Count Dooku (RotS) vs Darth Maul (TPM) & Darth Vader (ANH)

Count Dooku

vs...

Darth Vader & Darth Maul

Rules

• ANH Vader and TPM Maul work together with the goal of destroying Dooku in a fight to the death.
• Standard morals and equipment.
• Location of their fight is outside of Dooku's palace i.e. where Dooku was training Savage to use the Force to lift pillars.
• No BFRs.
• Vader's knowledge of Dooku's tactics and technique is removed, because he hasn't got knowledge of Vader's or Maul's.
• All-out fight; duelling and all Force powers are allowed.

This is mainly Legends feats, because Canon Vader and Legends/old EU Vader are fundamentally different. And if anyone spams this thread with the "HUR DUR LEGENDS VADER IS SUB-TPM KENOBI!" meme then I'm going to ban George Lucas statements.

@thevivas: @alextheboss: @lord_tenebrous: @idrisiangraecus: @mygod000: @kilius: @emmafrostxmen: @richard96: @darthwill3: @i_like_swords:

so basically just Legends and EU material?

Yes, movies and TCW are also allowed, except the ST.

Vader solos

Vader solos

TPM Maul is below Dooku by a solid margin and ANH Vader doesn't really have any showings to suggest he's on Dooku's level. He'll be hard pressed in sabers, tho Tyrannus can pull off 6-7/10

How is ANH Vader soloing in legends? He is likely sub TPM Maul.

Dooku should win

Dooku obliterates via Resurrection and SoD Scaling

....... What?

Team of course

Dooku stomps, Vader & Maul are little better than prequel Council members.

@yousufkhan1212: Dooku >>> SoD Maul >>>> Tpm Maul ~ Vader basically.

@idrisiangraecus: I'm assuming you're using the Talzin & Maul vs Sidious & Maul Force battle, is that correct?

@yousufkhan1212: Yeah. But also referencing Mace's belief Dooku is the master.

@idrisiangraecus: I wouldn't say that's sufficient proof of a massive gap because Maul was only involved the Lightning battle for a short moment, Talzin did draw some of his strength but she quickly shoved him aside with a Force push, so it's not like Maul was expending the same amount of power that Dooku was, especially when taking into account that Dooku was still unleashing Lighting even after Maul got removed by Talzin. What further cements this is that Dooku and Sidious were unleashing Force Lightning in that battle, Talzin was unleashing her magicks Lightning, whereas Maul wasn't using Lightning at all, and Force Lightning expends a lot of energy from its user.

And Mace believing that Dooku is Maul's master might have something to do with the fact that Dooku is Maul's senior by roughly 5 decades.

Maul alone is going to give Dooku all he can handle. He's never match up well against pressure fighters. AOTC Anakin was able to 'exhaust' Dooku and lost mainly due to his inexperience. Maul is just as aggressive and then some, more powerful, and has better technique and mental fortitude than Anakin. He can do a lot worse. And it's no good bringing up the Qui-Gon scaling. Qui-Gon is a great come forward fighter and built like a tank. Dooku isn't. Styles make fights and Dooku isn't better than everyone below him technically in every facet.

ANH Vader is below TPM Kenobi even without Lucas statements via feats, but he's helpful and probably seals the deal from Maul if he plays the role of the distraction. It's no shame being below TPM Kenobi or Jinn. Vader is past his best and mentally resigned at this stage in his life. It's just TPM Kenobi gets underrated. People act like he's some 16 year old Padawan who's barely started his training, when in reality he's a fully matured 25 year old, who's one of the more promising prospects, who's completed his training, in his physical prime, probably long overdue for a promotion, and at the top of his game mentally. Vader by comparison is a tired crippled mentally shot old war horse.

Don't know honestly. This location gives Dooku a good advantage. Dooku can solo any version of Maul with quite a bit of difficulty in a neutral battlefield but the presence of Vader as well makes this difficult. I believe ANH Vader is past his prime at this point and is beginning to face a decline.

Honestly depends. He might edge it out because of home territory and he is individually better than either of them but both of them together could overwhelm him. We know very well Dooku doesn't have it easy with fighters that love to press the offense against him and especially ones that take advantage of their strength to pressure him and tire him out. Maul as of TPM can certainly do this to a good extent. Not to the level of ROTS Anakin or any other time Anakin has fought Dooku in the second half of TCW but well enough that it will cause the Count difficulty. Vader is also capable of doing this. Both of them together can probably beat him but the location is an important factor too.

Undecided. I will wait for more convincing arguments in the thread to draw a conclusion.

Dooku in an amazing fight. I don't think ANH Vader is to impressive.

I think it isn't a hard conclusion to make that contributing to the actual lightning battle with force lightning of your own (Dooku) does a lot more to shift the balance of Sidious vs Talzin than just lending your strength (Maul). Dooku is also stronger in the force than Maul so even in the hypothetical scenario Maul does know how to use lightning to help out, Talzin may still lose and force Maul away to save him.

Considering it has been canonically stated that Maul as of TCW and then SoD is superior to his TPM iteration, Dooku > TCW/SoD Maul means he would take a significant lead over TPM Maul. But this is not a stomp. Even a 1v1 isn't a stomp and this includes Vader.

Vader wins he is just too much for Dooku.

Luke stated Joruuc has the same level of killing Power as Sidious. Yet he still stated Vader and ROTJ Sidious far more powerful than him. Joruuc gave a 6 year Post ROTJ Luke one of the hardest fights of his life.

Vader feats in legends are all over the place, but what is consistent is his statements of him being rival to ROTJ Sidious.

as well as statements that put him in the Sidious Tier of power.

Either way.

...... What??

I'm not disputing that Dooku is more powerful than Maul, I'm just disputing the disparity because I find it to be fundamentally flawed because Force Lightning channels so much Force energy through the user's limbs at a fast pace, Maul was merely trying to give Talzin his strength at an unknown pace, Maul wasn't helping Talzin out for the same length of time that Dooku was helping Sidious because Maul got kicked out of the fight by Talzin.

Yes, I agree with you. But, referring to what I stated previously, wouldn't you agree that shooting your own force lightning to shift the balance of the lightning battle does more than simply lending your power to one of the lightning battle participants? In this case I mean Dooku is helping more than Maul is. Maul isn't doing less because he doesn't want to help more but that's just as much as he can do.

@void_reborn: I guess so, what ability was Maul using to transfer his power? I'm trying to say that if Talzin hadn't kicked Maul out, both Maul and Talzin would've lasted longer against Sidious and Dooku, but still would've died. Talzin Force pushed Maul because she was aware that delaying the inevitable was futile and that they both would've died, and she also cared about Maul, given that he was her son.

Most people who say that Legends Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi are deliberately trolling the forums, I found the meme to be funny at first but it got real old, real fast. So since it's my thread, I have the authority to ban George Lucas statements to stop this meme from clogging up the forums. You're the only one who's made a serious case, so good on you.

TPM Kenobi is a hungry prodigy for sure, but I find the holistic intent comparison fundamentally flawed because ANH Vader's lack of ambition to reawaken his lost Force potential and overthrow Palpatine stems from him eventually coming to terms with the reality that he lost that chance when he got cut to pieces and burnt like a kebab on Mustafar, losing so many of the Midichlorians that made him special. Losing the ambition to think you still retain your Palpatine+ potential and accepting you will always be subordinate to Palpatine isn't unimpressive because Palpatine is a freaking powerhouse who only Mace and Yoda defeated in a sword fight, and Palpatine has repeatedly been labelled as the most powerful Sith of all time by in-universe and out of universe sources, which is very telling of how high he is considered on the food chain. I'd also like to say that it's not like ANH Vader had much competition, the only opponent that he ever encountered as of ANH was Ben Kenobi, who Vader is obsessed with, but suffers from PTSD over what Kenobi did to him on Mustafar. Not to mention, StarWars.com and the Dark Horse Publisher says that ANH Vader is ambitious and focused like TPM Maul.

In this match up, Vader and Maul are going to be fighting Dooku. I think it's safe to say that Vader's going to be furious at the mere sight of a living and breathing Dooku, especially when considering that Vader killed Dooku 19 years prior, so he won't be lazy at all.

Yep.

as I mentioned above Joruus is stated to have the same type of killing powers as Sidious. Luke 6 years Post ROTJ struggled hard to defeat him. Luke stated Vader and Sidious>>>>>>Joruus.

The only reason Jorcuus didn't do more is because he lacks the motivation to take control over the Galaxy like Sidious did.

You are correct. That's exactly why Talzin force pushed Maul in the first place. She foresaw their defeat was inevitable and decided to save him instead of letting both of them die.

Vader Solos

no...he is TPM Kenobi level. Luke 6 years after ROTJ stated Vader and Sidious are the two strongest foes he ever faced, even after being warned in a dream by Obi-wan about Jorcuus, who has the same killing lightning as Sidious.

I could put Jorcuus on Dooku tiers just from that alone. Luke still stated Vader>>>>>>>Jorcuus.

@kilius:

Maul alone is going to give Dooku all he can handle. He's never match up well against pressure fighters.

Pressure fighting is the only kind of aggressive lightsaber fighting there is. Dooku's style is primarily defensive, and he can't handle pressure fighters? That would make him, as a duelist -- pardon my Greek -- trash.

Not necessarily. Dooku most likely based on all available evidence is a better pure duelist than Maul in terms of technical skills and battle IQ. He's a supreme master of blade manipulation, footwork, and acumen. He's a chess master. He aims to control the flow of the fight, to dictate the range and the tempo, to control his opponents movement position them and catch them when they are at their most vulnerable while at the same time making sure he himself is in the best position to advance and retreat as necessary. In boxing terms it's known as ring generalship and I think it's a good analogy for Dooku's main approach to battle.

Very few would beat Dooku in a tactical battle at his controlled pace. The key to victory is to make him work a pace he isn't comfortable with. When you take the play away from him, and force him to expend all his energies and mental resources on defending himself, and expose his limited gas tank and relative lack of forward momentum. That's what happens when the outboxer meets the swarmer. AotC Anakin had the right idea and RotS Anakin followed up on it and perfected it.

I'm not suggesting all pressure fighters can beat Dooku - while styles do make fights there are also levels to this. But if someone like AotC Anakin can seriously put the pressure on Dooku and in the words of most Dooku fans to hype his Yoda fight 'exhaust' him, then I'm willing to beat someone with better technique, more experience, and mental fortitude can probably drag Dooku into even deeper waters.

@kilius: The same Fact Files that say Yoda's fight with Dooku was exhausting literally says that Dooku caught his breath a sentence later, so he was basically winded. And yeah, Makashi is an offensive and defensive form:

"Masters of Form II developed unique offenses and defenses, and trained studiously against having their weapons taken or damaged." -- Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force.

You see this in Dooku employ offensive and defensive tactics in his version of Makashi in his fight with Skywalker and Kenobi in S6. So Dooku is not a trash duelist for being hard pressed by pressure fighters.

@yousufkhan1212:

I too don't really think Dooku was exhausted either, at least not in the strictest sense. Winded yes, but exhausted? Nah it's an oversimplification most likely. Anakin did pressure Dooku though and I'm willing to betTPM Maul can do more. Can TPM Maul beat Dooku on his own? Not sure. But with Vaders help I'm sure he can.

As for #31 fair points. Much of my reasoning is speculative admittingly and perhaps at odds with a few OOU quotes if what you say is accurate. I know the out of universe reasoning for Vader's inconsistency is the two conflicting narratives, but feats are feats I agree with the PTSD stuff, I think Vader should be able to beat Ben who's certainly the more faded of the two but I still think TPM Kenobi can beat ANH Vader based on him being superior in my eyes to Luke.

Could go either way tbh i'm more tempted to say the duo though due to numbers and physicality and speed of Maul and Vader's force powers though Dooku has a shot at winning a duel somewhat easily.

That's completely reasonable. Dooku was exhausted in the sense that he was winded, not that his Force reserves had been depleted, given that it talks about Dooku catching his breath between defeating Anakin and fighting Yoda. Being physically tired and depleted Force reserves are not one and the same.

The two conflicting narratives are how suited Vader compares to pre-suit Vader/Anakin IIRC, some quotes say he's more powerful, some say he is less powerful. I don't believe he's more powerful because he failed to speed blitz TPM Maul. Here are the sources saying ANH Vader is focused and ambitious:

"Ladies and Gentlemen! Boys and Girls! Droids and Jawas! Prepare yourselves for the battle of the century! In this corner, weighing in at 220 pounds, the terror from Tatooine, the Dark Lord of the Sith, the former Anakin Skywalker -- DARTH VADER! And in this corner, weighing in at 175 pounds, a killer of Jedi, the Naboo Annihilator, Darth Sidious' #1 apprentice -- DARTH MAUL! Make sure you're here on September 12th, 2001 for the answer to the question on everyone's lips: "Who's tougher? Vader or Maul?" Let the BATTLE begin!

Darth Maul had a screen time of approximately fifteen minutes in EPISODE I, but his fame is hardly over. Maul has, by far, been the character most requested by our readers to further explore. How to do it? Easy. Have him knuckle up against Darth Vader. Maul is vicious, physical, and primal. Vader is focused and calculating...but still has the faintest trace of humanity. Both have succumbed to the Dark Side of the force. Both are ambitious. But Sith law says there's only room for one." -- StarWars.com Cargo Bay: Star Wars Tales #9 Description

"Ladies and Gentlemen! Boys and Girls! Droids and Jawas! Prepare yourselves for the battle of the century! In this corner, weighing in at 220 pounds, the terror from Tatooine, the Dark Lord of the Sith, the former Anakin Skywalker -- DARTH VADER! And in this corner, weighing in at 175 pounds, a killer of Jedi, the Naboo Annihilator, Darth Sidious' #1 apprentice -- DARTH MAUL! Make sure you're here on September 12th, 2001 for the answer to the question on everyone's lips: "Who's tougher? Vader or Maul?" Let the BATTLE begin!

Darth Maul had a screen time of approximately fifteen minutes in EPISODE I, but his fame is hardly over. Maul has, by far, been the character most requested by our readers to further explore. How to do it? Easy. Have him knuckle up against Darth Vader. Maul is vicious, physical, and primal. Vader is focused and calculating...but still has the faintest trace of humanity. Both have succumbed to the Dark Side of the force. Both are ambitious. But Sith law says there's only room for one." -- Dark Horse Publisher's Summary

And why do you think that TPM Kenobi is better than Luke? Has he got some scaling from Luke that I've never heard of?

@yousufkhan1212:

Vader failing to speed blitz maul doesn't say he is less powerful. However, it proves he is much much slower than Anakin.

under the narrative that Sidious wanted someone at least as powerful as him or more powerful...if Vader was truly that weak Sidious would have replaced him as soon as possible. the maul fight happened if I am not mistaken a few years before Ep 4. which is almost 2 Decades. Sidious wouldn't have waited that long if Vader was that broken down.

Vader has something called Force reserves/augmentation, if his Force reserves were better than pre-suit Vader's, it should be more than enough to compensate for his cybernetics.

I never said that Vader was weak, just that it's reasonable that the quotes saying that he's less powerful than pre-suit Vader are reliable and support his showings. The Maul fight took place shortly before ANH, which is only 4 years away from his prime.

Okay...but you said Vader couldn't blitz maul. note that Vader has struggled with many jedi in light saber duels. However, the moment Vader starts using the force he effortlessly stomps them and raggdolls them.

This is why I agree that Vader is weaker Lightsaber duelist than anakin was...but in the force he is more powerful.

@kilius:

If Dooku can't handle an aggressive duelist fighting to the best of their ability and has to control the pace or he'll fall apart, that makes him a limited, stiff and still trash fighter.

Makashi is the ultimate refinement of lightsaber dueling and Dooku is the ultimate master of Makashi. What you're saying makes no sense within the wider lore. If Dooku can't handle pressure fighters, he's not a good fighter and his style is poor in dueling.

@mygod000:

Vader didn't struggle against her. He struck at her, she blocked once and her blade shorted out his lightsaber, so he just used the Force.

@yousufkhan1212:

Makashi may have offensive elements but it is still primarily defensive:

Form II is elegant, akin to a refined fencing technique. It even includes formal salutes between combatants. Form II does not focus on attack, but rather economic movement in defensive parries.

-- Fightsaber

he didn't blitz her which is my over all point, and the second he used the force he owned her pretty easy.

@lord_tenebrous said:@kilius:

If Dooku can't handle an aggressive duelist fighting to the best of their ability and has to control the pace or he'll fall apart, that makes him a limited, stiff and still trash fighter.

No it just means he doesn't match up well against pressure fighters. Just like Kenobi doesn't match up well against patient tactically minded duelists; forcing him into the role of the aggressor when he prefers to be the counterpuncher, and Anakin doesn't match up well against stalwart defensive fighters. Doesn't make them trash it just means they all have their limitations that can be exposed.

Makashi is the ultimate refinement of lightsaber dueling and Dooku is the ultimate master of Makashi.

Basically the equivalent of the outboxer - the ultimate refinement of boxing - yet they don't tend to match up well against swarmers of a similar level. Bit of a cliché but styles DO make fights.

What you're saying makes no sense within the wider lore.

Dooku's always struggled against pressure fighters who make him fight at a pace he isn’t comfortable with. So not really.

If Dooku can't handle pressure fighters, he's not a good fighter and his style is poor in dueling.

No because not all lightsaber duelists are pressure fighters and not all pressure fighters are on Anakin and Maul's level.

@kilius:

No it just means he doesn't match up well against pressure fighters.

In other words, literally any aggressive duelist. Weak against any practitioner of Shi-Cho, Djem So, Ataru, Jar'Kai, Niman, and Juyo. The overwhelming majority of styles. That makes Dooku a stiff, extremely limited duelist whose expertise is in external aspects of a fight. Blade to blade, that makes him trash.

and Anakin doesn't match up well against stalwart defensive fighters.

Anakin matches well against anyone. His form is designed to overwhelm a defense. Like any other aggressive form. Defensive forms are designed to withstand an attack. There is no stylistic edge to be had, it just comes down to who is more skilled.

Doesn't make them trash it just means they all have their limitations that can be exposed.

If Dooku, whose style is primarily defensive, doesn't do well against aggressive fighters, then he is trash.

Basically the equivalent of the outboxer - the ultimate refinement of boxing - yet they don't tend to match up well against swarmers of a similar level. Bit of a cliché but styles DO make fights.

Boxing is not fencing, if you can't handle an attack then you aren't a good duelist.

Dooku's always struggled against pressure fighters. So not really.

Quinlan Vos, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Grievous, Asajj Ventress. The only people Dooku struggles against are fighters like Mace and Yoda who are actually comparable to him in skill.

No because not all lightsaber duelists are pressure fighters and not all pressure fighters are on Anakin and Maul's level.

The only lightsaber duelists who aren't pressure fighters are Shien, Makashi and Soresu stylists who are all defensive fighters.

Makashi is supposed to be the form for lightsaber dueling, and Dooku is the ultimate posterboy for Makashi, but he can't handle one of the most fundamental aspects of dueling? That makes no sense and would make him a poor duelist.