Count Dooku x2 vs Darth Sidious

Again, the Script is from the Movie; if you actually read and Paid attention to the Script Luke never fought Vader without wrathful emotions.

So, I keep asking you how is Base Luke Equal to Vader when he needed Wrathful Emotions to fight him in the first place?

You ignored Vader clearly showing Superiority over Luke when He Tanked Sidious force Lighting while Weakened and Luke Getting owned by Force Lighting.

If you are just allowed to ignore that without bringing up anything, By Extention I can ignore and dismiss your claims about the former.

First, you need to Acknowledge that Vader Tanked and Survived Sidious force lighting long enough to kill him, while Luke couldn't even stand up when he was hit by Sidious Force Lighting.

Then you need to explain to me and yourself how is Luke Logically on Vader level when he folded to what Vader tanked while Weakened. then I'll acknowledge your Argument that you sent me.

you are using double standards you can't tell me to acknowledge your post, while you ignore a clear sign of Vader being Superior to Luke in my post beforehand.

@kingofblades1:

Your using Misinterpreted quote From GL as your argument, This is your problem. You are gifted with analyzing quote...when you want to be, but other times you straight suck.

Let me enlightening you a bit here first then I want to hear you acknowledge what I said about Vader and Luke.

First off, the reason I don't really need to Address your Ankain>vader Argument, because plain and simple it nonsense...but since you keep asking me about let me fill in the holes. George Lucas was Talking about Anakin's Potential being Greater than Vader's Potential not his power.

which he is factually Corrected on.

Vader will never Be as Powerful as Anakin would have Been, and Could Have Been had he not got mutilated. I never Disagreed or Argued against this. I said Vader is more powerful than Anakin when I said that I was talking about strictly his powers, not his potential on what he could have been.

George Lucas Quote Reference Anakin's Potential, which you can see in the Passage. when He said Anakin, Had the POTENTIAL to be 200% of Sidious. Lucas wasn't Talking about his Current powers but what he could be.

Vader is more powerful than the Power Anakin had in ROTS, Anakin, when he was watching MAce fight, couldn't even follow their movements...which proves he wasn't on their level then.

Geroge Lucas also said Sidious wanted someone more powerful than him as his apprentice when After Vader injuries he realized that he would never be more powerful than him but still was powerful enough to kill him. the only way that can happen is if he is at least close to the Emperor which he is as Geroge Lucas Said Vader is 20% less then the Emperor.

This doesn't mean he Didn't surpass ROTS Sidious. it doesn't Mean Sidious after ROTS didn't continue to get more powerful in the force after he gained the Jedi Holocrons.

You have no Argument if that is all you are hinging on in this debate is a Note from Lucas Talking about Anakin's Potential.

Then he later Retcons that when he said Vader is 80% of Sidious.

^ that negates the previous notion that he was weaker than Ben Kenobi. who he said maybe or possible when they talked about Vader vs Kenobi.

So nothing puts Vader behind Kenobi but bias that you have towards Vader. You are basing your Scaling of Luke because of his performance against Vader yet nothing states he is equal with Vader.

Then You have Tons of C-Canon which says Vader is close to the Emperor, and that he rivals him. not only that its shown in force unleash 2 that Vader is more powerful than Sidious from Force unleash 1.

So, in your eyes Feats>>>Statements then right? unless you can find me a quote on Luke from George. As I said, Luke Needs wrathful Emotions to equal Luke, even at the end of the Passage...Sidious Told Luke "Your hate as made you very powerful" which Supports me and my argument.

Vader was able to Tank Sidious force lighting which you still haven't yet to acknowledge.

Lords of the Sith say Vader is more powerful than he was as Anakin.

The quote states that “Ben was probably” - not certainly - “stronger than Vader” and that he was “maybe” a six. The fact that you are using such unclear language to denote an absolute fact shows you are pretty desperate. Not only that, you baselessly assume that Lucas saying Vader didn't surpass the Emperor exclusively refers to the Emperor as of Revenge of the Sith.* When Lucas Talked about Luke having the power to overthrow Sidious at the beginning in the present tense and at the end in the future tense but refers to Revenge of the Sith in the past tense, So I can say he is talking about Sidious from the Original Trilogy, Which I showed Sidious Continued to amass more power.

Just because Vader didn't surpass Sidious doesn't preclude him from surpassing Sidious Earlier iterations.

Going by your logic, Ben Kenobi can Kill Sidious since GL stated the only reason Vader died was Because of his Cybernated which we all agree was made to be super weak Against Sidious Force lighting. There is only one Quote which states that Kenobi was weaker every other source states He is stronger....according to Lucas himself Anakin was already “as strong as the Emperor”, so Vader being above the former would by extension place him beyond RotS Sidious in power.

Sidious seeing Vader as a Threat backs up my point that Vader was close to him in power if the Disparity was so far apart he wouldn't fear him or think Vader was POWERFul Enough to kill him...your argument contradicts logic.

Vader was already plotting right then to kill the emperor.

Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first - training by both Vader and Palpatine - before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy.

It was retcon because Sidious Saw Vader as a threat to him.

You literally made your self unreliable when you took the Quotes that said “Ben was probably” - not certainly - “stronger than Vader” and that he was “maybe” a six. as a means to put Ben Over Vader.

You shot your self in the foot as because Lucas Admitted Vader only died because of the Cybernetics which Ben Doesn't have. So...by your own Logic Ben would kill Sidious since He is more powerful than Vader According to you.

I explained that is a Fallacy of False Equivalence because Sidious was talking about Ventress's Potential on what she could be. While Vader he was feared his current powers and viewed him as a threat.

I already addressed your argument, you just ignoring the points, because you know you rushed and didn't use Critical thinking.

As I said, you said Ben was above Vader, so by Extention means Ben can kill Sidious, since GL stated Vader only died because of his cybernetics.

you gave up on the Luke stuff after Script off it stated he was using wrathful emotions to fight Vader, we know this gave him a huge boost since Anakin with Darkside stomped Dooku when before Dooku could handle light Side Kenobi and Anakin.

Sidious Fearing Vader current Power Proves he was closer then what you are downplaying him at.

@kingofblades1: Is wrathful a word?

@kingofblades1: Twice the bad grammar, double the bad debating ability..

@idrisiangraecus: Just throwing in that only about 4 SWTOR era characters can be considered to be more powerful than ROTJ Vader. Unchained Vaylin and the Outlander as well as Valkorion, and maybe Revan.

@mygod000: Revan is fodder and Vitiate is fodder to Vader.

I hope to God you don't mean Valkorion era Vitiate, because if so...

@kingofblades1 Literally zero chance of him conceding. He'd argue Padme could beat GM Luke if the two are even mentioned in the same chapter.

@breakofdawn: I feel as if Revan >= Outlander. Revan is hyped up to be second to Valk only, and on top of that, survived the machine core, as well as mini Ziost events.

Also, what have non Outlander Jedi and Sith classes done to show that they’re not Vader level. Nox, Wrath, HoT and Barsen’thor have pretty good showings. Though one of them is the Outlander.

@idrisiangraecus:

I feel as if Revan >= Outlander. Revan is hyped up to be second to Valk only, and on top of that, survived the machine core, as well as mini Ziost events.

A lot of those feats he did whilst horrendously amped, though. Besides which, Valkorion seems to think we're > Revan, and our feats such as being more powerful than Vaylin who could overload a facility's generators while not even in the stratosphere are just more impressive. She also has feats like tanking the combined blasts of about 10 energy beams when a single one could disintegrate a powerful Nathema zealot.

Also, do you mean MyGod000 conceding?

Yep. The guy doesn't understand the word "concede."

@breakofdawn: The Yavin IV nexus wasn’t as potent as let’s say, Zakuul, Dromund Kaas, Korriban, Byss, etc. The nexus logic isn’t fair here, because the Outlander isn’t > all 8 protagonists, Marr, Satele, Beniko, Mandalore the Avenger, and that Wookiee dude combined. Neither is Vaylin. During the fight, Revan was massively weakened due to the machine core and Temple of Sacrifice events. As of the foundry, Revan was able to pulverize asteroids after ripping them out of orbit, this was one of his weakest incarnations.

@idrisiangraecus: The Yavin IV nexus wasn’t as potent as let’s say, Zakuul, Dromund Kaas, Korriban, Byss, etc.

I don't understand how you drew this conclusion. It's described as being far more potent than Oricon (which had the power to send ordinary troopers and even Sith lords insane) and has far more dark side history than most of the planets you mentioned.

The nexus logic isn’t fair here, because the Outlander isn’t > all 8 protagonists, Marr, Satele, Beniko, Mandalore the Avenger, and that Wookiee dude combined. Neither is Vaylin.

Satele was pre-prime (as well as weakened), Lana is fodder to chained Vaylin, let alone unchained Vaylin or the Outlander, Mandalore is also pre-prime, and Jakarro has no feats to speak of. I'd definitely say either of them are above the strike team. The only significant offensive members of that strike team were the HoT (who was weakened) and Marr (who is still << Revan).

It's redundant anyway, since the same strike team beat Revan.

During the fight, Revan was massively weakened due to the machine core and Temple of Sacrifice events.

Both of which are entirely dependent on your choices. My version for example had the Republic and Imperial troopers taking the temple, meaning Revan was at full strength. It also wasn't referenced beyond that nor was any suggestion of weakness made.

As of the foundry, Revan was able to pulverize asteroids after ripping them out of orbit, this was one of his weakest incarnations.

That's a gameplay mechanic, which I don't trust. And IIRC, he didn't pulverise them. They shattered when they hit the ground.

@kingofblades1 I got bored with that debate a while ago. He's obviously comparable to SoR Vitiate, but novel Vitiate was comfortable above novel Revan (per his own words) and there isn't much evidence his power massively increased between the novel and SoR. Valkorion would annihilate Revan.

Again, Valkorion seemed to believe the Outlander would grant him greater power than he ever had before if he were to possess him and consume his Force power. The Outlander already has a far superior feat to anything Revan has done in being stronger than a Force user who could overload a facility's reactors when not even close to the planet.

I feel quite safe in saying either Arcann or chained Vaylin could give Revan a decent to good fight. Unchained Vaylin or KOTET chapter 8/9 Outlander would both beat him. As of now, I only consider Valkorion, the Outlander and unchained Vaylin to be > Vader, and the latter two aren't that far above.

I read your post, and you clearly missed the fact that I said to prove that Vader while Weaker than he ever been GAthering power was beyond his Standard limits.

You ignored that until that is proven we are at in impasse.

Ofc I understand what Conceding is, and No I won't concede on something When I am asking the other side to prove that Vader while at his weakest he ever been surpassed his standard power from just gathering energy for a min.

You'll have to prove that it went beyond his limits. Yes, that same vitiate his most powerful feats were performed while he was amped by a planet and doing sith Rituals, siphoning other powers to make himself more powerful. Vader and Sidious power alone was better. they didn't need to siphoning other Force powers to get stronger.

But Like I said Agree to disagree don't waste both of our times because of it clear you are stuck with your opinions and I am with mine so it is better to just agree and not insult each other.

Sidious stomps hard.

I am not downplaying it, I am not saying Vader focusing his power wasn’t a big deal. My point was that because Vader was “weaker than he’d ever been” you have absolutely no way to ascertain whether him accumulating his power would place him above his natural strength or not...Even after being empowered by “the super energy,” Vader is still weakened (“remaining strength”; “the Dark Lord’s weakened body”; “a crippled Vader”) in all sources.

The Debate on that ends there because you have no proof to back up your claim. Again, Not saying it wasn't a big deal, just saying you have no proof that it excessed his standard limits.

Yes, We both agree that he tanked Sidious full potency Force lighting. The only people who have done this where rivals to Sidious powers and has been shown to be able to Grab his force lighting in their hands.

I also, Disagree with your Luke=Vader, because absolutely nothing there states Luke gained powers that equaled his father’s through personal growth. I proved that Luke only ever fought Equally with him when he was using Wrathful Emotions. it even mentioned that Luke let his Anger bleed away “Again the young Jedi allowed his anger to bleed away," stated right after Luke disengages and jumps to the catwalk.

Luke equaling Vader argument is not a very accurate argument because it was only so when he used his rage to amp himself to match Vader.

Then you talked about the 80% thing is ambiguous, and Vague?

You do realize that these Force levels of GL are just as ambiguous, arbitrary and vague as the percentages, do you? I say he is near the emperor because he has 7 accolades that put him on there while you have one Quote from GL from 1989.

I think it very foolish to discredit the Emperor who said Vader was a threat to his current power. He is a reliable source and more than Quantified to make an accurate judgment on the situation.

I am not downplaying Sidious, when I say he is shite with a blade, I am incapable of it he is my 3rd favorite character in all of Star Wars. The only two people I like more than him is my number 2 Darth Vader because he is an animal, and my favorite Anakin Skywalker because he was number 1.

I just want everyone to know that Sidious&Vader are Sith Gods, Revan and Vitiate are not in their leagues. It's Like Sidious and Vader Went back in time, took a crap and Left Revan and vitiate.

You don't have to agree with me, but let not insult each other and just agree to disagree if we can't come to an agreement I am trying to compromise that I have more Backing up that Vader is more powerful and Rival to Sidious then you have against the claim.

I actually did prove that those quotes mean nothing when The word of God also Stated Vader was 80% of the emperor. not only that the only people Word of God say could beat the Palpatine is Yoda, Mace, and Anakin. Sidious also saw Vader as a threat to him.

so let agree to disagree.

@kingofblades1 While Vader is one of my favourite characters and it hurts to do this, it's also important to note that GL was not even sure it was that high:

“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

He throws out a random statistic to suggest that Vader is still extremely powerful, but no longer close to Sidious level. He also directly compares Vader to Dooku or Maul in power to indicate how much power he lost from the events of Mustafar. If Sidious/Mace/Yoda are tier 9 and Dooku/Maul are tier 8, Vader's injuries dropped him from being a tenuous 9 (a firm 9 given a bit more time) down all the way to a high 8. Impressive, and still putting him > Dooku or Maul, but not nearly enough to best Sidious, Mace or Yoda.

You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

While I personally think Vader is definitely more powerful than Dooku or Maul (the latter more than the former), he's only close to ROTS Sidious by the time of ROTJ, and even then he's only 80% which puts him about a tier below Sidious, Yoda and Mace.

@mygod000 Read the above quotes. Word of advice? Don't dismiss the statements of the creator of a franchise. It's one of the basic rules of debating; if the creator says something, even if it's contradicted by lore (which it's not in this case), it's canon. Considering Lucas has infinitely more authority on this than us, I'd suggest conceding to him when he's reinforced it more times than I can count.

@breakofdawn: Yes, but it is canon, and therefore usable.

The strike team would’ve lost, but Light Revan showed up and saved the day, you can’t deny that. Without it, Revan can just TK was you to hell, and the drain you easily. Furthermore, there is one major flaw in your logic, the HoT isn’t canonically the Outlander, and Satele’s Battle Meditation is more than enough to make up for the light side people’s weakness from the nexus. The Wrath could be the Outlander, and therefore amped on Yavin as well as Marr, who is at least Malgus level, and is a superior to Jadus based on accolades. The strike team was composed of all 8 protagonists, and all 8 together > Outlander. Let alone Satele & Marr. Out of curiosity, what makes Satele pre prime? She held her own with Malgus long before, and was plenty powerful in that fight.

On a side note, can I just stop I say I’d like to contradict George Lucas? Post transformation Sarasu Taalon &gt;&gt; ROTJ Sidious.

why are you only using one way to interpret the quote?

He compared Vader to Dooku and Maul who were two people who could have surpassed the Emperor but failed. He never said Vader was equal with Dooku or Maul.

Sidious wanted someone more powerful than Him as to train and help him rule the Universe, so in a sense he was right Vader was compared to Dooku or maul failed experiments that could have been more powerful than Sidious but failed.

Like I said 7 sources Says Vader was more powerful than Anakin, GL stated Anakin was on the same level as Sidious ROTS. Vader in the Force unleash was rag-dolling people who were Yoda Tier. why does the 80% to you only mean ROTS Sidious, when GL refers to him in the past Tense, we know Sidious got More powerful than he was during ROTS?

it was even said that Vader was Equally as Powerful as Sidious. clearly, they are not saying Vader equals Sidious only that he rivals Sidious. being 80% of him pretty much is rivaling him in power. People who Fought Evenly with Vader was able to Catch a more powerful Sidious force lighting and stated Sidious was desperate in the duel. In Terms of Raw power, Vader is Above ROTS Sidious. the only thing Sidious has over Vader was Force Lighting.

Vader and Sidious were in Lockstep with their power Growth, the fact that Vader had to start over from Scratch put him behind Sidious.

as I mentioned Above Even GL stated Anakin was at least as powerful Sidious before he got Maimed.

Even Nick Gillard, who is the Mouthpiece for George Lucas, said Anakin is a 9 while mentally unstable...but still a 9.

Vader in ROTJ Stated his "powers is Greater than it has ever been" which would automatically put him more powerful than Anakin from Mustafar who GL view on par with ROTS Sidious.

ROTJ Sidious>>ROTJ Vader>ROTS Sidious.

Vader can still be below ROTJ Sidious and Above Sidious previous incarnations.

Like I said Agree to disagree.

@idrisiangraecus:

Yes, but it is canon, and therefore usable.

Never said it wasn't, only that both an injured Revan and an uninjured Revan failed to dispatch even non Force users on the strike team.

The strike team would’ve lost, but Light Revan showed up and saved the day, you can’t deny that. Without it, Revan can just TK was you to hell, and the drain you easily.

Source for Revan saving them in the final battle? And as I showed, Revan failed to put down even the non Force users like Theron, Jakarro or Shae Viszla despite having considerable time to gather his power and also while being amped by a hugely powerful Force nexus.

Furthermore, there is one major flaw in your logic, the HoT isn’t canonically the Outlander,

Logically, only two characters fit the bill for the Outlander: the HoT and the Emperor's Wrath. Look up any trailer for KOTFE beyond. I guarantee you will find that every single trailer except one depicts the Outlander as the HoT, and even that one features him. Teasers and sneak peeks also portray the Outlander as the HoT, the official reveal trailer for KOTFE depicts the Outlander as the HoT...it might as well be confirmed at this point.

and Satele’s Battle Meditation is more than enough to make up for the light side people’s weakness from the nexus.

The battle meditation is entirely reliant on the Force user being able to call upon the Force to amp their companions. In Satele's case, her connection to the Force would have been massively weakened, and thus greatly limited the effectiveness of her battle meditation. It wouldn't nearly be enough to make up for the nexus' weakening of the Force users.

The Wrath could be the Outlander, and therefore amped on Yavin as well

Already addressed this.

as Marr, who is at least Malgus level,and is a superior to Jadus based on accolades.

Okay, and? Never said Marr was weak, but one Force user being amped doesn't mean they could take a Revan who was A) horrendously amped, and B) had considerable time to gather his power, giving him greater reserves than anyone on the strike team.

The strike team was composed of all 8 protagonists, and all 8 together > Outlander.

I highly doubt that. Arcann could ragdoll the most powerful of the protagonists (the HoT). Chained Vaylin > Arcann, and chained Vaylin >>> chained Vaylin or Arcann. Since the Outlander is more powerful than Vaylin, there's no indication that the 8 protagonists (4 of which could be immediately one-shot) > the Outlander.

Let alone Satele & Marr.

They weren't in the strike team you're talking about, and yes the Outlander >> Satele or Marr.

Out of curiosity, what makes Satele pre prime? She held her own with Malgus long before, and was plenty powerful in that fight.

She didn't actually peak until KOTFE. Prior to this Malgus was still solidly > her. I'd say that only by KOTFE was she more powerful than TFE Malgus, and now I'm not sure who's stronger. In the battle you're talking about (Hope), he was hit with a rocket and took a grenade to the face and was still overpowering her Force grip in the final sequence.

On a side note, can I just stop I say I’d like to contradict George Lucas? Post transformation Sarasu Taalon &gt;&gt; ROTJ Sidious.

Potentially yes, but Taalon has no feats to suggest he's > ROTJ Sidious.

@mygod000

why are you only using one way to interpret the quote?

He compared Vader to Dooku and Maul who were two people who could have surpassed the Emperor but failed.

Okay, just...stop. Dooku and Maul were never surpassing Sidious. Ever. This is a clear representation of how a Maul vs Sidious fight would go:

Also, you realise you just admitted 2 Dooku's can beat Sidious, right?

He never said Vader was equal with Dooku or Maul.

Nor did I. This is you either straw-manning or not reading what I say properly.

Sidious wanted someone more powerful than Him as to train and help him rule the Universe, so in a sense he was right Vader was compared to Dooku or maul failed experiments that could have been more powerful than Sidious but failed.

*Sigh* If you say "yeah Vader would have been twice as powerful as Sidious but after getting burned and cut up he was like Dooku or Maul" you are explicitly saying he's < Sidious. He's literally saying that Vader, like Dooku or Maul, became a tool due to his weakness.

Like I said 7 sources Says Vader was more powerful than Anakin,

Canon sources, and no one disputes that, lol. They say KF Vader > ROTJ Vader, which is the truth.

GL stated Anakin was on the same level as Sidious ROTS.

He stated he would have been on the same level, not that he was.

Vader in the Force unleash was rag-dolling people who were Yoda Tier.

Headcannon =/= feats. Quit with the Starkiller wank, I can't be asked to debunk it for the 300th time.

why does the 80% to you only mean ROTS Sidious, when GL refers to him in the past Tense, we know Sidious got More powerful than he was during ROTS?

Because he was referring to the events of ROTS. It's pretty clear he meant Vader went from being a peer of ROTS Sidious to 80% or less of him.

it was even said that Vader was Equally as Powerful as Sidious.

That has never been said, only implied.

clearly, they are not saying Vader equals Sidious only that he rivals Sidious. being 80% of him pretty much is rivaling him in power.

Except Sidious grew considerably between ROTS - the version this is talking about - and ROTJ.

People who Fought Evenly with Vader was able to Catch a more powerful Sidious force lighting and stated Sidious was desperate in the duel.

I already debunked this with a far more experienced debater in Arkham. I'm not wasting my time repeating the same points when I know from previous debates with you that you won't read them.

In Terms of Raw power, Vader is Above ROTS Sidious.

Right, and Mace Windu > GM Luke.

the only thing Sidious has over Vader was Force Lighting.

Along with accolades, Vader's own confirmations that Sidious > Vader, telekinesis, telepathy, knowledge, Sith magic, saber skills...I could go on.

Vader and Sidious were in Lockstep with their power Growth, the fact that Vader had to start over from Scratch put him behind Sidious.

If he'd stayed as KF Vader, yes he could have quickly outgrown Sidious. However, ROTJ Vader < KF Vader.

Because of his growing power, yes. And?

as I mentioned Above Even GL stated Anakin was at least as powerful Sidious before he got Maimed.

Even Nick Gillard, who is the Mouthpiece for George Lucas, said Anakin is a 9 while mentally unstable...but still a 9.

Nowhere in there does it say KF Vader = Sidious. For example, Obi-Wan and Dooku are both tier 8s but it's abundantly clear that Dooku > Obi-Wan. You can be in the same tier and still be a reasonable amount weaker.

Vader in ROTJ Stated his "powers is Greater than it has ever been" which would automatically put him more powerful than Anakin from Mustafar who GL view on par with ROTS Sidious.

Considering he believed Anakin was dead, no it doesn't. Technicalities matter. He's saying his power is greater than it's ever been since the post-ROTS era, which makes him powerful but not that powerful.

ROTJ Sidious>>ROTJ Vader>ROTS Sidious.

More like ROTJ Sidious > ROTS Sidious = Yoda =/> Mace > ROTJ Vader.

Vader can still be below ROTJ Sidious and Above Sidious previous incarnations.

He can be, but he's not. By ROTJ he's on the cusp of being a 9 or a very low 9, which puts him in the same bracket as ROTS Sidious, Yoda and Mace but low enough that he's still a ways off of them in raw power.

@breakofdawn:

Okay, just...stop. Dooku and Maul were never surpassing Sidious. Ever. This is a clear representation of how a Maul vs Sidious fight would go:

Maul Could have definitely done this had he not been Cut in half. Dooku possibly.

"I know you're upset about the snake that bit you," Sidious said, continuing around the watery orb until he had a clear view of Maul. "I know everything about you, Maul. Everything." Sidious edged around the orb until he was facing Maul again. "While you might think that your life is harsh and unpleasant, and that I am sometimes cruel, there is a reason for you to endure such pain. The reason is that you must become strong in every way. You must learn to overcome pain. Someday, you might become stronger than I. You'd like that, wouldn't you? To be stronger than I?"

The Wrath of Darth Maul

That is False Equivalency. That Maul was a Shell of his former Self, had no power Growth in 10 years.

Also, you realise you just admitted 2 Dooku's can beat Sidious, right?

Do you realize I never said that? Don't Staw man me.

Nor did I. This is you either straw-manning or not reading what I say properly.

From your comments, you looked like you were saying he is =>Dooku. I was just telling you no if you are not implying that then make sure your comments express your opinion clear.

*Sigh* If you say "yeah Vader would have been twice as powerful as Sidious but after getting burned and cut up he was like Dooku or Maul" you are explicitly saying he's < Sidious. He's literally saying that Vader, like Dooku or Maul, became a tool due to his weakness.

I already know that. Sidious also notes what Vader Weakness was. All Lucas was saying is that Vader Like Dooku and Maul isn't as powerful as the Emperor.

Canon sources, and no one disputes that, lol. They say KF Vader > ROTJ Vader, which is the truth.

It was said in ESB that Vader was “at the height of his powers”.

He stated he would have been on the same level, not that he was.

You misinterpreted my post. My argument was that GL viewed them around par doesn't necessarily mean I am saying they are exactly the same level. It could mean Sidious is a 9.7 Anakin is a 9.3 and the statement would still hold true.

Headcannon =/= feats. Quit with the Starkiller wank, I can't be asked to debunk it for the 300th time.

Now, you are dictating the debate? LMFAO, Starkiller Tanked Force lighting From Sidious you don't have to accept it but it happened.

Because he was referring to the events of ROTS. It's pretty clear he meant Vader went from being a peer of ROTS Sidious to 80% or less of him.

I am saying just because he is 80% of Sidious doesn't mean he is talking about ROTS Sidious. When we are clearly talking about ROTJ Sidious.

I already debunked this with a far more experienced debater in Arkham. I'm not wasting my time repeating the same points when I know from previous debates with you that you won't read them.

If that how you feel about it then why are you debating when I clearly told you to agree to disagree? Now, you are trying to force your opinion on me when I told you I am not going to change my stands and it evident that you won't do the same.

Right, and Mace Windu > GM Luke.

Strawman Because I never said that.

Along with accolades, Vader's own confirmations that Sidious > Vader, telekinesis, telepathy, knowledge, Sith magic, saber skills...I could go on.

I mean sure... on about 90% of what you said Sidious blade skill was shite. we did this debate before in the other threat let not repeat it again so agree to disagree.

If he'd stayed as KF Vader, yes he could have quickly outgrown Sidious. However, ROTJ Vader < KF Vader.

No, ESB Vader was at the height of his powers. ROTJ Vader>ESB Vader

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was he even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground ... but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

Return of the Jedi

Because of his growing power, yes. And?

Because of his power, He was around par with Sidious.

Nowhere in there does it say KF Vader = Sidious. For example, Obi-Wan and Dooku are both tier 8s but it's abundantly clear that Dooku > Obi-Wan. You can be in the same tier and still be a reasonable amount weaker.

I explained above, that GL View them Around par. That doesn't mean they were equals, you interpreted my post as them being equaled when I am saying he saw them as around par and that Anakin was one of the people that could kill Sidious. in my post, I said at least equals I was clearly talking about tier list which had Yoda/Mace and Sidious at 9 and KF Anakin was also at 9 as well. thought you would understand that I wasn't saying, I meaning as around par. I even showed you the tier list thinking you would realize that I wasn't talking about equal power per-say, but just equal in the Tier list.

Considering he believed Anakin was dead, no it doesn't. Technicalities matter. He's saying his power is greater than it's ever been since the post-ROTS era, which makes him powerful but not that powerful.

Anakin who was on Mustafar wasn't Anakin anymore he was Vader then, so the Quote stick He stated his power was greater than it has ever been before, This includes KF Vader and Mustafar Vader.

More like ROTJ Sidious > ROTS Sidious = Yoda =/> Mace > ROTJ Vader.

More like this ROTJ Sidious>>ROTJ Vader>ROTS Sidious=Yoda>Mace

Like I said the only thing they had over Vader was that they were more mobile and faster than Vader.

He can be, but he's not. By ROTJ he's on the cusp of being a 9 or a very low 9, which puts him in the same bracket as ROTS Sidious, Yoda and Mace but low enough that he's still a ways off of them in raw power.

LMFAO? That is made-up nonsense, how is he a low Tier 9? where was it stated he was low Tier 9...Him being above Mustafar Anakin is enough to put him at least on ROTS Sidious. Sidious Continued To get more powerful after ROTS so Vader on par with ROTS Sidious or slightly above make sense Since Sidious Saw Vader as a threat to his current power.

anyways like I said this is going around in circles bruh...LMFAO let just agree to disagree.

@breakofdawn: The problem with your argument is that he was able to kill all of the troopers, etc, but didn’t kill anyone that was in the final strike team, implying both PIS, and the fact that he spared them on purpose, in order to use for the ritual.

I get what you’re saying about the Outlander, I believe he’s the HoT personally, but for the sake of this debate, him being the Outlander is noncanon, so we can’t assume it. Furthermore, Arcann defeating the Outlander early KOTFE does not imply complete superiority over all protags, and nothing actually makes the HoT the strongest protagonist.

I believe Revan is just a smidge above the Outlander, as in takes 6/10.

Also, the asteroid throwing thing is canon.

Taalon’s feats include manhandling FoTJ Luke with TK, lightning, and winning with the aid of (an extremely wounded) Vestara Khai.

Lord Tyranus/ Dooku is no way near the same tier as Yoda or Palpatine, the two counts gets thrown around by Darth Sidious telekinetic force powers. He has already shown that Dooku is hopelessly outmatched by Palpatine, when he force choked Tyranus from another planet through a hologram.

2 dookus stomp. And anyone who says Palpatine wins needs to be banned from this website immediately for have ga such a false and stupid opinion.

Dooku(s)

Either way if this is ROTS Sidious. ROTJ/DE Sidious stomps.

Sidious.