Conan the Barbarian vs Hanayama Kaoru (CaV)

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@betatesthighlander1 will be debating for Conan and I will be debating for Hanayama. Our story is that Conan was sent to modern day Japan by a wizard and became a criminal just as he did in Marvel comics. This leads to conflict with the Yakuza and after seeing how formidable he is Hanayama steps in to face him. Conan brought some weapons with him from his time, whatever my opposition wants for him. Hanayama will of course be unarmed.

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Betatesthighlander1

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Debating with an unarmed Conan seems more fair/interesting to me, is that cool?

also, do you want to do the first post, or should I?

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hanayama kaoru breaks his bones and leaves him to die

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@betatesthighlander1: If you want to debate unarmed that's fine, but considering Hanayama already fought a sword user before I gave Conan weapons. I've decided to go first via coin flip.

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@syncroniam: With as many posts as you have you should know the rules of a CaV.

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@mick86: I am excited for this to start

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Betatesthighlander1

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@mick86: this isn't really a super well-organized starter, there are definitely a lot of events you are referencing without showing scans or evidence of.

ya want me to just reply to it as is?

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@betatesthighlander1: I didn't just want it to be a huge wall if images and I assume you've read or watched the series, right?

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@mick86: I mean it's considered good form in a CaV to just link to some sort of evidence or a given claim. Its annoying for me to track down every feat you are referring to and look at it again.

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@betatesthighlander1: I'll make a new opener later today then. I shouldn't have rushed it right now anyway my bad.

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When Hanayama Kaoru was fifteen years old he was given a large back tattoo of a demon-like man carrying an iron bell. This image had been passed down through his clan for generations to honor an unknown man (definitely a past Hanma just saying) who protected an ancestor of the clan by carrying them inside an iron bell, suffering many wounds in the process. Kaoru wasn't satisfied, however, and felt that his tattoo was incomplete. He then performed his most famous feat by slaughtering fifty men from a rival yakuza group in just thirty minutes using only his bare hands. With the skin of his back now slashed apart Kaoru told his men that the tattoo was now complete. It's no wonder that rather than calling him their boss his clan considers him their general.

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As a fan of both the Baki series and Conan I'm confident in saying that Conan the Cimmerian wouldn't defeat Hanayama Kaoru. Both men are superhumans, but Kaoru's physical advantages are overwhelming in this fight. Conan is more skilled and experienced but what is much more often emphasised is his physical prowess. He's used might to defeat skill before, such as when he easily killed a man stated to be the most skilled swordsman in the world and it was compared to a skilled boxer fighting a panther. This was from the short story "The Pool of the Black One" by Robert E. Howard himself. This comes from Conan's own creator.

Zaporavo was the veteran of a thousand fights by sea and by land. There was no man in the world more deeply and thoroughly versed than he in the lore of swordcraft. But he had never been pitted against a blade wielded by thews bred in the wild lands beyond the borders of civilization. Against his fighting- craft was matched blinding speed and strength impossible to a civilized man. Conan's manner of fighting was unorthodox, but instinctive and natural as that of a timber wolf. The intricacies of the sword were as useless against his primitive fury as a human boxer's skill against the onslaughts of a panther.

Fighting as he had never fought before, straining every last ounce of effort to parry the blade that flickered like lightning about his head, Zaporavo in desperation caught a full stroke near his hilt, and felt his whole arm go numb beneath the terrific impact. That stroke was instantly followed by a thrust with such terrible drive behind it that the sharp point ripped through chain-mail and ribs like paper, to transfix the heart beneath.

The physical advantage Kaoru has compared to Conan is very comparable to the way Conan was able to dominate Zaporavo. Skill is not a valid argument here, it seems that Conan's creator himself would agree.

Just how wide is the skill gap? Some of Baki's early opponents were a five-man infantry group who fought without modern weaponry, just blades and physical striking. This is what the five of them were able to do to a group of tanks.

https://www.mangakawaii.net/manga/grappler-baki/en/133/4

And Baki was so much stronger than these men that he was able to hold one of their blades in place using only his muscles.

https://i.imgur.com/1BhGRal.jpeg

These men are fodder compared to the top tiers, and their blows can dent and crumple tanks. A Baki who had already surpassed these men and Hanayama (at that time) went all out attacking Yujiro and was legitimately just ignored.

https://imgur.com/a/kNHMkbO

Just imagine a man giving a speech and not reacting at all as he's shot all over by guns that can easily deform tank armor. Now as I said, Hanayama was weaker than Baki at that time, but he's gotten stronger to the point that he can now give Yujiro a bloody nose while also moving his head.

https://imgur.com/a/5SfMaMH

This may not seem like much improvement, but Yujiro also improves. Constantly improves in fact...

https://imgur.com/a/QvMJ949

Considering Yujiro's improvement rate and how Baki at that time could do nothing to him despite being stronger than Hanayama, currently Hanayama is a ridiculous amount stronger than he used to be and would make the tank-destroying super infantry men look like ordinary men, maybe even children, in terms of physical strength. Conan's physical strikes will do nothing whatsoever to Hanayama and just one punch will suffice to kill or put down the barbarian. This is purely by scaling and the fact he was able to give the strongest in his verse a bloody nose.

I'll leave it at that for now and see how and with what you respond.

@betatesthighlander1

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@mick86 said:

https://www.mangakawaii.net/manga/grappler-baki/en/133/4

And Baki was so much stronger than these men that he was able to hold one of their blades in place using only his muscles.

https://i.imgur.com/1BhGRal.jpeg

These men are fodder compared to the top tiers, and their blows can dent and crumple tanks. A Baki who had already surpassed these men and Hanayama (at that time) went all out attacking Yujiro and was legitimately just ignored.

https://imgur.com/a/kNHMkbO

Just imagine a man giving a speech and not reacting at all as he's shot all over by guns that can easily deform tank armor. Now as I said, Hanayama was weaker than Baki at that time, but he's gotten stronger to the point that he can now give Yujiro a bloody nose while also moving his head.

https://imgur.com/a/5SfMaMH

This may not seem like much improvement, but Yujiro also improves. Constantly improves in fact...

https://imgur.com/a/QvMJ949

Considering Yujiro's improvement rate and how Baki at that time could do nothing to him despite being stronger than Hanayama, currently Hanayama is a ridiculous amount stronger than he used to be and would make the tank-destroying super infantry men look like ordinary men, maybe even children, in terms of physical strength. Conan's physical strikes will do nothing whatsoever to Hanayama and just one punch will suffice to kill or put down the barbarian. This is purely by scaling and the fact he was able to give the strongest in his verse a bloody nose.

I'll leave it at that for now and see how and with what you respond.

@betatesthighlander1

I think its pretty ridiculous to assert Yujiro was harder than a tank at that point in time.

1. We must consider that we never saw any of Gaia's men fight the tank. We have to consider he probably just used a trap because, well, it would be way above the series power-level at the time for somebody to hurt a tank. But even ignoring that, we just plainly have no evidence any of them used their bare hands and not, say, Ewok-style traps against Baki

2. Baki fought pretty evenly with Mt Toba years after fighting Gaia and his gang.

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And Baki only won that fight when Mt Toba's leg gave out. And Mount Toba is, let's face it, just a wrestler with a bulky build. And he's clearly way stronger than Baki, just slower and has a bad knee, that is made clear the whole time. And that was a much older Baki than the one who fought Yujiro in those scans.

And the full extent of Toba's ability was what, crushing a van under his body when he fell from a great height?

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Seriously, you think if he were able to just crush the entire car with his fist, he would have done that instead of climbing all the way to the tp of the arena to fall on it?

3. Yujiro isn't tank level durable even during the maximum tournament.

Yujiro's body, like it or not, was penetrated by darts Years after his fight with Baki. We very clearly see him hemmoraging blood from them. So we have direct evidence of him having durability below that of an armored tank. Because if he had tank level durability, the darts would have bounced off of him.

4. young Baki being tank level seems all wrong. 13 YO punched a punching bag a bunch of times and while he manhandled it...come on, does this look like the kind of damage a tank shell would do?

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The evidence for young Baki being tank-level in terms of offense is, at best, circumstantial. the case against him being that strong is pretty backed up by a bunch of different feats.

And even if we make room for a "skin vs muscles" thing...Hanayama only ever gave Yujiro a bloody nose. which means, like the darts, he only really harmed Yujiro's skin.

Anyway, here are some reasons I think Conan should take this match pretty handilly

Speed Advantage

Conan has a way better series of speed feats than Karou Hanayam does.

Conan's pantherish, blinding speed is mentioned constantly in the old stories

Conan's action was a blur of speed Olivia's eye could not follow. She only saw that he evaded that deadly grasp, and his sword, flashing like a jet of white lightning, sheared through one of those massive arms between shoulder and elbow.

- Pool of the Black One

The bill which Dionus flung up saved the prefect's skull from the whistling blade which turned slightly as it cut through the shaft, and sheared his ear cleanly from his head. The blinding speed of the barbarian paralyzed the senses of the police and made their actions futile gestures.

- God in a Bowl

his ability to move faster than eyesight is demonstrated several times in the comics

Conan has been shown to be able to dodge arrows, catch whips, (mostly) dodge bullets, dodge magic lighting, dodge technological lighting, even dodge crossbow bolts when blinded

Not to mention how we could scale his speed to opponents like Black Panther, Wolverine, and Captain America (among others) all of whom he was able to match reflexes with just fine.

My point is, Conan has demonstrated far superior reflexes to Hanayama, and I think that will be a more difficult thing to overcome than you seem to account for.

Devastating blows

Hanayama can punch pretty hard against inanimate objects, but when it comes to punching people, his abilities often come up a bit short.

When Hanayama fought that sumo recently, his most powerful punch only really knocked the guy down and gave him a bad bloody nose. Baki and Katsumi were both surprised it even knocked him down.

And that guy was more "stunned" than he was "knocked out", he got up right afterward and continued his battle with Hanayama. And Shachihoko, while certainly pretty good...there's no real reason to think he was much more durable than the average person.

What would Hanayama's best feat be, as far as damaging the body? with a single blow?

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probably his punch to that soft-hand martial artist in the first round of the maximum tournament, where he shattered some bones

Impressire, sure, but Conan could do about the same after swimming through tropical seas without any sort of assistance, for four days straight

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In terms of the snap, in terms of the damage it does against the human body? I'm not really convinced Hanayama suppeis more with his fists than Conan can deliver with his own.

in terms of just being able to tank blows that can cause serious harm to people, Conan can certainly receive punishment from guys like Kaleb the destroyer, who can punch colossal demons through stone walls and punch straight through trees.

Against opponents who can just crush heads ith blows, Conan took a punch to the face from a Servant of Bit-Yaken, and they showed such an ability against other humans.

Conan took multiple punches from him and was fine. And it's easy to forget how much blunt force trauma a tree can take, so here's an example of what happens to one when its hit with a speeding car

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I think I have established that Conan can, at the very least, take a few blows from Hanayama. and As for the actual ability of Conan to hurt Hanayama, consider how hard and at he can punch. And we should consider that his blows, even if they can't hurt Hanayama, are more than strong enough to send him flying.

The giant Grandall, large enough that he can crush a man's torso with one fist, flew back when struck by Conan. The very large human Ptolemny similarly went flying from a punch.

either of these people should surpass Hanayama's 166 KG mass, and Conan could drive both back.

As for Conan being able to hurt somebody like Hanayama, with a very touch skeleton and all that? well, consider that Conan cannot just kill human beings with a single blow, but also bulls.

we are told, pretty directly, that Conan could consistently smash the skull of a bull with a single blow, and deliver similarly devastating damage to its spine with a second blow, all striking so swiftly that nobody could even see the blow

As far as I know, in Baki nobody has ever shattered a bull's skull except Yujiro Hanma himself.

For reference, a human skull weighs around 1 kg, a Bengal tiger skull weighs around 2 kg, and a bull skull weighs around 30 pounds, and sure a lot of that is horn, but there's still a BUNCH of bone on the front of that skull. and we know how famous Orochi Doppo became for shattering that tiger skull. so it's not like there's reason to believe anybody in the Bakiverse could replicate that.

So Conan can clearly hurt Hanayama with blows, and can clearly take at least a few blows from Hanayama.

Additionally, his superior speed gives him a colossal advantage in a contest of blows, where he could easily manipulate and outbox somebody like karou

Savage Grappling and Iron-Hard muscle

Conan can take a pretty high degree of pressure on his body.

He took the pincer of a crab that had just torn a lesser man to shreds, as well as taking the force of a hyena's jaws upon his forearm. for reference, a hyena bites with about 9000 newtons (around a ton) of force, and can easily shatter bones

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His muscles can resist a decent bit of force upon them. Enlugh that the giant known as Ball-Pteor couldn't even choke him through his bull neck

And like the stroke of twin cobras, the great hands closed on Conan's throat. The Cimmerian made no attempt to dodge or fend them away, but his own hands darted to the Kosalan's bull-neck. Baal-pteor's black eyes widened as he felt the thick cords of muscles that protected the barbarian's throat. With a snarl he exerted his inhuman strength, and knots and lumps and ropes of thews rose along his massive arms. And then a choking gasp burst from him as Conan's fingers locked on his throat. For an instant they stood there like statues, their faces masks of effort, veins beginning to stand out purply on their temples. Conan's thin lips drew back from his teeth in a grinning snarl. Baal-pteor's eyes were distended and in them grew an awful surprise and the glimmer of fear. Both men stood motionless as images, except for the expanding of their muscles on rigid arms and braced legs, but strength beyond common conception was warring there—strength that might have uprooted trees and crushed the skulls of bullocks.

- Man-Eaters of Zamboula

So, Ball-Pteor was a strong guy that specialized in strangling, and he wasn't strong enough to properly strangle Conan before Conan could strangle him.

The question, of course, is to how strong Ball-Pteor was. Well, we know he can uproot trees. and, as I said earlier, trees are often underestimated

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Here's a tree stump winning against an 8 wheeler.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that in Baki, the only guy who ever uprooted a tree barehanded was Aleksander Karelin, the guy who one-shot (an admittedly injured) Hanayama

and we know for a fact Baal-Pteor's strength is brought to Conan's mind in conflicts with actual supernatural demons (BTW, he shows some pretty nifty grappling escaping from this one)

And Conan just generally shows some pretty effective grappling against people bigger and stronger than he is.

Counters Ball-Pteor's hold, demonstrates ways to break unbreakable grips, pulls guard n a giant and chokes him out, smashes the spine of an gorilla HtH. there's a lot more, but I think those show some significant strength on his part.

Conan's man strategy n grappling is usually breaking the opponent's spine. and he has broken some impressive spines in his time.

As a boy conan broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian Bull, as a man broke the necks of crocodiles, mystical bull/human hybrids of incredible strength, dinosaurs apparently leagues above bulls in terms of how hard their spines are to break, broke "the bear of Heaven"'s spine in a grappling match, and broke the neck of the King Bull, a seven-foot beast with "iron-hard" muscles (a 6 foot tall bull will weigh at least two tons)

So I think even with Hanayama's "place of muscle" Conan would have a chance of breaking his neck. He certainly has some skill when it comes to grappling.

Conan is also skilled at throws, and can even perform them against much larger animals like horses, creatures who should weigh at least three times as much as Hanayama.

And we know from "Conan the Champion" that he can throw a frozen (made clear int he text, enhanced durability and strength) roughly his own size with enough force that he smashes into something a physician would have trouble recognizing as ever having been human

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So, grappling it is. And I think I have proven Conan could at least damage Hanayama's bones. even if he couldn't, we must keep in mind that Conan knows how to damage people even if they are too armored for him to fight, by twisting joints and tendons and ligaments. from the same novel:

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And when it comes to static strength, grappling strength...Conan has shown superior strength to Hanayama.

He can lift and throw boulders larger than his body, pull down siege towers, hold open the mouths of therapods with his legs (one of Pickle's top feats of strength), snap and THROW the main masts of ships, and toss barrels of wine that are significantly larger than himself. All easily multi-ton lifting feats, and these may not even be his best.

and if you are wondering about the wine: In both cases, we can see plainly that the barrel is large enough to strike three men in the chest at the same time, so just going with average chest size that would b about 4 feet tall (which lines up with how big it is in the panel itself) and the full extent of the top of the barrel looks to be about half of Conan's height in either panel where he fits it, and half the height of the soldiers when it collides.

using this calculator a barrel with a height of 4 feet and a radius of 18 inches should hold about 800 liters, 800 liters of wine is about 1800 pounds and literally, the only source I could find on the weight of a large wooden barrel would suggest it weighs about 200 pounds

So, in conclusion, Conan is strong enough and skilled enough to get a better position on Hanayama and crack bones, durable enough tot ake his attacks, and mean enough to kill him swiftly.

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Oh yeah, one of those frozen "lich" creatures had the durability of his flesh compared to that of a log.