Count Dooku and Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

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hellothere5432

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Count Dooku:

No Caption Provided

Darth Vader:

No Caption Provided

VS:

Darth Sidious:

No Caption Provided

Rules:

Count Dooku is in his prime.

Darth Vader as of ROTJ.

R1: ROTS Sidious.

R2: ROTJ Sidious.

Standard knowledge.

Standard gear.

Start 20m apart.

Specify which continuity you are debating in.

Fight takes place in the Mandalorian throne Room.

Who wins and why?

LFL Policy:

  • Seen as though the pre Disney acquisition LFL hierarchy system (G canon, C canon etc) is no longer compulsory, it will not apply here.Therefore, G canon will not have supremacy. Although Lucas is still a filmmaker so his WoG can apply when it pertains to his own films, but not the wider verse
  • In Legends, sources can be weighed equally but given that CV is a feats oriented website, it can be assumed that people will debate on who has the better feats. That said, scaling chains, in universe logic/intent and accolades can still counter balance
  • In case it isn't obvious, content such as lego SW, alternate endings/DLC, crossovers with other universes, infinites etc aren't allowed
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achillesspawn

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Canon

Vader solos round 1.

Dooku is useless in round 2, and Vader can't beat Palpatine alone.

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killbilly

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#4  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

They defeat RotS Sidious and lose to RotJ Sidious.

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frozen

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#5 frozen  Moderator  Online

They defeat RotS Sidious and lose to RotJ Sidious.

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Darthor

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ROTJ Vader >> ROTS Sidious per scaling

ROTJ Sidious one-shot Dooku and proceeds to shut off Vader

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dathvada

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#7  Edited By dathvada

ROTS Sidious gets bodied.

ROTJ one shots Dooku and overwhelms Vader.

Edit: Canon continuity.

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Zapan871

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#8  Edited By Zapan871

Team, possibly, especially when Vader and Luke were stated as capable of beating Sidious, and Vader himself was deemed a threat to OT Sidious in Legends. And I doubt Dooku is below ROTJ Luke, especilly when considering he was close to Yoda. Though, considering how much even Force users less talented than Palpatine can grow in Legends, you could easily argue that OT Sidious stomps Yoda. They win against ROTS Sidious, though, considering that the latter viewed Ventress and Dooku as possibly capable of killing him. And we know Ventress is not a threat to Vader.

As far as Canon goes, no idea, but Vader was heavily implied by feats to be no threat to OT Sidious, IIRC.

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JediSympathiz3r

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Uhu123

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#11  Edited By Uhu123  Online

ROTS Sidious wins in a somewhat narrow fight, ROTJ Sidious one-shots twice.

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Darthor

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@uhu123 said:

ROTS Sidious loses in a somewhat narrow fight

In which continuity? Also, I'm pretty sure in both that ROTJ Vader is confirmed above ROTS Sidious

ROTJ Sidious one-shots twice.

True

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Uhu123

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#13 Uhu123  Online

@darthor:

In which continuity?

Legends, in Canon Vader solos (although he is somewhat overrated, but that is a different discussion)

I'm pretty sure in both that ROTJ Vader is confirmed above ROTS Sidious

As you probably know, I pretty firmly disagree.

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Darthor

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@uhu123 said:

@darthor:

In which continuity?

Legends, in Canon Vader solos (although he is somewhat overrated, but that is a different discussion)

I see

I'm pretty sure in both that ROTJ Vader is confirmed above ROTS Sidious

As you probably know, I pretty firmly disagree.

Why?

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Uhu123

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#15 Uhu123  Online

@darthor: I disagree with ANH Vader > KFV and thus ROTS Sidious due to various conflicting sources, having a different interpretation of certain quotes in the EU and still valuing Lucas´ opinion on his own movies and the standing of the characters he created in them. I've been over this in numerous threads and quite frankly, are a little tired of this particular debate, which is why I refrain from it for the moment.

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Darthor

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@uhu123 said:

@darthor: I disagree with ANH Vader > KFV and thus ROTS Sidious due to various conflicting sources, having a different interpretation of certain quotes in the EU and still valuing Lucas´ opinion on his own movies and the standing of the characters he created in them. I've been over this in numerous threads and quite frankly, are a little tired of this particular debate, which is why I refrain from it for the moment.

I see. I've also debated this a lot and heard a lot of counter-arguments. I can relate you you not wanting to debate.

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frozen

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#17  Edited By frozen  Moderator  Online

ROTJ Sidious is wrecking in both continuinties.

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KrisBishop

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#18 KrisBishop  Moderator

They defeat RotS Sidious and lose to RotJ Sidious.

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donloota

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They defeat RotS Sidious and lose to RotJ Sidious.

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SheevSmacker

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Either solo him

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killbilly

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#22  Edited By killbilly  Moderator
@uhu123 said:

@darthor:

I'm pretty sure in both that ROTJ Vader is confirmed above ROTS Sidious

As you probably know, I pretty firmly disagree.

I mean, it's not really in doubt given the quotes confirming such. Though if you specific interpretations of other sources, they might draw you into conflict with the rest of continuity. Still, it's hard to argue quotes like these to mean something other than being related to combative power:

“As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side.” - Force And Destiny Core Rulebook.

-

"Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion." - Star Wars Visual Dictionary.

-

"Even his own generals could not escape Vader's wrath, and as time went by, the Sith's powers grew even stronger." - The Story Of Darth Vader.

-

"My Master ( Sidious ) seems pleased; his apprentice grows ever stronger." - Galactic Battlegrounds

-

"All his life he had been trained to turn fear into anger, and anger into power. It was no different, he realized, for Darth Vader. Where else could Lord Vader look for increased power than to the Emperor himself? People were either predators or prey. That was one of the most basic rules of life. Together, Darth Vader and his apprentice would ensure that their joint power only increased." - The Force Unleashed

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Uhu123

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#23 Uhu123  Online

@killbilly: These quotes have nothing to do with KF Vader and merely refer to Vaders growth post-Mustafar, due to the fact that Vader is confirmed to be weaker immediately after being injured, with these quotes merely confirming a growth starting from this diminished level. There are quotes stating suit > pre-suit Vader, but let's not twist sources that obviously refer to something different.

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killbilly

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#24  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

@uhu123: That's an interesting interpretation but for me it's hard to swing since none of the quotes that I'm referring to mention Mustafar or being applicable solely within the context of Vader being in the suit...

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Eredin12

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#25  Edited By Eredin12

@killbilly: Tbh never even thought about these but yea you are 100% right

As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side.” - Force And Destiny Core Rulebook.

Vader was Sidious's apprentice even as KFV, even since this part:

Loading Video...

he was Sith ever since then, so quote above or these below which refer to his power as Sith growing over time would include KFV by default

-

"Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion." - Star Wars Visual Dictionary.

-

"Even his own generals could not escape Vader's wrath, and as time went by, the Sith's powers grew even stronger." - The Story Of Darth Vader.

-

"My Master ( Sidious ) seems pleased; his apprentice grows ever stronger." - Galactic Battlegrounds

-

"All his life he had been trained to turn fear into anger, and anger into power. It was no different, he realized, for Darth Vader. Where else could Lord Vader look for increased power than to the Emperor himself? People were either predators or prey. That was one of the most basic rules of life. Together, Darth Vader and his apprentice would ensure that their joint power only increased." - The Force Unleashed

since as you pointed out none of the quotes mention Mustafar or being applicable solely within the context of Vader being in the suit and he was Sith then as well. So there are 5 more quotes that further back Vader being stronger, now Vader has 12 EU quotes establishing him as stronger while Anakin has only 4

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killbilly

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#26 killbilly  Moderator

@eredin12: Sheer number of sources would seem to favor a particular interpretation over others.

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Eredin12

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@eredin12: Sheer number of sources would seem to favor a particular interpretation over others.

Agreed

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CatMan5

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Canon

Vader solos round 1.

Dooku is useless in round 2, and Vader can't beat Palpatine alone.

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hellothere5432

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#29  Edited By hellothere5432
@uhu123 said:

@killbilly: These quotes have nothing to do with KF Vader and merely refer to Vaders growth post-Mustafar, due to the fact that Vader is confirmed to be weaker immediately after being injured, with these quotes merely confirming a growth starting from this diminished level. There are quotes stating suit > pre-suit Vader, but let's not twist sources that obviously refer to something different.

This. In full context, all were referencing Vader- post suit with several even directly mentioning Vader post-suit like the TFU quote or the Visual dictionary quote.

Regardless the number of quotes saying Anakin>Vader still outnumbers the quotes saying Vader>Anakin, even if we include all the quotes above.

Also, @uhu123, you may be interested in this but Vader was amped in ROTJ:

"His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within,and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground ... but he would wait."

Source: Return of the Jedi Novelisation

And resonated means:

No Caption Provided

So two more quotes saying Vader>Anakin in ROTJ are now invalid.

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Uhu123

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#30  Edited By Uhu123  Online

@hellothere5432: Thanks, although I take that quote to mean suited Vader by virtue of being from Vaders POV (who sees himself as distinct from Anakin only after Mustafar) anyway.

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killbilly

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#31  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

I apologize, I just realized I posted Vader's "growth quotes" as opposed to his "surpassing Anakin quotes."

“Vader survived, but not unscarred-his shattered body encased in life-supporting armor and a breath mask. In spite of these handicaps, Vader thrived. in fact, he found a way to turn these to his advantage. He had his breath mask crafted into a sinister black helmet and, donning a black cloak over his black armor, he became a figure out of a nightmare. From the ashes of defeat, Vader emerged even stronger.” - Lightsaber Dueling Pack: Darth Vader.

-

“Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.” - Beware the Sith.

-

“In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.” - Insider 62.

-

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been.” - Return of the Jedi.

-

"More powerful in the Force than ever before as well as a master of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star.” - Darth Vader Return of Anakin Skywalker.

A very silly mistake on my part. @hellothere5432@uhu123

@hellothere5432 said:

Regardless the number of quotes saying Anakin>Vader still outnumbers the quotes saying Vader>Anakin, even if we include all the quotes above.

Are you sure tbh? Maybe if we were to count every time Lucas reiterated a specific disputed point but I don't know that it's particularly useful to count every statement from an author/creator as it's own individual source.

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Eredin12

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#32  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432:

but Vader was amped in ROTJ:

Honestly, how can you this much not be able to read man? Do you see the" with sound" part in your quote which instantly would debunk the context in which you tried to use it? Instead, it would at most mean that his power produced a sound as it resonated with Emperors, if you really don't see that then:

No Caption Provided

Funny thing is that, even in your own flawed interpretation of yours that I debunked by your own vers dictionary scan, the increasing sound was only one out of 3 options, another being simply producing sound. What matters is that your quote states nothing at all about Vader being amped in ROTJ. The mere fact that was matched by Luke in their fight, who would if anything be weakened there, shows that he was not amped in any meaningful way

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hellothere5432

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@killbilly:

A very silly mistake on my part.

No worries. There's also a quote saying Vader became a different person entirely after Mustafar, physiologically, iirc.

Are you sure tbh? Maybe if we were to count every time Lucas reiterated a specific disputed point but I don't know that it's particularly useful to count every statement from an author/creator as it's own individual source.

That's certainly a plausible point tbh. Still even if we treat all the Lucas quotes as only one source, there are still 12 quotes in total saying Anakin>Vader, as opposed to the 5 saying Vader> Anakin.

Also since Vader was in Sidious's presence in ROTJ, he was amped as Sidious was noted as amping dark-siders when they were in his presence. Thus the 2 quotes saying ROTJ Vader>KFV aren't useable:

During the Rebellion era, dark side devotees become a bit more open, drawn by the power of the Emperor and their acceptance into his court. They are much easier to find anywhere in the Empire, especially in the Imperial Palace, where their power is focused and augmented by that of the Emperor.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

(credit to Uhu123)

@eredin12

Honestly, how can you this much not be able to read man? Do you see the" with sound"part in your quote which instantly would debunk the context in which you tried to use it? Instead, it would at most mean that his power produced a sound as it resonated with Emperors, if you really don't see that then:

Eredin, when you're not using the force directly like Vader wasn't during that part of the novel, it doesn't make any noise. Provide a source saying so.

Regardless as I showed and explained above above, Vader was amped in ROTJ. Open and shut.

The mere fact that was matched by Luke in their fight, who would if anything be weakened there, shows that he was not amped in any meaningful way

How does Luke matching Vader mean in any way that Vader wasn't amped? And Vader was amped.

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Eredin12

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#34  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432:

Eredin, when you're not using the force directly like Vader wasn't during that part of the novel, it doesn't make any noise. Provide a source saying so.

Regardless as I showed and explained above above, Vader was amped in ROTJ. Open and shut.

your own quote for one lol, I just need to use the scan you used:

No Caption Provided

It is about sound, that is the definition of your own very scan,so in this case, it did produce sound, as he was powering up pretty much". You showed that his power produced sound, not that he was amped:

No Caption Provided

thanks for that I guess but I fail to see the relevance of that

How does Luke matching Vader mean in any way that Vader wasn't amped? And Vader was amped.

Because Luke is equal to normal non amped Vader and would be weakened in presence of the Emperor if anything, so him matching his father equally in blade lock, shows that Vader is not stronger by any meaningful amount, or we would see it when he fought someone who is at best equal to his non-amped self. Denial is not an argument Hellothere

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killbilly

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#35  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

@hellothere5432: No worries. There's also a quote saying Vader became a different person entirely after Mustafar, physiologically, iirc.

In a technical sense I suppose that's true since he now no longer possesses the physical limbs he had as Anakin, but in reality, he remains the same individual that he was before his loss of limbs. His genetic structure remains unchanged and he retains all of the memories and experiences that he had before entering the suit, even if he does look back on who he was before with disdain. That's simply called "regret and bitterness" though.

It is those experiences that make up an individual, not whether or not they are physically and genetically identical otherwise Arcann and Thexann ( pre-injuries ) would be the same being. Or Galen and Starkiller.

To provide some context for my example, while Boba Fett and the clones share the same genetic code, an accolade stating that Boba is the most deadly bounty hunter in the Galaxy or "the quickest draw" would not necessarily apply to any random Clone trooper. In that sense, a third person quote addressing Vader's power in a general sense has no reason to ignore his time before entering the suit.

That's certainly a plausible point tbh. Still even if we treat all the Lucas quotes as only one source, there are still 12 quotes in total saying Anakin>Vader, as opposed to the 5 saying Vader> Anakin.

There are 11 non Lucas quotes stating Anakin's superiority over Vader. While I may have come across a few of them, I don't remember ever seeing that many. I'd be interested in looking them over if you have them.

Also since Vader was in Sidious's presence in ROTJ, he was amped as Sidious was noted as amping dark-siders when they were in his presence. Thus the 2 quotes saying ROTJ Vader>KFV aren't useable:

The two quotes confirming his superiority as of RotJ do not seem to address Sidious as a factor. That would like discounting an "Exar Kun was at the height of his powers during his assault on the ____ system" because he also amped himself off of an external energy source at some point during that timeframe.

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hellothere5432

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#36  Edited By hellothere5432

@eredin12:

your own quote for one lol

It is about sound, that is the definition of your own very scan ,so in this case it did produce sound, as he was powering up pretty much. You showed that his power produced sound, not that he was amped, thanks for that i guess but i fail to see relevance of that

No Eredin, Resonate has many differentmeanings. In this context, it wouldn't' be referring to sound since the force has never been noted as producing a sound while not being used directly, the way Vader wasn't using it directly in that part of the novel.

In this context, it would only be referring to Vader's power increasing since that's the only definition which would make sense in that context.

Also its irrelevant anyway since Sidious amps dark-sider's when they are in his presence:

During the Rebellion era, dark side devotees become a bit more open, drawn by the power of the Emperor and their acceptance into his court. They are much easier to find anywhere in the Empire, especially in the Imperial Palace, where their power is focused and augmented by that of the Emperor.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

(credit to Uhu123)

Vader was in Sidious's presence in ROTJ. Thus he was amped. Open and Shut.

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Eredin12

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#37  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432:

No Eredin, Resonate has many differentmeanings. In this context, it wouldn't' be referring to sound since the force has never been noted as producing a sound while not being used directly, the way Vader wasn't using it directly in that part of the novel.

In this context, it would only be referring to Vader's power increasingsince that's the only definition which would make sense in that context.

Also its irrelevant anyway since Sidious amps dark-sider's when they are in his presence:

That is why we had those waves right? He was powering up, hence why sound could happen

Okay, we first need to note that the scan you used being able to be used in the context you tried was debunked by itself, increasing referred only to sound in the dictionary you used in the context of word Resonate, shameful but still, let's see some other meanings now:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

This one simply states to produce vibration, it does not even need to be sound, it can be vibration in force in this context, nothing about amp though

Vader was in Sidious's presence in ROTJ. Thus he was amped. Open and Shut.Also its irrelevant anyway since Sidious amps dark-sider's when they are in his presence:

Dark side devotees being amped in an unrelated instance does not mean Vader was. If he was then he would not be matched equally by Luke, as Luke is equal to non amped Vader, and in presence of dark Side nexus like Emperor, he would be weakened, as light siders are weakened there, yet he was still equal to his father on Death Star, meaning we simply do not see any amp being present, and even if we ignored everything and said that he was amped it could only be very small/ meaningless amount that does not affect anything really, or we would see an effect in a fight between Vader and Luke but we did not

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hellothere5432

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#38  Edited By hellothere5432

@killbilly:

In a technical sense I suppose that's true since he now no longer possesses the physical limbs he had as Anakin, but in reality, he remains the same individual that he was before his loss of limbs. His genetic structure remains unchanged and he retains all of the memories and experiences that he had before entering the suit, even if he does look back on who he was before with disdain. That's simply called "regret and bitterness" though. It is those experiences that make up an individual, not whether or not they are physically and genetically identical otherwise Arcann and Thexann would be the same being. Or Galen and Starkiller.

Fair. Still, Vader's injuries weakening him at first is undeniable, so the quotes saying he grew afterward wouldn't apply to KFV:

It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith—Because now your self is all you will ever have. And your rage and scream will reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow. In the end, you do not even want to.

-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Darth Vader pledged his loyalty to Darth Sidious as the Clone Wars came to an end. Kneeling before his dark master, Vader assumed the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith. His first assignment was to wipe out the Jedi Temple. After Vader was defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi and suffered severe injuries, his power was diminished. Darth Sidious rebuilt his apprentice, but kept his sickly yellow eye open for another who could take his place.

-Starwars.com

To provide some context for my example, while Boba Fett and the clones share the same genetic code, an accolade stating that Boba is the most deadly bounty hunter in the Galaxy or "the quickest draw" would not necessarily apply to any random Clone trooper. In that sense, a third person quote addressing Vader's power has no reason to ignore his time before entering the suit.

I agree, but Vader instantly after receiving the Suit, was definitely weaker than KFV. So the quotes saying Vader grew after that wouldn't apply to him.

I might make a blog on this topic, since it seems to be one of the most talked about topics in SW legends atm.

There are 11 non Lucas quotes stating Anakin's superiority over Vader. While I may have come across a few of them, I don't remember ever seeing that many. I'd be interested in looking them over if you have them.

They're on this thread:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/knightfall-anakin-skywalker-vs-rotj-darth-vader-le-1915549/?page=2

The two quotes confirming his superiority as of RotJ do not seem to address Sidious as a factor. That would like discounting an "Exar Kun was at the height of his powers during his assault on the ____ system" because he also amped himself off of an external energy source at some point during that timeframe.

The quote from the ROTJ novel does address Sidious as a factor. The second quote also states Vader was stronger than ever when he was leading the Empire against the Rebels, when Sidious was there, therefore amping Vader.

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killbilly

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#39  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

@hellothere5432: Fair. Still, Vader's injuries weakening him at first is undeniable, so the quotes saying he grew afterward wouldn't apply to KFV:

That's fair and I agree that Vader can't reliably be proved to be above his pre-suit self until ANH since that's the first point where we have explicit confirmation. I really didn't mean to post those growth quotes in my initial post since, while they might have relevancy to those who argue Vader surpassed his non-suited self pre-ANH, I don't tend to argue that position myself ( though I've heard convincing arguments for it ).

I might make a blog on this topic, since it seems to be one of the most talked about topics in SW legends atm.

I think that'd be a great idea honestly. Definitely tag me if you do.

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hellothere5432

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@eredin12:

But he was, that is why we had those waves right? He was powering up

Okay, we first need to note that the scan you used was debunked by itself, and increasing referred only to sound in dictionary you used in context of word Resonate, shameful but still, let's see some other meanings now:

Eredin, nothing in SW has ever shown the force making noise when it is being used passively. Nothing in the film also shows the force making noise when Vader was feeling it.

It's very clearly talking about Vader's power increasing as a result of being in Sidious's presence, not Vader's power making noise when amped by Sidious. Seriously, find me any single other example of force user's power making noise when amped by force nexus's.

Dark sidedevoteesbeing amped in an unrelated instance does not mean Vader was.

People who use the dark-side are amped when in Sidious's presence. Vader uses the dark side. Vader was in Sidious's presence. This cannot get any simpler.

If he was then he would not be matched equally by Luke, as Luke is equal to non amped Vader, and in presence of dark Side nexus like Emperor, he would be weakened, as light siders are weakened there, yet he was still equal to his father on Death Star, meaning we simply do not see any amp being present,

When is Luke stated to be equal to non-amped Vader? He's only stated to be an equal of Vader in their fight, when Vader was amped.

and even if we ignored everything and said that he was amped it could only be very small/ meaningless amount that does not affect anything really, or we would see an effect in a fight between Vader and Luke but we did not

Based on absolutely nothing. I could just as easily say this proves Vader isn't as strong as you think or that Luke is stronger than you think.

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Eredin12

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#41  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432:

Eredin, nothing in SW has ever shown the force making noise when it is being used passively. Nothing in the film also shows the force making noise when Vader was feeling it.

It's very clearly talking about Vader's power increasing as a result of being in Sidious's presence, not Vader's power making noise when amped by Sidious. Seriously, find me any single other example of force user's power making noise when amped by force nexus's.

Hellothere, only a single one of definitions for word resonates, in the dictionary, you used(Cambridge), with "increasing" as part in it, is when it is about sound and only there. So if you want to use Cambridge which you did, then it has to be the case this time, you cannot use one part of it which gives the option" increasing" while completely ignoring only the context in which that word can be used when talking about word resonates. You say "oh but we don't hear it" that is true, but you are ignoring the fact that:

Sounds with a frequency lower than 20 Hz cannot be heard by humans and are referred to as infrasonic.

Ultrasound is the name given to sound waves that have frequencies greater than 20,000Hz (20 kHz). This is above the normal hearing range for humans, so we cannot hear ultrasound.

Sources: https://www.papertrell.com/apps/preview/The-Handy-Anatomy-Answer-Book/Handy%20Answer%20book/What-word-is-used-to-describe-sounds-too-low-for-humans-to-h/001137015/content/SC/52cb00d482fad14abfa5c2e0_default.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zwd2bk7/revision/3

So it is possible to make a sound, that resonates like stated here, which is consistent by your own dictionary scan about sound, while at the same time we cannot hear it due to being lower than 20 Hz or higher than 20K Hz which would explain why we never hear it in SW. That would make all sense, right?OR alternatively, you can also just use my own dictionary scan that it can mean vibration as well, so vibration in force, but not an amp( which i really have no idea where you got from)

People who use the dark-side are amped when in Sidious's presence. Vader uses the dark side. Vader was in Sidious's presence. This cannot get any simpler.

When is Luke stated to be equal to non-amped Vader? He's only stated to be an equal of Vader in their fight, when Vader was amped.

Based on absolutely nothing. I could just as easily say this proves Vader isn't as strong as you think or that Luke is stronger than you think.

Luke is noted as equal to Vader all around:

A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. Source: Shadows of the Empire

If that was only case when Vader was amped, then obviously they would not be equals, as Vader would be amped while Luke would be weakened, so you would basically be saying that Luke is far more powerful than Vader normally, which is quite ridiculous, that combined with Vader never even being indicated to be amped, makes your argument null

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SonOfDarkness

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#42  Edited By SonOfDarkness

Team takes round 1

Sidious wins round 2

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hellothere5432

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#43  Edited By hellothere5432

@eredin12:

Hello there,only a single oneof definitions for word resonates, in the dictionary, you used(Cambridge), with "increasing" as part in it,is when it is about soundandonly there.So if you want to use Cambridge which you did, then it has to be the case this time, you canon use one part of it which gives the option" increasing" while ignoring the context in which that word can be used when talking about word resonates. You say "oh but we don't hear it" that is true, but you are ignoring fact that

It said increasing or creating sound.Either Vader's power is creating sound from Sidious's power(which makes no sense and has never been touched upon or happened ever before) or Vader's power is being increased by Sidious's power.

So it is possible to make a sound, that resonates like here, while we cannot hear it due to being lower than 20 Hz, which would make sense, even you cannot deny this right?

Eredin, if noise was randomly being generated, it would of been noted during the film production.Not to mention this literally never happening before or afterwards. Force user's have never been noted as making noise when being amped by a nexus. Literally find me a single other example of the force making noise when its user is amped by a nexus.

Which do you think it's referring to?

A) The Force randomly making noise when amped by a nexus which is never noted during the film production nor ever shown to be a possibility in all of SW. In all the countless instances of force user's being amped by nexus's never where they noted to make noise.

B) The resonatingpart is referencing to Vader's power increasing, another definition of resonating and the lore consistent one.

B) is clearly the option here.

And even if we ignore that, we have an indisputable quote saying Sidious amps dark-siders when they are in his presence. Vader is a dark-sider. Vader was in Sidious's presence in ROTJ. Thus Vader was amped.

Luke is noted as equal to Vader all around:

How in any way does Vader needing to contend with equals make him and Luke equals. Needing to contend with equals is not in anyway a sign of parity.

If that was only case when Vader was amped, then obviously they would not be equals, as Vader would be amped while Luke would be weakened, so you would basically be saying that Luke is far more powerful than Vader normally, which is quite ridiculous, that combined with Vader never even being indicated to be amped, makes your argument null

Firstly, when were dark-side nexuses ever noted as hindering light-side users?

Secondly, it doesn't matter what you think of it. Two quotes make it clear Vader was amped, therefore he was amped. Nothing in the film contradicts this.Get over it.

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killbilly

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#44  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

Firstly, when were dark-side nexuses ever noted as hindering light-side users?

To be fair, we do have quotes of Darkside nexuses hindering Lightsiders, granted, this isn't a universal mechanic:

"Those connected to the light side of the Force find their powers diminished in these places, while those who wield the dark side are amazed at the strength that they gain, even as that energy overwhelms them." - The Jedi Training Academy Manual.

I plan on going into this subject more in my nexus blog which I'm still working on currently.

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hellothere5432

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@killbilly:

To be fair, we do have quotes of Darkside nexuses hindering Lightsiders, granted, this isn't a universal mechanic:

Ah ok. Thanks.

I plan on going into this subject more in my nexus blog which I'm still working on currently.

Nice. Could you tag me when you've finished it? Thanks.

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killbilly

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#46 killbilly  Moderator

@killbilly:

I plan on going into this subject more in my nexus blog which I'm still working on currently.

Nice. Could you tag me when you've finished it? Thanks.

Absolutely. 👍

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Eredin12

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#47  Edited By Eredin12

@hellothere5432:

It said increasing or creating sound.Either Vader's power is creating sound from Sidious's power(which makes no sense and has never been touched upon or happened ever before) or Vader's power is being increased by Sidious's power.

It said increasing, producing or filling the room with sound, all of these 3 options in this definition are talking about sound. About sound-producing, increasing or filling the room with.

No Caption Provided

And as the only context in which increasing can be used as a possible option for this word in your own dictionary is with is when it is about sound, you cannot use this word to argue that his powers increased, only that he produced sound, or maybe increased it.But one to low or high for us to hear. You are now again saying " oh bit it never happened before" I was over reasons for why we do not hear it, and why that does not mean sound was not there, there are limits to what we can hear.

.Not to mention this literally never happening before or afterwards. Force user's have neverbeen noted as making noise when being amped by a nexus. Literally find me a single other example of the force making noise when its user is amped by a nexus.

Eredin, if noise was randomly being generated, it would of been noted during the film production

Which do you think it's referring to?

A) The Force randomly making noise when amped by a nexus which is never noted during the film production nor ever shown to be a possibility in all of SW. In all the countless instances of force user's being amped by nexus's never where they noted to make noise.

B) The resonatingpart is referencing to Vader's power increasing, another definition of resonating and the lore consistent one.

B) is clearly the option here.

And even if we ignore that, we have an indisputable quote saying Sidious amps dark-siders when they are in his presence. Vader is a dark-sider. Vader was in Sidious's presence in ROTJ. Thus Vader was amped.

Vader was not amped by nexus here, instead, it was his own power and Emperor meeting that made this sound/vibration, etc, which is what your quote says, that his power/ emperors power produced sound, again your own dictionary

Now, this is just next-level hypocrisy, do you really have no shame? You say if that was the case it would be noted during film production, yet you know damn well that Emperor amping Vader in any way was never noted or implied during ROTJ production and you try to argue it.

Maybe in your head but not in your dictionary though, and I think official dictionary should have more meaning than your head, in it the only definition that has word increased as part of it is when talking only about sound increasing

That would work if your quote said that dark sides that are in his presence are amped but it did not do so, only lesser fodder ones are.

How in any way does Vader needing to contend with equals make him and Luke equals. Needing to contend with equals is not in anyway a sign of parity.

Firstly, when were dark-side nexuses ever noted as hindering light-side users?

Secondly, it doesn't matter what you think of it. Two quotes make it clear Vader was amped, therefore he was amped. Get over it.

Because quote then makes it clear that Luke is said to equal

Killbilly already did that

They do not though, , your own dictionary debunked that option, with only increasing being option for sound for word resonate, not power, you pulled that one completely out of your own ass, another option for word is also vibrating, but neither implies being amped, therefore he was not amped. Get over it

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Uhu123

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#48  Edited By Uhu123  Online

As a side note, Luke was only matching/outperforming Vader when drawing on the dark side, meaning Palpatine being a nexus would not hinder him, in fact, it might arguably amp Luke more due to his vastly superior potential.

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hellothere5432

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Vader gets one-tapped, Dooku dies after 1 minute.