Count Dooku vs Mustafar Obi Wan

Well, in fact, there's really no such thing as "Mustafar Obi-Wan" -- not unless one refers to Obi-Wan Kenobi's emotional hindrance brought about by the unique circumstances of having to battle his practical brother, the corrupted Anakin Skywalker. The only genuinely positive shift in Obi-Wan Kenobi's base abilities that occurs in the short time period Revenge of the Sith comprises, would be immediately following the death of Count Dooku. A mysterious amplification, and the only one. On Mustafar, Skywalker had every ounce of his typical power and skill with him, and then some -- and he held the upper hand for much of the duel thereby. However, he lacked Kenobi's cunning and inner clarity, and thus proved unable to follow through with any advantage. In the end, Kenobi outfoxed the younger man, and that's that.

And in that same continuity, Obi-Wan outmatched Count Dooku even prior to the mysterious amplification. Demonstrated noticeably greater speed and lightsaber prowess. Dooku managed to work around this and dispatch the Jedi Master nevertheless, but that was through Dooku's own considerable cleverness and experience. I imagine the elder Dooku could again outmaneuver Kenobi, as Kenobi outmaneuvered Skywalker, but I'm uncertain. Regardless, in the context of the Revenge of the Sith senior novelization, Kenobi is a quicker, stronger, and more proficient swordsman than Dooku at any point in this story's timeframe.

Using Count Dooku as he is portrayed in the wider old legends EU, he ought to prevail over Kenobi in a tough match. He has every advantage, and this was true even before he joined the Sith, as Kenobi himself essentially conceded.

Clearly, in the films, Count Dooku is just superior. In canon continuity EU, I'm inclined to favour Obi-Wan, as his portrayal relative to Anakin seems to consistently overshadow Dooku's.

Current Kenobi negs in canon now lol

This fight already happened:

Dooku wins again.

^ this

Mustafar Kenobi is basically exactly the same as IH Kenobi. Him miraculously surpassing Dooku is just a headcanon excuse Anakin/Vader wankers use for his poor performance against Kenobi on Mustafar.

Round 1 is Doku 9/10. Round 2 is Kenobi 6/10.

Dooku already defeated a version slighty weaker.

Dooku wins.

kenobi needs to be OWK or rebels/ANH to beat dooku .

mustafar obi wan is tailored to counter RoTS vader
but against enemies like dooku he would perform the same as he did at IH .

I’ve thought about this battle a lot and I’m firm in believing that Kenobi wins.

Having reviewed all the canonical sources on the Mustafar fight, a few things are clear:

• Anakin’s power is not lesser on Mustafar. He’s described as being “fully immersed“ into the dark side, with his evil growing stronger. He “uses his force abilities to his fullest extent“
• To add to the above, there is no hindrance. He’s stated as ”not holding back” against Kenobi and that his pain and despair “give him an advantage that Kenobi could not hope to match”. Whatever emotions he’s experiencing are described as an advantage to him, per the junior novel

Gallery

There simply isn’t any real evidence that he’s weaker on Mustafar than he is as KFV. We are talking about a dozen official sources here. Having said this:

• All the sources also state that Anakin is indeed more powerful than Obi Wan. This is stated by GL but also printed into canon books. Obi Wan’s experience and skill counter Anakin‘s superior power

• Tying into the above, the infamous “equal force push“ moment doesn’t mean they’re fully = to one another. Given that all the sources which remark on Anakin being non hindered etc also state that he’s more powerful. What this means is that for a brief moment, Obi Wan was able to contest him in the force. Obi is also attacking Anakin with the force here, so it’s Anakin pushing to block
• Despite being less powerful than Anakin, he is able to contest Anakin’s strength in a contest of arms

Now, does this mean that Anakin is at his best?

• I think there’s enough evidence to show he isn’t fighting at his combative peak. KFV is “cold and calculated” whereas MFV is fighting emotionally. Official BTS for ROTS states this:

• So MFV has the power and stats of KFV, but not the focus or control. If KFV and Yoda/Sidious are 10s, MFV is more akin to a 9.1-9.2
• Kenobi is able to contest his strength and hold up against him. Whereas Dooku is straight up bullied by Anakin to the extent that Anakin physically holds his hands in place and stomps him

This begs to question, how did Kenobi grow?

• Kenobi is stated to have “lost his fear” against Grievous. This canonically buffs FUs. Kanan is said to “lose his fear” against GI. Cere also loses her fear against Vader. Rather than the FUs actually becoming stronger, it’s moreso the case that they’ve always been that strong. But that clearing the mental block allows them to access this latent power
• So either Anakin became massively nerfed or Kenobi grew. There’s far more evidence for the latter than former

But what about Dooku beating him?

• The junior novel states that Kenobi is off guarded by Dooku. With another book re-affirming this as a “dirty trick”. As we have established that Mustafar Kenobi >> IH Kenobi, we have growth + off guard established

Kenobi’s much stronger physically, has greater reserves and is more powerful in the force. I’d also contend that his Soresu will not be pierced by Dooku in a 1v1, as it’s said that him and Anakin fight contrary to form on the IH. So Kenobi wins in a decent fight. Yoda/Sidious/KFV though > Kenobi.

Dooku murders Kenobi once he loses his plot armor.

What do you mean plot armour?

Mustafar Kenobi isn't a thing, Dooku beats him as usual.

If Mustafar Kenobi isn’t a thing, then neither is hindered Anakin. FUs losing their fear is canonically established in lore as buffing FUs.

Dooku already defeated him

Just to further add to my post, on the concept of “letting go of fear“. It’s said that Kenobi let’s go of his fear on Utapa:

We know that this is established in lore, as seen in Jedi Survivor when Cere goes to Vader tier:

Further re-affirmed with Kanan, who goes from sub GI to > GI:

More evidence has been presented to suggest that Kenobi grew rather than Anakin being weakened.

Kenobi.

the whole mustafar fight is just PIS that gets overanalyzed waaaay toooo much .

lets face it - the only reason kenobi was able to beat MFV is
because the plot of the OT needed to happen so it could not go any other way
although it was massively stupid from the scaling perspective .

so writers as well as viewers are trying to spin it around coming up with various excuses , explanations and
justifications as to why it was possible for a sub dooku level character to beat a character who is
canonically equal or superior to yoda and sidious .

at any random encounter (with no plot armour) MFV/KFV would no diff./low.diff RoTS kenobi in the force and
mid/high diff. him in sabers if for some reason he chooses to go for a duel .

as it stands we are left with these excuses:

- anakin was massively hindered / nerfed for this fight
- obi wan won due to being very familiar with anakins style and his own style being a perfect counter to MFVs
- obi - wan won due to anakins arrogance

or

- obi wan grew vastly more powerful
(which makes no sense since he is one of the lesser gifted jedi in terms of potential
which he had to compensate for with hard work and his mastery of soresu - so i don´t see him growing
from being ragdoll material for dooku to being equal to RoTS titans in mere days (because it is nonsense) .

OT: dooku wins just like he already did on multiple occasions (most notably IH)

Kenobi wins in a good or decent fight.

In a 1v1 he can play his soresu game instead of having to press the attack. Peak Kenobi does to make mistakes and his soresu leaves no openings for Dooku to exploit. He can stonewall him and his physicals are superior.

That was a really cool tcw animation for Kenobi

Kenobi wins high diff

I don’t buy the idea of “Mustafar” Kenobi. There is a ROTS Kenobi, but that’s it.

Dooku wins. Obi Wan was outmatched when fighting Dooku with Anakin.

Obi wans really inconsistent. He goes from struggling with grevious to being near equals with mfv. My opinion on this fight is either dooku high diff or obi wan high diff. Atm I'm going with obi wan because frozen trounced me in this specific debate.

You haven’t put forward a case as to why MF Kenobi isn’t viable. I’ve cited canon sources which affirm that losing fear buffs FUs. Your claim that Zonakin is sub KFV is also completely based on head canon. See my below post and also post 61, about a dozen sources say Mustafar Anakin isn’t hindered.

Below shows that “losing fear” is a precedent for allowing FUs to become stronger.

Kenobi goes relative to an Anakin that is >> Dooku.

@frozen said:

Just to further add to my post, on the concept of “letting go of fear“. It’s said that Kenobi let’s go of his fear on Utapa:

We know that this is established in lore, as seen in Jedi Survivor when Cere goes to Vader tier:

Further re-affirmed with Kanan, who goes from sub GI to > GI:

Obi-Wan has superior physicals and is likely more outright powerful. That being said, Dooku has mastery on a level that he can bypass power gaps to an extend and is smart enough to not mindlessly continue attacking Kenobi and tiring himself out. He is also a very poor match-up for Kenobi stylistically. So it comes down to one of three scenarios:

1. Dooku baits Obi-Wan into overextending and dismisses him, similarly to his duel with Yoda on Tatooine or the situation on the Invisible Hand
2. Obi-Wan manages to tire Dooku out and manages to land a hit via counter-attack
3. Both realize the futility of attacking each other and they kind of just stand around awkwardly, neither willing to commit to an offense. Although that would eventually lead to either 1 or 2 if neither is allowed to retreat.

Of the three scenarios, I consider 1 to be the most likely.

I appreciate Frozen finally catching onto Obi-Wan wank, however.

Kenobi Mid diff

Dooku again. Just takes longer since Kenobi isn't forced into offensive tactics as part of covering Skywalker to leave openings.

Dooku beats him same as he did before.

womp womp

Dooku still outclasses him.

Not really, MF Kenobi matched Dark Side Anakin who stomped Dooku and is confirmed to be far more powerful than him. He wins.

Obi still looses. Dooku’s knowledge on his style has allowed him to exploit Obi’s openings in the past and Obi isn’t that much better than Dooku at this point.

Kenobi wins mid diff. His battles against Dooku are often overused, and not contextualized correctly.

Dooku does not stand a chance, to be frank. Kenobi is significantly more powerful, and has the offensive output to drive back OWK Vader (who is MFV caliber duelist). This Kenobi is on par with MFV and can press MFV if he chose to fight offensively. The gap between KFV and Dooku is massive. Dooku is outclassed in the force, offense, defense and every physical attribute.

I suggest you read here - Kenobi can drive back KFV if he chose to fight like that -

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/explaining-pre-pit-obi-wan-vs-vader-and-how-it-com-2332849/

He is also near equal to KFV in the force.

Nope. He gets slammed.

@frozen: I disagree with MFV scaling to KFV or Zonakin (For the record, I do still believe that MFV is > Jedi Anakin). All the quotes for MFV being fully committed to the Dark side in his fight with Obi-wan are contradicted by the fact that he lost his Sith eyes before the fight and only regains them after Obi cut him in half.

KFV and Zonakin don’t have the eyes either but Zonakin stomping Dooku is a quantifiablely better feat than matching MFK (Since MFK relies on scaling to MFV) and KFV scales above Zonakin.

I always thought he just held them back to not appear monsterous to Padme, she would probably notice her Husband's eyes being yellow, neither KFV nor Zonakin have Sith Eyes anyway.

@maulsmacker: If that was the case, his eyes would’ve went back to the Sith yellow way before he got cut in half. Besides, we see him lose the sith eyes before Padme arrives on Mustafar IIRC (when he’s crying about what he’s done).

Yes, KFV and Zonakin don’t have the eyes but Zonakin has a much better feat than matching MFK and KFV scales above that feat.

Obi wan curbstomps the fodder

@jedisympathiz3r: Not always having the sith eyes doesn't mean a nerf tho, there is no canon source to my knowledge which as much as implies Anakin was nerfed on Mustafar, instead their are sources implying he was stronger.

MFK fought off OWK Vader which is definitely any Anakin in ROTS, MFK lost but did very good against a stronger Vader, it adds in consistency.

@maulsmacker: Considering that he lost his Sith eyes directly because he was conflicted, it should mean he’s nerfed in this case.

OWK Vader is only confirmed to be above any version of Anakin in terms of raw power and in that regard, he’s demonstrably significantly superior to MFK as well.

His emotions are directly stated to amp him

@jedisympathiz3r: I disagree, the intent seems to be the conflict dissapeared when he saw Kenobi and in a moment he went to so much rage and hate that his choked his pregnant wife.

he is likened to DS Anakin in duelling, and canon has dueling and force power directly interwined by the concept of force guiding the blade so I don't think he should be an inferior swordsmen anyway.

Dooku in my heart

Obi in reality.

@ieatnettles: Are you referencing to the Junior novelization?

Idk I'll show u the statement now

@maulsmacker: That’s the intent of some guidebooks. The movie goes out of its way to show Anakin gaining the Sith eyes, losing them in the crying scene, and then regaining them after getting burned by Obi-wan. The only purpose of this would be to show that Anakin is intended to not have fully given into the dark during his fight with Obi-wan.

Which version of DS Anakin are you talking about?

Dueling and force power being intertwined is contradicted by the first half of the OWK E6 Vader vs Obi-wan duel. Their skill is practically equal but Vader overpowers Obi in a tk battle without that much effort.

@jedisympathiz3r: Disagree, it is meant to show that Anakin is feeling fear and vulnerabiliies as well, but that rather amplifies him, Zonakin has zero sith eyes and is just tapping into DS a bit, there is no way the chlld killing pregrant wife choking Anakin on Mustafar fighting to desperately to cut off his past is weaker than Zonakin.

all versions.

Vader could just have a terrible base form so force amplification doesn't matter, he still went sabers with MFK for a long period of time like MFV did, their feats are the same in duelling too.

The whole point of Count Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-wan fights was that Obi-wan couldn’t and never will Beat Dooku without Anakin. And Whether that was because of Makashi countering Soresu or Dooku knowing Obi-wan down to the Book because of Qui-gon jinn Similarities is up for Debate. But There’s no version of Obi-wan who could Beat Tyranus. Anakin, Windu, and Yoda were the only ones.

@poedameronsbutt: not correct. Mustafar kenobi is more than enough to slam dooku. Kenobi is not forced to use soresu, so it doesn’t matter if Malachi counters it. In fact, the ROTS novelization stated that Dooku couldn’t outduel kenobi during their duel on ROTS, since he added some ataru and shii Cho to his style, to back up his weakness against makashi. Mustafar kenobi is also pretty much above dooku in force power, being able to match anakin’s force push as well as being able to not being ragdolled by him.

MFK > IH Dooku, let alone prime kenobi who can probably ragdoll him with the force, more brutally than when he did it to Vader in KS.