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#1 Edited by zgtfreak (1395 posts) - - Show Bio
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I made this because I hear people saying CaS is multi-universal, infinite multiversal, megaversal, or higher and is also an "anti-hax machine." Some clarification on where he stops (if at all) would be nice.

Rules:

No VS Battles logic

No meta logic.

Characters abilities are taken into account as well against CaS, not just raw power.

Round 1: Infinite Multiversal

Goddess Madoka Kaname and Demon Homura Akemi (Madoka Magica)

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Round 2: 90-D Megaversal

Reinhard Heydrich and Mercurius (Dies Irae)

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Infinite-D and Beyond

Round 3: Willard H. Wright and Lion Ushiromiya (Umineko/When They Cry)

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Last round I will call bonus round since the last team is hard to place due to their insane abilities being the best here, despite being weaker than round 2 and 3 in raw power.

Bonus Round: 8-D Megaversal Loaded With Broken Abilities

Genesis Gilgamesh and Moon Cell Hakuno Kishinami (Fate/Extra CCC)

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@sungsam@etriel < Your guys' input on CaS's exact power level would be appreciated (though anyone is more than welcome to chime in).

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#2 Edited by Sungsam (2925 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem with Dimensional Tiering as casual as VSBattles is that every idiotic writer uses these fancy Quantum terminologies without actually paying attention not only to the ACTUAL theory, but even the Pseudo-Science.

Dimensional tiering gets quirky because some writers say that ""Oh, my Verse is 10 Dimensional but there's only Infinite Universes and no Megaverse"" which is very very stupid. Something along those lines. This is something VSBattles seems too stupid to understand. They like to ignore these problems as part of their methods because they admit it to their self convenience. But here, we do things differently.

That said, Morrison outright stated his Multiverse (which the Monitor Sphere is on top of) is based on Brane Cosmology and String Theory, which is just 10+1 Dimensional in its fundamental forms.

However, when you look at his map, there's only like what? FIVE levels of existence above Universe level. The Bleed Space on its own is a Megaverse of Infinite Multiverses and is 6-Dimensional by definition. Because when you analyze Morrison's Multiverse, it's really just a Level 9 Dimensional Multiverse on its own.

We even see that the difference in size between Limbo Dimension and the Monitor Sphere is not infinite. While the Monitor Sphere is greater than Limbo, the difference between them is still finite and not infinite. Not like in Umineko, the difference between dimensions is infinite. Limbo fits in TR Supe's hand, but it's not infinitesimal.

I can see TR Superman defeating CCC Gilgamesh narrowly if not just stalemating because although he is 9-Dimensional by my analysis, the difference between the dimensions in the currently AWFUL Morrison Cosmology doesn't seem to be infinite to each other. Or at least not all the levels are.

Oh, and Madoka is literally fodder level to Monitors. But he gets crushed in EVERY SINGLE OTHER ROUND.

TR Supes clears first round, gets crushed the rest.

Reinhard throws his spear. Umineko Mid Tiers won't even notice TR Supes.

Likely nominally wins or stalemates bonus round. Actually to hell with that, CCC Gil might win because the dimension difference between the levels of Morrisonid DC isn't clear. This is the special time where I say DC's 9D is inferior to Nasuverse 8D.

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#3 Edited by zgtfreak (1395 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Thanks for the info on his power level.

The main reason I put Gilgamesh here is because I've heard people call CaS a complete anti-hax machine (don't know if this is true or not), so I added Gilgamesh since his abilities can and have effected and one shotted people stronger than him to the point I think he could clear rounds 2 and 3, but I only put him as a bonus round since I can understand people calling that a NLF maybe. I was curious if CaS is really this god-tier immune to everything guy like people claim, so I decided to add Gil into the mix as a test to his so called complete immunities.

I also have a 9-D Gilgamesh theory, but not too sure on it overall, as it is merely a theory without concrete proof.

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#4 Edited by Mee09 (5665 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by ovy7 (2652 posts) - - Show Bio

Fully agree woth what Sungsam said. CAS stomps R1 and get stomped the rest.

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#6 Posted by phillip33 (3925 posts) - - Show Bio

No ideas who any of the characters in the gauntlet are, but I’m pretty sure CAS isn’t even on the level of Eternity.

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#7 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Ask a very, very simple question. Who is more meta. Sungsam, you have admitted that The Empty Hand is the meta combined collective consciousness and representation of all comic book readers and you accept Grants authority on the subject. So why do you not accept Grants authority and DC's authority that CAS and Mandrakk are the Editors?

Here is a quote from you on Empty hand vs Oblivion seen here and the Empty Hand would win based on author statements. Why are you contradicting yourself?

"If these two things are true, as I am still skeptical, then Empty Hand is Oblivion's counterpart in DC in Multiversal monstrosity. Oblivion got some fucking shit coming to him if this is true, but I'm still skeptical since Empty Hand is still impossible to gauge. But I just want to lay out most liberal estimations of his power just for the sake of argument. Yes, it is impossible to gauge Empty Hand at the moment. He could be a dimensioned low multiversal being, but he could also just as well be a being that either nearly rivals, rivals or surpasses Oblivion by either small or large magins. I have five different possible, as of now, equally plausible to me ratings for Empty Hand that all differ in outcome against Oblivion. Does this scan's context imply Multiversal destruction? Would anyone care? There is also the quote I got from other forum debaters of Grant Morrison talking about Empty Hand which is the only basis for him being the empty hand of the reader that puts the comic down."The real big bad guy at the end - he looks like the Ultra Comics character, but he's also the reader. The empty hand of the reader when he puts the comic down and everything ends. But like the bad guy, he can also come back in full force and say, "You'll meet me again."- Grant Morrison on the Empty Hand

The Empty Hand, who in turn isn't on CAS's level at all. You know that. He was from Multiverse 2. He was Created by another narrative writer and became Meta. The Forging Monitor probably made him, or something else. He ate his Multiverse or origin. He is not originally from exterior control.

Moreover. The Writer. Tells his own creation that its not possible for him to get to the the real world. The Writer, whom you yourself have admitted to be the most meta character there is in DC, a few times as I've seen...

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...is debunked and overriden, because DC comics has already stated that Mandrakk and CAS are the DC comics editors in the same meta sense. DC and CBR directly confirmed approval on this to be the case. Mandrakk and CAS are the editors.

Beyond that, Limbo holds all retcon and continuity that is deleted by the authors of DC Comics. Everything and every meta space, every lore, every story there ever was and ever written. That includes the truly infinite past Dimensionalities of DC comics, of Vertigo, and of Elseworlds too. All of that space, all that dimensional space appears as a flat plane of existence to the cosmic armor.

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Even further, just one of many examples, Limbo the place of continuity shifts, holds shards of the Rock of Eternity from Days of Vengeance and Infinite Crisis. That entire lore space is 1D to Cosmic Armor. Morrison also confirmed that too.

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What are your thoughts on this? I have to ask you. The Editor, CAS and Mandrakk, who approve and deny the narratives of the Writer. Confirmed by DC comics and CBR.

So who on that chain is the highest tier? The one who stated they are masters of the Monitor Mind. Right? Or do statements of the author and statements in comic and logic mean nothing when it comes to anything Final Crisis related? Nobody on this list has author statements and meta feats like CAS.

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Your thoughts appreciated.

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"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

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#8 Posted by Soratoumiga (2147 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 2.

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#9 Posted by Supermanthor (16226 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

"Darkseid might be the Presence from Final Crisis." - Soratoumiga 2/11/2019

"I've never read Final Crisis or the Multiversity trash garbage issues before." - Soratoumiga 2/11/2019

Lol, indeed. Supermanthor. CAS Edits the rest of the gauntlet as he pleases, just like always.

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

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#11 Edited by Sungsam (2925 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu:

Well, glad you asked a question (an interesting one) that totally avoids any form of conflict with your current reincarnation.

I'll explain your question to my perspective at the time (which has changed obviously).

Metafictional feats is technically sometimes a form of reality warping and hax to me. And Higher-Dimensional transcendence. Mxyzptlk for example sees the physical Multiverse as like Comic Book panels, though he is a 5-Dimensional Imp.

This is because if you are of a higher dimension than something below you, you are typically infinitely more powerful. Morrison followed this rule as you can see and so many writers from Manga, Anime and Novels follow this rule of Dimensional tiering hierarchy.

Hell, the medium changes depending on fiction. But you get the idea.

Different fictions change how dimensional hierarchy is represented. Sometimes, if I am of a higher level of existence than you. I can see you as a chess piece on a chess board (like Umineko does it) like how Featherine is infinitely more powerful than Bernkastel and basically sees her as just a chess piece on a board. Or I see you as a character on a comic book to my perspective showing how higher dimensionality stuff I am (like how Morrison and DC did it) like Mxy holding Comic panels that represented moments of Space Time from a Higher level of dimension to see the perspective that normal humans cannot comprehend. I see no difference in quality between the two though. Just representation.

Oblivion sees the Marvel Multiverse and all of Time and Space as fictional to him and meaningless. Empty Hand on the other hand saw DC's Multiverse as fictional to him because he reads the Multiverse like a book. To both of these gentle cosmics, they both see the Multiverse of something of unimportance for some reason. Or at least something that is inconsequential to their existence.

That is why I compared Oblivion and Empty Hand. Does that mean Oblivion was Metafictional to me at the time? No. But their powers I saw as equivalent to one another. You will notice that I do not think that Metafiction = Autowin like you do.

However, there are different levels of being Metafictional. If you recall the Re: Creators Anime. Altair literally saved her own writer from suicide and created a Universe where she writes her own writer writing her.

It'd be like if Morrison wanted to commit suicide, and Mandrakk saved him inside a comic.

The thing about Altair though is that although she has stupid meta feats. Her best feat using that power was just creating a Universe.

Nobody would say that just because Altair is Meta, that she would defeat Living Tribunal who you agree is Multiversal. Unless you are LPercepts who literally argued that Meta-Universe level characters would beat someone like Beyonder and that's ridiculous. And that guy was ridiculed by me for such a thing.

In turn, if you recall that reply, I stated that there are different levels to interpret and estimate how powerful Empty Hand would be. This is because that although he sees DC as nothing as Oblivion sees Marvel's Space Time as nothing. DC's Multiverse however is very small when you compared to Marvel.

So while I do still see Empty Hand as meta at the time. My understanding of Meta is not the same as yours.

You can be metafictional, that doesn't mean you will win just any fight against non-metafictional characters. You need feats to back it up at that scale.

At least nowadays. Marvel's Multiverse expands infinitely and instantly. There are infinite universes basically creating new possibilities every moment. This is a Quantum Multiverse.

I'm not arguing against your view. I'm just explaining... how I viewed it.

Because as you know, though I saw Empty Hand as Metafictional, I imply there at the same time there are different levels of power to interpret how strong Empty Hand is.

His best feat was destroying Multiverse-2. A Multiverse of unknown number of Universes. At best highballing it to me, I saw him as equal to Oblivion.

My views of Oblivion, Meta and Empty Hand are different then to now though. Debating evolution. You will notice I sometimes see Lucifer as just Multi-Universal now.

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#12 Posted by rarelandpupper (244 posts) - - Show Bio

CAS gets blown out after round 1.

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#13 Edited by Soratoumiga (2147 posts) - - Show Bio

"Mandrakk > Presence" - Wanker no one cares about who's also a meme on ComicVine January 2019

OT: CAS gets blinked at 2 and above.

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#14 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

@daxnovu:

Well, glad you asked a question (an interesting one) that totally avoids any form of conflict with your current reincarnation.

- Sigh.

Metafictional feats is technically sometimes a form of reality warping. And Higher-Dimensional transcendence. Mxyzptlk for example sees the physical Multiverse as like Comic Book panels, though he is a 5-Dimensional Imp.

-I think there is a huge discrepancy in defining terminology. If they leave the comic and enter a metaconceptual space, reality warping is no longer viable. It isn't a form of reality warping, it is meta. Two narratives battling each other are not two reality warpers fighting each other with physics.

This is because if you are of a higher dimension than something below you, you are typically infinitely more powerful. Morrison followed this rule as you can see and so many writers from Manga, Anime and Novels follow this rule of Dimensional tiering hierarchy.

- I agree with this, which is why he showed Limbo housing every single dimension in DC ever to exist, even things lost to retcon as a 1D flat plane of existence to the thought robot and Nil space.

Oblivion sees the Marvel Multiverse and all of Time and Space as fictional to him. Empty Hand on the other hand saw DC's Multiverse as fictional to him because he reads the Multiverse like a book. To both of these gentle cosmics, they both see the Multiverse of something of unimportance for some reason. Or at least something that is inconsequential to their existence.

- Agreed. However, one of them as per your own words was a meta character and the other is not. Oblivion sees it as fiction, you said that you agreed or may have agreed with Grants statements that Empty Hand is the combined collective minds of all comic readers. Oblivion inside of Marvels multiverse is not the same. He is just a cosmic being that resides as the outter box for Eternity. He is not meta. Empty Hand actually is.

That is why I compared Oblivion and Empty Hand.

- Yes, but again, you said one of them is meta and one isnt, but still compared them. Your comparison was in their view on things, not their power sets. Their power sets are vastly different. One is the collective minds of readers, the other like many other characters in fiction knows someone is reading and watching him (us) which isnt at all impressive.

However, there are different levels of being Metafictional. If you recall the Re: Creators Anime. Altair literally saved her own writer from suicide and created a Universe where she writes her own writer writing her.

- This is exactly the same thing as Grant Morrisons Hyperloop explanation. The Author isn't the creator. The Creator's creation is. The Author wrote the creator, who created the author. We are a fiction to Gods. Who in turn wrote us. And those Gods were written by us in some Multiverses. Its a loop. And Grant's worlds have the same feats (cas) for example and the Writer.

It'd be like if Morrison wanted to commit suicide, and Mandrakk saved him inside a comic.

-Consider that DC comics stated that Mandrakk is the editor of the meta DC comics...if Mandrakk wanted to, he should as per the story be able to do so and go save and talk to the "real world analogue" of Grant in the Orrery, who resides on Earth 33. That isn't a special feat either, considering Monitors sent Nix there and many of the events of the Ultracomics were the thoughts processing around him from his apartment in Earth 33.

Nobody would say that just because Altair is Meta, that she would defeat Living Tribunal who you agree is Multiversal. Unless you are LPercepts who literally argued that Meta-Universe level characters would beat someone like Beyonder and that's ridiculous.

- No. I am not arguing that. I am also not going to take the Soratougmia route and insist that the Presence is Darkseid and that Darkseid always commanded the Presence and the Raidant. And that Darkseid > Lucifer and Michael (no really, he said that and he was a serious)

In turn, if you recall that reply, I stated that there are different levels to interpret and estimate how powerful Empty Hand would be. This is because that although he sees DC as nothing as Oblivion sees Marvel's Space Time as nothing. DC's Multiverse however is very small when you compared to Marvel.

- I agree. Except I see nothing to denote that Oblivion is meta. I see nothing to say that he is anything exterior of the comic itself. Him speaking to us is nothing special. Comic characters monologue to readers all the time and that isn't a grandious feat at all. What is? When the comic states and showcases vsbattle boards and internet comments about how meta Empty hand and Gentry are right inside their own comic book and that they are the collective consciousness of all comic readers combined into one character. That meta obliterates Oblivion all day long.

So while I do still see Empty Hand as meta at the time. My understanding of Meta is not the same as yours.

- I agree with that and I am fine with it. I'm merely asking what your reasoning was and finally I have answers. And I am thankful for it. You didn't give me a "STOMP" and nothing else. So, I really appreciate that and I won't push further. So long as I have something to understand in your brain, I dont feel the need to push or investigate more into your reasoning and I am just fine moving past it. You and I have differentials in opinions on what Meta constitutes. And it is just that simple.

You can be metafictional, that doesn't mean you will win just any fight against non-metafictional characters. You need feats to back it up at that scale.

- Agreed.

At least nowadays. Marvel's Multiverse expands infinitely and instantly. There are infinite universes basically creating new possibilities every moment. This is a Quantum Multiverse.

- Also agreed. As mentioned, the dimensional argument breaks down when you have neigh infinite-D inside of Limbo and the Orrery appear as a flat plane 1D experience to a purely conceptual being made entirely of thought. There are no physics in limbo. They said it. So to wrap ones head about the idea that dimensionality stops at the end of the multiverse and they down converted all the heroes to get to limbo, and then ultraman and superman were converted yet further to get to Nil into the Cosmic Armor...and at that point there were entirely made of Thought and nothing more because Physics and Dimensions and reality warping held no meaning what so ever (literally stated 4 or 5 times)...then you see that thing somehow anchor downward into a 1D "looking" thing in a linear movement window where it has no time to begin with...

When you argue physics or dimensions at all in Nil, that is where we all lose, because the comic says its far past the understanding of such. Which is what I've been trying to get at for the last month or so.

Now considering CAS is stated to be the editor DC Comics in a meta sense of the word, that trumps all the feats and dimensions, the reality warping and so on that takes place inside the narrative. Infinite reality warping doesnt matter when you edit the story and have total authority over the publication itself, ignore the author and all the other writers and have the actual publications print authority. That is what Mandrakk and CAS are. They represent the Greed of DC executives. Monitors represented the Authors trying to Get Supermans story of heroic nature to come out and fight the Greedy bastards who own DC Comics who are editing things that Grant was having issues with) Allegory.

The undisputed fact of the matter is that CAS is the Editor and looked upon unlimited dimensions as a flat plane, and did it in a place without time or scale,"without form and meaning" is what they said in Final Crisis. Beyond that, it has a statement of "infinite adaptation" and also "able to counter any future threat".

Nothing else on this list has that. Nothing else is Meta and can dictate meta concepts. And nothing else on this list has two statements of pure, raw, 100% literal infinite power. CAS wins this.

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

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#15 Posted by Supermanthor (16226 posts) - - Show Bio

"Mandrakk > Presence" - Wanker no one cares about who's also a meme on ComicVine January 2019

OT: CAS gets blinked at 2 and above.

February

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#16 Posted by Soratoumiga (2147 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Supermanthor (16226 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: @soratoumiga: at this point leave him

you see every character has his or her fare share of wanker and lowballers

just stick to what you believe

whom you want to believe

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#18 Posted by Supermanthor (16226 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

When you come up with a big ol scan of anything at all besting the God/Presence, the Radiant and the Spectre too in big bold letters...you let me know, mates. Until then, please, continue holding hands and fully ignoring all statements from everything Morrison media related. Just cross out God here in this scan and replace it with Darkseid. Nobody will notice...also this bodes really bad for you if you think the over monitor is God. Ouch.

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"I shall consume all of your stories!"

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#20 Posted by Gaoron (8248 posts) - - Show Bio

TR gets absolutely murder stomped by any true infnite multiversal character. No need for pseudo science garbo characters.

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Any attempts at BS dimensional scaling gets debunked by this scan. "Blood of 52 universes", "Heat of ten billion suns". TR is universal/multi-universal in terms of stats at best. Him being a higher dimensional being "bigger" than Limbo shouldn't be any problem for any true infnite multiversal characters either.

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#21 Edited by Sungsam (2925 posts) - - Show Bio
@daxnovu said:

-I think there is a huge discrepancy in defining terminology. If they leave the comic and enter a metaconceptual space, reality warping is no longer viable. It isn't a form of reality warping, it is meta. Two narratives battling each other are not two reality warpers fighting each other with physics.

Leaving a Comic isn't really much interesting to me and several others at least. Skeletor travelled through Hypertime and entered Video Games, Cartoons, Real life Toys and versions of himself of other universes outside of his Comic Timeline. Mxy who is just a 5-Dimensional Imp did the same thing. Anyway, let's not even get there. You just wanted my opinion on it there right?

So let's change it up a bit. Define physics. Physics is of Time and Space right? Can we agree on this? And the very meaning and concept of Physics changes depending on writer.

Lovecraft's understanding of Physics was so different, that it's ridiculous to imply that Yog Sothoth would transcend the pseudo-physics that writers from other fictions implement in their own territory. Which is why if you notice I'm often at odds with Lovecraft debaters. Dimensions and physics in different fictions change.

And the comprehension of humans also changes depending on fiction.

I don't think you and I have the same notion of physics because although you claimed that Lucifer and Michael were not of physics, you still continue to argue that they are bound to a Timeline which is made of physics. One of the things that I wonder of why you say that.

- I agree with this, which is why he showed Limbo housing every single dimension in DC ever to exist, even things lost to retcon as a 1D flat plane of existence to the thought robot and Nil space.

Glad you understand how Dimensional Tiering really works.

Oblivion sees the Marvel Multiverse and all of Time and Space as fictional to him. Empty Hand on the other hand saw DC's Multiverse as fictional to him because he reads the Multiverse like a book. To both of these gentle cosmics, they both see the Multiverse of something of unimportance for some reason. Or at least something that is inconsequential to their existence.

That's how I saw it.

- Agreed. However, one of them as per your own words was a meta character and the other is not. Oblivion sees it as fiction, you said that you agreed or may have agreed with Grants statements that Empty Hand is the combined collective minds of all comic readers. Oblivion inside of Marvels multiverse is not the same. He is just a cosmic being that resides as the outter box for Eternity. He is not meta. Empty Hand actually is.

- Yes, but again, you said one of them is meta and one isnt, but still compared them. Your comparison was in their view on things, not their power sets. Their power sets are vastly different. One is the collective minds of readers, the other like many other characters in fiction knows someone is reading and watching him (us) which isnt at all impressive.

You're right, Oblivion is not Meta and Empty Hand was.

Their view is a result of their superiority to the Multiverse. To ALL of Time and Space itself. I saw it as intertwined back then. Don't@Me. But I still saw how they view a Multiverse as inconsequential as equivalent. That's why I compared them.

Do you know what a Kampilan is? It's a massive Filipino sword. Though it's different from a Scimitar from the Middle East. They do about the same damage. Not the same, but I saw it as equivalent.

Although Oblivion technically is probably of form, and not completely formless, he is still not of Time and Space. And even if he did have form, it would not be made of Space and Time and would be totally metaphysical form.

Because I think Oblivion is Metaphysical to the Multiverse as Empty Hand was Metafictionally uncaring of Time and Space. Different type of power sets, but equivalent potency.

Hey hey, Metaphysical is not the same as Metafictional. Metaphysical means something beyond our comprehension, like how God is beyond our comprehension according to those Jewish writers from antiquity. Mind the terminologies.

- No. I am not arguing that. I am also not going to take the Soratougmia route and insist that the Presence is Darkseid and that Darkseid always commanded the Presence and the Raidant. And that Darkseid > Lucifer and Michael (no really, he said that and he was a serious)

In that case, I might engage in a discourse with him.

@soratoumiga If what Karp is saying is true Sora, I do not agree with that.

- I agree. Except I see nothing to denote that Oblivion is meta. I see nothing to say that he is anything exterior of the comic itself.

Again, I don't think Oblivion is meta at all. I don't even think Oblivion is as strong as I used to think now. I just thought at the time since both characters don't give a damn about Time and Space. It's kind of the same to me. Again, only explaining what I thought at the time. Since you kindly asked.

To me, Oblivion not being Meta did not discount to me at the time that Oblivion and Empty Hand are each other's equals.

Nowadays, I do still think that Empty Hand is meta. But bah, I don't know how many Universes he destroyed with his Meta power.

Just having meta power, reality warping power or whatever is not relevant to me so much if you don't use it to gauge some feats with it. Again, that's how we think. At least, how I think. You know?

Him speaking to us is nothing special. Comic characters monologue to readers all the time and that isn't a grandious feat at all. What is? When the comic states and showcases vsbattle boards and internet comments about how meta Empty hand and Gentry are right inside their own comic book and that they are the collective consciousness of all comic readers combined into one character. That meta obliterates Oblivion all day long.

What more people see as a grandious feat Karp is if a character (regardless if he is Metafictional or not) is the ability to encompass or destroy or see beings who are beyond the power of Infinite Higher Spatial Dimensional Multiverses as nothing to them in level of existence.

Like Umineko's Omnipotent God. Is like this.

Like Azathoth in Extended Author add on stories of Lovecraft. Is like that. He is so overpowered, he would stomp an infinite number of Beyonders and Featherine like nothing. Since those two are literally equal in power to an Outer God.

That's what people (at least me and several debaters here, including a lot of Comicvine see as a grandious feat). Additional information is all.

- I agree with that and I am fine with it. I'm merely asking what your reasoning was and finally I have answers. And I am thankful for it. You didn't give me a "STOMP" and nothing else. So, I really appreciate that and I won't push further. So long as I have something to understand in your brain, I dont feel the need to push or investigate more into your reasoning and I am just fine moving past it. You and I have differentials in opinions on what Meta constitutes. And it is just that simple.

Yes, exactly. That's what I do with VSBattles as well. I completely understand how their tiering system works, inside and out. Doesn't mean I agree with it. You could take a day and pretend to argue exactly like we do, at least one every now and then. So you can understand even better.

- Agreed.

Because while I don't really 100% discount Meta stuff, every single person I debated with who ARGUED Metafictional powers literally tend to define how Metafiction works differently. I have my own as you can see. You have yours. That's the problem you see with Metafiction debates. People define it differently.

LPercepts for example is a guy who idiotically thinks Altair can still beat Featherine and Beyonder just because she is Metafictional. Problem is that he deleted the thread, but I still have his replies. You and I at least agree that is very stupid.

But now you understand why people on this forum sometimes get tend to be very dismissive of meta feats. Because of those things. Those issues. That is why it is rather avoided.

Because you're really not the first person on this forum I argued on Metafiction in regards to. Unless you get people to vote as to how Metafiction works, it is impossible to truly argue for really.

But yes, we do not think Morrison's Cosmology is really that impressive compared to other fictions. That is why we disregard the Meta feats. We do not think it is an autowin.

To us, it doesn't matter how meta Mandrakk or TR gets. Because Morrison's Cosmology to us, is small, and is not enough to gauge em up feats against the likes of Featherine and Co. Again, that's how we think. At least you understand.

Just like how Altair wouldn't beat up Beyonder just because she is Meta. I do not think that TR Supes would get at someone like Feathers just because he is Meta. To us, it is a valid power, but not enough. That's all.

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#22 Posted by Soratoumiga (2147 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Lol, of course not. He's blowing things out of proportion, as usual. I was merely satirically stating "Oh, damn, it could have been Darkseid." That's simply what happened.

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#23 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

The heat of 10 billion suns argument fallacy again? This is the biggest misnomer argument outside of Darkseid being the Presence.

There are no material things in Limbo, so how does heat and energy exist where there are no material things?

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How does a body of pure thought and concept house and become affect by the heat of 10 billion suns?

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How does the Nil, the Blank, the formless, the no reality, the thing past all form and understanding, the place where there is no time, no space and no reality...hold the heat of 10 billion suns?

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Wait, you just said they were fighting with reality and energy blasts? But...wait a tick. Here it says they are just narratives. Whoa...mind blown. Picture that...some guys on this forum not telling the truth.

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I need to double check...yep, he is still a hyper story.

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I should really triple check this...yep, Monitors have no reality to warp.

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So there are 6 references in Final Crisis alone that Monitors have no reality to warp. That there is no reality in Final Crisis. That time doesnt exist in Nil. That nil isnt part of the Orrery. That nil is past Limbo, a place where Grant Morrison in Meta real world Analogue places Retconned stories and characters he doesnt want in his canon.

No amount of magic and reality warping affects this thing. And the argument of 10 billion suns is a misnomer of biblical proportion. It is desperation. Nothing more. Because there is no more argument against CAS and Mandrakk.

CAS Stomps. He is the editor.

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"Come closer, Superman. Let me consume your story!"

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#24 Edited by zgtfreak (1395 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu: You are not welcome in my thread; please leave.

@gaoron Yeah, you can leave too.

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#25 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

ZGT, sure thing. But, just like you refused to stop tagging me after I politely asked you to stop, I'll continue to post here one last time. Hows that. Sound fair? I want to lay out the opposing sides arguments flat so I can better get a grasp of it. It is really hard for me.

The first argument the other side has is that a reality warper who controls only particles and physics will somehow warp the nonexistent particles and physics in a being without particles and physics. This is an flaccid argument. No level of reality warping can affect something without reality to warp.

The second argument is that characters without meta exterior of the comic book feats will warp the reality of the character outside of the comic book. The only way this works is if the character outside of the comic book has no control of reality and narrative and the fight takes place inside of a neutral zone for both characters to retain their powers. Another deflated argument.

The third is the dimensional tiering argument. 11D, 90D. 99999999D. All the D (lol) Doesn't really matter when the Presence was defeated. When the Anti Monitor destroyed near infinite numbers of the Multiverse and they were viewed as nothing by the Science Monitors. When continuities are talked about by Science Monitors. When retconned stories and continuties are literally looked at and placed in a Limbo...and all of that is a 1D flat environment to the CAS. So...all of the dimensional tiering based on feats is so far in favor of CAS that it is extremely unfair to say these other fictions bested it. A hallow argument.

The fourth is the Narrative control argument. Or authorship. Nobody on this list is said to be the meta editor of its own continuity. Not one of them. CAS is the editor of its own meta. That is the end of the debate. It is a meta tier beyond the Author. Another empty argument.

The fifth is that Darkseid was in command of the Spectre and the Radiant. And that during all of the events of the Final Crisis Revalations issue, and the events of the very end of Final Crisis, all mentions of God are in references to Darkseid. When the term God is said, it means Darkseid. This is...by far...the worst argument ever to exist on this forum. Not only is Darkseid always cited as a New God in Final Crisis and the Multiversity, but the argument here is that on a single page, just one text box uses the term God twice, and that it means two totally different characters? Seriously?

The sixth is that the heat of 10 billion suns is not a narrative trying to use the power of a narrative story to harm CAS and Superman, who has a story and who's biggest weakness outside of Krytptonite is...red sunlight. Afterwhich, 6 statements are made that no physics and reality exists where they are and that they are narratives fighting each other. But no, ignore that, they are shooting Goku energy blasts that have the energy of merely 10 billion stars worth of power. That is, without a doubt, the absolute biggest stretch of an arguement outside of Darkseid being the Presence that I've ever heard.

I've debunked literally every single aspect and every argument the opposing side has, to the point that no arguments are given anymore. Just "CAS gets stomped" or "this overrated duo gets stomped" is all that is left to state. I mean...are you guys okay with that? If you are, I am. I wont push the issue anymore. We had one guy who had a bit of a psychotic break and started copying me and my signatures.

You guys need to chill. Stop the insults. Stop the accusations. Enough already.

:\

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"Come closer, Superman. So I can consume your story!"

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#26 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

rothschild basically took all the words out of my mouth. nothing more needs to be said.

i do have reserves about round 2 though. the taikyoku makes one imeasurably more powerful than lesser numbers. not infinite. there is a different. to me. hadou gods are still just a few levels above baseline multiversal.

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#27 Edited by zgtfreak (1395 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: I believe I heard from Ovy that they were infinite with each value (could be remembering wrong though). I don't know too much about DI cosmology, so I can't say.

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#28 Edited by Supermanthor (16226 posts) - - Show Bio

2

Online
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#29 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@etriel: I believe I heard from Ovy that they were infinite with each value (could be remembering wrong though). I don't know too much about DI cosmology, so I can't say.

the cosmology of di is really not complicated. the throne is a container for a baseline multiverse. all of the hadou gods are baseline multiverses. with the void existing outside of the throne. (this is what i understand from many users)

the taikyoku value is not a volume mass value of how powerful you are on a hierarch cosmology. but an attack potency measurement between a bunch of baseline multiverse destroying and embodiment beings.

what i hear from multiple different users who read into dies irae is that the original scans only say that the qualitative difference between the numbers is immeasurable. which is misinterpreted to mean infinite by debaters. going by that on its word, the hadou gods are just imeasurable finite qualitative levels above baseline multiversal and thats it. going by on word to word interpretation without excelling the meanings further of 'imeasurable'.

there is also however this statement i hear from different users and debaters that i talked to that dies irae's multiverse cosmology happens to run on string theory (like morrison) but the dimensionality is not given in detail as to the author's interpretation of that theory

because do not forget that there are several fictions that use string theory and above yet consistently use baseline multiverse statements for describing the entire cosmology of their verse. ben 10 is a classic case of this dimensionality indiscrepancy. so i personally do not use it.

yeah. given the last revelation. i might say that the hadou gods still stomp cosmic armor superman. that depends however on how you interpret that dimensionality. because we know morrison really interprets his dimensions.

also. there was a statement of a character destroying a 24 dimensional barrier. but as some pointed out. it only referred to 24 different dimensional barriers. like dimension barriers and not actual higher dimensional terms. so this really canot be used to determine the number of dimensions in dies irae.

doesnt matter though. in the end. my conclusion is not so far off at all from yours and sungsams. but i do have reservations. a little.

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#30 Posted by zgtfreak (1395 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Hm, yeah. I see where you're coming from. I'm inclined to agree with you actually, but I'll do some research myself eventually.

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#31 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio
@soratoumiga said:

@sungsam: Lol, of course not. He's blowing things out of proportion, as usual. I was merely satirically stating "Oh, damn, it could have been Darkseid." That's simply what happened.

i like how daxnovu implies that its stupid to think that darkseid is stronger than lucifer.

but darkseid exists in the sphere of the gods which is above universe 51. and he argues that lucifer, presence and michael and the endless and all of sandman to be locked and isolated and exist only in the universe 51 continuity. which is a megaverse (bullcrap) according to him?

what is this? i dont even. lol.

did you know he argued that the endless in the sphere of the gods is not the same as the ones in sandman? there are two dreams, two destiny's and etc.? lol.

@zgtfreak said:

@etriel: Hm, yeah. I see where you're coming from. I'm inclined to agree with you actually, but I'll do some research myself eventually.

feel free to do that. i actually wouldnt want other users to just believe what i say about an obscure verse based only on my word on it