Cosmic Telepaths team vs Mutant Telepath team

TELEPATHY ONLY

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Cosmic team:

• Thanos,
• Silver Surfer
• Dr. Strange
• Sentry
• Moondragon with Mind Gem

Mutant Team:

• Jean Grey
• Xavier
• Exodus
• Mr. Sinister
• Cassandra Nova
• Rachel Grey
• Emma Frost
• Psylocke
• Shadow King
• Stepford Cuckoos 5in1

Team Cosmic ;)

👀

why is the mind gem there this would be tough enough without the cosmic team getting ammped

but even with it i don't see anyone beating chuck

I agree. The mind gem doesn’t even give that big of a power-up too. Aside from passive scans across the universe, most of its most impressive feats have usually required it to have an amp of sorts, usually the soul gem, power gem, or some other conduit.

I see the cosmic team winning in some scenario’s, but it’s honestly difficult to account how powerful these telepath’s will be with their powers put together.

Team 2 wins.

The Mutants.

All of the cosmic telepaths have great psychic defences but are seriously lacking in offence. They can only defend for so long before they get overwhelmed.

Mutants due to having more offensive telepathy within context.

Thanos, Strange and Moondragon are the only ones worth noting on their team as Surfer doesn't really use TP alot and I don't ever remember Sentry using it.

Team 2 probably overwhelms them.

I am pretty sure Strange can deal with any of the mutants 1v1, can't actually recall any really impressive offensive TP feats for Thanos, Norrin and Sentry barely use offensive TP (unless this is Void), what's Heather's best showings with the Mind Gem?

The mutants do have some heavy hitters, the numbers advantage and having more experience/skill with TP in general, would probably back them tbh.

Team 2

Mutants

Mutants will likely overwhelm team 1

Mutants

The cosmic team looks like a lot...

Thanos, Strange and Moondragon are the only ones worth mentioning though. Can those 3 handle all those mutants in TP?

@takenstew22: I think surfer has shown some good skill.

Sentry is all raw power, but not really as skilled as others here.

I think if Thanos or Strange is given the mind stone it'll give the cosmic team a better chance at winning.

But yeah, the mutants numbers is a bit much.

Thanos at his weakest required moondragon, mantis and Cosmo to restrain him and they were struggling. A full powered Thanos would need Atleast Jean and Xavier focusing on him (I don't know if the OP allows swapping of gear, but giving him the mind gem would them require, shadow king and Cassandra nova to join in).

I think sentry can be left up to Emma and her cuckoos, as she's the most familiar with his mind.

Dr strange is actually a beast with tp, I think he can take on a team of exodus, sinister and psylocke

Surfer should be able to take on Cassandra nova and shadow king (if Thanos doesn't get the mind gem. If he does and these two are fighting Thanos, then surfer joins strange which makes the win for comics easier)

Current moondragon can probably take down Rachel. (if I don't get to swap the mind gem to Thanos, then I think Rachel will need Atleast 2 people to back her up. Removing 1 or 2 peoplen from surfer and strangers fights, would just make them win easier and back up Thanos or moonie)

I think there are scenarios where the cosmic telrpaths can win, despite the number of mutants they are facing

@del_torro: Alright. Good analysis.

@del_torro: Lol, stop with the Moondragon wank.

@koays: come on, current moondragon is a fusion of 616 moondragon, an alternate universe moondragon (that can give infinity gems gamora a run for her money) and the dragon of the moon.

She's already on the same level as Rachel, add the mind stone and she gets more fire power.

Mutants win high difficulty

@del_torro: Lol, no. Giving a no feat character we know for a fact doesn't have basic TP resistance trouble means nothing.

You've been pushing this fusion narrative for a while, but it's been triply debunked every times she's used her powers since the merged.

Pre merge Moondragons only meaningful defeat was over 616 Moondragon.

Since the merge Moondragon was overwhelmed by the mind of just one of Knulls dragons. And basically laughed at by Doom.

Classic Mindgem Moondragon was on panel struggling against 90s Jean and Psylocke.

So what combination of these mediocre feats requires Rachel and multiple other psychics to beat her?

Rachel ripped through the mind of a Death Goddess and restrained her for an issue while sending her teammates through the Goddesses mindscape and time-line with using her secondary powers.

This is like 3 weeks after Merged Moondragon was overwhelmed by a single Knull dragon....

So since her mindgem feats are trash, and her merged power levels are seemingly the same as they were, I'm gonna need a little help seeing how any version of Moondragon we can come up with is gonna require a whole team of psychics that includes Rachel.

@pyrofn: @cosmic_reign: @marvelfan1992: @oraclefromhel: @onsipin: @lordofallhumans: @takenstew22: @sar_annihilator: @del_torro: @emmafrostxmen: @koays: Oof, the numbers are making me lean team mutant, sentry is too much of a wildcard in tp to be reliable, he could probably tp betsy and the cuckoo's and maybe stall out rachel, thanos and surfer have the resistance to take any 2 mutant telepaths head on and in the case of surfer he's got feats of fighting and winning against cosmic entities stated to be on par with galactus(refer to pyrofn and the moondragon respect thread).

From what I remember S. Strange has really good feats but I'm not sure they would be applicable as effective in a 1v2 or even 1v3 situation.

For team cosmic to win less sentry and Moondragon would have to play defense until either surfer/thanos/strange finish their fights. And thanos ain't winning if he's got to fight either jean or chuck as part of his opposition. Surfer could also destroy psionic energy with his own(shown against the others), but against this stacked them would be hard.

Imo team mutant 7/10 to 7.5/10

In 1v1's mutant team would lose tho.

This is just wrong, as always "Ryan". A lot of the cosmic telepaths have feats of fighting cosmic entities in tp or even shutting down xavier and making him comatose(moondragon) ...

While team mutant has its fodder(betsy and cuckoo's) they also have super high tiers that people like sentry couldn't handle.

@godlyshinigami: wrong.

1) talking about Gamora? True regular gamora may not have telepathy feats or resistance. But possession of the mind stone alone gave turk barret, a nobody, telepathy and he was going around mind controlling and wind wiping people like it was a joke. Gamorras infinity warps feat was explained as her using the soul stone to amplify the mind stone and fuse the minds and souls of the population in earth, and it took a skilled telepath like Emma to go around undoing it to people, so we cant just write it off.

If Gamora with all the infinity stones is pulling off high end feats like that, then Moondragon tussling with her should be a good feat

2) I mean yeah, she's obviously not as strong as I expected her to be, but it was still stated on panel that shes stronger. It's not the first time a character gets an Amp, but doesn't show much for it, that's pretty much the same case with Rachel.

Even if we ignore the fusion and say it doesn't increase strength, she still has access to the dragon of the moon, which amps moondragons power.

3) once again, I stand with her feat against Gamora (wielding all the infinity stones) being a good feat. There's also the time she was in the minds of 7 Olympic gods (including Zeus, a sky father), masking her team from them, at the same time amping Phylla vells powers and linking all her teammates to communicate across wide distances in space.

4)Eh... Classic moondragon fighting Jean and then fighting psylocke in the backgrounds of a big battle in just one panel and not being shown again is a real stretch to say she was struggling against them... Just seems like a super harsh verdict,

5) I was just kind of going off theory that a superior moondragon (classic +hero verse fused) using the dragon of the moon and the mind gem would be a formidable opponent. Since a better mastery of psychic knowledge would mean more powerful use of the mind gem or something (like Xavier being able to tap into the universal consciousness with it, compared to turk barret wwho got hand waved by Dr strange despite having the mind gem)

6)well, I already mentioned moondragon using telepathy on Zeus and 6 other Olympic gods, and then later completely mind fucking one of the Olympians, and then a feat of reading the minds of two Elders of the universe without their permission. That's ignoring her showing against gamora. She's pretty much on the same level as Rachel.

7) Eh... Except Moonie had no issue connecting with the mind of the Dragon, it was later when Knull himself stepped in and possessed the dragon that she got taken out. Knull was the one who beat moondragon. I doubt if Rachel could have done better there.

8) well, like I said, just me theorizing a bit that current Moonie should have better mastery of the mind gem. Of course I have no proof apart from theoretical stuff I already posted, so I'll just back off

@del_torro:

1- Your inserting qualifiers where they don't exist.

"It took a skilled telepath like Emma Frost"

No, they just happened to have Emma Frost. Emma being the one to do it, doesn't mean only Emma could do it, and it certainly doesn't mean that Gamora is suddenly a capable telepath or telepathic fighter.

When Ms. Marvel was dropped in her mindscape there was no great telepathic feat of resistance or showing of great mind control.

So Moondragons feat was a feat of someone against a person without feats.

2- And again not showing any power increase or any other boost basically leaves her with access to JUST her feats.

Not having a scalable power up is one thing, but your scaling her to a point where she's somehow gonna require multiple psychics to hang with her despite base Moondragon with the same amps being shown to struggle against far weaker psychics.

Your basically trying to get merged moondragon over current Rachel, when Moondragon with the Mindgem wasnt even above 90s Jean let alone Xavier.

3- Your standing with a hide and seek feat is my problem.

Like that doesn't put her on Rachel's level, but your not only using that to push that she's stronger, but to push that she's so strong that with the mindstone it's gonna require Rachel PLUS TWO other psychics to handle her....its a horrible reach for a character that is pretty featless in almost all aspects of combat even with base moondragons feats.

4- Yea, but the problem is that it fits with everything else Moondragon has ever done with the mindgem.

Getting no sold by Surfer? Resisted by Avengers? Moondragon is the most frequent holder of the Mindgem behind Warlock and is the most disappointing.

If she is supposed to be so powerful then adding the Mindgem should make her a curbstomp machine, but we've never seen it. Which makes me think it isn't true.

5- My problem is always gonna go back to the fact that a large bulk of the evidence to support this would have to be in 616 Moondragons catalogue....she's just not a super skilled telepath or noticeably powerful telepath that it makes me go "Wow, with the mind gem she'd be unstoppable!" and then since we've seen 616 Moondragon actually use the Mindgem with the effectiveness of a paperweight, my confidence in making this leap in logic for her isn't there.

6- Moondragons mindscrew of the Olympians is gonna be in question for me because it's featless. Outside of being God's these aren't particularly noteworthy ones for mental prowess or reality warping or anything.

What brings me down on them, is that almost any anti-feat applied to Ares would apply to them right? And there's some VERY questionable ones as far as his own mindcontrol

7- Nah, she met Knull in the mind of the dragon, he's in the mind of all of his creatures as shown in Venom.

By scaling Rachel's resisted sneak attacks from worst at weaker levels.

8-

Like I said, my main issue is just that the argument is going too far.

616- Moondragon is underwhelming

Infinity Moondragon is lacking feats

Merged Moondragon- is near featless and has poor scaling.

So putting a bunch of mediocre people together and saying it would take an army of psychics to beat them really gets to me the more in think about it.

xavier has had 3 upgrades since then and even then her beating him based off feats they both had at the time this happened is bogus not to mention all onslaught is is xavier's darkside and him no longer holding back surfer resisted her with the mindgem and he isn't nearly as powerful chuck in pure telepathy

As always, "Olorun", you talk out of your *** and make baseless arguments instead of providing actual scans to prove your points, which is why I never take you seriously.

Fighting a cosmic entity means NOTHING unless the cosmic entity has noteworthy telepathy feats. You continuously prop up the "cosmic" telepaths but I have yet to see you make a convincing argument or provide scans. Having impressive range does absolutely nothing in terms of an actual psychic battle.

Moondragon w/ the Mind Gem beat Xavier. Current Xavier would stomp Moondragon.

@comic_book_fan: incoherent rambling.

Xavier was shutdown by moondragon and she didnt even try. Onslaught is very debated to be amped by mags' emotions. Not only that what are his psionic feats in base?? Didn't he require nate to simply merge the mind of the planet earth?? That's hardly impressive, surfer the first time he used his tp in his '87 merged the mind and emotions of everyone on the planet earth, he not once trained for such a feat. This is 34 years later where with the help of ego(because he was weakened after fighting knull) reached out to every mind(both sentient and non sentient) in the universe and joined their power to birth captain universe(the enigma force).

And lol at xavier having more "raw power" when norrin has mentally fought multiversal cosmic entities like the other and destroyed portions of it.

And also fought the great one someone who was said to be as powerful as galactus and had a whole universe of planets turned into psionic energy held up by him, spoilers norrin ends up stalemating this beings psionic power and ends up putting him in a coma because he destroyed one of the planets with pure psionic power. Xavier could never.

@geekryan: "baseless arguments" let's not try to use sayings we don't know the meaning of shall we? It's not baseless because there is an established basis. A baseless statement would be me saying "the sentry is the most powerful telepath because... Because he just is" that's baseless, it's not based off of anything. But I established my basis on... You know... Feats.. Regardless of whether you accept them or not.

You seem to be mad at me and I quite don't know why.

The feats against the great ones are detailed and discussed in the moondragon respect thread.

Sure maybe xavier beats moondragon, no one denied this at all.

again this is an amped moondragon against xavier who has had 3 power ups since then and was still in his stoic mind set xavier has the dark phoenix fight which he stalmated before jean stepped in and helped him and xavier has been able to combine every mind on earth since he was 12 the only reason he needed cerebro is because of magneto who could block basic moondragon too but after fatal attractions he didn't need that he also defeated a non dying ego and entered galactus mind thanos needed moondragon's help to do that

It is baseless, because what you state is purely subjective and you never back up your arguments with proof.

The definition of baseless: "without supporting facts", "not based on facts", "without foundation in fact"

Even with the Mind Gem, Moondragon would lose to current Xavier or Jean. Half of the mutant team have dealt with the Phoenix Force, i.e. a cosmic entity with actual telepathic feats.

@comic_book_fan: lmao pls, it's already been discussed, xavier was being dragged by the phoenix and not at all stalemating it, and the points he was able to stand up to it, it was jean who was massively holding the phoenix back. Xavier has scaling feats to medium-high mutant characters, but he simply doesn't hold a candle to abstracts nor their peers.

Unironically lying about the ego feat?? Lmao, surfer laced a net that significantly lowered ego psionic defenses, it was the only reason as to why he was able to enter ego's mind in the first place. Again moondragon entered galactus mind, galactus doesn't have his psionic defenses up because no one would be able to mentally hurt him without him noticing and stomping them. Point in case; thanos

Xavier joining all minds on the planet?? Since when? He may be able to read all the minds on the planet but he's never joined them. Only instance of him doing so was him sending the emotions of every dead skrull onto galactus. Again I'm not hating on xavier, he simply doesnt have the feats of fighting against cosmic entities without major help, not even stalemating them.

@geekryan: *sigh* even if it was based on a lie(which it isn't) it still wouldnt be baseless, once disproved then it would indeed be baseless, but I've stated my sources and where a discussion on the subject has been had. It's you who refuse to check the thread. Also, there's a Difference between misinterpreted and baseless.

Anywho let's stay on topic, we both love X-men, betsy and telepaths so what do you disagree with me on? Surfer being a top-tier telepath? That the cuckoo's are fodder here? I mean it's true at best they're minor stepping stops served to slightly slowdown a single individual. Same for betsy unfortunately.

OMG YES MHMHM

@comic_book_fan: I was addressing the actual context behind xavier's feats, him always needing massive help. I'm pretty sure he only looks for positive feelings and funnels them onto cyclops when facing the znox people. Surfer simply has feats against more formidable opponents, no one is lowballing no one and I've stated that X-men win at the end.

@superprimetime: hmmm, they win but it is close because the top 3 cosmic telepaths could take on any 2 characters together and stall until further help comes, and if they happen to catch a lowee level character like the cuckoo's betsy rachel or even sinister then they would sweep that duo in almost an instance and turn the tides easily.

I see your scan of Moondragon catching Xavier off-guard when he only wanted a simple conversation and raise you a scan of Xavier actually prepared, which allows him to identify the Infinity Watch before Moondragon manages to block him.

And I further raise you Xavier blocking Moondragon.

And I further raise you a 90’s Jean Grey stalemating Mind Gem Moondragon when Jean was weaker than Xavier and her current self today.