Cosmic Armor Superman vs. Pre-retcon Beyonder

@etriel: I even made the argument in the hadou gods vs grace thread that infinity only exists in concept and therefore is quantifiable after fiction standards (So that you don't think that kind of argument is inspired from you if I use it in the future. Just wanted to point that out). I just wanted to say that I try to make my own view points now.

@theoneabovelife: I literally stopped following the thread since I don't bknow much about the characters to begin with. But yeah statements for me are as important as feats depending on who is saying what.

What type of statement and feats on panel would sway you into favoring the Cosmic Armor 100% on this debate?

@michaeljulius: I've already chosen CAS as the winner and even chose an argument made for CAS as the best answer. But the debate hasn't ended apparently.

@joshtaku: Yes, I know. I was just curious what statements, in your opinion, would be the absolute icing on the cake to sway you in any given topic. Meaning, what would the author have to say to sway you into supporting a character, what feats or comic panel statement texts would be required to sway you into firm belief into any given subject.

Example: If the debate were about Spiderman's strength, would an author statement of exactly how powerful he was be what you would need to firmly believe his strength factor? And as for comic text statements, what would you need to see to believe Spiderman has X amount of physical strength. Basically, I am just trying to see what statements and types of direct evidences you would need to believe something about any debate.

@michaeljulius: ahh I see. Well for statements, I will use wolverine as an example. If a statement was made that wolverine can split a continent apart, then that statement would have to come from a character that knows what they're talking about. Like let's say a watcher or galactus or just someone who has the authority and knowledge/skills to actually make that claim.

When feats contradict a statement, I would first see who made the statement in the first place and if the stature of the one who made the statement is high enough, then I'd side with the statement. If not, then the feats would outvalue the statement.

Author statements for me are an absolute unless there are too many inconsistencies with what he wants to say and what he shows the character actually doing. Like if the author were to say that spiderman has a lifting strength of 100 tons but continously shows him struggling to lift small cars, then that negates the author's statement.

@joshtaku: Thanks for that. We share the same values on this subject.

Neither Eternity nor Infinity are more powerful than the power of a Multiverse, THEY ARE the Multiverse and their best Multiversal feats are either affecting entities comparable to themselves, (who are also literally called Multiverses) or recreating themselves. And it is most consistent, with Eternity and Infinity even being described as the cornerstones of Creation (making up its system) and embodying the concept of Space-Time.

The best "statement" of them transacting a Multiverse from what I know, (and correct if I am wrong) but it is one that wanked even Cosmic Cubes to hell in an outlandish means.

Round 1: CAS

Round 2: CAS

Round 3: CAS and Mxy

@etriel: I never said they were more powerful than the Multiverse. I just said they function outside the Multiverse.

For those saying this thread was debunked :

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/final-crisis-explained-2045835/

I really want to see a systematic debunk thread because I couldn't find even one hint of any debunk anywhere.

@michaeljulius: people deny that scan constantly

Cosmic Armor Superman low diff.

The One Above All was always more powerful than The Beyonder. Both of them were Retconned and sent to the Marvel equivalent of DC's Limbo. There, they will remain as under the control of the Meta Marvel Comic authors.

This is what DC's Retcon looks like as a concept to the Cosmic Armor. Everyone, everything ever retconned in Vertigo/DC and Marvel is stored inside of Limbo. The opposition never had a valid argument and never will.

Find it funny that people say that physics do not exist in the marvels, when they reffer to scientific concepts and physics thousand times for their multiverse. LOL.

This bothers me a lot. But, what bothers me more? That there are some users who can read the author call a character God, a sentient comic book page that DC is printed on and still think The Beyonder would beat it.

@michaeljulius: Well, the term ''god'' is pretty relative in fiction. TR wins, because he has better feats. It's simple as that.

Absolutely. Just never ceases to amaze me there are really some individuals who don't care the comic book it sentient and doesn't like the drawings and text on it, who firmly believe the story inside the comic will defeat the physical comic page itself that is sentient. The psychology and favoritism there is staggeringly incredibly interesting to me.

@zgtfreak: No it doesn't why was liquid flowing out, why no dreams? Why was metal showing underneath? There is literally no other reason then he got damaged by mere brute force. Beyonder godslaughterroflstomps.

2 things I learned about the Vine in my short time here.

1. They overrate Cosmic Armor Superman.

2. They underrate Pre Retcon Beyonder.

I see older threads that don't apply to this, so it seems like this is a new thing.

Pre Retcon Beyonder, is one of the most broken characters in the history of fiction, so much to the point that even if you believe the Cosmic Armor Superman hype and multiply that power times ten, it still would barely do anything to the Beyonder. Pre Retcon Beyonder stomps Cosmic Armor Superman.

And for people asking for The Beyonder multiversal feats, Dr. Doom with The Beyonder's power said he could have destroyed all of reality, and The Beyonder also shrugged off an attack from Molecule Man that could have destroyed several billion dimensions.

TR stomps.

CAS

Beyonder wins.

Beyonder by feats.

Beyonder all rounds.

@underfire47: You not understanding something doesnt make it not true. Ill try to explain this in laymans terms:

The Marvel Multiverse is whats known as a Simple Multiverse, aka an Infinite Multiverse. It consists of an Infinite (1d) amount of Universes (4d). Making it a 5-Dimensional Universe. The Beyonder is Billions of times more powerful than this. Since Infinite > Billions, he is simply Infinite Multiversal, just to a greater degree than the Marvel Multiverse. 5D Beyonder.

DC Cosmology is different. There are multiple layers, each I finitely greater than the last. As of New 52, There are the 52 Universes, as part of a lesser “multiverse” called the Orrey of Worlds (4d). Contained by the Speed Force Wall, which seperates it from the Sphere of Gods (1d). Then, containing the Sphere of Gods is the Monitor Sphere (1d), all of which is contained by the Source Wall from the Overvoid. If you dont include the Overvoid, the DC Multiverse is 6-Dimensional. This is why 5D Imps are wacky powerful in the Orrey of Worlds, but are fodder to characters like Lucifer and the Monitors, who are top dogs in the Sphere of Gods.

CAS lands somewhere between the Monitor Sphere and the Overvoid, based on interpretation. He is solidly above the Sphere of Gods and any Monitor, the only exception being Mandrakk who was so powerful because he was being amped by the Bleed, Plus was an aspect of the Prime-Monitor.

Thus, CAS is literally cosmological tiers above Beyonder. Even if the Beyonder was 999 Billion times more powerful than the Marvel Multiverse, it wouldnt matter. No finite amount of multiplications of his power can hope to match a being who is beyond the concepts of those Dimensions.

It would be like a Picture trying to defeat Me. It is 2d and I am 3d. It can hardly effect me.

Thing solos

@redshift_bacon: I am always impressed with the nonsense you guys are able to spin over a virtually fealtess one-off character who gets hurt by the heat of 10 billion Suns and is currently nothing more than a pile of scrap metal. Like i could see myself getting to this point after about at least half a dozen hammer blows to the head.

@underfire47: half dozen is not enough if it were given at normal speed. you have to blowed to head at speed of light to be this smart

There is also limbo but other then that. +1

Probably would have to hit at the speed of "beyond physics" to achieve it tbh. There are specific requirements for joining every vitamin B deficient cult.

@underfire47: yeah

"There are specific requirements for joining every vitamin B deficient cult"

This is coming from the person who spends most of his time making low effort comments while having accumulated more forum post than me, most which are devoted to low balling anything against Marvel.

lol next level self projection i'm sensing.

No this is coming from a person that spends more time debating a wide range of characters than dedicating his sole existence on a forum to a small niche of a subset of a specific set of characters.

"Lowballing anything against Marvel" - literally just spent arguing in another thread how 3 DC characters stomp 3 Marvel characters lol.

Next level self projection indeed, with no hint of self awareness. Every category i was accused of he literally fails on, amazing.

oh god why has this resurfaced

It's ComicVine. No one believes their wrong

Why....

Which implies what? You find a wider range of characters enjoyable to debate on this forum? Good for you. Also you made 4 comments in that other thread, half which were just "I don't know much about this character." I wouldn't really call that defending. However I guess I should congratulate you for not stating (insert marvel character) wins in a thread when you don't know the result or the opposing characters. It's the first steps that counts the most anyway.

It implies i am not a one-trick pony that ties myself to single tiny sphere of characters that aren't even relevant or are likely to be brought up anymore. You talking about thread with Hulk, Thor, Ironman vs Superman, WW and Kyle? Because the only character i said i don't know much about is the specific suit of Ironman, even then i still went with DC team STOMPING Marvel team. Thanks you i could bring you literally dozens of other threads where i defended DC characters winning without problem, but i will wait for the first thread where you pick a Marvel character over DC, don't worry take your time.

Draw

I’m not a one trick pony though. I just only debate Multiversal characters here. I’m more activate in a variety of other threads on WhoWouldWin because less powerful character threads are more fun over there. Here I only like to debate higher tier characters because users are more knowledgeable and it’s more enjoyable... lol you’re taking this way to seriously. You want your brownie point for not saying (insert marvel character wins)? Sure you can have it. Good work buddy.

WhoWouldWin... oh dear god lol.

What’s wrong with WhoWouldWin? It’s a much better environment than here...

Surprisingly it is. Any disagreements here after a few posts leads to claims of wanking

@iknowwhoyouare: Agreed. And I feel like with lower level power threads, there is so many more aspects of a battle to analyze that there would be constant disputes made over the most petty shit. Ignoring context being probably the biggest one. And I can only image how bad that gets with people here.

Round 1: CAS vs. Pre-retcon beyonder 1 on 1 cas wins

Round 2: CAS VS PR Beyonder with Living Tribunal beyonder wins

Round 3: CAS and Myx vs PR Beyonder and Living Tribunal cas wins

cas 2/3