just so we’re clear here, here are some handy definitions of terms I use below:

By skilled, I mean a typical amount of skill in a style an average jedi padawan displays. Enough to beat most self-taught saber duelists and briefly challenge even a master duelist before being eventually defeated in a short fight.

By mastery, I mean a typical amount of skill in a style an average jedi master displays. Enough to challenge even the best of the best for extended periods of time, and make a short work of any self-taught mercenaries and warriors without too much trouble.

By legendary mastery, I mean typical amount of skill in a style that star wars high tiers display in combat, for example, Yoda’s skill in ataru, Dooku’s skill in makashi and Windu’s skill in Vaapad, I’d consider a legendary mastery in a particular style. Enough to overpower and outplay anyone else in a duel, with an exception of other legendary duelists.

The reason why it’s important to acquire skill in more than one style in most scenarios, is because styles are effective in a particular field of combat, while the gauntlet is very diverse. One of the styles will allow you to deflect blaster fire better, another focuses on acrobatics and mobility, yet another on straight saber to saber dueling, another on tactical maneuvers against multiple opponents, and so on. Just so you know, if you only pick mastery in a single style, but you’ll claim to be able to get through an army of droids AND a powerful duelist in the gauntlet, I’ll question your logic.

- Legendary marksmanship skills (5 points) [In case anyone would want to build a mercenary-type SW character, you can choose this additionally to your saber skills]

- Rookie lightsaber training (3 points) [skilled in a single lightsaber style]

- Basic lightsaber training (5 points) [mastery in a single lightsaber style, skilled in all the others]

- Intermediate lightsaber training (7 points) [mastery in three lightsaber styles, skilled in all the others]

- Advanced lightsaber training (10 points) [legendary mastery in a single style, skilled in all the others]

- Senior lightsaber training (15 points) [legendary mastery in three lightsaber styles, mastery in all the others]

- Expert lightsaber training (17 points) [legendary mastery in all lightsaber styles]

Choose your force powers (Optional. Also, you can pick multiple here):

These are cheap, but remember that they are powered by your *force sensitivity tier*. Without investing in it, it’s really pointless to take many of these.

- Force push, pull/Telekinesis (1 point)

- Force choke (1 points)

- Force jump (1 point)

- Force crush (2 points)

- Mind trick/Telepathy (2 points)

- Force augmentation (2 points)

- Tutaminis (3 points)

- Force lightning (3 points)

- Force drain (3 points)

- Force speed (4 points)

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Gauntlet:

1. A group of 10 gungan fighters with shields and energy slings

2. A squad of 3 MagnaGuards

3. A pack of 5 Destroyers

4. A formation of 30 SuperDroids

5. Three units of elite Stormtroopers, 5 troopers each

6. Eight members of Snoke’s Elite Pretorian Guard

7. A group of 12 elite Nightsisters

8. A legion of 150 Battle Droids

9. Ki Adi Mundi

10. Plo Koon

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11. Kit Fisto

12. Assajj Ventress

13. Obi Wan Kenobi

14. Kyle Katarn

15. AOTC Anakin and Obi Wan duo

16. Count Dooku

17. Mace Windu

18. Master Yoda

19. Emperor Palpatine

20. Grandmaster Luke

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Bonus Round: The Son

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#2 Edited by KeenCraft (744 posts) - - Show Bio

Build: Vitiate

Grandmaster Force tier (15 pts)

Doesn't even have rookie training (0 pts) (if not allowed, just cancel the Force drain)

Force Lighrning (4 pts)

Force Drain (4 pts)

Telepathy and illusions (2 pts)

Force Push/Pull (1 pt)

Single Bladed Lightsaber with no clue how to use it (4 pts)

--------

Gauntlet:

Stops at Windu or hard at Yoda/Sidious and walks into their lightsaber blade

Luke and Bonus Round: Gets ragdolled

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#4 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm thinking of building a merc. I just feel like he can go as far as anyone can tbh:

Merc build:
- Energy sword (2pt)
- Jetpack (3pt)
- Stormtrooper blaster (1pt)
- Belt with detonators (3pt)
- mandalorian armour (5pt)
- None force sentistive (1pt)
- Legendary marksmanship skill (5pt)
- Advanced lightsaber training (legendary in makashi) (10pt)

My merc goes through rounds 1-7 like through butter. There isn't nearly enough of these guys to overwhelm me, I'm too skilled with my energy sword so if anyone gets close he gets jabbed, though most of the time I'll be just hovering in the air above them sniping them down one by one. Easy peasy.

Round 8 is kinda tough. I really feel like it should've been higher. Wrecking so many droids solo is pretty much freakin unheard off, unless you are cartoon Mace Windu or smh. I took my thermal detonators for that, I'll be just flying above those droids and showering them with detonators until most of them is gone. Only then I will fly down to them to finish the rest.

Rounds 9-14 I'm more skilled in a saber than any of them, and with my blasters, detonators and all my crap I will be giving them hard time at a distance as well. If they come close, they die, if they keep their distance to use the force, they die. I win.

Duo at round 15 will be very hard. I hope to land a few explosives between them and quickly finish off padawan Anakin. If I can do that, beating Obi Wan solo should be piece of cake.

Round 16. I met my match with the lightsaber skill here, and he has force powers while I don't. I hope to win this only with weapon spam. I will deflect his lightning with my sword and dodge telekinesis with jetpack, and keep spamming explosives and blaster shots until I tag him or at least tire him out. Then I engage in CQC and with my advantage of superior armour and not being tired/hurt I hope to win a close saber duel.

Round 17. Hard stop here. Mace is too much. Honestly, even if I try to pick a force user I'd likely stop at him. Building an equal to Mace with those 30 points seems impossible. I'd need at least 34 to build Mace himself, let alone his superior.

Other rounds are obvious stomp.

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#5 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@keencraft: nice build! I understand you hope to force stomp most of the rounds and stop when you meet someone you can't force stomp. You think you can stomp rounds 13-16 though? Obi Wan, Dooku, Katarn, you think they can be stomped without any saber exchange?

@comicgirl21: love ur post. Keep trying though, maybe you'll think of something! I was able to make a build that allowed me to get all the way to GMLuke with this. I'll share it a bit later in the game though.

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#6 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil: heh, I guess I could try making a duelist build. That could be interesting. I'll post it some time later.

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#7 Edited by KeenCraft (744 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil said:

@keencraft: nice build! I understand you hope to force stomp most of the rounds and stop when you meet someone you can't force stomp. You think you can stomp rounds 13-16 though? Obi Wan, Dooku, Katarn, you think they can be stomped without any saber exchange?

I feel like katarn, a solo Obi-Wan, and Dooku are simply outclassed here. A grandmaster tier Force user can shear through their Force barriers and overwhelm them. Even if there is cover they can use to avoid expending their energy holding the lightning back, drain/TP can sunder these opponents from a distance until they go down.

Note that I was under the assumption that GM tier was like a Yoda or Sidious. These archetypes have been shown casually deflecting or penetrating the defenses of people on the level of even Dooku. Also, Dooku especially wouldn't be suited for handling powerful blasts of lightning for prolonged periods of time. He isn't physically strong enough and it would take more reserves than a younger Force user, being fair he is immune to drain per iirc and he wouldn't be too susceptible to TP.

Being honest, I think Mace would eventually be overwhelmed as well, in a very long and difficult struggle, depending on how hefty the 15 points Grandmaster tier is of course, and the environment, but since I chose to imagine a darksider archetype, Vaapad will kick in and I'm walking into his lightsaber blade.

@comicgirl21: love ur post. Keep trying though, maybe you'll think of something! I was able to make a build that allowed me to get all the way to GMLuke with this. I'll share it a bit later in the game though.

Agreed 👌 this was beautiful lol. Made me think my build was lazily written. But I feel like you would struggle at blocking Tyranus's lightning with zero Force sensitivity. I was pondering if thats even possible

Edited that last bit out. I thought it read "Non-Force sensitive".

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#8 Edited by G_Race (267 posts) - - Show Bio

Single bladed Lightsaber (4)

Grand Master tier (15) (Yoda/Sids build)

Basic Lightsaber training (5) (Soresu Master)

Force Lightning (3)

Force Augmentation (2)

Force Push/Pull Telekinesis (1)

Struggle at 16. 25% success at 17, due to strong force mastery and manageable skill with a lightsaber.

Hard stop at 18.

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#9 Edited by KeenCraft (744 posts) - - Show Bio

Build: Kylo Ren

Rookie Saber Training (3pts)

Jedi Knight Force tier (5pts)

Single Bladed Lightsaber (4pts)

Force push/pull (1pt)

Telepathy (2pts)

Force choke (1pt)

-----

Gauntlet: stops at 3 magnaguards. This build is already proven incapable of handling 3 guards.

___________________________________________

Build: General Grievous

Non Force sensitive, but mechanical augmentation equivalent to Assassin tier (5pts)

Expert Lightsaber training (17pts)

Augmentation (2pts)

Wielding 4 Lightsabers (6pts) (bending the rules because Grievous)

-----

Gauntlet result: Hard stop at Gungans 😏

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#10 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil said:

@keencraft: nice build! I understand you hope to force stomp most of the rounds and stop when you meet someone you can't force stomp. You think you can stomp rounds 13-16 though? Obi Wan, Dooku, Katarn, you think they can be stomped without any saber exchange?

I feel like katarn, a solo Obi-Wan, and Dooku are simply outclassed here. A grandmaster tier Force user can shear through their Force barriers and overwhelm them. Even if there is cover they can use to avoid expending their energy holding the lightning back, drain/TP can sunder these opponents from a distance until they go down.

Note that I was under the assumption that GM tier was like a Yoda or Sidious. These archetypes have been shown casually deflecting or penetrating the defenses of people on the level of even Dooku.

You are correct, more or less. But I don't think it's that simple. You can probably stomp someone who is 2 or 3 tiers below you with force alone, no sabers needed. We've seen that happen with Yoda vs Ventress (Grandmaster to Sith Assassin is 3 tiers difference) for example, or Windu vs Sora (Grandmaster to Jedi Master is 2 tiers difference)

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but stomping someone with a difference of just one tier, should be pretty much impossible. Can Yoda stomp someone on the level of Vader, or Dooku? Without ever touching them with a saber? I honestly think not.

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Yoda wasn't able to beat Dooku with just his force power. It was more then enough to prevent Dooku from hurting him in any way, but stomping him? No.

I could agree that you'd be able to overpower Obi Wan before he gets to you, but both Katarn and Dooku seem to powerful in their own right to just get stomped like this. At least that would be my position until you argument yours better.

Also, Dooku especially wouldn't be suited for handling powerful blasts of lightning for prolonged periods of time. He isn't physically strong enough and it would take more reserves than a younger Force user

Being honest, I think Mace would eventually be overwhelmed as well, in a very long and difficult struggle, depending on how hefty the 15 points Grandmaster tier is of course, and the environment, but since I chose to imagine a darksider archetype, Vaapad will kick in and I'm walking into his lightsaber blade.

Blocking force lightning, even when it's coming from GM tier character is possible for both Dooku and Windu. In fact, Dooku blocked a lightning coming from a Yoda's tutaminis energy ball, and Windu blocked lightning coming directly from Sidious. Both should be able to block a lightning from your GM lvl character, and then follow up with a saber assault, closing the distance with force speed or a quick leap.

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I propose you back your position better, or maybe try a slightly different build with which you'll be able to hang in there in sabers contest long enough to use your powers to maximum potential. That's what I'd suggest, but I'm opened to all your suggestions. For now, I'd say you proved certainly that you can go up to the round 14, and perhaps stop there. Good job! :)

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#11 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@keencraft: lol. had a nice laugh at that post #9 xD

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#12 Edited by MetalJimmor (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

I am going to make an old Star Wars OC of mine and see how it goes.

Name: Jin Loa
Species: Nautolan
Profession: Jedi

Build

  • Saberstaff (5 points)
  • Jedi Master tier (8 points)
  • Advanced Lightsaber Training; Legendary in Ataru (10 points)
  • Powers; Force Jump, Force Augmentation, and Force Speed (7)

Jin Loa favors an unorthodox style. His strategy is to employ Force Augmentation, Force Speed, and Force Jump to greatly enhance his acrobatic capabilities and then combine it with the highly acrobatic Ataru style and the fast, twirling blows of the saberstaff to overwhelm his opponent's defenses.

Rounds 1-8 can get pretty rough. Ataru is a poor choice for blaster reflection and against multiple enemies. However with bursts of Force Speed he can blitz the vast majority of these opponents and the dual-bladed nature of his saberstaff helps compensate for Ataru's weakness to blaster fire. He can also fall back on Soresu maneuvers when he needs to conserve stamina. Force Jump and Force Speed together also make it very easy for him to quickly escape a dangerous situation.

9-14 will be a struggle, but his style excels in 1v1 combat. He engages his opponents with a powerful and surprising burst of Force Speed to put them on the back foot, then goes on to rely on an overwhelming offensive to keep up the momentum and hopefully overwhelm their defenses. Obi-Wan may be the hardest fight, but if Jin can batter down his defenses and hit him before he runs out of stamina he can win.

15 is a hard counter to my style choice unfortunately. Jin Loa would need to kill one or the other very quickly to stand a chance.

I do think Jin can beat 16 however. Yoda used almost this exact same strategy to defeat Dooku when they dueled. Jin can close the gap with Force Speed and quickly put him on the defensive. The only difference is Jin won't need to augment his strength as much as Yoda needed to and has a second blade to threaten Dooku with, allowing him to hammer down on the old master from multiple ever changing angles. Dooku might win if he gets Jin in a force bind, but I don't think Jin would give him the opportunity for that.

17 is a possible win. By the wording in the descriptor I assume my character has mastered Ataru to the highest level, rivaling Windu's own skill in his chosen form. Mace is in better health than Dooku however, and his style revolves around erratic, unpredictable strikes. Strikes my Ataru practitioner can't really meet with direct force, which would make it a dangerous dance. That being said there is very little darkness in Jin's heart, so Vapaad won't have any dark side intent to redirect and enhance it. I could see this duel going either way.

18 I don't see anyone passing, to be honest. Yoda, if I were to design him with this system, vastly exceeds 30 points. He is near unbeatable as a duelist and as a Force sensitive. Jin only got this far by basically being half of what Yoda is: A potent Ataru practitioner with a heavy emphasis on speed and agility but without Yoda's immense Force power.

I may make another character later. This was fun.

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#13 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna do the Valkorion build.

Ignore main weapon, gadgets and Lightsaber skill.

Grandmaster tier for Force Sensitivity and all Force Powers besides Choke, Jump, Crush and Speed.

As for where I makes it to I'll die to The Son certainly and might die to Sidious or GM Luke.

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#14 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: Another excellent post. I think I don't have too many questions about your strategy. I'd argue about taking Dooku's makashi with ataru without being on the force sensitivity tier of Yoda. Having a jedi master tier of force sensitivity, you'd be quite a bit below Dooku's own force augmentation and speed. Mace too, I think would be off limits because of sheer difference in force sensitive tier and superior dueling mastery. None the less, that's pretty awesome character trait design tbh. And I could be swayed on some of my doubts. Good job indeed.

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#15 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

I'd probably ask you the same I asked @keencraft, which would be, how do you propose you deal with duelists who also have their own powers to rival yours and not get stomped? You also mentioned you won't take force speed, which means duelists such as Obi Wan, Katarn and all of the guys above them wouldn't really have much trouble closing the distance.

"Valkorion" build is not a bad try, but I don't think it's a universal solution to all of the rounds.

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#16 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

I'd probably ask you the same I asked @keencraft, which would be, how do you propose you deal with duelists who also have their own powers to rival yours and not get stomped? You also mentioned you won't take force speed, which means duelists such as Obi Wan, Katarn and all of the guys above them wouldn't really have much trouble closing the distance.

"Valkorion" build is not a bad try, but I don't think it's a universal solution to all of the rounds.

I mean given that build should be able to one shot most people I don't think it's bad. As for duellists when it comes down to powerful Force Users lightsabers most of the time become irrelevant.

Also Force Speed isn't necessary as the character can literally just send the lightsaber flying out of their hand with Lightning. Like Sheev did against Yoda.

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#17 Posted by MetalJimmor (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil:

I wasn't sure if Force Sensitivity tier would have that big of a direct impact on your Force Augmentation abilities. Obviously it matters, but it isn't like Dooku was fast enough to pull a Sheev against Obi-Wan and Anakin despite having the same power gap he has with Jin here. Jin is also younger than Dooku and so likely has better innate physicals and stamina.

I'd probably lean toward losing to Mace under those circumstances, though. He'd be a fair bit faster and stronger when amped and has more than just Vapaad under his belt.

All in all, it seems like Force Sensitivity is the single most important trait you can have. Anything less than Grandmaster tier won't get you close to clearing no matter what else you spent points on.

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#18 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1243 posts) - - Show Bio

Gauntlet order makes me feel sick ngl.

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#19 Edited by KeenCraft (744 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor said:

@thoromdil:

All in all, it seems like Force Sensitivity is the single most important trait you can have. Anything less than Grandmaster tier won't get you close to clearing no matter what else you spent points on.

This tbh

(Love the thread though lol.)

Hence the reason me and @arkhamasylum3: went with the same build. There's a few other builds that will get you even with ours, but anything else seems impossible.

Tbh you're not beating The Three since they're already Grandmaster tier w/ Advanced/Expert lightsaber skills and all of those Force powers or a perfect barrier to counter them.

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#21 Posted by noah_ouellette (3496 posts) - - Show Bio

Well. Hard choices here.

Ancient Sith Blade(1 pt): Rationally thinking. These things duel as well as a lightsaber, they just cant manage as well in maneuverability.

Force power: 15 points. Going hard here. Dont want to be a kenobi.

Advanced lightsaber training: 10 points. Gotta have some saber skills. Force is more important though.

Force powers: tuta minas(3 pt) is necessary. Tk(1 pt).

For the gauntlet.

Clear everything up to 18-20. People may be underestimating the night sisters though. 2 and Asaij were enough to press dooku, albeit certainly a situational encounter. 12 is hard odds. Might beat yoda. Force skill not sabers. Sidious proved yoda cant keep up in the tk game forever. Should take it. Might beat sidious the same way. Honestly maybe even in sabers. Mace was pretty much only a legendary master of Vaapad. Quite legendary though. No one here can do anything to GM luke or the son.

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#22 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil said:

@arkhamasylum3:

I'd probably ask you the same I asked @keencraft, which would be, how do you propose you deal with duelists who also have their own powers to rival yours and not get stomped? You also mentioned you won't take force speed, which means duelists such as Obi Wan, Katarn and all of the guys above them wouldn't really have much trouble closing the distance.

"Valkorion" build is not a bad try, but I don't think it's a universal solution to all of the rounds.

I mean given that build should be able to one shot most people I don't think it's bad.

I never said it's bad. It's just that I'd love to hear you elaborate on how do you beat most of the rounds, including the beginning ones, but most importantly the final ones. Beating someone like Obi Wan with force only should be never an automatic win.

As for duellists when it comes down to powerful Force Users lightsabers most of the time become irrelevant.

Please see my post no.10. I disagree with that logic if we're talking about characters who are not very far apart in power.

Also Force Speed isn't necessary as the character can literally just send the lightsaber flying out of their hand with Lightning. Like Sheev did against Yoda.

Nice, see that's what I wanna hear more - you talking about how exactly do you beat the rounds. Then we can discuss the strategy on a deeper level :)

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#23 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil:

I wasn't sure if Force Sensitivity tier would have that big of a direct impact on your Force Augmentation abilities.

I'm just discussing your strategy. You were the one who suggested that you will be using Yoda's strategy in beating Dooku, so I just share my thoughts on the fact that I don't think that unless you can utilize Force Augm to the same level Yoda does it will be that obvious that you can beat Dooku's makashi with ataru.

Obviously it matters, but it isn't like Dooku was fast enough to pull a Sheev against Obi-Wan and Anakin despite having the same power gap he has with Jin here. Jin is also younger than Dooku and so likely has better innate physicals and stamina.

I can agree on a strategy to tier out Dooku. It's that with your particular build it doesn't seem very likely to work the way you describing it. Dooku has many advantages over your character. He's not just more powerful with the force, which negates your argument on beating him with force augm but he is your equal in sword skill and your superior when it comes to quantity of force powers.

I'd probably lean toward losing to Mace under those circumstances, though. He'd be a fair bit faster and stronger when amped and has more than just Vapaad under his belt.

All in all, it seems like Force Sensitivity is the single most important trait you can have.

Well, it really depends on your build and what do you really want to invest in. It is the most rewarding when if you want to base your argument on winning via force powers, but that doesn't have to be the case. @comicgirl21 didn't picked a completely force-less character and I agree with most of her logic on beating everyone all the way to Dooku. She simply invested in other advantages than you. You didn't really invest too much into saber skill, at least not enough to clearly outmatch Dooku, which I think is the main obstacle here.

Anything less than Grandmaster tier won't get you close to clearing no matter what else you spent points on.

I'd disagree on that. Saber skill can be clearly very much separate from force sensitivity, characters like Grievous, Boba Fett and Jango, all of which killed experienced high tier force users by just using their CQC skill, are good examples of that.

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#24 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

Gauntlet order makes me feel sick ngl.

Just treat it as random then. Obviously most of the close rounds like Katarn being above Obi Wan will be a matter of opinion.

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#25 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor said:

@thoromdil:

All in all, it seems like Force Sensitivity is the single most important trait you can have. Anything less than Grandmaster tier won't get you close to clearing no matter what else you spent points on.

This tbh

Like I said to the quoted fellow, I think it really depends on your strategy. If you are only willing to make an argument that you can beat a force user with superior force power, then yeah, it seems to be the most important perk. But based on all the things that happened in the lore so far, arguments can be made about overpowering force users in many different ways then just by challenging them on even ground in the force.

(Love the thread though lol.)

Hence the reason me and @arkhamasylum3: went with the same build. There's a few other builds that will get you even with ours, but anything else seems impossible.

I think there can be many different strategies and arguments made. But yeah, I guess Vitate is popular on CV for a reason. Investing everything in force powers is certainly a way to go pretty far here.

Tbh you're not beating The Three since they're already Grandmaster tier w/ Advanced/Expert lightsaber skills and all of those Force powers or a perfect barrier to counter them.

Nobody, with possible exception of the Son, who is a bonus round and a joke really, proved to be undefeated so far. Even GM Luke has had plenty of challenging opponents in the old canon, and copying some of the strategies his antagonists took to beat him would be a way to challenge even him.

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#26 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

Well. Hard choices here.

Ancient Sith Blade(1 pt): Rationally thinking. These things duel as well as a lightsaber, they just cant manage as well in maneuverability.

Force power: 15 points. Going hard here. Dont want to be a kenobi.

Advanced lightsaber training: 10 points. Gotta have some saber skills. Force is more important though.

Force powers: tuta minas(3 pt) is necessary. Tk(1 pt).

For the gauntlet.

Clear everything up to 18-20.

Nice build! Very practical, I like it a lot. But can you please explain a bit more how do you end up struggling only with final rounds? I think the gauntlet is quite challenging no matter how you build, even the early rounds really do require at least some explanation.

People may be underestimating the night sisters though. 2 and Asaij were enough to press dooku, albeit certainly a situational encounter. 12 is hard odds. Might beat yoda. Force skill not sabers. Sidious proved yoda cant keep up in the tk game forever. Should take it.

That's a pretty questionable logic. Yoda would be exactly your match when it comes to power alone. He is in the same force tier and has access to the tutaminis and tk just like you. He actually is a master in far more powers then you've invested in, which gives him a versatility edge in force power duel, and if he ever manages to close the distance on you, you'd probably lose a saber duel rather quickly too. Sidious didn't really beat Yoda with telekinesis, he beat him with force lightning, and even that only happened in the very specific circumstances granted by the battlefield. The same arguments should be made about Windu, who is also your force tier, with access to more force powers, and a superior duelist. I could see you making a good argument against Dooku though. Could please elaborate

Might beat sidious the same way. Honestly maybe even in sabers. Mace was pretty much only a legendary master of Vaapad.

Actually, Mace is a master of all saber styles, Vaapad is just his trademark style because he invented it.

Quite legendary though. No one here can do anything to GM luke or the son.

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#27 Posted by noah_ouellette (3496 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil: Sure. It’s just the way I see it Yoda really lost when they moved into the senate and sidious started throwing those things. Yoda seemed to struggle to keep up, a showing of his old age. Basically I think it comes down to the mindset. I should have more stamina than an older yoda does. I also know what I am capable of with my powers. If this is literally just me going into Star Wars there is a crazy amount of things I can do with tk alone that other force users simply didn’t have the imagination to do. Also you better believe I will be throwing large buildings at yoda. This is why yoda’s versatility with more force powers stops being useful. Firstly he is a light side force user, making it so this doesn’t really upgrade his attack potency. Also a Jedi Knight with a great mind and imagination flew with her tk alone despite her being only an average force user. So I’ll be flying around. Giving me an edge against yoda. I just think the amount of things I’ll be able to throw at yoda will give me a massive edge here as older yoda struggled to keep up in his force contest with sidious. Mace wasn’t on the tier of yoda in force powers so I should be able to slam him around fairly quickly. Also I believe he wasn’t a master of the others, simply a good duelist in all forms. I didn’t mention this as he has nowhere near the same mastery in anything else than vaapad.

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#28 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright! I'll give it another try with my duelist build. Let's roll!

- Ancient Sith blade (1pt)

- Han's blater (1pt)

- Jedi master teir (8pt)

- Expert lightsaber training (17pt)

- Tutaminis (3pt)

General info on the character:

My character is basically a jedi master obsessed with lightsaber training. He trained every style to absolute perfection his whole life, and nobody but the best in the order's history can even briefly challenge him. He is decently powerful with the force, and specializes in tutaminis. I picked tutaminis just to not get force stomped by the higher tiers. If I focus all of my force on defense tutaminis, resisting incoming telekinesis, lightning etc, I hope jedi master tier will buy me enough time even against high tiers to close the distance and engage in a saber duel, in which I'll just stomp anyone eventually.

My style and strategy:

No Caption Provided

I am combining a one handed Sith blade with Han's blaster to create an unsusual style, that I hope will work to my advantage. Kinda like Ezra proved this can be a good strategy many times, by actually fusing a saber and a lightsaber into a single weapon.

I'll be just dual wielding a Sith sword and a blaster, spamming energy blasts in between my strikes in CQC. I know I didn't take the legendary marksman perk, but if I fire my blaster at close quarter this shouldn't matter, as I won't be aiming from a far at all. This should be very effective against other competent duelists, as it they lack experience and feats fighting anyone with this level of saber skill and unsusual style at the same time.

Rounds and how I beat them:

Round 1-5

is just me protecting against energy blasts with my unrivaled skill very easily, reflecting all the blasts back at the source (yes, Sith swords can actually do that too) until everyone is dead. If they won't die from reflected fire, I just close the distance and shred them in person. Very easy rounds with this build.

Rounds 6 and 7

are gonna probably be a wet dream for my character. A chance to prove his skill with a blade. He will gladly engage these groups of skilled enemies and just absolutely demolish them with his saber skill. Even easier rounds than first 5.

Round 8

is probably gonna be one of the hardest rounds for my character, even including final rounds. Beating so many droids without proper force powers or explosives will take a long time and be very trouble some. But, I will argue that my character can still pull this off. Firstly, because these are not even super-droids, but battle droids, which makes them both horrible at aiming and paper when it comes to durability, secondly, because my character is so skilled with a blade, that hitting him with a blaster will be almost impossible, and thirdly, my character also has a blaster, so he can kill droids more efficiently than most characters, not only reflecting their shots at them, but firing his own at the same time. I'll argue I can beat this round with enough time, and OP doesn't give me time limit, so clear in the end.

Round 9-13

are piece of cake. These guys are by far my inferiors when it comes to dueling, and my match when it comes to force tier at best, and they don't have any force powers that could go through my tutamenis at all. I can just fight with one hand behind my back and kill all of them in a matter of seconds tbh. I stomp their asses.

Round 14

a first actual challenger. Katarn has solid dueling skill and his force powers could be a problem. He has it all, choke, lightning, tk, tp etc. But as far as my knowledge goes, he is not actually a very high tier when it comes to sheer power of the force. I'd consider him to be in jedi master tier, the same tier I'm in. In other words, though he has an edge in versatility, he won't really be able to get through my tutaminis and hurt me with the force. So in the end, it will come to down to a saber fight. And even though Katarn would probably be considered a master in many if not all styles, I wouldn't consider him really legendary at all of them, if at any at all. He will be able to hold his own agianst me for some time, but then I will overwhelm him sooner or later. I clear with some difficulty.

Round 15

This will be actually easier round than Katarn with my build. Neither AOTC Anakin or Kenobi can do anything to me force-wise as they are barly my equals in force tier, if at all. Neither can rival me in sabers for a second too, I believe there is several tiers worth of gap between us, so I can rather comfortably fight them at the same time even if they have perfect teamwork (which they don't) and win.

Round 16

Finally a round that will give me some trouble. This is probably the first round after round 8 that I'll clear only with some actual difficulties. Dooku is a tier above me when it comes to the force. However, @thoromdil mentioned he believes that just one tier of gap in power is not enough to straight stomp somone, so Dooku will not be really able to stomp me. In other words, I will survive his tk, choke and lightning with my tutaminis and sheer resistance coming from my high force tier, and Dooku will have no choice, he is gonna have to resolve this with sabers, like against Obi Wan. And he will fail. Though he is advanced in saber skill, maybe even senior in skill, I am THE expert in the field here. I will match him in makashi, and comfortably switch between my styles, leaving him confused and eventually outmatched and defeated. A sure victory, though with mid difficulty.

Round 17

Now we're talking. I didn't believe my merc build would get me through this round, but I will make an argument that with high difficulty, my character will get past R17. Mace's skill is anywhere between Advanced to Expert from what I understand, but even assuming he is THE expert and my equal, and by far my superior in the force quality and quantity, I do have some significant advantages in this fight.

1. Mace is known for resolving matchups against other high tiers with a saber. I'm counting on the fact that in-character Mace won't just attempt to overpower me, and keep his distance to spam force abilities. He is not like that at all. He surely will accept my saber challenge, which he feels most comfortable with as well.

2. My character is a light side jedi, so Mace won't have any additional amps from his favorite Vaapad. To the contrary, Mace DOES have dark side issues himself, so if anything, my character using Vaapad will be actually more powerful than Mace. Vaapad will be all the more effective against Mace, because besides him little to no one has mastered this style, in other words, he is not used to fighting against his own style at all.

3. The unusual style of combat that I prefer will work to my advantage here. Mace is used to dueling other lightsaber users specifically, My Sith sword will be an unsual weapon to him and he won't be sure how to approach it in a duel, while I will feel comfortable. It's kinda like fighting a lef handed table tennis player for the first time. He is used to fighting right handed players like you, but you will have a hard time acknowledging that the same strategies won't always work against a mirrored match.

4. My rifle is what will eventually give me a victory. I'll match Windu in sabers, use his own favorite Vaapad against his inner darkness and lack of counter-Vaapad experience. My unsual style of combat will make him lose ground or make a mistake now and then, and before he will be able properly adjust and learn, I'll utilize my blaster, to suddenly pull it off and attempt to shoot him during a saber clash. Even if I won't succeed, it will make him lose composure for sure, providing an opening, which is all a master like myself needs to deal a fatal blow. In the end, the details like these will provide the verdict when the fight is beween two saber masters. High difficulty, but Mace goes down.

Round 18

I'll be that cocky, and argue that I can actually win this round as well. Though I could see my character stopping here, I think I could actually marginally win this round. MAYBE 5.5/10 or something, but yeah, I think I will. The fight will be much harder for me, because of Yoda's force mastery, and also because it is in-character for him to take the fight into a force duel from the very start, which is something I really don't want to do. My answer is simple - close the distance as fast as I can, taking minimal damage. Though my tutaminis is weak in comparison to Yoda's force tier, it will be enough to lessen the impact of his force assaults, and I'll argue that my character will be able to close the distance before Yoda can finish him off with force alone. When I successfully engage him in a duel, I'll just focus on one thing - getting him tired.

No Caption Provided

Yoda struggling to lift a medium sized pillar after an intense duel with Dooku.

Yoda's battles has shown that his age is his probably greatest weakness. After his fight with Dooku, Yoda was visibly exhausted, gasping as he was speaking to him. He also struggled to lift a pillar in the force, which should be childs play to him, and immediately grabbed his walking stick, not bothering to even try and stop Dooku's escaping ship, obviously tired as hell. Similarly when Yoda fought the Emperor, his age was probably the reason why he was in the end, defeated. After a prolonged fight with Sidious, Yoda was so tired, that despite all of his force augmentation skill, he couldn' lift himself up, and fell from a pod's edge.

This is what I hope to accomplish in this duel. First, get to Yoda as fast as possible, blocking majority of his force impact with my tutaminis. Second, prolong the fight using my legendary skill, to the point when Yoda's force prowess and stamina will begin to drop. When that happens and Yoda will be getting pushed by my in the sabers duel, I'll suddenly reveal my blaster, and similarly to Windu, I'll try to assassinate Yoda with it in CQC while we are saber-clinching or in a similar scenario. Chances are pretty big, in my opinion, that a tired down Yoda will not manage to dodge an unexpected blast, or that dodging it will cost him an opening that I'll exploit with my sword. In the end, with some damage, and with extreme difficulty, my character will be able to beat Yoda.

Round 19

This is actually going to be easier than either Mace or Yoda round for my character. With my build focused so heavily on saber offense, and Palpatine clearly preferring a force duel over lightsaber battle, this can only go two ways - either Palpatine fries me with his lightning and stomps with his tk, or I kill him in a saber duel. Palpatine lost a saber only duel with Mace, and against Yoda he was heavily pushed as well, and for all we know, forced to switch to the force battle completely off screen, possibly even losing his lightsaber. Either way, Palpatine can and WILL be bested in a lightsaber duel when he is fighting someone on the level of Yoda, Mace or... yeah, myself. My objective in this round is simple. Close the distance immediately and kill him before he kills me. How do I do that?

I'll completely resign from the element of surprise I used against Yoda and Mace here for the sake of strategy - I'll reveal my blaster from the very start, and I'll shoot wildly at Palpatine as I run up to him. Sidious either has to pull out his saber immediately to block the blaster shots, or focus his force powers on blocking the shots, instead of killing me. Even if we assume he is capable of multitasking enough to keep protecting himself from blaster fire and stomping me at the same time, his power and focus is divided, and my tutaminis will block enough of the rest of what's coming to keep me alive as I approach him.

Sidious is arrogant. I doubt that when I run up to him with my sword exposed, he'll try to run and keep his distance to keep spamming the force. He'll probably take the bait and start fighting me with sabers. At this point, my blaster won't give me the edge to finish a duel, but like I proved above, Sidious is actually slightly BELOW the tier of saber dueling experts such as Yoda and Windu, so he is also below me - in other words, I can do this even without an additional edge this time. Yes I can win.

There are some things that can go wrong with this strategy, but I think it'll work more often then not, mostly because of how cocky Sidious is. Like I said, with my build I'd consider this fight easier than one against Yoda. Vs Yoda I'd say I can win 5.5/10 with injuries and heavy difficulty. Against Palpatine I'd say I'll only have minor burns from his lightning that I didn't manage to absorb or block with a saber, but besides that, it's a clear, mid difficulty win. 7/10 maybe.

Round 20

Here I am at the last round of the Gauntlet. It was a long run, but I will at least try and argue I can match, and MAYBE, MAYBE beat Luke under some circumstances, with extreme difficulty, and near-death injuries. 5.00000001/10 maybe. But yeah, I'm gonna go there, and try to beat the gauntlet. Let's do this Luke. Rey won't save you now.

My only hope is to try and match Luke in CQC. Against an in-character Luke, this may actually work, because Luke, pretty much like Mace Windu, feels most comfortable fighting someone in a saber duel rather than just spamming force abilities. Let's be clear though, Luke can probably one shot me with the force if he has time to focus and if he really tries. I said I believe I can win this narrowly 5.01/10 times, and the other 4.99 are all Luke stomping my ass with the force. So my initial strategy here is very similar to the one I used against Palpatine - I run at Luke for my dear life, shooting at him with my blaster and putting up tutaminis in the hopes of at least weakening his initial force assaults. I do believe Luke will pull out his lightsaber to deflect the blaster, which seems to be what he always does in situations like this, which is also my only hope to drag him into a duel before he realizes what advantage he just lost.

When we're going all out with our sabers, my key advantages are again, my unsual style (sith sword, which Luke is not used to countering) and blaster/saber combination, on top of my highest lightsaber skill tier, which will mean even Luke is gonna find his technical match.

Now, why do I think I can win a duel with freakin GM Luke? Well, that's because although Luke is the most powerful force user in the lore he is not without weakness. In fact, if he does have ANY weaknesses at all, it is a weakness against unusual weapons and styles he never approached.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here, Luke loses his fight against Lumiya. He later gets an additional shoto lightsaber to counter her style and beat her in his rematch. This doesn't change the fact though, that when first facing a style he was unfamiliar with, he lost fair and square.

This is more or less what will happen in our duel. Fighting somone who uses both a blaster and a Sith sword at close range, instead of your typical lightsaber, Luke will have a hard time adjusting to my style. My bet is, that with our skill being in the same tier, and my character having a key advantage like this, even GM Luke will lose round 1 against me. Though he'd probably come on top if he had basic knowledge, prep time or ability to rematch me, this is not the case here. In other words, GM loses, not because he is weaker than me, but because of my unusual strategy, taking a fight immediately to a field I can challenge him in, and clever use of my strengths he doesn't share with me.

Bonus round:

Maybe next time... Not touching this xD

Verdict:

No Caption Provided

The gauntlet is beat. My warrior stand's bleeding and tired, but undefeated.

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#29 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil: Sure. It’s just the way I see it Yoda really lost when they moved into the senate and sidious started throwing those things.

Come on, he just tripped over once. He wasn't losing. In fact, when he stopped trying to reach Palps, withdrew his saber and focused on the force duel, he was immediately able to stop a platform that Sidious was throwing at him, and then he overpowered his telekinesis with his own and shot it right back in his face!

No Caption Provided

Yoda seemed to struggle to keep up, a showing of his old age.

Well if Palpatine ended up falling from the senate seat and Yoda didn't, the result would be reversed. I honestly think they were evently matched for the most part. Both struggled, both got ragdolled a few times.

Basically I think it comes down to the mindset. I should have more stamina than an older yoda does. I also know what I am capable of with my powers. If this is literally just me going into Star Wars there is a crazy amount of things I can do with tk alone that other force users simply didn’t have the imagination to do. Also you better believe I will be throwing large buildings at yoda.

Yoda can do that too though. He can throw around much bigger stuff than just buildings. I don't think he's less imaginative than you in that aspect.

No Caption Provided

This is why yoda’s versatility with more force powers stops being useful. Firstly he is a light side force user, making it so this doesn’t really upgrade his attack potency.

What about force crush? Or force speed? Or even ability of tutaminis to shoot back absorbed energy? There are some offensive force powers out there that will give him edge. In a fight between close equals this will be showing sooner or later.

Also a Jedi Knight with a great mind and imagination flew with her tk alone despite her being only an average force user. So I’ll be flying around. Giving me an edge against yoda.

I think Yoda can probably fly. He just doesn't bother, he has his floating chair most of the time lol. Well, Dooku can fly, and Yoda taught him, so Yoda can probably fly too.

No Caption Provided

I just think the amount of things I’ll be able to throw at yoda will give me a massive edge here as older yoda struggled to keep up in his force contest with sidious.

Again, I don't really think he struggled. The result was kind of a tossup, and they both had a similar account of tags and ragdolls on eachother by the end.

Mace wasn’t on the tier of yoda in force powers so I should be able to slam him around fairly quickly.

I'd disagree here. Though Windu is probably not EXACTLY as strong as Yoda, and certainly not as wise, he is clearly in the same tier. He is constantly shown to be. He was the only jedi to fight Sidious on even ground besides Yoda. He was also shown WITh Yoda many times as equal:

No Caption Provided

There are even quotes that put Windu above Yoda in power. Anakins quote about Obi Wan being as wise as master Yoda and as powerful as master Windu for example. Or more direct quotes like this:

Though Yoda's junior by eight centuries, Mace Windu is seen as Yoda's equal in the Jedi Order, and he is a senior member of the Jedi Council.

Revised Core Rulebook

Mace Windu is a powerhouse of a Jedi. He is the strongest and toughest of them all.

Star Wars Obi-Wan Prima Guide

He made her nervous in a way no other Jedi did, not even Master Yoda. His presence in the Force was breathtaking. Standing beside him was like being buffeted by a gale-and he wasn't even trying. He was just breathing, just being himself. What it felt like to be near Mace Windu when he exerted himself? That was something she wasn't sure she ever wanted to experience.

The Clone Wars: Gambit Siege

Also I believe he wasn’t a master of the others, simply a good duelist in all forms. I didn’t mention this as he has nowhere near the same mastery in anything else than vaapad.

Nice chat, though I don't really think winning against Yoda will be ease by picking perks that make you his match in just one aspect, while leaving all other advantages in his corner. You need SOME edge of real value in your strategy, especially against Yoda. Will you be addressing any other rounds though? I mean we are taking it straight to round 18, which is kinda high. I'd love to hear how do you actually plan on beating the gauntlet itself.

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#30 Posted by Thoromdil (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: Whoa. What a great post! Thanks a lot for going into details. I'll read it some time later and respond if I have comments. It looks great though! Love it!

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#31 Posted by ElSebbe (319 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Red_Leader (907 posts) - - Show Bio

I made a force user build and i got

Grand master Level (15)

Tutaminis (3)

Telepathy (2)

Augmentation (2)

Force Speed (4)

Telekinesis (1)

Choke (1)

Crush (2)

I get to 14 at least but I could get to 16 and then loose at 17 depending on how much rest I get between rounds

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#33 Posted by RikuYamaha (1480 posts) - - Show Bio

my character will be named Jorjale

his stuff.

Jedi Grandmaster tier (15 points)

Force push, pull/Telekinesis (1 point)

- Force choke (1 points)

- Force jump (1 point)

- Force crush (2 points)

- Mind trick/Telepathy (2 points)

- Force augmentation (2 points)

- Tutaminis (3 points)

- Force lightning (3 points) 30 points spent.

Rounds

A group of 10 gungan fighters with shields and energy slings

Being a absolute jedi master, he would launch himself into battle and use his force chock to pretty much chock all of them out at once. making them drop their weapons, jorjale would force crush all of them at once with ease.

A squad of 3 MagnaGuards

using his force, he would force pull them all towards them, then using his lightning to shock them and make them overcharge. after, he would smash them into the ground several times before throwing them away.

A pack of 5 Destroyers

seeing them all role up into a ball,he would push the blasts away with his force push. he would then lift the ground below the destroyers and force crush them from inside their shields.

A formation of 30 SuperDroids

using the droids slowness to his advantage, he would would his force jump to lift himself into the air, as they open fire, he would use the force to take hold of the blasts and impale all of them with their barrage of blasts.

Three units of elite Stormtroopers, 5 troopers each

using his mind trick,he would make them all drop their weapons. he would then bust a cap in their face using their own blasters.

Eight members of Snoke’s Elite Pretorian Guard

seeing them head towards them, he would weave though one of the attackers blade and use his force lightning to shock and kill the one. he would kickflip the member and use the force to take old of the saber spear and ram it though three of the members. one would attempt to stab him when he uses his tutaminis to adsorb the heat from the saber and force crush the guy. using the jedi mind trick, he would then calm them down enough for him to force crush them all.

A group of 12 elite Nightsisters

being a master of the force, he could tell theses were dangerous beings. speeding towards them, he would send a wave of force lightning to kill 4 before jumping into the sky. he would land near a group and crush them with his ability and then force chock the rest.

A legion of 150 Battle Droids

speeding towards them, he would take hold of all the blasts and impale the most of them while using the force to lift the ground and attack all of them with immensely sized rocks and other stuff.

Ki Adi Mundi

force crush.

Plo Koon

Stops at him.

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#34 Edited by KeenCraft (744 posts) - - Show Bio

The builds here have been really fun to read, but I have just one nitpick before I finish my other response; there is a reason the Sith Sword is a lousy 1 point.

All of you guys are Really overestimating a Sith sword. Honestly choosing this means you're screwed. If it isn't alchemically enhanced (which should be more pts as that doesn't make sense why a lightsaber should be the same, for more cost), in comparison to a lightsaber its going to be more unwieldy, slower, and you're losing an infinitely greater advantage against a lightsaber no matter how great of a duelist tier you chose:

A sword is one or two-dimensional. You're dead against any PT master unless your augmentation tier is GM. Even then, you stop hard at someone like Obi-Wan or Dooku that can at least keep up.

Let's talk about the lightsaber. It offers cutting from EVERY angle. This is insane. Many cuts from fighters in the real world are null simply because the blade didn't even register contact. Every cut from any angle matters, a small knick becomes a deadly blow instead of a bleeding wound(refer to AotC Kenobi, or imagine a "small cut" to the wrist with a lightsaber) No sword has a cutting edge on all sides. Not only that, lightsabers can thrust just as well as any foil.

You can switch to a fencer's Makashi style, a broadsword or longsword-like Djem So style, and don't even imagine using Juyo or ataru with a sword. And you can do this without even losing advantages.

About swords. There are too many categories, but I'll narrow them down to three general types.

Fencing (foils, rapiers, epees, sabres)

Greatsword (think Claymore)

Longsword/broadsword (Think European longsword)

At first glance, the best choice against an unarmored Jedi would be a foil/rapier. But this leaves you with double edged Makashi sword with none of that plasma cutting power. A weapon that focuses on small cuts with the back of the sword, or deadly thrusts with the tip. All of which a lightsaber can do better, but can also parry heavier blows like a longsword or katana/greatsword. You're done on defense. Foils can't sustain any sort of kinetic energy from Jedi that can hit like a truck. Remember Anakin in episode 3 against Dooku? This is you except with a more vulnerable weapon not designed to trade weight. Trading knicks will cause bleeding for your opponent, whereas your opponent will have knicked your hand or arm off.

A greatsword. A terrible two handed choice. Swinging this will be like swinging a lightsaber, except slower and with dual edges. You have a slight reach advantage which is destroyed by the fact that the lightsaber can be wielded with one hand and your moveset is far more predictable. May as well stick to half-swording on defense and die here if your augmentation levels are on the same tier.

A longsword is the bread and butter sword. Its made for cutting, thrusting, parrying, and can be half-sworded for better defense. Like all swords here, generally the same length as a lightsaber. You have an advantage in that half-swording is unique to swords; half-swording a lightsaber sounds like a bad idea. But again, same disadvantages of being as slow as the greatsword, having edges, and none of the cutting power of superheated plasma. Oh and you're pretty much screwed against Dooku or Yoda. Dooku due to his dueling form, Yoda due to the fact that its nearly impossible to get proper leverage when dueling a midget alone, and tagging Yoda will be almost impossible with a weapon that can't be turned and angled at a moment's notice like a lightsaber.

The best against a saber is just my opinion. The rest is just basic sword knowledge.

Jedi and Sith didn't just switch to lightsabers because they looked cooler, but they even get that as an advanrage. Just a nitpick

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#35 Edited by KeenCraft (744 posts) - - Show Bio

Only sword advantage

It saves extra points on saber training. It's useless to choose more than advanced mastery in a single form, as your sword will be limited to a single style, with working skill in all the opponent's forms.

It can be halfsworded if it's not a foil.

Thinner swords can bend to get around your opponent's guard, but this also screws you over in that blocking is done for.

And don't even get me started on the droid battalion with only a sword unless you're a high tier Force user or have some kind of blaster/armor

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#36 Posted by Supermanthor (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@g_race said:

Single bladed Lightsaber (4)

Grand Master tier (15) (Yoda/Sids build)

Basic Lightsaber training (5) (Soresu Master)

Force Lightning (3)

Force Augmentation (2)

Force Push/Pull Telekinesis (1)

Struggle at 16. 25% success at 17, due to strong force mastery and manageable skill with a lightsaber.

Hard stop at 18.

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#37 Edited by KeenCraft (744 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil said:
@keencraft said:
@thoromdil said:

@keencraft: nice build! I understand you hope to force stomp most of the rounds and stop when you meet someone you can't force stomp. You think you can stomp rounds 13-16 though? Obi Wan, Dooku, Katarn, you think they can be stomped without any saber exchange?

I feel like katarn, a solo Obi-Wan, and Dooku are simply outclassed here. A grandmaster tier Force user can shear through their Force barriers and overwhelm them. Even if there is cover they can use to avoid expending their energy holding the lightning back, drain/TP can sunder these opponents from a distance until they go down.

Note that I was under the assumption that GM tier was like a Yoda or Sidious. These archetypes have been shown casually deflecting or penetrating the defenses of people on the level of even Dooku.

You are correct, more or less. But I don't think it's that simple. You can probably stomp someone who is 2 or 3 tiers below you with force alone, no sabers needed. We've seen that happen with Yoda vs Ventress (Grandmaster to Sith Assassin is 3 tiers difference) for example, or Windu vs Sora (Grandmaster to Jedi Master is 2 tiers difference)

We've also seen Tyranus stomp Ventress, Malak stomp mid end game Revan, Sidious crush Tyranus's neck, Sidious stomp Maul and Savage simultaneously, Valk stomp Arcann, Sidious able to stomp reg Galen Marek, Dooku stomp Kenobi, Vader stomp mid end game Galen,

Not sure how far you see each one of those characters from each other, but some of those are definitely only a tier apart. Some maybe two tiers. Looking mostly at Dooku laughing at Ventress, then Kenobi getting knocked out. Maul also wrecking Kenobi multiple times.

Then we've seen equal tiers constantly breaking each others defenses relatively evenly. So clearly a Force focus will certainly grant you as much of a victory as a saber would. Same conclusion, different means.

but stomping someone with a difference of just one tier, should be pretty much impossible. Can Yoda stomp someone on the level of Vader, or Dooku? Without ever touching them with a saber? I honestly think not.

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Dooku's words in the utter failure of his attacks mean nothing. The ease Yoda repulsed everything alone shows Yoda would turn Dooku into this

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And yes, I'd bet my lung that Yoda would stomp Dooku. And anyways, a Force victory doesn't even need to be a literal stomp. If you are more powerful, they will wear down until their defense is depleted.

Yoda wasn't able to beat Dooku with just his force power. It was more then enough to prevent Dooku from hurting him in any way, but stomping him? No.
Yoda wasn't able to beat Dooku with just his force power. It was more then enough to prevent Dooku from hurting him in any way, but stomping him? No.

You pretty much made this up. Nowhere did Yoda show he "wasn't" able to do this, only that Yoda didn't do this. What really happened, is a being that believes the Force should only be used in defense casually dismissed everything thrown at him, and didn't even bother to entertain a Force bout against his old Apprentice.

By the way, when he made an exception

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Still not going to be covinced that Yoda wouldn't have crushed Dooku.

I could agree that you'd be able to overpower Obi Wan before he gets to you, but both Katarn and Dooku seem to powerful in their own right to just get stomped like this. At least that would be my position until you argument yours better.

How exactly is Katarn superior to Kenobi? Speaking of Katarn, on a nexus, he was incapped by the mere sound of the joules in Tavion's lightning, and then TK'd by her. Gonna be difficult to convince me that Yoda/Sidious wouldn't turn him inside out with the Force.

Blocking force lightning, even when it's coming from GM tier character is possible for both Dooku and Windu. In fact, Dooku blocked a lightning coming from a Yoda's tutaminis energy ball, and Windu blocked lightning coming directly from Sidious. Both should be able to block a lightning from your GM lvl character, and then follow up with a saber assault, closing the distance with force speed or a quick leap.

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No one said blocking lightning wasn't possible, but they're going to exhaust their strength blocking a continuous stream of lightning on the potency level of Sidious/Valkorion. And as arkham already noted, a concentrated burst is going to send sabers flying at GM tier. Or it will simply shear straight through their barrier regardless if they're holding a lightsaber. Mace is either unique in that Vaapad gave him the extra strength, or Sidious was laughing at him.

Not to mention that this is a circumstance where Mace has Sidious pinned to the floor. I don't imagine my character starts combat on the floor with Mace above him. He won't be able to walk against it to "do a force leap" or "follow it with a saber assault" because he will be walking against "hurricane winds" that won't let up until his barrier exhausts first.

Mace clearly wasn't able to push his saber forward until Sidious consciously stopped using his power.

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Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

...

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

...

Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade.

Don't see why Mace would survive for much longer. Even you argued that Sidious and Yoda entered a Force battle when sabers became less of a factor, and they matched each other, but:

Yoda’s knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious. -Mysteries of the Jedi

Mace is not as powerful as Darth Sidious.

In fact, I would change my original stance. Stops hard at Yoda and Sidious, Mace Windu tries deflecting concentrated bursts of lightning/drain/psychokinesis with his face. He resists for quite a few seconds and then his face is overwhelmed.

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#38 Posted by MetalJimmor (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil:

The issue is that your saber skills won't matter that much against the top tiers. Knowing more styles can make you a bit more versatile, but having stronger Force powers gives you the ability to penetrate someone's defenses and lets you augment your speed and strength further than someone with weaker Force abilities. In other words Force Sensitivity not only makes you a better space wizard it also makes you a far better swordsman.

A good example is actually @comicgirl21 and her newest build.

She has the saber skills to compete, but her Force abilities aren't comparable to the top tiers and unlike with my duelist build she didn't take any Force augmentation. Every Force user in the gauntlet should be faster than her by a large degree.

There's also the fact that knowing more forms gives you an advantage in versatility but not overall power. Knowing just a single style at the highest level is still competitive with someone who has mastered every style. The only thing knowing every style gives you is the ability to switch to a style with a form advantage over what your opponent is using, and a form advantage isn't nearly enough to compensate for someone being much faster than you due to the Force.

That is ultimately why I went with a single style at legendary mastery. It saves a huge amount of points that I could spend on abilities that made me better at that single style. Bruce Lee said it best.

"I fear not the man who has practiced a thousand kicks. I fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times."

Also as an aside, I feel more secondary equipment choices would be a big help. Nobody can make a pure jedi/sith that can compete with Yoda or Sidious, but more tools could go a long way. I'd love to try and make a bounty hunter, but there isn't a big selection of tools and tricks that a non-force user would need to compete with top tier jedi.

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#40 Edited by Redshift_Bacon (228 posts) - - Show Bio

Build One (For Fun): Speed-Assassin

- Dual lightsaber wield (6)

- Jedi knight tier (3)

- Senior lightsaber training [Vapaad/Ataru/Djem So](15)

- Force Speed+ForceAugmentation(6)

Result: Stops at Windu, or Yoda. Even though I will out-duel nearly all opponents, and its been shown that Yoda (while a true Master) is not at Sidious's Lightsaber Tier, the difference in Force-Potential is too great to overcome, even relying heavily on Force Speed and Augmentation. The level of Augmentation possible with Jedi Knight tier is simply too low.

Build Two (Serious Time) Evil Super-Wizard [Snoke Build]

- No Weapon

- No lightsaber training

- Jedi Grandmaster tier

- Force Crush, [Tutaminis+Force Lightning=Redirection], Force Drain, Force Speed

Result: I'm too fast for anybody with a Blaster to hit. Early battles will see me vaporizing hordes of Droids with my immense Force Lightning, comparable to Sidious, and draining Squadrons of troops of their very lives using Force Drain. My biggest threat is going to be Aggressive Duelists such as Anakin or Windu, but considering my wide variety of offensive force options, such as the ability to outright Crush weaker Force opponents, and the fact I am not restricted by plot, Canon, or morals, means Immediately entering a fight with any Powerful Force duelist, my first move is to create Distance with Force Speed and use Force Crush to Crush their Lightsaber. From here, in a pure force battle, I Clear up to Son.

Reasoning: Only considering the extremely gifted force users, Yoda's Tutaminis will not help him against Force Drain on my Level, which I should be able to use Passively on multiple opponents within range. I will Match Sidious's Lightning, if not slightly below, so with Tutaminis I should be able to also Redirect. In a tough fight over a long period of time, I should be able to weaken him enough with Force Drain to pull of a surprise "Crushed Yer Throat", or redirect his lightning combined with my own torrents. I could easily use Force Crush on people as well, to crush their internal organs. With my ability to passively drain targets in 1 on 1 combat, and my expertise in Offensive and Defensive force abilities, I should be able to take on even Luke in a very close fight after destroying his Lightsaber. While he will definitely have the upper hand in a pure force-clash, my mastery of Tutaminis and Force Speed, combined with pressure from Force Lightning, and the ability to slowly drain him of his powers while restoring mine, will mean hes going to have a tough battle. If he doesn't end it quickly I will win. I am confident that I would be unable to harm Son using Force Crush or Lightning, Unable to Drain him (assuming he doesnt do that to me), and will probably get caught and forced into the dirt by him. He might find my master over the force Amusing for a mere human.

Using tactics I can win up to Son. Assuming I am an In-Universe Character with no control over the actions of the beast I created, I probably stop at Windu or Yoda realistically. But make no mistake, the potential of using Force Crush to Crush lightsabers is truly one to behold.