Count Dooku joins Maul and Savage against Darth Sidious

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ponamis999

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Poll Count Dooku joins Maul and Savage against Darth Sidious (69 votes)

Trio wins 36%
Sidious still demolishes 42%
Even throw in CW Ventress, Grievous and Pre Vizsla and Sidious still wrecks 17%
Don't know 1%
Result 3%
No Caption Provided

The Senate confronts the Zabrak brothers on Mandalore but now finds that CW Dooku is also present and allied with the duo against him.

As usual all abilities allowed (Sabers, Force, Force Lightning).

Who wins in this alternate scenario?

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Void_Reborn

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@hypnos0929:

he's never shown to be an intense/fast pace fighter.

Well yeah, that isn't how he fights. Dooku is the master of Makashi; a usually defensive style. Even so, it's never been flashy, intense and overly speedy in how it is performed. It doesn't mean he can't though. Dooku is relatively knowledgeable in all of the forms noted by how he trained Grievous in every single one of them.

Yoda and him fought, but that was mostly about reactionary speed

Yeah but you can't really use that against him. It's like saying Kenobi's feat defending against Grievous' overwhelming onslaught was just reactionary speed and then concluding he is incapable of keeping up with duelists like Maul or Savage. Yet, he fended both of them off at the same time, even gaining an advantage after being pressed against the wall. Also considered an incredible defensive duelist and possibly the best user of Soresu that ever lived.

he fought anakin and Obi Wan which was still pretty short and left him tired, if I remember correctly.

If you're referring to Episode 2, that fight wasn't that short either. Although Dooku is tiers above them at that point, he is noticeably pre-prime as the Clone Wars have yet to begin. Anakin is still someone that never ceases to press Dooku even when he was simply a padawan. Him getting tired is normal. Even after dismembering and defeating the duo, he matched Yoda evenly in the force and contended with Yoda for their duel before making an escape, being outmatched.

In another duel later during The Clone Wars against both Obi-Wan and Anakin with all of them vastly improving since their previous 2v1, he was still taking the upper hand against both of them at the same time before the Pikes intervened. Even during Episode III, Dooku managed to duel them both to a standstill before gaining an advantage, kicking Anakin away and tossing Obi-Wan with the force, knocking him assuredly out of the fight.

Dooku's biggest weakness here is that his style of fighting would leave him the only person here without the ability to fluidly maneuver at a fast pace for a long duration.

That is fine though. It's just not his style of combat to battle like Maul, Sidious or Anakin. We already know he is capable of fighting on the same level or at a higher level than these characters from his showings that I stated above. Besides, we only ever see Dooku fighting on his own, where the fighters he is up against will be putting all their offensive onto him and him alone. Here, he is supported with Maul and Savage, two powerful fighters on their own. He will have a lot of time and space to compose himself. In fact, I find it unlikely that he will tire here at all. Sidious is not gonna have the freedom to ragdoll both Maul and Savage while Dooku is here and he wouldn't be able to focus only on Dooku with the aggressiveness of Maul and Savage. The three practically cover for the weaknesses that Sidious would exploit if they were NOT in a team.

Sidious who somehow locks blades with them.

Sidious is still a solid top 3 in the prequel era as a duelist. Also great with force augmentation.

In a realistic duel I just couldn't see Dooku being anything but a hindrance due to his fencing like style.

I disagree. Imo, Dooku covers for Savage and Maul where Sidious may abuse his force on them. At the same time, where Dooku would be overwhelmed in sabers only contest with Sidious, Maul and Savage will prevent that. The three of them will be able to take him down.

1) Will Sidious go after Dooku first, either due to his status or his lack of physical strength?

It's either him or Maul. Sidious would generally view Savage as less significant of a threat. His presence still matters here though.

2) Can Dooku fight a prolonged battle if Sidious decides to drag out the fight?

With Maul and Savage here, of course.

3) If Dooku gets separated, even for a moment, does he have what it takes to avoid a blade lock or the capacity to run.

You're really acting like a blade lock is an auto win for Sidious. In any case, the presence of Savage and Maul means Dooku doesn't have to worry about any of these 3 things.

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PaulPogba

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Sidious stomps

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firelordiroh

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@void_reborn:

"Can I see it? Yoda would die against 2 Dookus imo." I don't have it on me and I coudn't find it, I saw someone post it on this site it was a galaxy of adventures scan saying Yoda is 2x more powerful.

"Dooku was unprepared and Sidious is his master; he wouldn't resist usage of the force as punishment." Dooku not resisting makes sense but him being unprepared is out of character espeically considering how abusive his master is.

"I doubt Sidious can easily penetrate an active force wall from Dooku." Considering early TCW Anakin did it I don't see why Palpatine can do it with greater efficiency.

"It's really not that simple though. He has to put in all his attention to do one or the other." It was simple for him when he ragdolled the brothers on Mandalore and h can do it again here then take out Dooku.

Palpatine will only lose in a duel and even that's arguable.

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Hypnos0929

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@void_reborn:

Well yeah, that isn't how he fights. Dooku is the master of Makashi; a usually defensive style. Even so, it's never been flashy, intense and overly speedy in how it is performed. It doesn't mean he can't though. Dooku is relatively knowledgeable in all of the forms noted by how he trained Grievous in every single one of them.

Until Dooku shows otherwise it's wrong to assume he can. Especially since he has had very tough times with very physical fighters like those Dathomirian males, Savage Oppress, and Anakin. As for his training of Grievous, those who can not do, teach. You can know about something but not be in a position to use said information. Like a track star who gets hit by a car or a former football player turned coach.

Yeah but you can't really use that against him. It's like saying Kenobi's feat defending against Grievous' overwhelming onslaught was just reactionary speed and then concluding he is incapable of keeping up with duelists like Maul or Savage. Yet, he fended both of them off at the same time, even gaining an advantage after being pressed against the wall. Also considered an incredible defensive duelist and possibly the best user of Soresu that ever lived.

Except Kenobi did fight the brothers, and he chose a location where they were extremely limited in their efforts. Most people agree Kenobi would have lost to the duo in an open environment. Also Kenobi isn't Dooku, he was significantly younger and fought in war. He also used a completely different style. Also I'm pretty sure Dooku admitted Grievous gave him a tough time at points in their training.

If you're referring to Episode 2, that fight wasn't that short either. Although Dooku is tiers above them at that point, he is noticeably pre-prime as the Clone Wars have yet to begin. Anakin is still someone that never ceases to press Dooku even when he was simply a padawan. Him getting tired is normal. Even after dismembering and defeating the duo, he matched Yoda evenly in the force and contended with Yoda for their duel before making an escape, being outmatched.

Pre-Prime? Dooku is like 60-80 years old at that point. He wasn't getting any primer, he was getting weaker. Anakin was pressuring him, not through skill but just strength which further proves my point that Dooku is lacking in the physical department. In short fights he's great, against sloppy people he's amazing, but in this fight he's facing someone who is younger, stronger, faster, and a master in every form as well as his superior in force augmentation. Yoda outmatched Dooku, which is why he ran... but against Sidious there is no running. Running gets you choked out or your heart crushed.

In another duel later during The Clone Wars against both Obi-Wan and Anakin with all of them vastly improving since their previous 2v1, he was still taking the upper hand against both of them at the same time before the Pikes intervened. Even during Episode III, Dooku managed to duel them both to a standstill before gaining an advantage, kicking Anakin away and tossing Obi-Wan with the force, knocking him assuredly out of the fight.

Maul and Savage are far more symbiotic fighters than Anakin and Obi Wan. Obi Wan, as you admitted, is a defensive fighter. He wasn't able to keep up the pressure like Maul and Savage can. That opens him to losing to superior force users. The fact is if an individual is capable of keeping up the pressure then the force is almost insignificant in all but augmentation, and Grievous is proof of that.

That is fine though. It's just not his style of combat to battle like Maul, Sidious or Anakin. We already know he is capable of fighting on the same level or at a higher level than these characters from his showings that I stated above. Besides, we only ever see Dooku fighting on his own, where the fighters he is up against will be putting all their offensive onto him and him alone. Here, he is supported with Maul and Savage, two powerful fighters on their own. He will have a lot of time and space to compose himself. In fact, I find it unlikely that he will tire here at all. Sidious is not gonna have the freedom to ragdoll both Maul and Savage while Dooku is here and he wouldn't be able to focus only on Dooku with the aggressiveness of Maul and Savage. The three practically cover for the weaknesses that Sidious would exploit if they were NOT in a team.

The issue with this theory is the fact that Sidious was still playing. If he wanted to he could have broken both brother's necks in an instant. Savage had no business fighting Sidious and even with Maul protecting him he was still getting thrown around by the force.

Sidious won't need to hold them against the wall, he can push them away or throw Dooku with the same force and literally kill him. Dooku isn't capable of blocking a single hit from Savage and got lifted off the ground by him. What will stop Sidious from throwing him against a wall, full force, and crippling him? What's to stop him from using lightning on all 3 of them straight away?

Dooku is the slowest person here, he's the least offensive, and the physically weakest, but he's also more of a threat than Savage which means he dies first not because he's not skilled but because he becomes a priority.

Sidious is still a solid top 3 in the prequel era as a duelist. Also great with force augmentation.

I disagree. Imo, Dooku covers for Savage and Maul where Sidious may abuse his force on them. At the same time, where Dooku would be overwhelmed in sabers only contest with Sidious, Maul and Savage will prevent that. The three of them will be able to take him down.

Basically in these 2 statements you admit that Dooku's only chance of survival is to stay away from close quarters, which is likely impossible since Sidious can trash the brothers. Even if Maul and Savage agreed to protect him like Baby Jesus he is still in the most vulnerable position if separated because:

  • If Maul is separated Savage and Dooku can force Sidious away long enough for him to get back quickly
  • If Savage is separated Maul can try to sprint back to him while Dooku uses lightning as a diversion
  • If Dooku is separated he is dependent on the brothers forcing Sidious off of him or running back to him (and we know they aren't capable of blitzing the old Sith Master).

It's either him or Maul. Sidious would generally view Savage as less significant of a threat. His presence still matters here though.

The problem is he won't go after Maul first. Sidious has shown repeatedly he will not kill Maul. Dooku on the other hand can be persuaded into giving up, in Hope's of becoming a lapdog again. Which reminds me, if Dooku didn't think he could win with Maul and Talzin's help on Dathomir, what makes you think he would want the smoke with Savage there?

With Maul and Savage here, of course.

The only thing that keeps this theory intact is if Dooku never gets into a physical altercation. If he does then this falls apart.

You're really acting like a blade lock is an auto win for Sidious. In any case, the presence of Savage and Maul means Dooku doesn't have to worry about any of these 3 things.

Considering he blade locked with Savage while laughing, yes it is. There would be 2 hits, 1 of the connection then Dooku slamming against the floor or a wall. And yeah he certainly has to worry considering they're the only thing keeping him alive, so a single moment of separation gets him killed.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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Sorry, actual source material has decided this one. Sidious can't even take Dooku and Ventress:

"Sidious knew that, should Asajj become any more powerful, the combined might of Dooku and Ventress could overthrow him."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #67

If Ventress grew any stronger than she was as of the Battle of Sullust, she and Dooku were enough to take Sidious. Guess what? She grew stronger, and Dooku is stated to be much more powerful than said stronger version of her.

Unless you somehow think that Ventress by herself is superior to the combination of Maul and Savage, it's canonically impossible for Sidious to win.

Team wins every time. (Hint: it's not close)

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@hypnos0929:

Considering he blade locked with Savage while laughing, yes it is. There would be 2 hits, 1 of the connection then Dooku slamming against the floor or a wall.

That's an inconsistency. Physically, Dooku can hold a bladelock with Yoda, who has repeatedly overpowered Sidious in strength contests.

And yeah he certainly has to worry considering they're the only thing keeping him alive, so a single moment of separation gets him killed.

Yoda couldn't kill an exhausted Dooku in nearly 40 seconds, much less a moment. Sidious would be hardpressed to deal with Dooku alone -- with the brothers in the game, Sidious dies almost immediately.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@hypnos0929:

You can know about something but not be in a position to use said information. Like a track star who gets hit by a car or a former football player turned coach.

That's not how it typically works with martial arts. If you visit most any school of combat, be it fencing or wrestling, the instructors are by far the most skilled fighters present, and are fully active.

The only reason teachers in any physical discipline allow themselves to decline would be due to physical atrophying. Force users possess supernatural physicals -- Dooku is fitter than most men half his age.

Being a combat instructor carries a lot of weight, and is in no way comparable to football coaching.

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SufferedToker

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#109  Edited By SufferedToker

Maul is a total non factor. Sidious wins.