Count Dooku x2 vs Darth Sidious

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#1 Posted by AzureAmaterasu (617 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2 Posted by AzureAmaterasu (617 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by BreakOfDawn (2577 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm...Sidious in a good fight if ROTS. ROTJ or DE take it comfortably or handily. Dooku is extremely powerful and two of him are enough to beat most Force users, but he's still not taking the top tiers (Sidious, Yoda, Mace, maybe Anakin, etc).

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#4 Posted by PhantomRant (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious can take two of them out no problem.

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#5 Posted by Richard96 (5915 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious wins, with some issues.

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#6 Posted by AmethystGravity (2401 posts) - - Show Bio

Two Dookus only means it's "twice the pride, double the fall." ;)

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#7 Posted by WollfMyth209 (17471 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious is pretty significantly above Dooku, even by RotS, so even two of them won't be enough.

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#8 Posted by IdrisianGraecus (394 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious destroys at ROTS. ROTJ has more difficulty, but still not much. DE seats.

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#9 Posted by AzureAmaterasu (617 posts) - - Show Bio

Two Dookus only means it's "twice the pride, double the fall." ;)

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#10 Posted by AzureAmaterasu (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@phantomrantOkay so how many do you reckon would be enough ??

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#11 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

A prime Dooku is Yoda-tier, and can give Sidious immense strain in a fight. Two of them win every time.

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#12 Posted by thebluedragon20 (101 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see rots sidious being able to take on two of dooku, especially if they had synergy with each other. Anakin wouldn't either

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#13 Posted by ElSebbe (628 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious, mid diff.

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#14 Edited by Kilius (1669 posts) - - Show Bio

It really depends on if Sidious can Force blast Dooku as he did to Maul.

Yoda never used the Force against Dooku and some have taken that to mean the former can't harm him with the Force; at least not with an active guard. Even if you believe Yoda was holding back out of morals I don't really see what's logically going to keep him from subduing Dooku with the Force; Jedi aren't soft, a little pain and rough and tumble isn't against their morals to bring down a foe they want alive. We know in Legends at least Force users with a large gap in power difference can resist Force attacks from their superiors, most notably Bane and Kas'im.

If Sidious can Force blast Dooku at will, then he wins every time with efficiency. If not then I can see the two Dooku's overpowering Sidious collectively with their combined four-handed lightning.

Edit: I'm only considering RotS Sidious here.

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#15 Edited by BaneCapital (1608 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: @elsebbe: @thebluedragon20: @lord_tenebrous: @idrisiangraecus: @wollfmyth209: @amethystgravity: @richard96: @phantomrant: @phantomrant: @breakofdawn: @azureamaterasu: This is against official comicvine rules, where they explicitly forbid Christopher Lee using his stunt double by mentioning the example of a thousand Wolverines bought by Hugh Jackman's dozens of millions he's earned by the X-Men films where he wants to retire after the age of fifty, but it reminds me of a better thread: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/bowser-and-dracula-vs-shadow-and-starkiller-2026266/

Why not have Count Dracula replace a guest appearance of a Star Wars character whose name inspired by the famous role of the great actor portraying him?

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https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/count-dooku-vs-megatron-2015748/

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#16 Posted by Bayman007 (2388 posts) - - Show Bio

Yoda would beat 2 x Dookus, so i guess Sidious can just about manage it

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#17 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

Yoda did use the Force on Dooku though. He caught his lightning with difficulty and hurled it back at Dooku who deflected with ease.

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#18 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2577 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous: Yoda is definitely more powerful, however. By quite a margin at that. That's not to say Dooku wouldn't give him trouble, but I wouldn't use that example to suggest 2 Dooku's could best Sidious.

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#19 Posted by Redshift_Bacon (1334 posts) - - Show Bio

Twice the Pride, DOUBLE THE FALL

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#20 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn:

Obviously Yoda is more powerful, but it's demonstrably not by a large margin at all. We have Dooku directly displaying comparability in power during AOTC in the lightning exchange which was also stated by other sources to be a stalemate, then we have sources saying that Dooku would have become a Master on par with Yoda if he'd not left the Jedi Order. Surely his potential in the DS is not vastly lower than that of his LS potential.

Sidious has done zero to indicate he could take even one Dooku without significant trouble, much less two, while Dooku has in fact shown that he can perform exceptionally well against people of Sidious' tier like Yoda in AOTC when he was exhausted and Mace at Boz Pity when he was past-prime.

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#21 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2577 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous:

Obviously Yoda is more powerful, but it's demonstrably not by a large margin at all. We have Dooku directly displaying comparability in power during AOTC in the lightning exchange which was also stated by other sources to be a stalemate,

We also have Dooku per Dark Rendezvous being forced to retreat by Yoda when he was massively amped by Vjunn's dark side nexus which also weakened Yoda. There are also repeated quotes indicating that Yoda wasn't going on the offence during that fight with his Force abilities (reflected in both the film and the novel), which is why it was a stalemate. There are also quotes indicating Yoda easily overpowered the lightning.

then we have sources saying that Dooku would have become a Master on par with Yoda if he'd not left the Jedi Order.

If I remember correctly, that was talking

Surely his potential in the DS is not vastly lower than that of his LS potential.

Never said that, but it doesn't matter.

Sidious has done zero to indicate he could take even one Dooku without significant trouble, much less two, while Dooku has in fact shown that he can perform exceptionally well against people of Sidious' tier like Yoda in AOTC

Yoda also had the upper hand over him on Vjunn despite being weakened by a dark side nexus that also massively amped Dooku. Even then, Yoda was more powerful.

when he was exhausted

Source?

and Mace at Boz Pity when he was past-prime.

I'd be very interested to know how he was past his prime considering that Dooku himself and many other characters (including Yoda) have stated he grew more powerful and more dangerous with time. Also, that was a pre-prime Mace, and the fight barely lasted 20 seconds or so.

Sidious is > 2 Dooku's, but as I said in my original post it'd be a good or great fight if ROTS or TFU, a good fight if ROTJ, and a decent fight if DE. I definitely agree though that 2 Dooku's would beat pre-ROTS Sidious, probably even stomp him.

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#22 Posted by eri123 (5066 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious.

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#23 Posted by AzureAmaterasu (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous What feats does Dooku have in the force? It is written that he was enormously powerful and skilled in the use of the force, but I don't see it and I never really did... His lightning was useful but it wasn't the kind that burned people to ash. He was strong enough to lift a large object in Geonosis (amped) other than that I can;t think of much other than breaking Anakin's and Obi-wan's force defenses . (Somewhat Debatable) In fact I don't think he fully committed to the dark side the way others like Maul did; in fact he didn't have the classic yellow Sith eyes either.

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#24 Posted by thebluedragon20 (101 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureamaterasu Dooku has lifted several large objects in various comics, and TCW tv show including a shuttle, multiple large obelisks (with ease), collapsed a cave, has constantly tossed many jei around with the force including Anakin, Obi wan, and Sora Bulk. His lightning has been able to fork at multiple opponents and has incapacitated the likes of Ventress, Sora Bulk, Anakin, and has one hit KOed many Clone troopers at once (though this was in a vision created by Sidious, there is no reason why he would not be able to achieve under normal circumstances. He is quite powerful.

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#25 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6530 posts) - - Show Bio

Sids with effort but not much issue.

Fighting two opponents at less than half your strength is not the same as fighting a single opponent with near equal strength.

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#26 Posted by Oraculi (7315 posts) - - Show Bio

In Sabers only I could see the Dooku pair winning 7/10

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#27 Posted by deactivated-5d39a38bf2071 (1018 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Sidious

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#28 Posted by BaneCapital (1608 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Sidious would stomp dozens of Dookus just like Snoke would stomp dozens of elder Han Solos with zero force sentience but just like Snoke tested Kylo with killing Han, Darth Vidious tested Darth Vader with killing Dooku. But not killing their weaker opponents by themselves was for corrupting Anakin and his grandson Ben but it would otherwise be easy for either Darth Sidious or Snoke, respectively, to do the job by themselves instead.

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#29 Edited by Richard96 (5915 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous:

“Mace at Boz Pity when he was past-prime.”

It is stated dooku grew in power throughout the CW.

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#30 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn:

A) In the film, Yoda caught his lightning and threw it back. He was in fact on the offensive, and they stalemated then.

B) In the film, Yoda visibly struggled to force Dooku's lightning back at him, especially compared to the latter's casual deflection of the returned blast. It was clear that there was a level of similarity between the two in power. I'm pretty sure one of the novels says Yoda deflected his lightning "far from easily," which lines up completely with the movie.

C) In order for Sidious to take two Dookus he would have to be far more powerful than them individually. We know as per quotes that Jedi Dooku would have progressed into direct equality with Yoda had he not turned to the DS. Count Dooku's potential in the DS would have to be way lower than that of his LS potential in order for him to stay out of the Yoda tier despite all that power growth since his departure from the Order. So yes, you did say it in a way.

D) The Vjun incident (CW Dooku losing rather badly and swiftly to a holding back Yoda while empowered by a DS nexus) is a C-canon inconsistency that contradicts the events as portrayed in Attack of the Clones(an exhausted Dooku fights Yoda -- who had lethal intent as per the script -- to a draw in a lengthy duel that spanned almost 40 seconds). It could I suppose make sense if Dooku was severely past-prime at that point, which is plausible given that Yoda said later on that his skills had gone backwards to the point where he was no longer a formidable opponent to Yoda.

E) There are a few quotes I don't have time to dig up yet, but it's quite obvious in the movie that he was tired out from his bout with Anakin and Obi-Wan. He heaves with apparent exhaustion upon their defeat.

F) That was 19 bby Mace, basically ROTS Windu, or slightly less. The fight lasted a good amount of panels and we know that comic book fights are always longer than they appear. Dooku has twice stalemated two Sidious-tier fighters in single combat while not at his best.

Imo, Dooku may not be on par with Yoda, Sidious or Mace in lightsaber skill and strength in the Force, but it's not by a large margin: he's definitely in their tier, and Sidious isn't taking down two of one person who can individually hardpress him.

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#31 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean he could not have decreased in lightsaber prowess by the end of the Clone Wars, which was stated by Yoda who practically worshipped his former student, and this is also backed up by the events on Vjun wherein Dooku performs far worse against Yoda than he did against him in AOTC.

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#32 Posted by Kilius (1669 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean he could not have decreased in lightsaber prowess by the end of the Clone Wars, which was stated by Yoda who practically worshipped his former student, and this is also backed up by the events on Vjun wherein Dooku performs far worse against Yoda than he did against him in AOTC.

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Problem is that Dooku retorts he grew more powerful and proceeds to blast Yoda with lightning backing up his claim and undermining Yoda's.

I mean are we really going to take mid-combat taunts as absolute fact when all other evidence points to Dooku growing more powerful, which does carry over to blade work?

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#33 Edited by MyGod000 (936 posts) - - Show Bio

ROTS Sidious wins with some trouble. However, if this is ROTJ Sidious he stomps them hard. a Closer Match up would Dooku x2 Vs Vader. Vader would still win but it is more up in the air than this stomp.

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#34 Edited by Kilius (1669 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku's fight on Vjun wasn't worse at all. The best Dooku did in AotC was hold strong against the initial exchange of Yoda's counterattack. Dooku was defending himself but each time he tried to anticipate where Yoda would go and mount a counterattack, the Jedi master would anticipate him instead, essentially thinking two steps ahead of Dooku despite Dooku's own intimate familiarity with Ataru and it's "ridiculous acrobatics". Frankly, the length of the fight doesn't really change the fact that Dook was being systematically slaughtered.

As for lightning no look again Yoda barely changes his expression whereas Dooku was shocked when he had his own power redirected and was putting his hand on his blade in anticipation of Yoda sending his second burst back.

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#35 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

That's a novel concept that is not found in the movie. Makashi is a mainly defensive form, if he'd been able to actually mount a successful counterattack that would have meant he was better than Yoda. None of this changes the fact that Dooku held strong against Yoda for the entirety of that duel, which ended in a stalemate.

Yoda would also be intimately familiar with Dooku's form, having literally mastered it. This knowledge affords neither side an advantage at all.

The length of the fight absolutely does change it all because if Dooku was being slaughtered the fight wouldn't have been nearly as long as it was.

Dooku was shocked because he thought he had surpassed Yoda, but was disproven.

Yoda's expression is not the indicator, it's the level of strain you can see his arm going through. It's very slow and a heavy push when he shoves the lightning back. Dooku, on the other hand, for all his shock, simply lifts a palm and deflects it.

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#36 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius:

Dooku catches Yoda with lightning while the latter is in midair and vulnerable. And this was right after Yoda physically evaded his attacks.

Soo... Yoda is lying for roast-value? Not to mention, Yoda has a habit of praising Dooku's abilities heavily. Like in AOTC. His word regarding this matter has complete credibility.

Moreover, Yoda said his physical ability and lightsaber skill had decreased. Dooku countered by saying he had grown more powerful. Those two statemenrs aren't mutually exclusive. Dooku is more powerful but also less skilled and less physically fit.

The Force has no bearing on pure lightsaber skill, that Bane passage you're going to cite is an outlier and is internally inconsistent. There is no lightsaber skill on star wars if you're really just trying to reach the point where the Force fights for you instead, without your involvement at all.

Force strength has no influence on a duel save physicals, and it's completely proven that individuals can increase in power yet be less physically powerful(e.g., Ben Kenobi, Ki-Adi Mundi, and Dooku).

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#37 Posted by AzureAmaterasu (617 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by AzureAmaterasu (617 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by thebluedragon20 (101 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureamaterasu He was certainly comparable skill wise, but I think Vader had more raw power.

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#40 Posted by unclenyaxfan77 (5 posts) - - Show Bio

One Dooku is enough

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#41 Posted by Hypnos0929 (6901 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious even if its lightsaber only. We're talking about a guy who's laughably physically superior to savage oppress. I cant image Dooku being able to block anything, he'd have to dodge until they both fall.

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#42 Posted by playerx-tr (683 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Sidious but Dooku x2 stomp Mace, Anakin or Vader.

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#43 Posted by AzureAmaterasu (617 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebluedragon20 Just a random observation but that means - if you think about it - that Jerec is stronger than Dooku.

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#44 Posted by thebluedragon20 (101 posts) - - Show Bio

@azureamaterasu WHy do you say that? what fets does Jerec have that put him on Vader's level?

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#45 Posted by MyGod000 (936 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Sidious but Dooku x2 stomp Mace, Anakin or Vader.

ehh...No. Vader would destroy Two Dooku

Sidious will as well.

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#46 Posted by thebluedragon20 (101 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod000 How will Vader destroy two of dooku? Sidious I can see, but Vader? I can see him taking a majority over one dooku because of his raw power, and superior physical strength but how is he even contenting with two?

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#47 Edited by MyGod000 (936 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebluedragon20 said:

@mygod000 How will Vader destroy two of dooku? Sidious I can see, but Vader? I can see him taking a majority over one dooku because of his raw power, and superior physical strength but how is he even contenting with two?

I understand where you are coming from. Yes, Sidious is a God in Star wars, let be clear here before we get into this. Vader is a better Duelist than Sidious.

Much better, now people will disagree I understand...but let all agree that Vader Killed Sidious.

I mean like seriously...what is Dooku going to do to Vader hit him with force lightning LMFAO? Lord Vader is nearly equal to Sidious.

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#48 Posted by thebluedragon20 (101 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod000 Im sorry but how is vader a better duelist than the guy that killed three council members in a few seconds, fought evenly with Yoda, and all the other crap Sidious did? I don't mean to sound condescending. I am genuinely curious to know how you came to the conclusion that Vader is better than either Sidious or Dooku.

And yes, Dooku most likely will utilize lightning against vader.

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#49 Posted by MyGod000 (936 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod000 Im sorry but how is vader a better duelist than the guy that killed three council members in a few seconds, fought evenly with Yoda, and all the other crap Sidious did? I don't mean to sound condescending. I am genuinely curious to know how you came to the conclusion that Vader is better than either Sidious or Dooku.

And yes, Dooku most likely will utilize lightning against vader.

Sidious Stop Training with Lightsabers, he only saw them as just a tool to insult the Jedi. compared to Vader he sucked.

Vader was a gift given to Sidious by the divine, Sidious even said Vader was his best Apprentice ever.

Clearly above Dooku.

all those Jedi Master Sidious Killed were pretty fodder the only one that was worth anything was Mace, Qui-Gon would have been a Master that just tells you how poor the Jedi had gotten.

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Vader>>>Sidious>>>>>>everyone else.

Force Lightning from Dooku means nothing when Vader has Tanked Sidious force Lightning and Full might. Vader can easily just tank it or block it with Lightsaber or Tutaminis

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#50 Posted by thebluedragon20 (101 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod000 That scan is from a most popular list, not most skilled, ans as for Sidious saying Vader was his best apprentice, if your talking about the comic quote he labeled maul as "A loss" and dooku as "a proton torpedo, useful but disposable". That does not imply that he thought Vader superior either of them ( though he most likely was).

All of those jedi Sidious killed were not fodder at all, they were hailed as some of the best saber dualists in the order. Qui gon was more of a spiritual jedi than a physical one. He was in tune with the force, but not the best combatant.

IMO its more like Sidious>=Yoda>>>>>>everyone else.