CP's Battle Of The Week: MCU Thor vs DCEU Superman

Callouts:

To those who might be interested:

Superman is still too fast for Thor.

Still Superman easily wins, too fast and too strong.

Gallery

You know what I actually think Thor can take it. Even if Thor himself is not fast enough to tag Supes, he does have methods of tagging supes through lightning, which supes is not fast enough to dodge, and by throwing Stormbreaker. Thor's lighting will hurt supes seeing as how it cut through the bifrost and stagger him, while Thor can easily kill supes using Stormbreaker. The biggest problem is BFR, but that's pretty OOC for Supes to use especially when Civilians aren't nearby.

Couple of things I will toss out:

1. Yes, Thor received some incredible (though overblown) energy durability feats. However, his bluntforce durability is still lackluster. We know he was beaten by Thanos - or his was beaten by the Black Order. In either case, he was beaten soundly by people who are less durable and less strong than Superman himself. So if you want to say that Thor can survive Superman's heat vision, go ahead. I'm not arguing for Superman's heat vision.
2. Now for strength. And I am talking just strength. He failed, in a surprise attack, to even make Thanos flinch when he made a surprise attack. I don't see Superman having the same problem.
3. Could Stormbreaker hurt Superman? Probably. Whether Thor can tag him is something else entirely. Thor has absolutely no speed feats, while Superman does. The counter to this is that Superman rarely uses his speed, and that is not true post-JL. He casually used his speed advantage against Steppenwolf. So while is probably able to seriously injure Superman with a Thanos-killing blow, I doubt he can tag him. I also think it's unlikely that an AoE attack would hurt Superman, especially since said AoE seemed to be ground-based and really only hurt fodder.
4. Stormbreaker likely lacks the enchantment Mjolnir has. It is not implausible that Superman could get the hammer away from him.

If it wasn't clear already, I think Superman still wins. As cliche and often oversaid as it is, speed is important. All your power and skill doesn't matter much when you're a statue.

And how will Thor tag him with Stormbreaker? Thanos was able to easily react to the attack. If he can react, Superman can easily dodge it.

It's not even about Thor not being able to tag Clark. He cannot even react to his attacks at this point.

It's 2 completely different tiers were talking about here in terms of speed, which makes this one sided.

Superman still wins in a good fight Thor still doesn't have the speed or the blunt force longevity to pull a majority

@jedixman: Supes can't no sell a lightning strike from Thor, which would give Thor the chance to attack Supes with Stormbreaker. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I could've sworn Thor got a good speed feat in the Wakanda battle, maybe I just need to watch IW again. Not saying it'll be easy or even for a majority, but I think that post IW Thor can pull a win against Superman

Thor's most powerful attacks require wind up. The only time he destroyed the Bifrost with one lightning strike was in Ragnarok when the Bifrost was off; in Thor 1, it required several hammer strikes to do it. If memory serves, Hela damaged the rest of the Bifrost with her spikes.

damn, it’s 50/50, people really don’t know.....it’s a tough battle....Thor is overall More powerful but supermans speed may play a big advantage for superman

I don't think Hela did. The hammer striking thing is my point, it shows how powerful Thor's lightning really is and that after Ragnarok it's the better choice compared to Mjolnir's striking. To be fair none of the 10 hammer strikes it took to break the bifrost in Thor 1 had the lightning supercharge to it so it's not as impressive as say this

I'm not saying Thor can take a 6/10, but I really think with the tools he got in Infinity War he can use his durability to land a lightning strike or 2 on Superman, which will phase him, and use him being stunned to hurt him with Stormbreaker.

Thor’s amp in Infinity War was simply ridiculous. He now has a considerable advantage in strength, durability, striking, power, versatility, and skill over Clark. He is also now in possession of a weapon that can actually pierce Clark. Superman’s sole advantage is his speed, and it is a huge one. Thor himself may appear like a statue to Superman, but Superman may as well be a regular guy punching a statue. Thor’s durability is now more than capable of no selling anything Superman throws at him, and his lightning is fast and versatile enough to eventually tag Superman, throw him off, and give Thor an opportunity to finish Clark with a swing from Stormbreaker.

@kevd4wg: Agreed....how will Superman hurt him too much? Since thor took the full force of a neutron star and then was instant regen after stormbreaker

I don’t think he will bfr either since thor doesn’t really do that

After avengers 4 thor will probably have tons of new feats with stormbreaker....he barley used it in this movie so we may get even more feats for the second

@jedixman: his most recent attack in Infinity war didn’t require any windup and any AOE attack is going to paralyze Clark long enough to oneshot with Stormbreaker

Superman freezes his axe.

Or flies in and gives him a heat vision bath since a tiny star almost killed him.

Still Superman wins.

@georgewbush: we haven’t even seen him use the godplast too, plus he imapled thanos with a single throw, a throw that was slowed down by 6 infinity stones and still impaled him, his lightning blast also sent him flying

I still can't comprehend how everyone keeps assuming Thor's durability is that much just because he was able to withstand a star's blast to create a weapon. He didn't take a single punch from anyone on screen in that entire movie except for when the Dwarf hit him and he went flying as a result--we also know Thor was beaten up by Thanos in the beginning, but we did not see it.

Superman still has this fight. The speed difference is too great. Thor is NOT going to tank Superman's punches. I will not disrespect people who disagree, but this is becoming downright insane that so many MCU people are saying Superman can't hurt Thor.

Like come on. We get it. Thor is extra powerful now due to Stormbreaker. Yes, this is true. But he did not have any new speed feats.

Superman still wins. I have a hard time believing that Thor in character will even use Stormbreaker to cut someone he doesn’t even know. The only reason he used it on Thanos is because he murdered his brother and his entire race.

Even if you include the axe, it’s almost completely useless in this scenario. It will never tag Superman and he can easily just take the weapon from Thor. He can also just freeze it.

Thor has no answer to the massive speed gap. I will say that Superman‘s heat vision is useless in this scenario. Thor can easily tanks it’s heat based off the neutron star feat. However, Superman can still pummel Thor in order to win.

@motm:

Freezing won’t do anything since stormbreaker took 6 infinity stones head on before imapaling thanos with one throw, heat vision won’t either after thor took the full force of a neutron star

@jedixman:

Just wanted to address a few of these;

However, his bluntforce durability is still lackluster. We know he was beaten by Thanos - or his was beaten by the Black Order. In either case, he was beaten soundly by people who are less durable and less strong than Superman himself.

Thanos is above the Hulk with regards to pure physicals, I don't think it's fair to say he is less durable or weaker than Superman when the guy he is clearly superior too has striking and durability feats in the same tier as Clark. Thanos was clearly stronger than Thor as well, his IW lifting feats easily being in the same tier as the Man of Steel.

Even if you don't want to accept that point Thanos already had the power stone when he attacked the Asgardian ship, it's likely he used it.

Now for strength. And I am talking just strength. He failed, in a surprise attack, to even make Thanos flinch when he made a surprise attack. I don't see Superman having the same problem.

That's a feat for Thanos given we already know Thor (without lightning enhancement) already has high tier striking;

Thor has absolutely no speed feats, while Superman does.

Thor has plenty. You can argue they aren't sufficient to tag Clark but ignoring the fact he's got a lot of reaction feats helps no one.

The counter to this is that Superman rarely uses his speed, and that is not true post-JL. He casually used his speed advantage against Steppenwolf. So while is probably able to seriously injure Superman with a Thanos-killing blow,

I don't disagree with this, this should be the central argument for this thread.

I also think it's unlikely that an AoE attack would hurt Superman, especially since said AoE seemed to be ground-based and really only hurt fodder.

Thor's AOE seem to be his most powerful attacks though, whether it's his attack on Hela (not fodder) or the smackdown on the outriders it's clear that's quite a step above his regular blasts.

For his lightning Cloak it destroyed a massive outrider ship as he flew past/through it so I don't think saying it's just fodder works for that anymore either.

Stormbreaker likely lacks the enchantment Mjolnir has. It is not implausible that Superman could get the hammer away from him.

He can probably lift it but Thor was recalling it to his hand same as Mjlonir, if he has it he only has it momentarily.

And how will Thor tag him with Stormbreaker? Thanos was able to easily react to the attack. If he can react, Superman can easily dodge it.

When was this? IIRC Thor reacted to the gauntlet blast, not vice versa.

Thor still isn't tagging him in a million years, still isn't durable enough to face superman and still not strong enough to hurt him. And no, fodder hurting lightning is doing nothing when he already tanked a much more powerful electrical blast from doomsday

He probably just rips stormbreaker from thor's hands and beats him with it

That has literally nothing to do with Superman covering it in ice and rendering it frozen and useless. Or he just freezes Thor.

And no that was not the "full force of a neutron star" lol. He gets melted by extended heat vision. Or gets his head punched off.

Superman still easily wins, can't tag him and he gets two shotted with punches.

Surprise surprise^^ dammefavour is still a troll

@buildhare: not really thor was gearing up to throw the hammer before thanos turned around. also, I think thor was pretty weak without the hammer. he got beat pretty easily. Honestly, I think the russos kind of ignored ragnorak's whole "the power lies in you" stuff and went with giving thor a new weapon.

Again, there is no proof that Thor got a speed increase in IW. With that being said, I turn everyone's attention to Age of Ultron and Justice League.

In AoU, Quicksilver, who is often known to be slower than Flash, moved so fast that Thor was in slow motion.

In Justice League, Superman (along with Flash) moved so fast everyone else were literally frozen in mid air.

Thor will begin to swing Stormbreaker and Superman will dodge it, then punch Thor and send him flying. Thor will get up try the same thing or call lightning. Superman, again way faster than him, will swing again. And again. And again. And again. The only way Thor hits Superman is if the writer/director ads some PIS and lets Superman make a mistake.

@motm:

That makes no sense at all

Infinity stones>supemans breath

Neutron star> literally everything suoerman has ever done

Thor can BFR Superman with the Bifrost actually. That is more effective than any way Superman could BFR him

I do not see Superman's head budging from attacks made by Spider-Man, Cap, or Iron Man. Iron Man drew blood.

Possible, but unclear. We also know that the likes of Cap, Draw, Mantis, Iron Man, and Star-Lord have survived blasts from the Power Stone.

Not when you consider the fact that he was hurt by much, much weaker characters.

I'm waiting to hear what those are. We know he can't dodge bullets.

His best speed feat that I can recall is his ability to perceive, though fail to tag, Quicksilver.

I'd have to check again, but I believe he outright destroyed those ships with Stormbreaker, not the lightning cloak.

Well, I'm glad to see you're not one of those who belief the Stormbreaker is enchanted. And yes, he can recall it, but then it might become a battle of strength. I cannot say for certain how that would go.

I'd have to check again. I can't find the scene right now.

Superman still takes this easily. He's still too strong and too fast.

Thor is still a statue and a statue will definitely get the special limited edition Superman Neck Snap™. If Thor throwing an axe to Thanos chest is an in-character feat then so is Superman's Neck Snapping™ feat.

If Thor has a "neutron star" level duarability, which is just surviving a beam of heat then Superman has "black hole" level durability.

Black hole >>>>>>>> Neutron star.

They're both ridiculous when fans wank these feats but they're an on-screen feat and Superman still beats the hell out of Thor.

There's also bad power scaling and visual inconsistencies in IW so scaling with other characters like Hulk for example is just nonsense.

@zepta_pon:

Since when is that a in character feat? Suoerman did it because he had no other choice, it’s literally normal for Thor to kill

@theredhood44: Who said that this version of Superman don't kill? Are we gonna deny Superman killing Zod now>

Still Superman.

@zepta_pon:

He only killed him because he needed to, no ones denying that’s a feat but it’s not in character, besides, the lightning cloak will throw him off, it’s also very not in character for him to do that

@theredhood44: It is an in-character feat. Superman has dealt with much more devastating aoe lightning before. It won't affect Superman.

@kevd4wg said:

@jedixman said:

@kevd4wg said:

@jedixman: Supes can't no sell a lightning strike from Thor, which would give Thor the chance to attack Supes with Stormbreaker. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I could've sworn Thor got a good speed feat in the Wakanda battle, maybe I just need to watch IW again. Not saying it'll be easy or even for a majority, but I think that post IW Thor can pull a win against Superman

Thor's most powerful attacks require wind up. The only time he destroyed the Bifrost with one lightning strike was in Ragnarok when the Bifrost was off; in Thor 1, it required several hammer strikes to do it. If memory serves, Hela damaged the rest of the Bifrost with her spikes.

I don't think Hela did. The hammer striking thing is my point, it shows how powerful Thor's lightning really is and that after Ragnarok it's the better choice compared to Mjolnir's striking. To be fair none of the 10 hammer strikes it took to break the bifrost in Thor 1 had the lightning supercharge to it so it's not as impressive as say this

I'm not saying Thor can take a 6/10, but I really think with the tools he got in Infinity War he can use his durability to land a lightning strike or 2 on Superman, which will phase him, and use him being stunned to hurt him with Stormbreaker.

You are still assuming he can tag Superman when much faster characters have failed.

Thor winds up for an attack - any attack - with his hammer. This happens.

I'm backing Superman due to speed and strength.

@jedixman said:

@kevd4wg said:

@jedixman said:

@kevd4wg said:

@jedixman: Supes can't no sell a lightning strike from Thor, which would give Thor the chance to attack Supes with Stormbreaker. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I could've sworn Thor got a good speed feat in the Wakanda battle, maybe I just need to watch IW again. Not saying it'll be easy or even for a majority, but I think that post IW Thor can pull a win against Superman

Thor's most powerful attacks require wind up. The only time he destroyed the Bifrost with one lightning strike was in Ragnarok when the Bifrost was off; in Thor 1, it required several hammer strikes to do it. If memory serves, Hela damaged the rest of the Bifrost with her spikes.

I don't think Hela did. The hammer striking thing is my point, it shows how powerful Thor's lightning really is and that after Ragnarok it's the better choice compared to Mjolnir's striking. To be fair none of the 10 hammer strikes it took to break the bifrost in Thor 1 had the lightning supercharge to it so it's not as impressive as say this

I'm not saying Thor can take a 6/10, but I really think with the tools he got in Infinity War he can use his durability to land a lightning strike or 2 on Superman, which will phase him, and use him being stunned to hurt him with Stormbreaker.

You are still assuming he can tag Superman when much faster characters have failed.

Thor winds up for an attack - any attack - with his hammer. This happens.

I was not implying Thor would use his striking, but rather showing how powerful Thor's lightning is and that it is enough to stagger Supes. Of course as someone pointed out the Bifrost makes it nigh-impossible for Supes to BFR Thor

Still Superman

@motm: ....okay..now I know your trolling and seriously low balling.....

It is a VERY close fight, and it can go either way, as Superman's only real advantage is his speed, if he decides to blitz right of the bath he could try to take Stormbreaker from Thor and use it against him, since i don't think he can hurt him in any other way, but he's probably not strong enough to take it out of Thor's grasp.

We know since the first Avengers movie that his hand strength alone was in the thousand ton range, and he was weakened while doing this:

Considering that Thor has got a lot more stronger, Superman would struggle to even take Stormbreaker, in wich moment he could be tagged by Thor's lightning, and he's not no-selling one of those. Thor then would use this oportunity to strike Superman in the head and win.

Supermans strength can shift tectonic plates.....StormBreaker boost isn't enough to deal with that combined with supes speed

Thor realizes he cant hit him....pulls back into the air to try and rain down some lightning to keep Clark off him....

Clark braces a bit and then proceeds to

....Then finishes it off with a Kurse style pummelling to the face

@jedixman:

I do not see Superman's head budging from attacks made by Spider-Man, Cap, or Iron Man.

So are you saying it's PIS or Cap and Spiderman hit harder than Thor? I don't think either really help your argument here.

Possible, but unclear. We also know that the likes of Cap, Draw, Mantis, Iron Man, and Star-Lord have survived blasts from the Power Stone.

He varied it's power greatly, I think that was clear. We have him knocking down Cap and Buck (but not knocking them out), knocking out Drax and the guardians, beginning to kill Thor, sending Iron Man through a massive ship with a hit and surface wiping a large chunk of a moon. He used a different level of power for everything regarding the power stone.

Not when you consider the fact that he was hurt by much, much weaker characters.

All they did was move him though, Spider-Man didn't hurt him at all and neither did Cap. It's still PIS that he was moved but he wasn't phased by the titan team (short of Tony) at all physically.

I don't consider Tony getting a drop of blood a low showing either, given he's a high tier himself at this point and had to put in an absurd amount of effort for even that result.

I'm waiting to hear what those are.

1. Blocked the Destroyer beams
2. Dodges the jet wing Hulk throws at him
3. Deflected multiple chitauri shots
4. Dodges Aether attacks
5. Deflects an Ultron bot attack without looking
6. Reacts to Hela's blades point blank

That's from memory, he has more.

We know he can't dodge bullets.

Based on his other feats I don't think it's beyond him to jump out of the way. Was he actually trying to dodge it there?

His best speed feat that I can recall is his ability to perceive, though fail to tag, Quicksilver.

I would agree.

I'd have to check again, but I believe he outright destroyed those ships with Stormbreaker, not the lightning cloak.

I did check. He flies through it with the cloak on (it's on a half second before as he flies over outriders, and again when he comes out) and there are explosions all over the ship. I don't doubt he could destroy one just with Stormbreaker but he was using the cloak there.

Well, I'm glad to see you're not one of those who belief the Stormbreaker is enchanted. And yes, he can recall it, but then it might become a battle of strength. I cannot say for certain how that would go.

True, but if they should get locked in a contest of strength Thor can center lightning blasts on himself;

Due to that I don't think it's feasible for Superman to win a grapple.

I'd have to check again. I can't find the scene right now.

Thanos fired first but it was clearly Thor's next move, doesn't matter regardless as it'd basically be the same as deflecting blasts from the destroyer.

Thor has zero avenues to win this fight from what we know.

Thor has been beaten into submission by enemies significantly weaker than Superman. Superman more than has the strength to physically beat Thor unconscious relatively easy. Thor on the other hand has NEVER shown the strength required to harm someone comparable to Superman let alone Superman himself. What is also working against him, is that even while being in a weakened state we have seen Superman absolutely clobbered by enemies far stronger than Thor and he has never been injured anywhere to the extent Thor has by weaker. Physically I don't believe Thor can even harm Superman.

Thor's best option would be to hit him with his hammer. I don't think this will ever happen as the way superman perceives Thor he may as well be standing still. One thing about Superman that people missed (among many other nuances in MOS and other DCEU films) is that he always fights at super speeds. I didn't notice these things at first until it was pointed out by VFX director John Desjardin. He was interviewed on the challenges of bringing the visuals of the film to life and he highlighted the attack on smallville. He detailed depicting the fight so that the audience could make out what was going on even though the Kryptonians were fighting at the speed of sound and faster. He used little tricks so the viewer would know how fast they were moving while still being able to make out what they are doing.

1.) They added sonic cones and shockwave burst to their fist swings to indicate they were breaking the sound barrier. You really can see this on almost every punch they throw

2.) When Clark punches faster than his average speed the edge of his fist glows and there is a flash of light when his fist makes contact. In Man Of Steel this happens several times when he fights Zod and he hits him with haymakers, and it is most obvious in Justice League. When he stands over steppanwolf and punches him there is a shockwave and flash of light when the punch makes contact.

Here is a quote from the interview: "We layered a couple of other things on top of that," adds Desjardin. "One, if there's a punch being thrown, you can lose the arm real fast if it's too fast. So a lot of times the arm of a CG character may be going just slightly faster than a human's - we put a sonic boom-type signature around the forearm and we might put a little heat luminance on the leading edge surfaces of the fist. It puts an idea in your brain that it's moving really, really fast even if it isn't."

Thor has never exhibited this type of physical power and speed before, I don't see how he isn't entirely overwhelmed here.

I am saying that the Russos disregarded Ragnarok and decided to make Thor, without the hammer, decidedly weaker than he was with the hammer. If we consider Infinity War to be higher on the scale of continuity (which it has shown to be given that it also retconned Homecoming's statement regarding the timeline), then it's hard to consider Ragnarok's feats as legitimate.

1. Blocked the Destroyer beams
2. Dodges the jet wing Hulk throws at him
3. Deflected multiple chitauri shots
4. Dodges Aether attacks
5. Deflects an Ultron bot attack without looking
6. Reacts to Hela's blades point blank

I don't think dodging the wing is particularly impressive, but fine, those are good feats. I don't think any of those come close to what we saw from Superman, though. We saw him casually dodge Cyborg's rocket, catch Batman's gas pellet, and fodderize Steppenwolf through speed alone after he thrashed the other leaguers - namely Wonder Woman, who got an impressive speed feat herself earlier in the movie.

I don't think too highly of the Chitauri feats, though. If I recall, the likes of Widow, Hawkeye, and also dodged and reacted to Chitauri weapons. Same for the Ultron bot weapons; hell, Cap dodged the real Ultron's beams. This is not to say that they are bad feats for Cap, but I don't think feats done by a super soldier should be comparable to a high-tier (high-tiers for movies, anyway).

Based on his other feats I don't think it's beyond him to jump out of the way. Was he actually trying to dodge it there?

It looks like he's trying to take off. He's bending at the knees like he usually does.

True, but if they should get locked in a contest of strength Thor can center lightning blasts on himself;

True, but that wasn't particularly fast. Hela had time to look up and gasp before getting hit. I do not doubt that Superman could easily escape the blast.

@jedixman:

True, but if they should get locked in a contest of strength Thor can center lightning blasts on himself;

There is zero chance of this happening if we are going off of what we have been shown. Three times Thor has been restrained and unable to free himself under his own power. Ebony Maw wrapped him in metal and he couldn't escape, neither could he when restrained by cables in ragnorak and he struggled mightily to escape from the pod on the helicarrier in Avengers.

I think its safe to say he would never be locked in a contest of strength with Superman who could effortlessly free himself from Thor if he somehow managed to grab him. Superman as early as MOS was able to break free from the enormous tentacles of the world engine while being poisoned by the atmosphere it was creating. There is no way Thor can restrain him long enough to hit him with that large bolt.

Ah, good point.

How does Thor tag him? Genuine question. Thor outclasses Superman in every way except speed, but that's the ultimate factor here.

@jedixman:

I am saying that the Russos disregarded Ragnarok and decided to make Thor, without the hammer, decidedly weaker than he was with the hammer. If we consider Infinity War to be higher on the scale of continuity (which it has shown to be given that it also retconned Homecoming's statement regarding the timeline), then it's hard to consider Ragnarok's feats as legitimate.

Ignoring that doing so would again make Thor weaker than Cap/Spider-Man there's little to nothing to suggest this was their intent. They kept all the other stuff (i.e cloak, thunder mode etc.) but they nerfed Thor's striking to street? Hulk in the same scene was only moving Thanos a couple of meters back with his strikes (the same Hulk with the Leviathan feat). Does this mean that's retconned now and Hulk is also street?

I can't really see what you're going for on this particular point, obviously it's still valid. Comparing it to the Homecoming retcon (something they've spoken publicly about being a mistake, on Sony's end) which was a single frame of homecoming is extremely questionable logic.

I don't think dodging the wing is particularly impressive, but fine, those are good feats. I don't think any of those come close to what we saw from Superman, though.

I don't think that either, Superman is still faster. Just countering the idea he doesn't have good speed feats. Although this;

catch Batman's gas pellet,

...isn't a good Superman feat.

I don't think too highly of the Chitauri feats, though. If I recall, the likes of Widow, Hawkeye, and also dodged and reacted to Chitauri weapons.

I can't remember them reacting to the blasts, I especially doubt it given Cap failed to.

Same for the Ultron bot weapons; hell, Cap dodged the real Ultron's beams. This is not to say that they are bad feats for Cap, but I don't think feats done by a super soldier should be comparable to a high-tier (high-tiers for movies, anyway).

I don't think they are. Cap couldn't dodge the chitauri blast, Thor can deflect multiple with his hammer. Cap can react to Ultrons beams (sometimes, he did get hit later) but Thor can do similar without looking.

I think Thor has been portrayed on a different level in that regard.

It looks like he's trying to take off. He's bending at the knees like he usually does.

Does he? He just spins his hammer typically;

He only started doing the Superman-esque flying in Infinity War.

True, but that wasn't particularly fast. Hela had time to look up and gasp before getting hit. I do not doubt that Superman could easily escape the blast.

He could dodge it if he knew what to expect but if he just sees a flash of light in the clouds why would he move? Especially when in this scenario he's already focused on getting Stormbreaker out of Thor's hands.

Even if he can lightning time, flying out of the way means he loses the grapple and Thor keeps the hammer. It's a win for Odison either way.