@LordOfAllHumans: Sure cheers much appreciated. Also if there are any other debates, including any other cosmic beings that you know of, which are being debated using proper scans then feel free to PM me, i love reading those =)
@matmatxm8: you are wrong. WPOTC(unlimited powers) >Dark phoenix(unlimited powers)>>>>>>infinite times>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fully fed galactus(limited powers)
and you are only telling feats like supes defeated so and so. how can you say that those monitor or mandrak or.... whatever else are on phoenix levels.
Phoenix once holded a universe in her palms.and healed it. Does supes has any feats like that? or has he ever destroyed a universe or galaxy?
and wpotc = phoenix force (a multiversal cosmic entity) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cosmic being.
oh please troll harder :-)
It is the first time I've heard a word combination of "multiversal cosmic".
Since when did you made a name for it?
Last time I remember, Phoenix is just an abstract entity.
and for dark Phoenix, she maybe strong but her weakness is same with human.
This is Captain Adam, (the one that looks like Dr. Manhattan), transferring superman in a higher reality, time and
dimension.
Now I would like you to give me a scan about dark Phoenix being stronger than Galactus, then I'll yield.
I suspect that you are just an anime fan that doesn't really own a single comic because your place doesn't sell comics.
If my deduction is correct then I would like you to go back into your anime world, because you know nothing about the world of comics
@matmatxm8: @Sniber: guys lets take it down a notch, name calling, for either side is not really warranted.
Also White Phoenix never healed the entire universe on her own anyways. Most importantly it was an orphan, baby universe only 150 years old, and in marvel comics and well science generally universe expands with age. Also its unsure if its actually the the either universe she is holding or its symbolic. Then we have the fact that all Jean did was remove the atoms of Sublime from the universe, who were said to be bacteria gone rogue. She didnt do that on her own, she had help with various Phoenix avatar, all of whom died before the process was complete. It also took Jean 6 pages of prep and by her own admission it wasnt easy. The feat doesnt put her at universal level at least to me, let alone higher, and thats her best feat.
@matmatxm8: that's because galactus fully fed had never fought phoenix. that time galactus was not fully fed. and dark phoenix.so even if we consider dark phoenix = fuuly fed galactus. still wpotc > galactus. If you are not convinced then start a thread wpotc vs galactus. surely everyone will say that wpotc > fully fed galctus.there is no other way, neither theory nor facts are there on basis of which we can compare them.
I know you have not read Excalibur or any comics because you don't own one.
You're not a legitimate man to prove that white phoenix beats a cosmic version of superman.
Phoenix is just an abstract.
please, next time, i hope you stop inventing silly words like "multiversal cosmic" to win an argument, you can't fool actual readers
Phoenix is not an abstract, it is a force stated many times on panels, that is why it does not get involved with events that the abstracts find themselves in.
@LordOfAllHumans: Do you agree with my last comment and my two logics?
No I don't, because I don't believe he (something everybody is calling multiversal) is more powerful than the culminated force of creation and destruction and all psionic energy in the Marvel omniverse, and neither should you, 616 Phoenix alone has an omniversal feat. Killemall (a very good debater) didn't even come up with those arguments he used against you, he got them from a guy from KMC and they are only one half of a debate that other guy had with another debater that had just as many scans and valid points to refute what was just used against you.
@LordOfAllHumans: actually I and killiemal debated using PM But tell me do you agree with those two points I wrote.
1. ca supes is thought robot controlled by real supes. so phoenix will just go and hide somewhere in white hot room or somewhere else in any other unniverse or in any other time dimension like past or future. when supes will die his natural death then ca supes will be useless. and phoenix will come out and will be claimed winner.
2. phoenix can just go back in time and kill supes when he born. thought robot will again be useless.
@LordOfAllHumans: actually I and killiemal debated using PM But tell me do you agree with those two points I wrote.
1. ca supes is thought robot controlled by real supes. so phoenix will just go and hide somewhere in white hot room or somewhere else in any other unniverse or in any other time dimension like past or future. when supes will die his natural death then ca supes will be useless. and phoenix will come out and will be claimed winner.
2. phoenix can just go back in time and kill supes when he born. thought robot will again be useless.
1. It's believed that Superman may be immortal as far as natural death is concerned. It's a thought robot I don't see why the most powerful source of psionic energy in an omniverse need hide, she's s telepath, why can't she just find the real Supes and mind rape him?
2. She could do that, but cosmic beings are not so quick to alter events like that, stopping his birth would have dire consequences to his reality, Jean wouldn't actually risk all those lives just to avoid fighting him in the future.
There is no reason for her to be afraid of him, you can't kill the Phoenix because Death has no power over her anyway, she is truly immortal and is the life force for the present as well as all the futures that have yet to happen which is why beings like Galactus have no hope against a single host from one universe because they can tap that power without being a White Phoenix.
Trying to deconstruct/lowball her HCT feats still does not take away from what the Phoenix really is and how even the Abstracts see her as a legitimate threat to all that is and themselves.
1. It's believed that Superman may be immortal as far as natural death is concerned. It's a thought robot I don't see why the most powerful source of psionic energy in an omniverse need hide, she's s telepath, why can't she just find the real Supes and mind rape him?
Because real supes isnt in the same universe as the cosmic armor.
2. She could do that, but cosmic beings are not so quick to alter events like that, stopping his birth would have dire consequences to his reality, Jean wouldn't actually risk all those lives just to avoid fighting him in the future.
You mean take Jean to the white Hot room, whats stopping Cosmic Armor from following, or trying to crack the M'kraan crystal?
There is no reason for her to be afraid of him, you can't kill the Phoenix because Death has no power over her anyway, she is truly immortal and is the life force for the present as well as all the futures that have yet to happen which is why beings like Galactus have no hope against a single host from one universe because they can tap that power without being a White Phoenix.
The force itself has on 2 occasions said she was going to be killed unless she finds a hoast, and even phoenix cant be killed she can still be defeated.
Trying to deconstruct/lowball her HCT feats still does not take away from what the Phoenix really is and how even the Abstracts see her as a legitimate threat to all that is and themselves.
Could you provide an issue number or instance where this was stated?
Not to mention in Fear Itself a whole platheora of hyper-powered beings like Shuma Gorath, Cyttorak, Mephisto, Sattanis, Nighmare together saw Seprent as a legitimate threat, came together and b*tched and moaned on what to do next. So what does that make of Serpent, might i ask? Or Odin who was shown beating him twice in fear itself??
@Sniber said:
@LordOfAllHumans: actually I and killiemal debated using PM But tell me do you agree with those two points I wrote.
1. ca supes is thought robot controlled by real supes. so phoenix will just go and hide somewhere in white hot room or somewhere else in any other unniverse or in any other time dimension like past or future. when supes will die his natural death then ca supes will be useless. and phoenix will come out and will be claimed winner.
If Phoenix is hurt in a straight up fight, and goes into hiding thats a victory for Cosmic Armor via forfeat.
2. phoenix can just go back in time and kill supes when he born. thought robot will again be useless.
@LordOfAllHumans: Do you agree with my last comment and my two logics?
No I don't, because I don't believe he (something everybody is calling multiversal) is more powerful than the culminated force of creation and destruction and all psionic energy in the Marvel omniverse, and neither should you, 616 Phoenix alone has an omniversal feat. Killemall (a very good debater) didn't even come up with those arguments he used against you, he got them from a guy from KMC and they are only one half of a debate that other guy had with another debater that had just as many scans and valid points to refute what was just used against you.
The only argument i got for Mr. Master is White Phoenix from Here comes tomorrow, a story arc i just read yesterday, and frankly nothing he said is contradicted in the comics. It certainly looked like his argument was spot on. And no i could not find a single argument between Galactic Storm and Mr. Masters together, they seem to try and avoid each other for whatever reason, the difference being Mr. Master goes by feats, Galactic Storm was going by plain hyberbole and his own interpretation of the scan, when bios and writers commentary directly contradicts what he was saying.
@LordOfAllHumans: actually I and killiemal debated using PM But tell me do you agree with those two points I wrote.
1. ca supes is thought robot controlled by real supes. so phoenix will just go and hide somewhere in white hot room or somewhere else in any other unniverse or in any other time dimension like past or future. when supes will die his natural death then ca supes will be useless. and phoenix will come out and will be claimed winner.
2. phoenix can just go back in time and kill supes when he born. thought robot will again be useless.
You expect the bird to alternate superman's death?
I will also give you two reasons why it will not do shit on superman :-)
1. All of the monitor can time travel, that's what mandrakk motive, to prevent the existence of the DC world.
2. Quantum Superman moved normal superman in a higher dimension, that means normal superman is beyond reach of timeline.
@LordOfAllHumans: actually I and killiemal debated using PM But tell me do you agree with those two points I wrote.
1. ca supes is thought robot controlled by real supes. so phoenix will just go and hide somewhere in white hot room or somewhere else in any other unniverse or in any other time dimension like past or future. when supes will die his natural death then ca supes will be useless. and phoenix will come out and will be claimed winner.
2. phoenix can just go back in time and kill supes when he born. thought robot will again be useless.
You expect the bird to alternate superman's death?
I will also give you two reasons why it will not do shit on superman :-)
1. All of the monitor can time travel, that's what mandrakk motive, to prevent the existence of the DC world.
2. Quantum Superman moved normal superman in a higher dimension, that means normal superman is beyond reach of timeline.
anything else you would like to say?
Those monitors could have used time travel and could have killed supes IF THEY HAVE USED THEIR BRAIN. but they were underestimating supes and were overconfident
phoenix can easily do that.
By the way where is is said that normal superman is beyond reach of timeline ?
@Killemall: everything once happens for the first time. and you are not telling why she can't do so. It doesn't matter if she don't know about past of supes. she will just destroy whole universe. so supes will already be destroyed. and I think when she will arive at past, she will come to know about supes by cosmic awareness.
@Sniber: I never remember that phoenix did that thing in comics & besides she is just a germ to Thought Robot he exists beyond the whole DCU , he saw whole DC multiverse as nothing more then a broken puzzle, he was able to hold all of limbo in his finger , a limbo of DCU is bigger then a universe which phoenix was holding . The Thought robot was made to protect all existence and to adapt to any threat , he could adapt to Mandrakk who was eating the 'germ' which was essentially the DC multiverse & the story concept itself
@Killemall: everything once happens for the first time. and you are not telling why she can't do so. It doesn't matter if she don't know about past of supes. she will just destroy whole universe. so supes will already be destroyed. and I think when she will arive at past, she will come to know about supes by cosmic awareness.
Firstly, rule in comicvine says unless otherwise stated this is a fight, in character, with morals on. So even if Phoenix could just such a strategy (which i am still not convinced) you cannot use that as a means to beat Phoenix in light of she never had done so in the past.
Secondly, we are talking about Phoenix going to Superman's past, and while she is capable of time travel, even capable of touching ppl's past, she did touch and convince Cyclops to change his past decision during X-men: Here comes tomorrow (The story were white phoenix appears) i am unsure if that works for a being she has never seen, she is not going to face, and is in a different universe altogether. She has to first be able to see the cosmic armor , has to find a way to realise its Superman's mind controlling it, and it was Earth 1 superman and no other superman. Then has to somehow manage to go to Superman's past, making sure she finds Superman alone (how do we know when she pops into the past she is not going to land in one of the past where Spectre is standing right behind Superman, coz you know Spectre would eat her alive). Not very convincing argument at all, not to mention one she has never adopted fighting any opponent.
Phoenix has, never on panel destroyed a universe, unless you use an instance from What Ifs, which by the virtue of being non-canon to her story arc cannot be done so. Secondly she has to know which universe to destroy, there are 52 Universes in DC multiverse, various other connected universes as well, such as wildstrom universe and a plantheora of multiverse created by Lucifer Morningstar. And that is not including how anyone who protects Dc universe, and the simplest and most convenient answer would be The Spectre, wouldnt prevent it. There is a reason why people dont use such argument in battle thread because there are so many possibilities otherwise.
Lastly, i do not think we have ever been explained how cosmic awareness, not just of Phoenix but cosmic awareness in general, works. The only way to make a judgement would be to see how it has worked in the past, and it seem to give the wielder knowledge about his surroundings. That still doesnt answer the question how Phoenix would be able to idenfity it is Superman under the armor, it is Earth 1 Superman as opposed to other superman, and so on. I personally dont think we should focus on arguments like this but rather compare what might happen when they fight head on.
@Killemall: everything once happens for the first time. and you are not telling why she can't do so. It doesn't matter if she don't know about past of supes. she will just destroy whole universe. so supes will already be destroyed. and I think when she will arive at past, she will come to know about supes by cosmic awareness.
Firstly, rule in comicvine says unless otherwise stated this is a fight, in character, with morals on. So even if Phoenix could just such a strategy (which i am still not convinced) you cannot use that as a means to beat Phoenix in light of she never had done so in the past.
Secondly, we are talking about Phoenix going to Superman's past, and while she is capable of time travel, even capable of touching ppl's past, she did touch and convince Cyclops to change his past decision during X-men: Here comes tomorrow (The story were white phoenix appears) i am unsure if that works for a being she has never seen, she is not going to face, and is in a different universe altogether. She has to first be able to see the cosmic armor , has to find a way to realise its Superman's mind controlling it, and it was Earth 1 superman and no other superman. Then has to somehow manage to go to Superman's past, making sure she finds Superman alone (how do we know when she pops into the past she is not going to land in one of the past where Spectre is standing right behind Superman, coz you know Spectre would eat her alive). Not very convincing argument at all, not to mention one she has never adopted fighting any opponent.
Phoenix has, never on panel destroyed a universe, unless you use an instance from What Ifs, which by the virtue of being non-canon to her story arc cannot be done so. Secondly she has to know which universe to destroy, there are 52 Universes in DC multiverse, various other connected universes as well, such as wildstrom universe and a plantheora of multiverse created by Lucifer Morningstar. And that is not including how anyone who protects Dc universe, and the simplest and most convenient answer would be The Spectre, wouldnt prevent it. There is a reason why people dont use such argument in battle thread because there are so many possibilities otherwise.
Lastly, i do not think we have ever been explained how cosmic awareness, not just of Phoenix but cosmic awareness in general, works. The only way to make a judgement would be to see how it has worked in the past, and it seem to give the wielder knowledge about his surroundings. That still doesnt answer the question how Phoenix would be able to idenfity it is Superman under the armor, it is Earth 1 Superman as opposed to other superman, and so on. I personally dont think we should focus on arguments like this but rather compare what might happen when they fight head on.
@Deadgod
said:
@Sniber: I never remember that phoenix did that thing in comics & besides she is just a germ to Thought Robot he exists beyond the whole DCU , he saw whole DC multiverse as nothing more then a broken puzzle, he was able to hold all of limbo in his finger , a limbo of DCU is bigger then a universe which phoenix was holding . The Thought robot was made to protect all existence and to adapt to any threat , he could adapt to Mandrakk who was eating the 'germ' which was essentially the DC multiverse & the story concept itself
STOP WRITING THE SAME SENTENCE "she had never done that before"
Both of you guys are only foccussing on feats and ignoring theoritical concepts and refusing to believe that phoenix can travel back in time and kill supes just because she had never done that before.
so by going through you concept TOAA should be one of the weakest character in marvel because he never even destroyed a city.
and killimal, I remember odin or zeus destroying multiple galaxies as a side effect of a battle, so if he really try to destroy he can destroy universe also. and if he can do so , then why can't phoenix. and do you agree that phoenix will defeat supes when morals are off ?
STOP WRITING THE SAME SENTENCE "she had never done that before"
She has never done it before, i do not understand why saying so is incorrect given the morals are on by default.
Both of you guys are only foccussing on feats and ignoring theoritical concepts and refusing to believe that phoenix can travel back in time and kill supes just because she had never done that before.
Both power and morals, 2 judges of how a character should perform in a fight is shown by what the character has shown to have done (i.e. feats). There is a good reason why not only me, but pretty much most of comicvine user focuses on feat, this was done to prevent hypethosis as this being made.
Also you are mis-interpreting what i said. I do not question her ability to time travel, nor do i question her ability to touch someone's past, both are things Phoenix has done. What i however question is:
1. Phoenix being able to do exactly that in character.
2. Phoenix knowing who is controlling the armor without any prior knoweledge.
3. Phoenix being able to travel back into the past without bumping into any major threat to her in the past, like a person who has been a member of JLA for a very short time, The Spectre.
so by going through you concept TOAA should be one of the weakest character in marvel because he never even destroyed a city.
Ok i dont understand are you saying TOAA doesnt have feats? Is that what you are trying to imply? Because its very untrue. Just to name a few:
1. TOAA has been stated to have created all the Abstracts , with Living Tribunal included.
2. TOAA's portion of powers was used to completely nullify the infinity gauntlet , a weapon capable of doing multiversal damage.
3. Thanos tapping into a portion of TOAA powers, destroyed and recreated a universe, out of absolutely nothing, and was able to resurrect abstracts alongside including the Living Tribunal, who he had killed in the series because he lost control of his anger.
4. Living Tribunal has on panel, in bio, everwhere explained himself as TOAA's inferior, who has feats on megaversal level, being capable of holding 2 eternities (616 and 1610) on each of his hands, or being above 2 beings who are multiversal.
Also you are comparing TOAA, a being who has never till date fought anyone, so while its hard to judge his morals, but there are plenty of instance that shows his power.
and killimal, I remember odin or zeus destroying multiple galaxies as a side effect of a battle, so if he really try to destroy he can destroy universe also. and if he can do so , then why can't phoenix. and do you agree that phoenix will defeat supes when morals are off ?
Its Killemall (as in Kill -em - all, or Kill them all) as opposed to Killimal btw, not that it matters. Just saying , and the reason i kept that name is because its the name of my favorite album by Metallica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_'Em_All)
Now then, Odin has done so twice, once in fight with Infinity, once in his fight with Seth, so yeah can destroy a galaxy, i dont see how that can be used to show he can destroy a universe though. In science, as well as comics, a universe has been explained as having infinite Galaxies, so just because one can destroy a galaxy, destroy multiple galaxy, does not automatically state he could do so. But to make sure it doesnt sound like i am hiding something, the most recent Thor story that was completely i.e. Thor: Everything Burns, about a month or two ago, kind of showed both Odin and his villian surtur at the very least universal in power level, which contradicts everything we have seen thus far. Not sure if this is a boost to their power level or Matt Fraction, the writer of the same arc had too much weed to smoke :p .
And yes i would give Phoenix, morals off a lot better Odds of beating Superman, or any other character that Phoenix gets pitted against.
@Killemall: Sorry i seemed to have missed something. Is there a reason why we are comparing Odin's power level and what he can do (Zeus has never busted galaxies in a fight thus far) translate to what Phoenix can do??? They are 2 different character with no connection between them whatsoever, has different power source, has different abilities, why or how are you comparing their feats? Seems kind of weird to be honest, unless i am missing something.
@Sniber: here is the picture of monitor freezing the time, so that superman's existence will not alter.
Anything that Phoenix will do is futile/useless/stupid/dumb/pathetic/germ alike/weak
Phoenix will not able to alternate superman's death because the 4th dimension is already paralyzed.
I hope you know that 4th dimension means time
That's very unfair. Monitors should not be allowed to do anything in phoenix vs supes battles.anything they did in past in favour of supes or if they give any power to supes that should not be considered in a fair fight.
In a fair battle supes will not get monitor's help hence phoenix wins
I still want know what keeps her from simply finding the mind of the Superman that is running the robot and shutting it off? She exists beyond all space and time in the nexus of all realities, seems to me like she can find him if she wanted to.
@matmatxm8: So supey became ca supey only because of monitors powers and there is no cotribution of his own powers? If this is true then its a fight same as (all monitors who helped supey + supey) vs phoenix. Its already unfair from the begning. If I would have knew that I would not have commented in this unfair battle thread.
and about your sentence "Superman has the awareness of the cosmos, he can track down wherever that puny bird hides." this is straight away wrong because if phoenix goes in other dimension or if she goes in past supey can not follow him because supes can't go in past.
so there is no way that this stupid idiot crapy guy who wear underwear over pants can ever harm WHITE PHOENIX.
@matmatxm8: So supey became ca supey only because of monitors powers and there is no cotribution of his own powers? If this is true then its a fight same as (all monitors who helped supey + supey) vs phoenix. Its already unfair from the begning. If I would have knew that I would not have commented in this unfair battle thread.
and about your sentence "Superman has the awareness of the cosmos, he can track down wherever that puny bird hides." this is straight away wrong because if phoenix goes in other dimension or if she goes in past supey can not follow him because supes can't go in past.
so there is no way that this stupid idiot crapy guy who wear underwear over pants can ever harm WHITE PHOENIX.
You're just mad because everything that Phoenix will do, superman does it better.
So what if superman got all of his powers from all of the monitors around the DC universe, what are ye going to do about it?
and there is nothing that Phoenix will be doing about it since superman got beyond the reach of the normal timeline.
Phoenix will not be going to track supes down in the past because supes was moved in a higher dimension.
Once that Superman wears the cosmic armor, he doesn't exist in normal timeline anymore.
Insulting superman doesn't make you win this argument. It's futile and stupid and don't forget pathetic.
I don't care if superman wears his underwear over his pajamas. Superman is just simply superior.
Superman with underwear over his pajama = Superior
White Crown of the Puny Bird = inferior
so here is a normal superman capable of travelling back in time.
now if you're jealous of the red underwear then I would give you one
@matmatxm8: So now you are taking movies in consideration, fine.
Then you and you supe lost by default because in movie "X MEN THE LAST STAND" jean grey even without phoenix powers is reffered as GODDESS by magneto and it was said that she can do ANYTHING SHE WANTS. a mutent who had powers to sense every kind of powers said "she is more powerful than anything I ever felt". she have powers to stop anything or anyone else to use their powers. if you want I can post you link for that movie.
SO according to movies jean grey is capable of doing ANYTHING SHE WANTS. nothing in dc omniverse can defeat her. not even presence.
and above all is only jean grey's powers. if she unites with phoenix, then she goes on level of "Thanos with HOTU" or "TOAA"
SO GO AHEAD AND TAKE YOUR UNDERWEAR FOR YOURSELF AND YOU LITTLE SUPPU.
You are, of course, assuming Phoenix is a 3rd Dimensional being...which is preposterous. Goblin and Phoenix Force are primal forces, akin to the likes of the abstracts to be completely honest. Which are 16th Dimensional Beings. So yeah....there's that. Which means they function beyond the 10th dimension which is beyond the multiverse, which is beyond the laws of time and space...
You are, of course, assuming Phoenix is a 3rd Dimensional being...which is preposterous. Goblin and Phoenix Force are primal forces, akin to the likes of the abstracts to be completely honest. Which are 16th Dimensional Beings. So yeah....there's that. Which means they function beyond the 10th dimension which is beyond the multiverse, which is beyond the laws of time and space...
You are, of course, assuming Phoenix is a 3rd Dimensional being...which is preposterous. Goblin and Phoenix Force are primal forces, akin to the likes of the abstracts to be completely honest. Which are 16th Dimensional Beings. So yeah....there's that. Which means they function beyond the 10th dimension which is beyond the multiverse, which is beyond the laws of time and space...
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
what can you say about sniber's statement?
he said that "phoenix is in the level of TOAA.".
thanks for reading
Floopay!!!
wait!! what??!!
I'm not Floopay
thanks for reading!!!
Matmatxm8!!!
That's ridiculous. The Living Tribunal stated once long long ago that he viewed the Phoenix itself as his equal. However, it is more commonly accepted that the Phoenix would be more akin to the likes of the Abstracts. That is, nearly all-powerful, but not quite nigh-omnipotent.
That being said, White Phoenix of the Crown, though the most powerful version of the Phoenix while inhabiting it's avatar, is not as powerful as the actual Phoenix Force itself. However, she was still clearly a multi-versal level being and far beyond 4th dimensional, as she was able shift, remove, and repair time/space itself on a universal scale with very little use of her power.
I gotta go with White Phoenix of the Crown, she is somewhere between Elder God and Abstract IIRC.
That's ridiculous. The Living Tribunal stated once long long ago that he viewed the Phoenix itself as his equal. However, it is more commonly accepted that the Phoenix would be more akin to the likes of the Abstracts. That is, nearly all-powerful, but not quite nigh-omnipotent.
That being said, White Phoenix of the Crown, though the most powerful version of the Phoenix while inhabiting it's avatar, is not as powerful as the actual Phoenix Force itself. However, she was still clearly a multi-versal level being and far beyond 4th dimensional, as she was able shift, remove, and repair time/space itself on a universal scale with very little use of her power.
I gotta go with White Phoenix of the Crown, she is somewhere between Elder God and Abstract IIRC.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
When?
I am quite sure Living Tribunal has never said anything like that. The only time LT met Phoenix is as below:
Also based on what is White Phoenix a multiversal being when her best feat is still below universal level? Hyperboles?
Most of what you are basing your assumption are generally hyperboles without much of a concrete feats. Phoenix hasnt really shown to do anything about a universal level, not sure why people over-estimate her abilities or what happened during HCT
I find WPOTC is never really judged correctly. Some people way over-estimate it, some people way underestimate it.
However, to be able to alter a universe in the palm of your hand, or to alter the fabric of time and space with little to no effort is not universal. To be able to do universal level feats without any signs of strain or effort is well above universal. The only thing she was having problems with was figuring out how to do it IIRC, she was pretty much doing everything casually and just sort of thinking it over.
The Phoenix Force has always been left to pure speculation as to it's full power level. On the one hand, we have Rachel Summers beating Galactus without much effort (well, until he talks her out of fighting him). Then we have Eternity (?) telling Galactus that devouring the Phoenix would mean destroying life, which would leave him alone for all eternity. Then we have the Goblin Force devouring the Phoenix Force, and then the Goblin Force being defeated by Celestials.
But then again the same can be said for Abstracts, Demon Forces, and Cosmic Entities. However, regardless of what has been stated, I would say WPOTC is easily multiversal, for the reasons stated earlier. Honestly, Phoenix Force isn't one of my favorites,and I like Jean Grey, and Rachel Summers even less, but I'd side with WPOTC here.
Log in to comment