Count Dooku x2 vs Yoda

The notion of Yoda beating two Dookus at the same time when only one gave him issues is beyond laughable.

Dooku was definitely not equal to Yoda.

Yoda's fight with Sidious was a ''very different'' experience than his fight with Dooku.

''Duelling with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious was a very different experience to fighting Dooku.''

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Part 21 (2014)

Sidious lol-stomps Dooku via hologram.

Dooku was ''no match'' for Yoda in the duel.

Source: Attack of the Clones Graphic Novel (2002)

@mattyboi:

The man who created the whole scene, George Lucas, confirmed that the power struggle was meant to emphasize their equality

Thus, Attack of the Clones portrays them as equals, at least in terms of power. As far as the duel itself, you can plainly see that it was more or less even:

So the scene itself depicts Dooku & Yoda stalemating in the Force, and we know from the people behind its creation that such was the intent. I think it's obvious that Yoda got stronger throughout the Clone Wars (clearly Sidious is more powerful than Dooku) but it's no significant improvement. Canonically, as shown by the movies, Dooku, Sidious & Yoda are all in the same boat.

@erkan12:

I'm not going to to issue a rebuttal to your insertion into our discussion, since we have been over this a thousand times in a thousand different threads, and all your debates with me span multiple pages and consist of the same recycled arguments. You have no new material, and aren't going to change your mind. Neither will I. So it's pointless.

@lord_tenebrous:

Thus, Attack of the Clones portrays them as equals, at least in terms of power. As far as the duel itself, you can plainly see that it was more or less even:

Like how you cut out the scenes where it shows Dooku clearly struggling, and being overwhelmed, then having to run away. Canon comics state Dooku was outmatched too.

So the scene itself depicts Dooku & Yoda stalemating in the Force, and we know from the people behind its creation that such was the intent. I think it's obvious that Yoda got stronger throughout the Clone Wars (clearly Sidious is more powerful than Dooku) but it's no significant improvement. Canonically, as shown by the movies, Dooku, Sidious & Yoda are all in the same boat.

LOL Dooku is never stalemating Yoda in the force. Dooku is literal fodder to Sidious, who stomped him as a hologram, and Yoda stalemated this power.

Yeah, Dooku's definitely in the same boat as this guy, lol.

Dooku is being extremely highballed, using legends doesnt play in his favor whatsoever

@mattyboi:

Like how you cut out the scenes where it shows Dooku clearly struggling, and being overwhelmed,

Those scenes do not exist. Please, post them. Yoda repeatedly attacks Dooku, who disrupts his momentum by shifting to the side. Yoda over and over fails to force Dooku back, and his every move is parried. And vice versa.

then having to run away.

After the lengthy fight in which they were evenly matched.

Canon comics state Dooku was outmatched too

Old comic says he was, and also fabricates an entirely different duel wherein Dooku fights with two blades, has his attacks perfectly stonewalled and is then disarmed.

Except Dooku did not attack Yoda with all his might and be effortlessly stonewalled. He did not duel with two blades, he wasn't disarmed, and he was able to keep pace with Yoda's awesome attack. For nearly 40 seconds, in fact.

LOL Dooku is never stalemating Yoda in the force.

Well he did:

"I started out doing it fairly conservatively where he just came and fought, that really didn't work. And it was actually uh... much of the people sort of in editorial were saying 'y'know we gotta make more out of this, you gotta use Jedi powers, you gotta, you can't just go right into the swordfight.' So, I decided to go back to the Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at each other even though I knew they were equals of each other, so it was a hopeless gesture, they would have figured that out in two seconds. For the audience it actually, it's nice for them to go through this process of everyone throwing everything around."

-- George Lucas

Dooku is literal fodder to Sidious, who stomped him as a hologram,

A) Sidious didn't stomp Dooku. He strangled him, which is just the dark side equivalent of Yoda pushing Sidious. All this demonstrates is that Sidious is more powerful than Dooku, not that he's much more powerful.

B) This was a circumstantially enraged Sidious, so it's an unusable showing anyway:

It's like using enraged TPM Kenobi competing with Maul to argue that regular TPM Kenobi is comparable to Maul, or using enraged TCW Maul competing with Sidious to argue that regular TCW Maul is comparable to Sidious, or using enraged Ventress strangling Anakin & Obi-Wan to argue that regular Ventress is more powerful than Obi-Wan & Anakin, etc.

and Yoda stalemated this power.

Yoda overpowered that power*

How does Yoda fight 2 Dookus?

Does Dooku clone himself?

Does Future Dooku go back in time? 😆

In legends continuity, Dooku did use arcane powers to create a clone of himself with about half his own strength. Clone Dooku defeated Obi-Wan, dueled Anakin and lost when the latter flew into a rage.

@erkan12:

Dooku was definitely not equal to Yoda.

I agree. Saying Dooku was equal to Yoda when the former had to make a tactical retreat against the latter is a stretch.

Yoda's fight with Sidious was a ''very different'' experience than his fight with Dooku.

Only indicates that Sidious is more powerful than Dooku which we all already know

Sidious lol-stomps Dooku via hologram.

He force choked Dooku when the latter wasn't expecting it, and probably wasn't actively trying to resist so as to not infuriate his master. So since Ventress force choked both Anakin and Kenobi at the same time, it means she could lol-stomp them?

@mattyboi:

Like how you cut out the scenes where it shows Dooku clearly struggling, and being overwhelmed, then having to run away. Canon comics state Dooku was outmatched too.

There are no such scenes. The movies clearly portray Dooku as being able to hold his own against Yoda for a good 40 seconds, and had he not made a tactical retreat, they would've fought for even longer.

LOL Dooku is never stalemating Yoda in the force. Dooku is literal fodder to Sidious, who stomped him as a hologram, and Yoda stalemated this power.

Cool, a Dooku who was caught off guard and probably wasn't even trying to proactively resist Sidious is now fodder to him? Context matters. Ventress choked Kenobi and Anakin at the same time, so does that mean Anakin and Kenobi are fodder to her? Or are you suggesting Dooku and Ventress are both fodder to Savage?

Yeah, Dooku's definitely in the same boat as this guy, lol.

Sidious choking Dooku when Dooku was not expecting it is similar to Yoda force pushing Sidious back. By your logic, Sidious should now be fodder to Yoda. Being able to force choke someone in no way shows any superiority at all, unless you want to suggest that Savage>Ventress+Dooku and Ventress>Anakin+Obi-Wan.

Under those stipulations with Dooku clone only half power, I could see Yoda winning.

@lord_tenebrous:

Those scenes do not exist. Please, post them. Yoda repeatedly attacks Dooku, who disrupts his momentum by shifting to the side. Yoda over and over fails to force Dooku back, and his every move is parried. And vice versa.

https://youtu.be/3UUQIIOO8RM?t=129 Just pause it and look at his face, he's clearly struggling there and Yoda is clearly winning.

After the lengthy fight in which they were evenly matched.

Why would he have to run away then?

Old comic says he was, and also fabricates an entirely different duel wherein Dooku fights with two blades, has his attacks perfectly stonewalled and is then disarmed.

That comic is still canon though.

Well he did:

Him throwing lightning at Yoda then getting it shot back isn't stalemating, it means his lightning got overpowered. Not sure how this is a force clash though, all Yoda did was shoot back the lightning casually(something he couldnt do against Sidious).

A) Sidious didn't stomp Dooku. He strangled him, which is just the dark side equivalent of Yoda pushing Sidious. All this demonstrates is that Sidious is more powerful than Dooku, not that he's much more powerful.

Lol no. Sidious was strangling him while as a hologram, that definitely counts as stomping Dooku. If he was right infront of Dooku I can maybe see your point, but this was across the galaxyand that's definitely not equal to a force push lol.

B) This was a circumstantially enraged Sidious, so it's an unusable showing anyway:

Sidious was enraged when he fought Yoda so I don't see your point here, and in your own words he was still overpowered by Yoda.

It's like using enraged TPM Kenobi competing with Maul to argue that regular TPM Kenobi is comparable to Maul, or using enraged TCW Maul competing with Sidious to argue that regular TCW Maul is comparable to Sidious, or using enraged Ventress strangling Anakin & Obi-Wan to argue that regular Ventress is more powerful than Obi-Wan & Anakin, etc.

Maul never competed with Sidious, Sidious was toying with Maul. The ventress argument wont work since she got dominated by Anakin, she was only able to strangle them due to catching them off guard.

@red12789:

There are no such scenes. The movies clearly portray Dooku as being able to hold his own against Yoda for a good 40 seconds, and had he not made a tactical retreat, they would've fought for even longer.

https://youtu.be/3UUQIIOO8RM?t=129 Just pause it and look at his face, he's clearly struggling there and Yoda is clearly winning.

Cool, a Dooku who was caught off guard and probably wasn't even trying to proactively resist Sidious is now fodder to him? Context matters. Ventress choked Kenobi and Anakin at the same time, so does that mean Anakin and Kenobi are fodder to her? Or are you suggesting Dooku and Ventress are both fodder to Savage?

Kenobi and Anakin had thought they beat Ventress and weren't expecting her to suddenly attack them with the force. Dooku and Ventress were fighting when Savage choked them by surprise. Both of those you just listed are completely different from Sidious choking Dooku from literally across the galaxy, and Sidious was moving his hand very slowly so he had a lot of time to react and resist it yet he couldn't.

Sidious choking Dooku when Dooku was not expecting it is similar to Yoda force pushing Sidious back. By your logic, Sidious should now be fodder to Yoda. Being able to force choke someone in no way shows any superiority at all, unless you want to suggest that Savage>Ventress+Dooku and Ventress>Anakin+Obi-Wan.

Same as above. The stuff you showed doesn't apply to Sidious choking Dooku. A force push can work on much stronger opponents, while a force choke only works if you're stronger than the person, or catch them off guard.

@mattyboi:

https://youtu.be/3UUQIIOO8RM?t=129 Just pause it and look at his face, he's clearly struggling there and Yoda is clearly winning.

Yes he is struggling, but is should be noted that Dooku had already fought through 2 mid tier opponents in Kenobi and Anakin, so he isn't fresh. He even slumps down and catches his breath after defeating Anakin. I never suggested Yoda and Dooku were equals, just that Dooku could hold his own against Yoda, which he already did in AOTC and on Vjun.

Kenobi and Anakin had thought they beat Ventress and weren't expecting her to suddenly attack them with the force. Dooku and Ventress were fighting when Savage choked them by surprise.

And how would Dooku expect his master to choke him, even though he thought he was an important asset for Sidious?

Both of those you just listed are completely different from Sidious choking Dooku from literally across the galaxy, and Sidious was moving his hand very slowly so he had a lot of time to react and resist it yet he couldn't.

Sidious wasn't moving his hand very slowly, and Dooku was looking at his face, so how is he supposed to notice his hand? He looked evidently surprised when choked, and if he tried to resist, he would just infuriate his already enraged master more.

Same as above. The stuff you showed doesn't apply to Sidious choking Dooku. A force push can work on much stronger opponents, while a force choke only works if you're stronger than the person, or catch them off guard.

Dooku was caught off-guard as well, and he probably wasn't trying to resist. I know the examples I've shown above aren't exactly the same as Dooku being choked by Sidious from a hologram, but they do prove that force chokes, given the context, do work even if you're using it on a superior opponent. Hence, Sidious easily force-choking someone who was inferior to him in Dooku, who wasn't trying to resist and was caught off guard in no way proves he is fodder to Sidious.

@mattyboi:

https://youtu.be/3UUQIIOO8RM?t=129 Just pause it and look at his face, he's clearly struggling there

You mean here? Dooku's facial expression is as stoic as always:

He is not shown as overly struggling, if at all, though the actor's face does show he's exerting a little effort when extremely old Christopher Lee stretches forward to perform a maneuver.

and Yoda is clearly winning.

Nowhere is Yoda shown winning at this point in the duel:

Why would he have to run away then?

Maybe because reinforcements would be arriving in moments, as they did shortly after he broke off. Maybe because he realized he wasn't going to win the fight, especially in his condition. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that they were closely matched in the lengthy duel beforehand.

That comic is still canon though.

Everything before 2014 was wiped, I haven't seen any statements making that 2002 comic an exception. Even if it was canon, it still conflicts with the movie and is unusable.

Him throwing lightning at Yoda then getting it shot back isn't stalemating, it means his lightning got overpowered.

It is a stalemate. Dooku attacked Yoda with a quick burst of lightning. Yoda caught the blast, and attacked Dooku with it, and Dooku deflected it away.

Not sure how this is a force clash though, all Yoda did was shoot back the lightning casually

It wasn't casual. You can see the strain in his arm as he slowly pushes forward. And this interpretation aligns perfectly with what we know Lucas intended when he created the scene, and thus, it is the correct one.

(something he couldnt do against Sidious).

Sidious never fired a quick burst of lightning at a prepared Yoda, like Dooku did. He caught Yoda by surprise initially, then hit him with a prolonged burst that Yoda was overpowering.

Lol no. Sidious was strangling him while as a hologram, that definitely counts as stomping Dooku. If he was right infront of Dooku I can maybe see your point, but this was across the galaxyand that's definitely not equal to a force push lol.

Why is that relevant? The Force is everywhere, in everything. it's not local. Force users draw on its power through their connection to the Force, which is everywhere and in everything. Including Dooku & his location.

Sidious was enraged when he fought Yoda so I don't see your point here, and in your own words he was still overpowered by Yoda.

Sidious wasn't enraged. He was confident, sadistic, and at times frustrated or fearful. Maul was full on incensed.

Maul never competed with Sidious,

Sure he did. He attacked Sidious, forced him back, and was kicked away. Sidious then attacked Maul, forced him back, and was kicked away. Then they clashed in a bladelock, which Sidious won. After becoming circumstantially enraged, Maul was able to jump from being fodder to Sidious to being nearly equal to him. Likewise, when TPM Kenobi became circumstantially enraged, he jumped from being fodder to Maul to being equal to or better than him.

Sidious was toying with Maul.

Before and after, yes.

The ventress argument wont work since she got dominated by Anakin,

A non enraged Ventress was dominated by Anakin.

she was only able to strangle them due to catching them off guard.

I don't think that's a supported stance. She just flat out dominated them, and they were powerless against her. Even if you were right, the same could be said of Dooku.

@lord_tenebrous:

He is not shown as overly struggling, if at all, though the actor's face does show he's exerting a little effort when extremely old Christopher Lee stretches forward to perform a maneuver.

That's done on purpose to make you see he's struggling, he never struggled like that against Kenobi or Anakin.

Nowhere is Yoda shown winning at this point in the duel:

He's not even close to Dooku there.

Maybe because reinforcements would be arriving in moments, as they did shortly after he broke off. Maybe because he realized he wasn't going to win the fight, especially in his condition. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that they were closely matched in the lengthy duel beforehand.

He'd only have to run if he was outmatched(like the canon comic stated).

Everything before 2014 was wiped, I haven't seen any statements making that 2002 comic an exception. Even if it was canon, it still conflicts with the movie and is unusable.

Only EU was wiped. Even in the novels Yoda effortlessly defended Dooku's blows. It's still usable since its canon.

It is a stalemate. Dooku attacked Yoda with a quick burst of lightning. Yoda caught the blast, and attacked Dooku with it, and Dooku deflected it away.

Yoda didn't use any of his own force power though, he only deflected Dooku's force power back at him, which proves Yoda is superior there.

It wasn't casual. You can see the strain in his arm as he slowly pushes forward. And this interpretation aligns perfectly with what we know Lucas intended when he created the scene, and thus, it is the correct one.

There's literally no struggle there, he effortlessly shot the blast back.

Sidious never fired a quick burst of lightning at a prepared Yoda, like Dooku did. He caught Yoda by surprise initially, then hit him with a prolonged burst that Yoda was overpowering.

Yoda was actually struggling to overpower it, against Dooku he casually overpowered the blast.

Why is that relevant? The Force is everywhere, in everything. it's not local. Force users draw on its power through their connection to the Force, which is everywhere and in everything. Including Dooku & his location.

It would be much harder to do so through hologram, since he's not even there. Yet he still overpowered Dooku like this.

Sidious wasn't enraged. He was confident, sadistic, and at times frustrated or fearful. Maul was full on incensed.

He was clearly enraged when he fought Yoda, his face shows this.

Sure he did. He attacked Sidious, forced him back, and was kicked away. Sidious then attacked Maul, forced him back, and was kicked away. Then they clashed in a bladelock, which Sidious won. After becoming circumstantially enraged, Maul was able to jump from being fodder to Sidious to being nearly equal to him. Likewise, when TPM Kenobi became circumstantially enraged, he jumped from being fodder to Maul to being equal to or better than him.

Sidious was literally toying with Maul, then easily overpowered him again and dominated him.

I don't think that's a supported stance. She just flat out dominated them, and they were powerless against her. Even if you were right, the same could be said of Dooku.

No, they literally thought they won the duel and had their blades to her face, they were caught off guard which is shown. The same thing cannot be said of Dooku since he had much time to react and resist the force choke.

@red12789:

Yes he is struggling, but is should be noted that Dooku had already fought through 2 mid tier opponents in Kenobi and Anakin, so he isn't fresh. He even slumps down and catches his breath after defeating Anakin. I never suggested Yoda and Dooku were equals, just that Dooku could hold his own against Yoda, which he already did in AOTC and on Vjun.

Dooku had already stomped Kenobi and Anakin, he wasn't that tired when he fought Yoda.

And how would Dooku expect his master to choke him, even though he thought he was an important asset for Sidious?

Because he got Sidious mad, and he saw his hand slowly move to him.

Sidious wasn't moving his hand very slowly, and Dooku was looking at his face, so how is he supposed to notice his hand? He looked evidently surprised when choked, and if he tried to resist, he would just infuriate his already enraged master more.

Dooku must have very bad peripheral vision then, he should definitely be able to see his hand moving, even when looking at his face. He looked surprised because he was getting overpowered. He would've tried to resist if he could, but he was clearly overpowered there.

Dooku was caught off-guard as well, and he probably wasn't trying to resist. I know the examples I've shown above aren't exactly the same as Dooku being choked by Sidious from a hologram, but they do prove that force chokes, given the context, do work even if you're using it on a superior opponent. Hence, Sidious easily force-choking someone who was inferior to him in Dooku, who wasn't trying to resist and was caught off guard in no way proves he is fodder to Sidious.

Again Dooku had a lot of time to resist.

I love how people just ignore the fact Dooku had just fought with Anakin and Obi-Wan before Yoda arrived. I don't even have to get into why Dooku would be so effected by this. We already know how his style's lack of kinetic emphasis effects his stamina over time. Then he stalemates Yoda for 90% of their duel and people are still saying Dooku is being highballed. On top of that, George's own intention was to portray them as equals in the force and this is backed up by Dooku himself saying that this OBVIOUSLY cannot be decided in a contest of the force but by their skills with a lightsaber. Yoda might as well be outright agreeing with him since he never said anything to suggest otherwise or retort and instead followed up with Dooku by igniting his own saber, as if to say "you're right, let's begin".

Even if Yoda is > Dooku, which we all already know, how in hell is he that much above him to the point where he can beat 2 of him at the same time?

Absolutely ridiculous.

@mattyboi:

Dooku must have very bad peripheral vision then, he should definitely be able to see his hand moving, even when looking at his face. He looked surprised because he was getting overpowered. He would've tried to resist if he could, but he was clearly overpowered there

You do realise moving a hand can mean anything? It could be a gesture, not a force choke. That would be such a stretch of the imagination. Nobody would've expected that unless they've been force choked by Sidious several times already over holocall midway into Sidious's own talking. Dooku was focusing on Sidious's face because he was being spoken to and lectured. Then even if his peripheral vision saw it, he was still focusing on the words coming out of his master's mouth and his brain would've just interpreted that as Sidious using his hand to express himself. That would be before he was already starting to choke on the force ability.

Mind you, Dooku wouldn't resist even if he could've. It's just how his relationship with Sidious is. He wouldn't resist. If he did, the consequences would be worse. He knows that.

@mattyboi:

That's done on purpose to make you see he's struggling,

Proof? We know for a fact that everything in that fight was done to demonstrate their equality, at the very least power-wise. You would have to argue that they wanted to portray them as equals in the Force but vastly apart in lightsaber combat, which makes no sense.

he never struggled like that against Kenobi or Anakin.

And by "struggle," we mean Christopher Lee's face nigh-imperceptibly tensing for a brief moment while reaching forward to attack Yoda towards the end of a lengthy duel that was on the back of two other lengthy duels:

^ that is massively slowed down.

He'd only have to run if he was outmatched

He'd have to run for the reasons I already mentioned:

Maybe because reinforcements would be arriving in moments, as they did shortly after he broke off. Maybe because he realized he wasn't going to win the fight, especially in his condition. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that they were closely matched in the lengthy duel beforehand.

Only EU was wiped.

Everything pre-2014 bar the films & TCW was rendered non-canon.

Even in the novels Yoda effortlessly defended Dooku's blows.

And both novels, like the comic, create an entirely different version of what really happened in the movie.+

It's still usable since its canon.

It's not canon, and it's unusable since it conflicts with the movie portrayal.

Yoda didn't use any of his own force power though, he only deflected Dooku's force power back at him,

Dooku attacked Yoda, who caught the power, and attacked Dooku with it. Both successfully defended themselves.

which proves Yoda is superior there.

How does Yoda being able to catch a burst of Dooku's lightning translate to him being more powerful than Dooku? It doesn't, and we know that your interpretation is wrong since this whole exchange was created from the point of view that they were equals.

There's literally no struggle there, he effortlessly shot the blast back.

Yoda was actually struggling to overpower it, against Dooku he casually overpowered the blast.

In what world is this casual and effortless?

It would be much harder to do so through hologram, since he's not even there.

Why? Sidious is only able to accomplish such acts by drawing on the Force's power, which is everywhere. Using the Force isn't extending your own personal power, it's about feeling and drawing from the energy in and around the object you're lifting. The energy that's everywhere.

"Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

"The Force is not a power you have. It's not about lifting rocks. It's the energy between all things, a tension, a balance, that binds the universe together."

He was clearly enraged when he fought Yoda, his face shows this.

He was never enraged. At best you could argue that at certain points he was angry, which isn't at all the same thing as rage.

Sidious was literally toying with Maul, then easily overpowered him again

Again, not true. Everything from the climaxing music score to the much more intense and almost dead even swordplay show that Maul was genuinely competing with him. Lol, even Sidious' demeanor shifts from casually enjoying himself to anger.

No, they literally thought they won the duel and had their blades to her face, they were caught off guard which is shown. The same thing cannot be said of Dooku since he had much time to react and resist the force choke.

They are not shown to be caught off guard, that is baseless speculation. And, they had ample time to react and resist. Ventress dominated them for a full 13 seconds, Dooku was strangled for 7-8. But neither could resist, because in order to be choked in the first place they would need to be overpowered. Enraged Ventress overpowered Anakin & Obi-Wan just like how enraged Savage also overpowered Anakin & Obi-Wan, as well as Dooku & Ventress.

Dookus

Dooku duo wins round 1 6/10 and wins round 2 10/10

@richard96: Pretty sure that comic isn't canon. At the very least I don't see it on wookepedia's timeline of canon comics. And the kiddy looking art makes it seem questionable as well. From what I can tell, that actually came from a magazine, which makes it even more questionable.

Yoda may be noticeably superior to Dooku, but I kind of doubt he takes the majority over two of him at once.

@mattyboi

Dooku had already stomped Kenobi and Anakin, he wasn't that tired when he fought Yoda.

He didn't stomp them, he defeated them handily, while taunting Kenobi. He wasn't extremely tired yes, but still not in his best shape.

Because he got Sidious mad, and he saw his hand slowly move to him.

He was looking at Sidious' face, not his hand, which didn't move slowly at all, and he wouldn't be expecting Sidious to choke him even if he had angered the latter, because he thought that he was an invaluable asset to Sidious.

Dooku must have very bad peripheral vision then, he should definitely be able to see his hand moving, even when looking at his face. He looked surprised because he was getting overpowered. He would've tried to resist if he could, but he was clearly overpowered there.

Completely baseless claims that aren't supported by what we see on screen, or logic for that matter. If he resisted, he would've only angered Sidious more, and Sidious' hand didn't even move slowly. Just because he was focused on Sidious' face and didn't notice the sudden movement of his hand doesn't mean he has bad peripheral vision.

Again Dooku had a lot of time to resist.

Again, he most likely wasn't trying to. Anakin and Kenobi did have lots of time to resist Ventress' force choke, yet struggled to do so, and none of what you said proves that Dooku is fodder to Sidious.

@lord_tenebrous:

Proof? We know for a fact that everything in that fight was done to demonstrate their equality, at the very least power-wise. You would have to argue that they wanted to portray them as equals in the Force but vastly apart in lightsaber combat, which makes no sense.

They're clearly not equals, Sidious>>>Dooku and Yoda was winning against him. There'd be no other reason for the guy to be struggling while fighting, especially since he never struggled against Kenobi or Anakin.

And by "struggle," we mean Christopher Lee's face nigh-imperceptibly tensing for a brief moment while reaching forward to attack Yoda towards the end of a lengthy duel that was on the back of two other lengthy duels:

The duel wasn't lengthy, it was one of the shortest duels ever.

Maybe because reinforcements would be arriving in moments, as they did shortly after he broke off. Maybe because he realized he wasn't going to win the fight, especially in his condition. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that they were closely matched in the lengthy duel beforehand.

They weren't closely matched, Yoda was effortlessly winning that fight. Dooku had to run because he was outmatched.

Everything pre-2014 bar the films & TCW was rendered non-canon.

I guess every star wars movie besides the sequel trilogy is non canon now.

And both novels, like the comic, create an entirely different version of what really happened in the movie.+

The novels and comic are still canon.

It's not canon, and it's unusable since it conflicts with the movie portrayal.

It is canon and usable.

In what world is this casual and effortless?

This one.

How does Yoda being able to catch a burst of Dooku's lightning translate to him being more powerful than Dooku? It doesn't, and we know that your interpretation is wrong since this whole exchange was created from the point of view that they were equals.

Lol. Dooku isn't equal to Yoda.

Why? Sidious is only able to accomplish such acts by drawing on the Force's power, which is everywhere. Using the Force isn't extending your own personal power, it's about feeling and drawing from the energy in and around the object you're lifting. The energy that's everywhere.

?

He was never enraged. At best you could argue that at certain points he was angry, which isn't at all the same thing as rage.

He was enraged, they literally show his face and it was clearly enraged.

Again, not true. Everything from the climaxing music score to the much more intense and almost dead even swordplay show that Maul was genuinely competing with him. Lol, even Sidious' demeanor shifts from casually enjoying himself to anger.

Lol, Maul got stomped even with the rage amp. Sidious was toying with Maul.

They are not shown to be caught off guard, that is baseless speculation. And, they had ample time to react and resist. Ventress dominated them for a full 13 seconds, Dooku was strangled for 7-8. But neither could resist, because in order to be choked in the first place they would need to be overpowered. Enraged Ventress overpowered Anakin & Obi-Wan just like how enraged Savage also overpowered Anakin & Obi-Wan, as well as Dooku & Ventress.

No, it's clearly shown that he was caught off guard, they had no time to react either and couldn't resist. Not sure what this proves though, since Sidious still stomped Dooku.

@red12789:

He didn't stomp them, he defeated them handily, while taunting Kenobi. He wasn't extremely tired yes, but still not in his best shape.

Dooku stomped Kenobi, only Anakin was able to put up somewhat of a good fight, but still got destroyed. He wasn't tired at all.

He was looking at Sidious' face, not his hand, which didn't move slowly at all, and he wouldn't be expecting Sidious to choke him even if he had angered the latter, because he thought that he was an invaluable asset to Sidious.

I don't know about you but, with peripheral vision I can easily see someone's hand while looking at their face, and I don't even have the best peripheral vision lol, so this argument makes no sense.

Completely baseless claims that aren't supported by what we see on screen, or logic for that matter. If he resisted, he would've only angered Sidious more, and Sidious' hand didn't even move slowly. Just because he was focused on Sidious' face and didn't notice the sudden movement of his hand doesn't mean he has bad peripheral vision.

Sidious' hand moved very slowly. And Dooku simply couldn't resist. Again it's very easy to see someone's hand even when focused on their face, if Dooku couldn't do this he definitely has bad peripheral vision which I'm not inclined to believe is true.

Again, he most likely wasn't trying to. Anakin and Kenobi did have lots of time to resist Ventress' force choke, yet struggled to do so, and none of what you said proves that Dooku is fodder to Sidious.'

He definitely was trying to. Ventress caught them off guard and gave them no time to react, so this does nothing to help your point.

Yoda wins.

@mattyboi:

Dooku stomped Kenobi, only Anakin was able to put up somewhat of a good fight, but still got destroyed. He wasn't tired at all.

No he didn't. Defeating someone in 30 seconds (not even including off-screen time) doesn't equate to stomping, even if he was toying with Kenobi.

I don't know about you but, with peripheral vision I can easily see someone's hand while looking at their face, and I don't even have the best peripheral vision lol, so this argument makes no sense. Sidious' hand moved very slowly. And Dooku simply couldn't resist. Again it's very easy to see someone's hand even when focused on their face, if Dooku couldn't do this he definitely has bad peripheral vision which I'm not inclined to believe is true.

No it didn't. It moved out from behind his back to his side rather slowly, but curled into a choking shape extremely quickly. Unless you are going to argue that just because Sidious' hand had moved from behind his back to his side, Dooku was expecting him to choke him despite him believing that he was one of Sidious' most valuable assets, then that point is irrelevant.

He definitely was trying to. Ventress caught them off guard and gave them no time to react, so this does nothing to help your point.

Proof that he was trying to resist? That's a completely baseless claim. Logically, it would make no sense since he would simply infuriate his master even more by resisting. Yes, Ventress caught Anakin and Kenobi off guard who combined were considerably stronger than her, but they had plenty of time to resist her choke, yet were unable to. If your point is that holding someone in a force choke without them being able to resist means that the opposition is fodder, then Anakin and Kenobi combined would be fodder to Ventress. You still haven't proven that Dooku is fodder to Sidious nonetheless.

@red12789:

No he didn't. Defeating someone in 30 seconds (not even including off-screen time) doesn't equate to stomping, even if he was toying with Kenobi.

Once they locked blades Dooku easily took Kenobi out, he's smiling and taunting him the whole time too.

No it didn't. It moved out from behind his back to his side rather slowly, but curled into a choking shape extremely quickly. Unless you are going to argue that just because Sidious' hand had moved from behind his back to his side, Dooku was expecting him to choke him despite him believing that he was one of Sidious' most valuable assets, then that point is irrelevant.

Yes it did... his hand was moving very slowly. After making Sidious mad I'm not sure what else Dooku would expect to happen.

Proof that he was trying to resist? That's a completely baseless claim. Logically, it would make no sense since he would simply infuriate his master even more by resisting.

Fair enough. Though Sidious doing this from across the galaxy puts him above Dooku.

Ventress caught Anakin and Kenobi off guard who combined were considerably stronger than her, but they had plenty of time to resist her choke, yet were unable to. If your point is that holding someone in a force choke without them being able to resist means that the opposition is fodder, then Anakin and Kenobi combined would be fodder to Ventress. You still haven't proven that Dooku is fodder to Sidious nonetheless.

I'm saying force choking someone from across the galaxy definitely means you can fodderize them.

Unless Dooku has done something like this, he's fodder to Sidious and Yoda force wise.

@mattyboi:

Once they locked blades Dooku easily took Kenobi out, he's smiling and taunting him the whole time too.

Yes, but it's not a stomp by any metrics.

Yes it did... his hand was moving very slowly. After making Sidious mad I'm not sure what else Dooku would expect to happen.

Yes from behind his back to his side, which could've meant anything, and it wasn't that slowly. Dooku thought that he was an extremely valuable asset to Sidious, like I've said before, so he wouldn't be expecting it even if he made Sidious angry.

Fair enough. Though Sidious doing this from across the galaxy puts him above Dooku.

Sidious being above Dooku is something anybody with a basic knowledge of SW would know. However, Sidious isn't so far above Dooku that Dooku is completely fodder to him.

I'm saying force choking someone from across the galaxy definitely means you can fodderize them.

Yet we don't know how hard force choking someone from across the galaxy actually is, and Dooku was likely not trying to resist, and at least somewhat caught off guard.

Dooku hasn't accomplished anything as impressive as lifting a mountain, but he has hurled numerous large vehicles, including a cruiser together easily before smashing them together.

They moved farther into the darkness.

"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."

"This time I'll be prepared."

"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."

They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.

Like phantoms..

Phantoms that move...

Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.

Then he knew.

"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.

Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.

He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.

The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.

Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.

"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."

--

Jedi Quest: The final showdown

He has also lifted a dozen obelisk stones, that are apparently 100+ tonnes without any strain.

Yes, these feats are not as impressive as Yoda lifting a mountain, but it shows that his force powers are still extremely powerful and that he can perform large-scale feats, which doesn't make him fodder compared to Sidious/Yoda.

Old sources even state that Dooku and Yoda were near-equals in the force, though most of them have now been retconned.

Yoda seriously stomps here. Better in virtually every area by miles

If Yoda is smart he simply force pushes both their legs so they break like twigs.

2 Dookus' are enough. 3 is a stomp.

The Dooku lowball is strong with this thread.

Yoda cannot beat 2 Dookus - he gets slaughtered

@red12789:

Yes, but it's not a stomp by any metrics.

Okay, it was a very easy win then.

Yes from behind his back to his side, which could've meant anything, and it wasn't that slowly. Dooku thought that he was an extremely valuable asset to Sidious, like I've said before, so he wouldn't be expecting it even if he made Sidious angry.

He definitely should've expected Sidious to do that. He knows who his master is and not to make him angry.

Yet we don't know how hard force choking someone from across the galaxy actually is, and Dooku was likely not trying to resist, and at least somewhat caught off guard.

MAYBE not trying to resist, but definitely not caught off guard.

Yes, these feats are not as impressive as Yoda lifting a mountain, but it shows that his force powers are still extremely powerful and that he can perform large-scale feats, which doesn't make him fodder compared to Sidious/Yoda.

Well those feats are fodder to Yoda/Sidious'

@mattyboi:

Okay, it was a very easy win then.

Against Kenobi, yes, but against Anakin, it was a bit harder.

He definitely should've expected Sidious to do that. He knows who his master is and not to make him angry.

And why would he expect Sidious to choke someone who he believed was Sidious' most valuable asset?

MAYBE not trying to resist, but definitely not caught off guard.

It makes no sense for him to resist, and he wouldn't be expecting Sidious to choke an important asset and ally.

Well those feats are fodder to Yoda/Sidious'

Not really fodder. Hurling numerous large ships at high velocities is less impressive than lifting a mountain, but not completely fodder compared to it. And if I'm not mistaken, ROTS Sidious' best TK feat was hurling several senate pods at high speeds towards Yoda.

^^^

Just lurking in my own thread but I must ask:

Is this canon? I think I know which scan you're referring to if its from a comic, but I have no clue as to what that comic is named.

Yoda still dies badly. Again, there is no Sith or Jedi from the prequel era who could stand toe to toe with 2 Dookus. Every single character would fall flat on their face.

Double Dooku's in a good fight

Except obviously Jar Jar. He would stomp an infinite amount of Dookus.

And Cad Bane.