Count Dooku and General Grievous vs Darth Sidious (Sabers only)

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No Caption Provided

Vs.

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Rules:

  • ROTS Grievous, ROTS Dooku, and ROTS Sidious
  • Dooku and Sidious may use the force internally (augmentation, battlemind, etc.), but cannot use it externally (TK, lightning, etc.)
  • Legends only
  • In Character
  • Fight takes place at the Great Temple on Yavin 4
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Who wins and why??

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DeutschKurzhaar

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#3  Edited By DeutschKurzhaar

Dooku can arguably win by himself

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deactivated-6034d0d6dcbf4

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It’s a very good fight, I say Sidious takes it by an inch.

Not sure what “morals on” should mean with those guys.

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SheevSmacker

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either solo

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deactivated-612156a4d7eca

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Dooku would be a good fight on his own, these conditions kind of favor him more too since his lightsaber skill is already closer to Palps than force ability.

Legends Grievous is slightly below normal Mace Windu in combat, which is enough to pull the Dooku team ahead.

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@deutschkurzhaar: Reasons why Dooku can win by himself?

@richard96: Whoops, I meant in character.

@mysterymeat: Reasons Dooku would be a good fight on his own? Palpatine has him thoroughly outclassed in the physical department (especially strength which is one of Dooku's weaknesses), hence why I added Grievous to compensate. Skillwise the Dookster is > Sidious, but that doesn't matter much at this level. I do agree with your assessment though that the team would win.

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@w4nkdestroyer: Both are able to stand up to Yoda, the difference is that one is a challenge to him and the other pushes Yoda to his absolute limits. Its been heavily implied that nobody could stand up to early war Dooku other than Yoda, which is supported by Dooku showing no fear of even Mace Windu.

Of course that would change near the end of the war but Dooku being better than any non Yoda Jedi for a time is pretty good, I don't imagine Palpatine stomping AOTC Mace in a fight is realistic even if he would win.

Skillwise though you are right the Dookster is > Sidious, but that doesn't matter much at this level.

What makes you say that?

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Greysentinel365

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Sidious. Some effort but little actual difficulty.

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DarthAdi

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Sidious, but not easly.

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dorukesin1

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Dooku solos in pijamas

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GangOrca

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#13  Edited By GangOrca

@sheevsmacker said:

either solo

lol good joke

OT: Sidious 6/10, Dooku can make him work for it on his own

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deactivated-60f8725e36989

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@mysterymeat said:

@w4nkdestroyer: Both are able to stand up to Yoda, the difference is that one is a challenge to him and the other pushes Yoda to his absolute limits. Its been heavily implied that nobody could stand up to early war Dooku other than Yoda, which is supported by Dooku showing no fear of even Mace Windu.

Dooku was able to stand up to a pre prime, holding back Yoda. Yoda was pre prime due to the fact that he wasn't mentioned as a 9 during AOTC (while Sidious was) and was holding back per Dark Rendezvous where Yoda finally lets go of his attachment to Dooku and decisively beats him, despite Dooku being amped and Yoda being hindered by the nexus of Vjun.

Early war Windu is sub late TCW Kenobi, so that's not really a plus for Dooku either.

Of course that would change near the end of the war but Dooku being better than any non Yoda Jedi for a time is pretty good, I don't imagine Palpatine stomping AOTC Mace in a fight is realistic even if he would win.

Really? I Imagine Sidious stomping the ever-loving shit out of AOTC Mace, who again, based off feats is sub late TCW Kenobi.

What makes you say that?

That Dooku is > Sidious or that skill doesn't matter at this level??

For the former, I hold Dooku as the 3rd best duelist skill wise in the entire mythos, behind Yoda and GM Luke. Sidious and Dooku are obviously close in skill, as are all duelists of this caliber; but Dooku's had more time to practice his dueling since he's older. Palpatine's distaste for sabers also factors into this, since he would have spent less time mastering a blade.

For the latter, imagine this irl scenario: a heavyweight champion vs. a featherweight champion. Obviously both are extremely skilled fighters, since both of them are champions within their respective division. However, the heavyweight champion has an absolutely enormous physical advantage over the featherweight, to the point where he could probably no sell blows most blows to non-vital areas. Now imagine that Dooku is the featherweight, and Sidious is the heavyweight. The physical difference, far outweighs the skill difference.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#15  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

In regard to the old legends continuity:

ROTS Dooku is too old. He was being quickly eviscerated by Obi-Wan's Ataru, and couldn't remotely pressure Obi-Wan's defenses. Sidious nigh-blitzes him. Grievous survives for a decent stint but dies.

In terms of overall legends continuity:

Team wins. Dooku on his own would be a close match.

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Lord_God

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@w4nkdestroyer:

Really? I Imagine Sidious stomping the ever-loving shit out of AOTC Mace, who again, based off feats is sub late TCW Kenobi.

How is AOTC Mace sub late TCW Kenobi?

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Lord_God

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In regard to the old legends continuity:

ROTS Dooku is too old. He was being quickly eviscerated by Obi-Wan's Ataru, and couldn't remotely pressure Obi-Wan's defenses. Sidious nigh-blitzes him. Grievous survives for a decent stint but dies.

In terms of overall legends continuity:

Team wins. Dooku on his own would be a close match.

Sidious nigh-blitzes him. Grievous survives for a decent stint but dies.

Why would Dooku be performing far worse than Grievous when Dooku as the master should logically be above him?

ROTS Dooku is too old. He was being quickly eviscerated by Obi-Wan's Ataru, and couldn't remotely pressure Obi-Wan's defenses.

Assuming you're referring to the novelisation, wasn't it Dooku who was holding the comfortable upper hand against the duo until they switched to Djem so/Soresu?

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deactivated-60f8725e36989

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@lord_god said:

@w4nkdestroyer:

Really? I Imagine Sidious stomping the ever-loving shit out of AOTC Mace, who again, based off feats is sub late TCW Kenobi.

How is AOTC Mace sub late TCW Kenobi?

Late TCW Kenobi was rivaling a more powerful Dooku than AOTC Windu was confirmed inferior to.

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MyGod000

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This is a far closer fight with sabers than it would be with the force.

...I'll Give it to Sidious, but only barely.

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Lord_God

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@lord_god said:

@w4nkdestroyer:

Really? I Imagine Sidious stomping the ever-loving shit out of AOTC Mace, who again, based off feats is sub late TCW Kenobi.

How is AOTC Mace sub late TCW Kenobi?

Late TCW Kenobi was rivaling a more powerful Dooku than AOTC Windu was confirmed inferior to.

Source?

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Lord_God

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deactivated-60f8725e36989

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@lord_god: Ahh I was thinking of the DR quote from Yoda. Nevermind.

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Greysentinel365

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#24  Edited By Greysentinel365

@lord_god:

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Mace is weaker than Yoda

Exhausted Dooku's attacks on Geonosis would have killed Mace. So we can pretty safely say AotC Dooku > AotCMace.

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@w4nkdestroyer:

Dooku was able to stand up to a pre prime, holding back Yoda. Yoda was pre prime due to the fact that he wasn't mentioned as a 9 during AOTC (while Sidious was) and was holding back per Dark Rendezvous where Yoda finally lets go of his attachment to Dooku and decisively beats him, despite Dooku being amped and Yoda being hindered by the nexus of Vjun.

There are numerous sources stating that Yoda did not hold back on Geonosis and that suggest Dooku and Yoda were ''almost equals'' I would be very surprised if you haven't seen those. George Lucas himself seems to have created the character with that kind of intent as well, based off of him saying they were roughly even.

The author of the story had both of them amped on Vjun, so we know the intent was for Dooku and Yoda to be closer than what you're suggesting. The only way around this is to cherry pick from other stories on how dark nexuses work and falsely apply them to Dark Rendezvous despite us having proof that's not how they functioned in that story.

I agree with the idea of Yoda not being a 9 as of AOTC, but I don't think Sidious would ever be able to stomp him still. (which means it isn't happening to Dooku either)

The 3rd most powerful Jedi/Sith against the most powerful Jedi/Sith has an obvious outcome, but I fail to see how its a stomp by any stretch.

Early war Windu is sub late TCW Kenobi, so that's not really a plus for Dooku either.

First I've heard of that, are you suggesting that ROTS Obi Wan would be the second strongest Jedi in the entire order if he were placed in AOTC?

Seems far fetched to me, but if there's an argument for it I'm all ears.

That Dooku is > Sidious or that skill doesn't matter at this level??

It was about skill.

Also I wouldn't use Palpatine's dislike of saber combat against him, not liking it isn't a point against him in my mind. Batman hates fighting, but that shouldn't be used to say he's inferior to a guy on a similar level that doesn't hate it etc etc.

But yeah, even if he has a slight skill edge it wouldn't matter that much.

When two guys are equally skilled, it cancels out and physicality becomes everything.

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@w4nkdestroyer:

There are numerous sources stating that Yoda did not hold back on Geonosis and that suggest Dooku and Yoda were ''almost equals'' I would be very surprised if you haven't seen those. George Lucas himself seems to have created the character with that kind of intent as well, based off of him saying they were roughly even.

Overruled by Dark Rendezvous explicitly showing that Yoda still cared for Dooku.

Original intent doesn't really matter anymore either. Qui Gon and Maul were supposed to be "near equals" according to Gillard at the time, yet later on, he rated Maul an 8 (on par with Dooku, Kenobi, and Anakin) while Jinn was a 7 (on par with Kit Fisto), as well as other depictions of the fight having Maul overwhelming the duo completely and being "disgusted".

The author of the story had both of them amped on Vjun, so we know the intent was for Dooku and Yoda to be closer than what you're suggesting. The only way around this is to cherry pick from other stories on how dark nexuses work and falsely apply them to Dark Rendezvous despite us having proof that's not how they functioned in that story.

The author misconstruing what nexuses are doesn't change what nexuses actually are in lore. He can't defy continuity, he isn't some sole authority on Star Wars, continuity is formed by coherence throughout a story. Therefore, Yoda was hindered and Dooku was amped.

I agree with the idea of Yoda not being a 9 as of AOTC, but I don't think Sidious would ever be able to stomp him still. (which means it isn't happening to Dooku either)

I don't think Yoda would be stomped by Sidious, but Dooku is susceptible to strength based attacks, something Palpatine incorporates in his duels as seen in his duel with the brothers; both of whom are immensely stronger than Dooku yet were still overwhelmed.

The 3rd most powerful Jedi/Sith against the most powerful Jedi/Sith has an obvious outcome, but I fail to see how its a stomp by any stretch.

Where are you getting third most powerful from? Anakin, Yoda, Maul, Windu, and Sidious are all more powerful than Dooku.

It's a stomp because as I said, Sidious incorporates strength into his dueling (unlike Yoda), Sidious also outmuscled 2 people who are > the same Anakin that made Dooku's body shudder from his strikes in ROTS.

First I've heard of that, are you suggesting that ROTS Obi Wan would be the second strongest Jedi in the entire order if he were placed in AOTC?

Yes. I mean who else is actually powerful during AOTC? The only other 8s are Yoda and Windu.

Seems far fetched to me, but if there's an argument for it I'm all ears.

Dooku was already an equal, if not slight superior to Windu as a Jedi. As a Sith, Dooku became much more powerful, and his growth should have been > Windu's from TPM to AOTC.

That and Obi Wan's feats are more impressive, AOTC Windu was fighting competitively with early war Ventress, meanwhile late TCW Kenobi is decisively ahead of late war Ventress.

It was about skill.

Also I wouldn't use Palpatine's dislike of saber combat against him, not liking it isn't a point against him in my mind. Batman hates fighting, but that shouldn't be used to say he's inferior to a guy on a similar level that doesn't hate it etc etc.

I think I explained it the wrong way. What I meant was that Dooku would spend more time training with a lightsaber than Sidious was even after he mastered it, since Dooku likes saber combat, while Sidious doesn't.

But yeah, even if he has a slight skill edge it wouldn't matter that much.

When two guys are equally skilled, it cancels out and physicality becomes everything.

Agreed.

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@lord_god:

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Mace is weaker than Yoda

Exhausted Dooku's attacks on Geonosis would have killed Mace. So we can pretty safely say AotC Dooku > AotCMace.

That would make AOTC Kenobi>AOTC Yoda and AOTC Anakin> AOTC Yoda.

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Greysentinel365

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@w4nkdestroyer: By what metric? Dooku is stated to have toyed with both of them. You have no way of proving he used his lightnings full potency on either of them. In fact we know he didn't as it didn't oneshot them.

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@w4nkdestroyer: By what metric? Dooku is stated to have toyed with both of them. You have no way of proving he used his lightnings full potency on either of them. In fact we know he didn't as it didn't oneshot them.

Dooku was only stated to be toying in the duel, but I suppose it would also make sense for him to be holding back his power as well.

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El_mago

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Sidious via being on similar nivels to swordsmen like the ROTS versions of Mace Windu>who is Count Dooku during the office fight and Yoda who by the time of the same timeframe his skills where considered second to none.

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@w4nkdestroyer:

Overruled by Dark Rendezvous explicitly showing that Yoda still cared for Dooku.

No, that's either an inconsistency or a conflicting source.

Qui Gon and Maul were supposed to be "near equals" according to Gillard at the time, yet later on, he rated Maul an 8 (on par with Dooku, Kenobi, and Anakin) while Jinn was a 7 (on par with Kit Fisto)

You can be in different tiers while still being 'close' so I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of that.

Jinn could easily be a 7.8 or 7.9 while Maul is a 8.1 or something, which would still make them 'near equals'.

A good comparison would be human height, a guy who's 5'11 falls in the 5 foot range, while a guy who's 6'0 falls in the 6 foot range.. but they're still near equals. The tier placements you brought up don't sound inconsistent at all with Jinn and Maul.

The author misconstruing what nexuses are doesn't change what nexuses actually are in lore.

*Doesn't change anything in the lore of other writers.

But as far as his story was concerned, they were both amped.

He can't defy continuity, he isn't some sole authority on Star Wars, continuity is formed by coherence throughout a story.

He can as much as he likes.

His word has no bearing on how the nexuses of other stories work, but as far as his story in concerned he decides how they function.

Pointing out that there's an inconsistency doesn't change the fact something happened, and here, Yoda was amped along with Dooku. Ignoring the story entirely would be one thing, but twisting the intent and ignoring the WoG of the story by using by different authors and stories is very disingenuous.

The idea of Dooku supposedly losing to Yoda while amped is at best, out of context.

Side note, WoG and intent pretty much solo anything else, the author knows what their characters are capable of far better than a random group of nerds on a battles forum.

I don't think Yoda would be stomped by Sidious, but Dooku is susceptible to strength based attacks, something Palpatine incorporates in his duels as seen in his duel with the brothers; both of whom are immensely stronger than Dooku yet were still overwhelmed.

Wait, are we mixing legends and canon? I know SoD is said to count in legends so I guess Maul losing to Palps with help is applicable. If we're adding in Dooku's anti feats from the clone wars show, then things get worse for him.

Filoniverse Dooku is barley above Anakin level half the time, who himself is physically weaker than Palpatine.

Strength is a big part of the reason I think he loses to Palpatine, but not in a stomp.

Where are you getting third most powerful from? Anakin, Yoda, Windu, and Sidious are all more powerful than Dooku.

I said as of AOTC.

I think Windu and Anakin surpass him in the late clone wars to maybe ROTS.

It's a stomp because as I said, Sidious incorporates strength into his dueling (unlike Yoda), Sidious also outmuscled 2 people who are > the same Anakin that made Dooku's body shudder from his strikes in ROTS.

He beat a team that's inferior to Anakin & Obi Wan, who even Filoniverse Dooku has outfought.

Granted Savage is wildly inconsistent to the point were scaling is nigh useless given his ups and downs.

Yes. I mean who else is actually powerful during AOTC? The only other 8s are Yoda and Windu.

Well, I guess.

Also.. Obi Wan and Yoda being in the same tier is a pretty good indication that this ''on par'' stuff isn't that accurate.

''yet later on, he rated Maul an 8 (on par with Dooku, Kenobi, and Anakin) while Jinn was a 7 (on par with Kit Fisto)''

^^^

Dooku was already an equal, if not slight superior to Windu as a Jedi. As a Sith, Dooku became much more powerful, and his growth should have been > Windu's from TPM to AOTC.

Ah fair.

That and Obi Wan's feats are more impressive,

Scaling is vastly superior to feats, given the fluctuation in power levels we see in the EU.

There have been stories where random mid level force users destroy entire armies of clones/battle droids and can pull Mountain sized ships out of the air.

And other stories where Yoda strains himself piking up a small-medium with the force or where Dooku gets arrested by a band of Pirates. lol

Pretty much, the characters in relation to eachother (scaling) mean much more than feats ever will due to power fluctuations seen with writers.

(Nexuses aren't the only things with inconsistencies)

AOTC Windu was fighting competitively with early war Ventress, meanwhile late TCW Kenobi is decisively ahead of late war Ventress.

Ah there we go.

What I meant was that Dooku would spend more time training with a lightsaber than Sidious was even after he mastered it, since Dooku likes saber combat, while Sidious doesn't.

Makes enough sense, his slight skill edge would only delay Palpatine from winning for a short while.

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NotTheGodMadara

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Sidious stomps

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DeutschKurzhaar

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@mysterymeat: You can’t compare yoda vs dooku and sidious vs yoda to come to a conclusion for this fight. That logic just isn’t applicable to this battle because yoda was dooku’s master, he knew his every move before he made it, it’s a lot different when you fight someone that isn’t as familiar with your moves. Along with that that’s why you can’t compare any fight to come to a conclusion for a completely different one because every fight is going to have its variables, such as who trained you, what form you use, experience, knowledge, and so on.

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@mysterymeat said:

@w4nkdestroyer:

No, that's either an inconsistency or a conflicting source.

Multiple sources show that Yoda wasn't going all out, Dark Rendezvous is just confirmation.

You can be in different tiers while still being 'close' so I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of that.

Jinn could easily be a 7.8 or 7.9 while Maul is a 8.1 or something, which would still make them 'near equals'.

A good comparison would be human height, a guy who's 5'11 falls in the 5 foot range, while a guy who's 6'0 falls in the 6 foot range.. but they're still near equals. The tier placements you brought up don't sound inconsistent at all with Jinn and Maul.

If you're close to somebody, you aren't "disgusted" by their performance along with their elite padawan who is one of the best in the order. If you're close to somebody, you're not baiting them into thinking their winning. If you're close to somebody, you don't beat them in 30 seconds despite them being meditation amped.

Maul is comfortably ahead of Jinn+Kenobi, Gillard recognized this and adjusted his viewpoint. At first in 2005 (or sometime then), Gillard believed AOTC Anakin would beat TPM Maul. In 2016, he put him in the league or ROTS Anakin. Views change.

*Doesn't change anything in the lore of other writers.

But as far as his story was concerned, they were both amped.

His misuse of a darkside nexus is his fault. If he wanted to have them both amped, he should have came up with a different term. A DS nexus is well established in Legends and cannot be altered due to the fault of a sole author.

He can as much as he likes.

His word has no bearing on how the nexuses of other stories work, but as far as his story in concerned he decides how they function.

That's not how continuity works. Continuity is built upon by the authors of the SW verse, through their work they have conveyed the idea of what a darkside nexus is.

Pointing out that there's an inconsistency doesn't change the fact something happened, and here, Yoda was amped along with Dooku. Ignoring the story entirely would be one thing, but twisting the intent and ignoring the WoG of the story by using by different authors and stories is very disingenuous.

The idea of Dooku supposedly losing to Yoda while amped is at best, out of context.

Inconsistencies are rendered irrelevant; the same way people just shrug off Ahsoka contending with Grievous, Dooku being captured by pirates, and Maul losing to a dog. All of their power levels are solidified and they don't suffer from their low end showings. Similarly, the definition of a darkside nexus is solidified, and cannot be changed.

Side note, WoG and intent pretty much solo anything else, the author knows what their characters are capable of far better than a random group of nerds on a battles forum.

The authors aren't Lucasfilm officials, they are just authors hired to write a book. It's only WoG when Lucasfilm makes it clear i.e. the tiering system.

Wait, are we mixing legends and canon? I know SoD is said to count in legends so I guess Maul losing to Palps with help is applicable. If we're adding in Dooku's anti feats from the clone wars show, then things get worse for him.

Just legends, but TCW is legends as well. I don't take into account low showings, only high showings.

Filoniverse Dooku is barley above Anakin level half the time, who himself is physically weaker than Palpatine.

Nah, Dooku is solidly above Anakin during TCW. The only time Anakin gains the upper hand is when he embraces his anger.

Strength is a big part of the reason I think he loses to Palpatine, but not in a stomp.

It's definitely a stomp.

Dooku buckled under Zonakin's strength. In turn Savage is > Zonakin via sending Dooku flying with one hit, where Zonakin couldn't do it with multiple. Maul is then > Savage via overpowering and disarming him, and Sidious is > both of them combined via outmuscling them.

I said as of AOTC.

I think Windu and Anakin surpass him in the late clone wars to maybe ROTS.

Why does as of AOTC matter?

Anakin surpasses him when he turns Zonakin, and Windu surpasses him during the office fight.

I did also notice though that you took the time to exclude Maul, despite Maul having every advantage in the book over Dooku besides dueling skill, which you acknowledged doesn't matter at this level; as well as easily beating a superior duelist to the Count in General Grievous, who is the only duelist to break Kenobi's Soresu guard:

''Dooku was possessed by Talzin and fought Sidious, while Maul easily drove Grievous away.''

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #070 (2015)

He beat a team that's inferior to Anakin & Obi Wan, who even Filoniverse Dooku has outfought.

Obi Wan and Anakin are not > Savage and Maul, not even close.

During S6 Anakin is nowhere near his ROTS self, since he goes through massive growth during the outer rim sieges (hence the "my powers have doubled"). Even Mandalore Maul is >> Jedi ROTS Anakin via overpowering Savage, (who in turn had a better strength performance against Dooku) and keeping up with Sidious' speed while unamped and visibly outpacing Sidious when amped.

As for Obi Wan, in 2v1s against Dooku he is forced to use Ataru, since his purely defensive Soresu is useless. And as we saw with his fight against a freshly resurrected Maul, Obi Wan got destroyed when using Ataru despite being enraged. I think it's safe to say Obi Wan's Ataru is not good at all, especially considering the fact that Dooku knows the intricacies of Ataru via Qui Gon and Yoda, and Kenobi's in for a bad time.

With that out of the way, I said outmuscled; Savage and Maul are both vastly stronger than Anakin and Kenobi.

So what we have here is this:

Mandalore Maul>>>>S6 Anakin

Savage ~ Kenobi using Ataru

Dooku was forced to retreat against an inferior duo, whereas Sidious beat them on their turf. In fact, Dooku was forced to retreat against a vastly inferior Savage who hadn't undergone training from Maul, and a vastly inferior opponent to Maul in Ventress.

Granted Savage is wildly inconsistent to the point were scaling is nigh useless given his ups and downs.

Incorrect, Savage just has a lot of rage amps. Savage's base state does not fluctuate at all.

Well, I guess.

Also.. Obi Wan and Yoda being in the same tier is a pretty good indication that this ''on par'' stuff isn't that accurate.

That was AOTC Yoda and ROTS Kenobi. The notion that different versions of Yoda and Kenobi can never be close is coming from incredulity, this is one of the main problems with Star Wars debating, that people can't accept new ideas.

AOTC Yoda is still ROTS Kenobi's better, but Kenobi can still compete, unlike against ROTS Yoda where Kenobi would be dominated.

TPM Maul's feat of decisively beating Jinn and Kenobi is better than any non circumstantial showing Kenobi has throughout TCW. TPM Maul has also choked out late TCW Kenobi, which should at least put him in their range.

Scaling is vastly superior to feats, given the fluctuation in power levels we see in the EU.

There have been stories where random mid level force users destroy entire armies of clones/battle droids and can pull Mountain sized ships out of the air.

And other stories where Yoda strains himself piking up a small-medium with the force or where Dooku gets arrested by a band of Pirates. lol

Pretty much, the characters in relation to eachother (scaling) mean much more than feats ever will due to power fluctuations seen with writers.

(Nexuses aren't the only things with inconsistencies)

I agree, though there is nobody AOTC Windu scales ahead of that late TCW Kenobi doesn't.

Makes enough sense, his slight skill edge would only delay Palpatine from winning for a short while.

Agreed.

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@deutschkurzhaar: Are you forgetting Sidious is also Dooku's master, and has sparred with him on numerous occasions as well?

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@w4nkdestroyer:

Multiple sources show that Yoda wasn't going all out, Dark Rendezvous is just confirmation.

Multiple sources show that he was, Dark Rendezvous is not confirmation of anything other than being a conflicting source.

If you're close to somebody, you aren't "disgusted" by their performance along with their elite padawan who is one of the best in the order.

You're just number crunching emotional statements into tiers at this point.

I'm certainly guilty of this too, but its worth noting that what's counts as 'close' and 'not close' is also subjective. What counts as close fight for one author might be disgustingly unbalanced match for another.

If you're close to somebody, you're not baiting them into thinking their winning.

If someone even has to resort to 'baiting' in that sense, its clear they don't have the power to stomp their opponent and are likely involved in what some may call a ''good fight''. (but that's subjective as I said)

If you're close to somebody, you don't beat them in 30 seconds despite them being meditation amped.

Source for the amp?

I doubt it would make up for the strenuous and surely exhausting battle he was feeling tired from.

Maul is comfortably ahead of Jinn+Kenobi, Gillard recognized this and adjusted his viewpoint. At first in 2005 (or sometime then), Gillard believed AOTC Anakin would beat TPM Maul. In 2016, he put him in the league or ROTS Anakin. Views change.

The difference is when its committed on film, or anything for that matter, its pretty damn hard to go back from it.

His misuse of a darkside nexus is his fault. If he wanted to have them both amped, he should have came up with a different term. A DS nexus is well established in Legends and cannot be altered due to the fault of a sole author.

They aren't all being altered on a universe level though?

The one that we saw in that particular story wasn't functioning the same way we see with other writers, he's not 'changing' anything for the stories of other authors.

That's not how continuity works. Continuity is built upon by the authors of the SW verse, through their work they have conveyed the idea of what a darkside nexus is.

No fictional Universe with multiple writers is going to have perfect continuity.

That doesn't mean you can try and alter the context of a story from author A in favor of how something functioned in a different story by author B.

Inconsistencies are rendered irrelevant; the same way people just shrug off Ahsoka contending with Grievous, Dooku being captured by pirates, and Maul losing to a dog.

A small group of people 'shrugging something off' doesn't mean anything, and those showings still very much count (as low ends) but that doesn't change the fact they did happen.

All of their power levels are solidified and they don't suffer from their low end showings.

They do suffer from their low end showings, because they didn't in fact happen.

You would be very hard pressed to find a character that didn't suffer from highs and lows, pretty much no one is 'solidified' when it comes to expansive universes with numerous writers.

Similarly, the definition of a darkside nexus is solidified, and cannot be changed.

Unless of course they appear in certain stories that go against what you are suggesting.

What you're doing is trying to change the context of a situation that occurred in a story that goes against what actually happened according to the author of said story.

It is in fact perfectly true to say, at one author considers Maul to be dog thrashing level, just as others think Nexuses work differently. Not liking these situations or occurrences is one thing, but trying to change the context of them is something much worse to do.

If you wanted to ignore the whole Dooku vs Yoda on Vjun match entirely because you think the nexus thing was stupid and shouldn't have happened, that's fine.

Just don't selectively ignore certain details of the story while accepting the ones you like to present it a certain way.

The authors aren't Lucasfilm officials, they are just authors hired to write a book. It's only WoG when Lucasfilm makes it clear i.e. the tiering system.

Why can't someone have WoG status in regards to their own story? They had permission to use them after all.

Just legends, but TCW is legends as well. I don't take into account low showings, only high showings.

That's biased.

It's definitely a stomp.

Dooku buckled under Zonakin's strength. In turn Savage is > Zonakin via sending Dooku flying with one hit, where Zonakin couldn't do it with multiple. Maul is then > Savage via overpowering and disarming him, and Sidious is > both of them combined via outmuscling them.

So why didn't any of this seemingly happen when Palpatine fought Yoda?

If Sidious is stronger than Savage, who knocked a 190 lb Dooku 15 ft a away, that mean's Sidious would be able to do more in your mind?

Why didn't Sidious ever knock the 33 lb Yoda.. god knows how many dozens of feet away with his lightsaber slashes?

That's the issue with multiple directors I guess.

Filoniverse Palpatine would thrash and stomp Filoniverse Dooku.

Lucasverse Palpatine would win against Lucasverse Dooku after a good fight.

I did also notice though that you took the time to exclude Maul

I'm sure you wouldn't want to debate Maul vs Dooku for the 27th time on your own thread, without Maul being there, which you're debating others on for some reason.

That can of worms can wait for another day.

Obi Wan and Anakin are not > Savage and Maul, not even close.

During S6 Anakin is nowhere near his ROTS self, since he goes through massive growth during the outer rim sieges (hence the "my powers have doubled").

The ''my powers of doubled'' thing was a clear reference to Lucasverse Anakin and AOTC, who never meets Dooku again up until ROTS.

The Filoniverse ignores such obvious statements and implications while doing whatever the hell they want, I don't think its honest to take the power doubling thing seriously in the context of TCW. (Filnoiverse)

As I said, the Maul stuff should wait for another day however.

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@gangorca said:
@sheevsmacker said:

either solo

lol good joke

OT: Sidious 6/10, Dooku can make him work for it on his own

Is not joke ???

Dooku and Grievous can soloing Sheev with easy by feat and scaling.

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#38  Edited By GangOrca

@sheevsmacker said:
@gangorca said:
@sheevsmacker said:

either solo

lol good joke

OT: Sidious 6/10, Dooku can make him work for it on his own

Is not joke ???

Dooku and Grievous can soloing Sheev with easy by feat and scaling.

What feats? Grievous is merely a peer to ROTS Kenobi who Sidious would massacre in a fight. He has no lightsaber feats of challenging someone of Sidious's level who can casually blitz Maul and kill Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin before Windu and Kit Fisto could intercept him.

The only potential argument I could see for Dooku is him doing better against Yoda in a lightsaber battle. Thing is, Yoda was holding back as stated in this thread.

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@mysterymeat said:

@w4nkdestroyer:

Multiple sources show that he was, Dark Rendezvous is not confirmation of anything other than being a conflicting source.

The only source that depicts Yoda as being serious is the senior novelization. The junior novelization, along with the comic and fact files, all depict Yoda holding back and deflecting the Count's attacks with ease. DR just builds upon that.

You're just number crunching emotional statements into tiers at this point.

I'm certainly guilty of this too, but its worth noting that what's counts as 'close' and 'not close' is also subjective. What counts as close fight for one author might be disgustingly unbalanced match for another.

It's certainly an indicator that Maul and Jinn are not close, considering Maul was disgusted by Jinn and expected more of a challenge.

If someone even has to resort to 'baiting' in that sense, its clear they don't have the power to stomp their opponent and are likely involved in what some may call a ''good fight''. (but that's subjective as I said)

He didn't resort to baiting per say, it was just the tactic he chose. I mean hell, in one of the depictions of the fight, I think it was Wrath of Darth Maul, it makes note that the reason Maul looks over the edge when Kenobi falls is so he doesn't die prematurely. That should give you a sense of how much Maul thought he was threatened by them.

Source for the amp?

I doubt it would make up for the strenuous and surely exhausting battle he was feeling tired from.

Can't find the exact quote, but I'll paraphrase, cause I'm sure you've seen it somewhere and will recognize it.

Jinn attacked Maul with a newfound reserve of energy (disproving your second statement as well) that Maul hadn't seen in him before, and Jinn attacked with more ferocity as well. Pretty sure it's from the original novel in 1999.

The difference is when its committed on film, or anything for that matter, its pretty damn hard to go back from it.

Right, but in the film they weren't portrayed as equals, which Gillard realized. Hence why he altered his viewpoint. If you're losing a 2v1, then none of the 2 are equal to the 1.

They aren't all being altered on a universe level though?

The one that we saw in that particular story wasn't functioning the same way we see with other writers, he's not 'changing' anything for the stories of other authors.

All darkside nexuses function based on the same set of rules, so if one nexus is changed, all of them are changed.

No fictional Universe with multiple writers is going to have perfect continuity.

That doesn't mean you can try and alter the context of a story from author A in favor of how something functioned in a different story by author B.

Of course not, but that doesn't mean you disregard continuity as a whole.

A small group of people 'shrugging something off' doesn't mean anything, and those showings still very much count (as low ends) but that doesn't change the fact they did happen.

The amount of people who do it is irrelevant. The point is that it's an inconsistency which doesn't line up with continuity.

They do suffer from their low end showings, because they didn't in fact happen.

When is the last time someone used Dooku losing to pirates as a serious counterargument? How about Anakin almost losing to Clovis in a fist fight?

You would be very hard pressed to find a character that didn't suffer from highs and lows, pretty much no one is 'solidified' when it comes to expansive universes with numerous writers.

You're right, everybody suffers from low end feats, I never denied that. What I said was that those low end feats should be hand waved based on their higher end feats. At the end of the day, none of these characters are perfect, and sometimes they just have a bad day, which is what I chalk it up to sometimes.

Unless of course they appear in certain stories that go against what you are suggesting.

Which defies everything we know about dark side nexuses.

What you're doing is trying to change the context of a situation that occurred in a story that goes against what actually happened according to the author of said story.

It is in fact perfectly true to say, at one author considers Maul to be dog thrashing level, just as others think Nexuses work differently. Not liking these situations or occurrences is one thing, but trying to change the context of them is something much worse to do.

Authors can't "think" things, they can't have their own ideas on these subjects. They have to follow the established continuity, and if they choose not to, then the intent of their work is essentially disregarded.

If you wanted to ignore the whole Dooku vs Yoda on Vjun match entirely because you think the nexus thing was stupid and shouldn't have happened, that's fine.

Just don't selectively ignore certain details of the story while accepting the ones you like to present it a certain way.

It's not selectively ignoring details, it's following the continuity of Legends which has been established time and time again. One rogue author choosing to not follow those guidelines can't just bend Star Wars continuity to his will. If George Lucas can't even do that, why would so random, non Lucasfilm author be able to?

Why can't someone have WoG status in regards to their own story? They had permission to use them after all.

Because Star Wars isn't their own story? It's the same way an actors opinion on power levels isn't set in stone either until direct confirmation.

That's biased.

I do it for all characters, not just Maul. And as I said, I only disregard showings if they defy continuity, so not all low showings.

It's the same way Michael Jordan is still one of the greatest players in basketball history, despite getting eliminated in the first round of the playoffs multiple times.

So why didn't any of this seemingly happen when Palpatine fought Yoda?

If Sidious is stronger than Savage, who knocked a 190 lb Dooku 15 ft a away, that mean's Sidious would be able to do more in your mind?

Why didn't Sidious ever knock the 33 lb Yoda.. god knows how many dozens of feet away with his lightsaber slashes?

Why didn't Sidious destroy Yoda in physical strength? Because Yoda is physically stronger than Sidious, as seen when he overpowers Sidious. Yoda's strength per pound advantage over Sidious, is enough to compensate for the weight discrepancy between the two of them (around 100 pounds), which honestly is nothing compared to the strength of force users who can lift tons.

That's the issue with multiple directors I guess.

Filoniverse Palpatine would thrash and stomp Filoniverse Dooku.

Lucasverse Palpatine would win against Lucasverse Dooku after a good fight.

Lucas directly oversaw development of TCW, their is no difference in between their character.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to debate Maul vs Dooku for the 27th time on your own thread, without Maul being there, which you're debating others on for some reason.

That can of worms can wait for another day.

There's nothing really to debate, it's sheer denial to think Dooku could beat Maul based off an ever so slight advantage in dueling skill while Maul has an advantage in everything else ranging from slight to significant, but I digress.

The ''my powers of doubled'' thing was a clear reference to Lucasverse Anakin and AOTC, who never meets Dooku again up until ROTS.

Until it was retconned by TCW, which is apart of Legends.

The Filoniverse ignores such obvious statements and implications while doing whatever the hell they want, I don't think its honest to take the power doubling thing seriously in the context of TCW. (Filnoiverse)

There are multiple things wrong with this assessment:

1. We have no proof Anakin actually doubled in power, just that he vastly increased after Ahsoka left, so for all we know Anakin could just be bragging like he always does.

2. Anakin around this time was mid diffing Barriss Offee, a padawan. On the other hand Savage mid diffed Adi Gallia, a council tier master. There is quite clearly a big difference between S6 Anakin and ROTS Anakin.

As I said, the Maul stuff should wait for another day however.

You're the one who compared Maul and Savage to the dream team, I simply countered it. If you don't want to debate Maul's power level, leave him out of it.

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@w4nkdestroyer: sidious did not teach dooku anything with a saber as he had been a master for years and was the best besides yoda in the Jedi order. Sidious mostly taught him how to channel his dark side energy to make him more powerful, along with a few force techniques that Jedi aren’t allowed to use, and taught him force lightning

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Sidious can augment his strength to that point where he was absolutely amazing Savage Oppress with strength while blade locking both him and maul. He has also knocked Savage Oppress out on his feet with a single kick. I think Dooku is going to struggle with the strength based attacks even if he is able to compete in skill and then Sidious should be free to exploit Grievous.

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@deutschkurzhaar said:

@w4nkdestroyer: sidious did not teach dooku anything with a saber as he had been a master for years and was the best besides yoda in the Jedi order. Sidious mostly taught him how to channel his dark side energy to make him more powerful, along with a few force techniques that Jedi aren’t allowed to use, and taught him force lightning

I didn't say Sidious taught him, I said Sidious sparred with him, meaning Sidious at least has basic knowledge on how Dooku fights, which was your original argument.

@deutschkurzhaar said:

@w4nkdestroyer: Also it was also stated in the darth plagueis book which is canon, that when dooku was still a Jedi sidious feared him, and was extremely cautious when approaching him in conversation in case he was tricking sidious

Well you said it yourself, Sidious didn't fear Dooku because of his power, but because he could've been lying all this time.

Also DP is Legends, but this thread is Legends as well so it still applies.

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@laflux: What do you mean exploit Grievous?

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@w4nkdestroyer: My bad sometimes I forget what Disney declared legends and canon I got that mixed up. But sparring with someone and learning their basic movements, is completely different than literally training someone since they were a kid. So I repeat, you can’t use yoda vs sidious and compare it to yoda vs dooku to conclude this battle, it doesn’t work. It has way too many variables to account for to make a substantial claim

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@w4nkdestroyer: and that’s not what I said I’ll go into further detail since apparently I wasn’t clear enough, sidious feared dooku and was extremely careful around him as he knew dooku could very well beat him if he wanted to. Especially if he was trying to bait sidious into accidentally leaking information that he was a sith. And yes, I do indeed mean he feared his power

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@w4nkdestroyer:

Grevious knows all seven forms of Lightsaber combat but Dooku commented on how Grevious often eschewed skill for randomized attacks and turning himself into giant buzzsaw.

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@laflux: I assume you're referring to Grievous using all four blades like he did against Kenobi in ROTS? Only reason he did that there was because the platform they are on wasn't large enough for him to move around regularly.

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@deutschkurzhaar said:

@w4nkdestroyer: My bad sometimes I forget what Disney declared legends and canon I got that mixed up. But sparring with someone and learning their basic movements, is completely different than literally training someone since they were a kid. So I repeat, you can’t use yoda vs sidious and compare it to yoda vs dooku to conclude this battle, it doesn’t work. It has way too many variables to account for to make a substantial claim

Of course, I never said that Sidious has the same knowledge of Dooku that Yoda has, but he does have a basic understanding of Dooku's style/mentality.

@deutschkurzhaar said:

@w4nkdestroyer: and that’s not what I said I’ll go into further detail since apparently I wasn’t clear enough, sidious feared dooku and was extremely careful around him as he knew dooku could very well beat him if he wanted to. Especially if he was trying to bait sidious into accidentally leaking information that he was a sith. And yes, I do indeed mean he feared his power

I've read DP, Sidious didn't fear Dooku's power, he feared whether him and Plagueis' were being tricked.

Keep in mind, Dooku during TPM was only slightly above Windu, who in turn was a peer to Qui Gon, who Maul beat decisively. Dooku during TPM is below Maul during TPM, yet Sidious was able to blitz Maul during TPM.

If Dooku was truly a threat to Sidious, Dooku would have been > Sidious when he joined the darkside, and likely would've never even been trained by Sidious due to his own fear of being surpassed.

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@w4nkdestroyer: Nope I'm referring to Dooku's direct comments. Not to mention Grievous has shown a vulnerability to Shien due to its unorthodox randomized attacks. Juyo is in many ways a more aggressive version of that and is one of Sidious' favourite forms. Then you also have to consider that Sidious knows about Grievous and his training but not the other way around.