Composite Servant vs Archetype Earth

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Chaos239

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Rules of the Battle

  • This includes a composite of every Servant in the Fate franchise outside of a select few
  • Banned Servants are Buddha, Arcueid, Solomon, Ryougi Shiki (Assassin), Void Shiki and Astarte
  • The Servant will fight to their maximum competency
  • Archetype Earth is in character
  • No Avalon
  • Assume main timeline incarnations (No Fate/Extraverse feats)
  • Battle takes place in an empty Fuyuki City with each combatant starting 1000 feet away from each other
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DevoidRuby

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I honestly can’t see a way for Archtype to win.

The sheer amount of hax the composite Servant has it utterly ridiculous, and Archetype Earth has no way to counter 99% of it outside of handwaving it by saying “She can resist because she’s Archetype Earth”.

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Phantasial

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#3  Edited By Phantasial

all die. what's stopping her from summoning counter guards to eliminate those over populace of servants

heck, if she wants to. she can make earth stop producing fake ether and pratically cut off their source of energy....

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DevoidRuby

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@phantasial: Since when has it ever been implied Archetype Earth can just summon Counter Guardians to fight for her?

And the Servant fuels itself thanks to Sigurd’s dragon core which by statements can supply him perfectly fine without even needing the support of a Master. Plus they’d have max level independent action to survive off too.

Heck, if anything the Servant can easily just trap Archetype in a Reality Marble, cutting her off from the World.

You are right, this is a stomp. Only in favour of the Servant.

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VuSkiiCC

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#5  Edited By VuSkiiCC

@devoidruby: Idk if it'll be a full stomp in favor of the Servants. Archetype Earth is described as having no lines of death so the only one out of all the Servants that I know of that could put mortality on her is King Hassan. Medusa or Perseus hitting her with Harpe could in theory kill her too but typical Servants are way outclassed physically compared to Archetype Earth if we scale her from her weaker form as Arcuied. Aside from those means, any damage inflicted on her will be ineffective and any unhealable wounds can be bypassed by simply creating a new body or recreating body parts. Since this is Archetype Earth, I can easily imagine that she'll have the necessary amount of energy in spades to pull off stuff like that.

Also Arcuied could have easily overwhelmed a Reality Marble like barrier if she was serious. With this being Archetype Earth who has access to the fullest extents of Arcuied's powers, I can imagine that she could easily overwhelm Reality Marble or at least they won't be able to contain her for long. Then there's her Marble Phantasm ability which can literally change reality to create any naturally occurring effect.

Welp, that's my input and with the sheer amount of Servants being allowed in this fight I can still see them taking wins. But just don't underplay how powerful Archetype Earth is.

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DevoidRuby

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@vuskiicc: I’m certainly not underselling how strong she is. But a composite Servant is just her worst possible opponent. They’re like Gilgamesh, but way worse.

There’s even a possibility Archetype can’t even hurt the servant.

She’d gonna have to hit the Servant through a combination of God Hand, Armour of Fafnir, Karna’s Armour, Achilles’ immortality, max level endurance stats and actually keep the damage around the damage around through Enkidu’s regeneration, Herk’s resurrection, numerous layers of Battle Continuation and its variants along with any healing Magecraft performed.

Not to mention, outside of Marble Phantasm, I don’t think Archetype can even hurt the comp.

Not only does the Comp have a combination of Achilles’ skill to always be the fastest, which neutralises Archetypes backup from the planet, but it also has Richard’s Godspeed skill stacked onto it.

So it’s a Servant who is a master at every form of martial arts, weapon, Magecraft and pretty much ever mundane skill. Meaning Archetype is hilariously outclassed in skill.

The numerous layers of precognition and battle assistance skills like instinct, Minds Eye, Disengage, Insight in the jaws of death etc

So how is she gonna tag the hyper precognitive, ridiculously skilled, immensely lucky and arguably faster Servant and then do enough damage to break through the numerous layers of protection to the point it can kill the servant even through Battle Continuation and regeneration.

She has to do that 12 times, each time becoming more difficult.

And yes, while Archetype Earth is likely going to be incredibly difficult to kill, Servants aren’t stranger to dealing with immortal beings. If they can place her in a reality marble such as UBW, then use one of their weapons like Harpe, Gae Bolg or one of Diarmuid’s spears, they may be able to kill her if they use Calamity Jane’s weakness creating skill.

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Phantasial

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#7  Edited By Phantasial

@devoidruby said:

@phantasial: Since when has it ever been implied Archetype Earth can just summon Counter Guardians to fight for her?

And the Servant fuels itself thanks to Sigurd’s dragon core which by statements can supply him perfectly fine without even needing the support of a Master. Plus they’d have max level independent action to survive off too.

Heck, if anything the Servant can easily just trap Archetype in a Reality Marble, cutting her off from the World.

You are right, this is a stomp. Only in favour of the Servant.

since archetype = earth's will. what gaia can do, naturally so can archetype arcueid.

that's 1 servant who can fuel himself...

marble phantasm is a thing you know.

still no. and you lost me when you compared them to the most argued to-be god of servants goldie san.

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VuSkiiCC

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@devoidruby: Oohh yeah, I forgot about Calamity Jane. Tbh, I haven't really been keeping up with all of the new Servants lol.

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DevoidRuby

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@phantasial: The Counter Guardians are beasts of the Counter Force, which is a separate conscious to the World which Arcueid embodies.

Which applies to the composite.

Marble Phantasm isn’t going to work 12 times.

The composite includes Gilgamesh?

You do know what a composite Servant is right?

It’s taking the abilities of every Servant in the series and giving them to 1 being to use. Meaning the battle isn’t Archetype Earth vs every servant, but Archetype Earth vs a character with the abilities of every Servant.

Hence why she gets stomped due to the sheer amount of ludicrous hax the Comp has.

Also, the Comp also gets mana from the World to due Consort Yu, another elemental.

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Phantasial

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@phantasial: The Counter Guardians are beasts of the Counter Force, which is a separate conscious to the World which Arcueid embodies.

Which applies to the composite.

Marble Phantasm isn’t going to work 12 times.

The composite includes Gilgamesh?

You do know what a composite Servant is right?

It’s taking the abilities of every Servant in the series and giving them to 1 being to use. Meaning the battle isn’t Archetype Earth vs every servant, but Archetype Earth vs a character with the abilities of every Servant.

Hence why she gets stomped due to the sheer amount of ludicrous hax the Comp has.

Also, the Comp also gets mana from the World to due Consort Yu, another elemental.

I was under the illusion this was composite servantS vs arcueid and I was like...come on guys, wtf? nevermind then

The Counter Guardians are beasts of the Counter Force, which is a separate conscious to the World which Arcueid embodies.

the counter force is created by bothalaya/gaia (whom used to be 1 will originally) in the first place. thinking that it's literally a separate conscious is is a bit pedantic at best.

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ValorKnight

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Chaos is still around? Nice.

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zgtfreak

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#12  Edited By zgtfreak

Archetype-Earth is immune to platonic level concepts. She negs all of Fate. 99% of Fate hax do not reach platonic concept level, let alone beyond it. They can't harm her or put her down. Don't compare Arcueid's no concept of death to immortality. It's flat out stated that immortality is not enough to describe her and is nothing in comparison to her existence. A black barrel round could instill the concept of death in her (if it hits her), but she can abandon and reinvent her body entirely if she does get killed by having a concept of death. They have no way to put her down at all. Cutting her off from Gaia doesn't kill her, it just removes her Ultimate One amp and infinite mana (which isn't needed here). (I was going to bring up Blut die Schwester countering that, but that was only shown in Extra.) But it is stated that Arcueid can blow away reality marbles anyways. She casually one shots with either raw power overwhelming God Hand entirely, or just conceptually kills them. Adding in Buddha and Solomon isn't helping either. Archetype automatically scales above Beast, including Mara. Honestly... Arcueid could just make the World correct Heroic Spirits existing at all I'm pretty sure.

...

But at least you banned Fate/Extra Arcueid...

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SagaTheLegend

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#13 SagaTheLegend  Online

Composite Servant stomps

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SagaTheLegend

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#14 SagaTheLegend  Online

Also conceptual garbage lol

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DevoidRuby

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@zgtfreak said:

Archetype-Earth is immune to platonic level concepts. She negs all of Fate. 99% of Fate hax do not reach platonic concept level, let alone beyond it.

Based on what resistance feats does she resist their hax? The only hax Archetype resists by feats is stuff she scales from Arcueid off of, and having no concept of death.

They can't harm her or put her down.

I don’t see why a combination of the strongest Servants strength using a weapon like Harpe, while being amped by Empyrean Eye, Jane’s weakness creation and even throwing nine lives into the mix wouldn’t be able to harm her at least.

Or they can just erase her from existence with Okita Alter’s Noble Phantasm,


Cutting her off from Gaia doesn't kill her, it just removes her Ultimate One amp and infinite mana (which isn't needed here)

Her ultimate One skill and infinite mana are the only things stopping her from being blitzed to death as the battle goes on or instant killed via Medusa’s eyes.

(I was going to bring up Blut die Schwester countering that, but that was only shown in Extra.) But it is stated that Arcueid can blow away reality marbles anyways.

It’s stated that if the Planets support > The world summoned that it can be overwhelmed, and that’s only stated in comparison to a barrier on White Len’s level while the only comparison we have vs a reality marble is depending on what’s summoning it, they could fully cut off her support.


She casually one shots with either raw power overwhelming God Hand entirely, or just conceptually kills them.

She’s going to tag an arguably faster opponent with numerous layers of precognition, illusion magic, clairvoyance, teleportation, presence concealment, hilarious skill advantages and kill them 12 (15 if we include Nero’s revival skill) times over through various protections (how does she even get through Achilles’ immortality?) causally? I honestly don’t think she has a chance.

Adding in Buddha and Solomon isn't helping either. Archetype automatically scales above Beast, including Mara.

No Beast would have a chance of beating a composite Servant by feats outside of maybe Goetia abusing his Noble Phantasm negation skill.

Honestly... Arcueid could just make the World correct Heroic Spirits existing at all I'm pretty sure.

Feats?

Hell, Fate scales far beyond Tsukihime if we don’t give Tsukihime the chance to scale off of Fate itself.

The only thing that keeps Arcueid on top is several year old statements and then proceeding to scale everything else in Fate that is by feats, far stronger than her, below her. Her best feats are being able to manipulate the planet, play ping pong with continents and use marble Phantasm to make up for her lack of real hax.

Astarte is a literal galaxy, and at prime she can become an entire universe. MHXA can casually rewind time on a universal scale and revive people from the dead while by statements being able to manipulate the matter of half the entire universe to be what she wants, MHXX can causally bust the planet itself With her NP too.

Archetype doesn’t even get to scale to any of them thanks to them being from another universe and not being people of Earth.

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REQUIEMCROSS

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Can't composite servant kill the future where they will lose through servant shiki?

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DevoidRuby

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@requiemcross: OP says Shiki is banned.

Musashi’s empyrean Eye basically does the same thing though.

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zgtfreak

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#18  Edited By zgtfreak

@devoidruby: Based on what resistance feats does she resist their hax? The only hax Archetype resists by feats is stuff she scales from Arcueid off of, and having no concept of death.

I don’t see why a combination of the strongest Servants strength using a weapon like Harpe, while being amped by Empyrean Eye, Jane’s weakness creation and even throwing nine lives into the mix wouldn’t be able to harm her at least.

Or they can just erase her from existence with Okita Alter’s Noble Phantasm,

MEoDP is the platonic concept of death that emanates from the Root. Platonic concepts are boundless, eternal, perfected concepts. Yet Arcueid is immune to it because it does not exist in her. The only limits MEoDP have ever shown (aside from not being able to kill Arc) are due to the users' limited brain. But we know Arc is entirely immune to MEoDP. No Servant has platonic concept level hax or higher (hax beyond concepts entirely). Your mistake is comparing Type no concept of death to Fate no concept of death/mere immortality. It's flat out stated that immortality is not enough to describe Arc's no concept of death and is nothing in comparison to her existence. Again, a black barrel round could instill the concept of death in her (if it hits her), but she can abandon and reinvent her body entirely if she does get killed by having a concept of death. This leaves no way for the Servants to put her down, even if they instilled the concept of death in her.

Her ultimate One skill and infinite mana are the only things stopping her from being blitzed to death as the battle goes on or instant killed via Medusa’s eyes.

How is she getting blitzed? They can't put her down. And she could simply abandon and reinvent her body if frozen by Medusa's eyes. And again, she can blow away any Servant reality marble like she's stated to be able to with White Len's.

It’s stated that if the Planets support > The world summoned that it can be overwhelmed, and that’s only stated in comparison to a barrier on White Len’s level while the only comparison we have vs a reality marble is depending on what’s summoning it, they could fully cut off her support.

It said an alien reality marble may cut off her support. Servants clearly don't have this.

She’s going to tag an arguably faster opponent with numerous layers of precognition, illusion magic, clairvoyance, teleportation, presence concealment, hilarious skill advantages and kill them 12 (15 if we include Nero’s revival skill) times over through various protections (how does she even get through Achilles’ immortality?) causally? I honestly don’t think she has a chance.

I don't see how they'd be faster even without Ultimate One. With it, then she will be faster. Also your mistake is assuming that Archetype-Earth will engage them in melee comb at. She only did that for fun in MB and stated that she normally doesn't fight like that. Precog, nigh-omniscience, and concealment isn't helping if she AOE nukes them. God Hand and Thrice Setting Sun isn't tanking someone who scales above Beast. I am mentioning scaling above Beast solely to explain why Arc overpowers God Hand in one attack. That's the only reason I brought it up.

And what is Achilles' immortality again?

Feats?

As the Earth (and Moon's) Type, she has authority over the planet and can control it at will:

Unlike Arcueid, Archetype:Earth has full access to Arcueid's full power and more authority over the planet than she normally possesses. She is called an Ultimate One in this state, taking on her original appearance before losing her hair to Altrouge Brunestud, and the part of her in control is the subconscious Crimson Moon side of her.

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Arcueid_Brunestud#Bloodlust

He essentially is apart of the planet, calling it her skin:

No Caption Provided

Here is Arc casually commanding the Earth to halt its rotation (before being interrupted by normal Arc in her head).

No Caption Provided

Servants are fighting against the embodiment of the planet's will that they live on. She should have several off-switches to them. Independent action shouldn't be powerful enough to supply a composite Servant on a planet that has now rejected them and has cut off all of their sources of mana and existence. Hell, what's stopping her from a simple kill via Marble Phantasm turning the atmosphere into a vacuum like she did with Roa? What about just throwing them into space or into the sun? These are all easy effortless options.

Hell, Fate scales far beyond Tsukihime if we don’t give Tsukihime the chance to scale off of Fate itself.

The only thing that keeps Arcueid on top is several year old statements and then proceeding to scale everything else in Fate that is by feats, far stronger than her, below her. Her best feats are being able to manipulate the planet, play ping pong with continents and use marble Phantasm to make up for her lack of real hax.

Actually, her no concept of death combined with the abandoning and reinventing her body is what makes her too hard for the verse to put down. Zelretch also needed to draw power from infinite parallel worlds to fight Type-Moon IIRC, who is only equal to Red Arcueid.

And Arc is cemented at the top of the verse due to Extraverse saying her restricted base form is the only character in ALL of Extra who has a small chance of taking down Amaterasu. A full power Extra Arc or Extra Archetype-Earth would have all Moon Cell hax and things on Earth recorded by the Moon Cell like BB did because the Moon Cell itself is stated to be a mere part/aspect of Arcueid, and that she can treat it like her reality marble when not restricted by Gatou and Berserker stuff. So unrestricted Extraverse Arcueid is insanely haxed due to the Moon Cell, along with no concept of death and the abandoning and reinventing of her body on a platonic conceptual level, Ultimate One, and 1/6 reduction ability. Even Amaterasu is heavily outclassed by unrestricted Arc or Archetype-Earth. So yeah, Arc is cemented at the top of the verse mainly due to Extraverse Arc. I know this thread banned Extraverse; I am just pointing out that Extraverse Arc cements Arc as number 1 more so than the main timelines.

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DevoidRuby

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@zgtfreak said:

@devoidruby:

MEoDP is the platonic concept of death that emanates from the Root. Platonic concepts are boundless, eternal, perfected concepts. Yet Arcueid is immune to it because it does not exist in her. The only limits MEoDP have ever shown (aside from not being able to kill Arc) are due to the users' limited brain. But we know Arc is entirely immune to MEoDP.

We know Archetype Earth has no concept of death. Just like the other TYPEs due to not following the Earth’s rules. Just like how Tiamat herself does not have a concept of death. There is nothing that implies Arcueid‘s lack of death is in anyway better than Tiamat’s own.

No Servant has platonic concept level hax or higher (hax beyond concepts entirely). Your mistake is comparing Type no concept of death to Fate no concept of death/mere immortality. It's flat out stated that immortality is not enough to describe Arc's no concept of death and is nothing in comparison to her existence. Again, a black barrel round could instill the concept of death in her (if it hits her), but she can abandon and reinvent her body entirely if she does get killed by having a concept of death. This leaves no way for the Servants to put her down, even if they instilled the concept of death in her.

So it‘s a stalemate. Arcueid can’t kill the Servant while the Servant doesn’t have anyway to kill Arcueid permanently. Outside of simply blowing up the planet and then killing her. Because there’s numerous servants capable of busting the Earth within the composite. Or they could wave their hand and erase the Earth via MHXA.

How is she getting blitzed?

Because Achilles‘ skill counters Arc’s support from the planet, as it makes him faster than his opponent. Then you stack numerous other movement skills like Crossing Arcadia, Godspeed and various mana bursts.

They can't put her down. And she could simply abandon and reinvent her body if frozen by Medusa's eyes. And again, she can blow away any Servant reality marble like she's stated to be able to with White Len's.

In the second or 2 she’s in the reality marble, the servant would possibly be able to score Some form of damage.

It said an alien reality marble may cut off her support. Servants clearly don't have this.

Given the lack of elaboration on the topic of RMs and Support from the World (outside of RMs like I’m assuming ORTs) I’ll not bother going on with that approach.

I don't see how they'd be faster even without Ultimate One. With it, then she will be faster.

Achilles‘ speed skill = Ultimate One in the speed approach, the servant just has several other speed buffing skills to stack on it.

Also your mistake is assuming that Archetype-Earth will engage them in melee comb at. She only did that for fun in MB and stated that she normally doesn't fight like that. Precog, nigh-omniscience, and concealment isn't helping if she AOE nukes them. God Hand and Thrice Setting Sun isn't tanking someone who scales above Beast. I am mentioning scaling above Beast solely to explain why Arc overpowers God Hand in one attack. That's the only reason I brought it up.

Herk alone was able to block Surtr’s attack with his Gods Hand’s lives. Now stack the numerous other defences And healing methods into that and I honestly doubt Arc can just one shot them.

And what is Achilles' immortality again?

You can’t harm him if you aren’t divine or wield a divine construct.

As the Earth (and Moon's) Type, she has authority over the planet and can control it at will:

Important part of that quote being ‘gaining more authority‘ And not ‘absolute‘ or ‘total’. I see no reason to assume Arc can wave her hand and make the World immediately start deleting the composite. Especially when that’s impossible due to Intendant Manifestation.

Servants are fighting against the embodiment of the planet's will that they live on. She should have several off-switches to them.

But thats never stated or even implied, and is bypassed thanks to Independent Manifestation anyway.

Independent action shouldn't be powerful enough to supply a composite Servant on a planet that has now rejected them and has cut off all of their sources of mana and existence.

Sigurd can completely fuel himself just fine without any form of master, then stack several dozen independent action skills, the Kaleidosticks drawing mana from alternate words and the ridiculous amount of mana from Gil, Skadi, Merlin, Medea etc

They’ll be just fine I think.

Hell, what's stopping her from a simple kill via Marble Phantasm turning the atmosphere into a vacuum like she did with Roa?

The fact Servants have numerous ways to escape like Chloe’s teleportation, several protections Roa didn’t have or simply reviving through God Hand if they do get caught somehow.

What about just throwing them into space or into the sun? These are all easy effortless options.

You mean physically? Through MP? Manipulating the planet? Because none of which can happen due to pecog/clairvoyance and teleportation.

Actually, her no concept of death combined with the abandoning and reinventing her body is what makes her too hard for the verse to put down. Zelretch also needed to draw power from infinite parallel worlds to fight Type-Moon IIRC, who is only equal to Red Arcueid.

MHXA is universal in power, the Composite waves it’s hand and deletes the solar system.

And Arc is cemented at the top of the verse due to Extraverse saying her restricted base form is the only character in ALL of Extra who has a small chance of taking down Amaterasu. A full power Extra Arc or Extra Archetype-Earth would have all Moon Cell hax and things on Earth recorded by the Moon Cell like BB did because the Moon Cell itself is stated to be a mere part/aspect of Arcueid, and that she can treat it like her reality marble when not restricted by Gatou and Berserker stuff. So unrestricted Extraverse Arcueid is insanely haxed due to the Moon Cell, along with no concept of death and the abandoning and reinventing of her body on a platonic conceptual level, Ultimate One, and 1/6 reduction ability. Even Amaterasu is heavily outclassed by unrestricted Arc or Archetype-Earth. So yeah, Arc is cemented at the top of the verse mainly due to Extraverse Arc. I know this thread banned Extraverse; I am just pointing out that Extraverse Arc cements Arc as number 1 more so than the main timelines.

Except Amaterasu by lore would be complete fodder to Astarte. One of them is a god who represents a star, the sun, while the other is a God who represents an entire primordial galaxy and eventually an entire universe.

So if Astarte gets Extraverse scaling, she’d be orders of magnitude beyond Amaterasu in every way.

And the only point of comparison to Arc to Amaterasu is Nasu stating Arcueid is the only one who can bring Amaterasu down to the point she’s beatable. Not exactly much to barely be able to beat Amaterasu who’s essentially an ant to Astarte.

As far as I can tell, the composite waves it’s hand and deletes the planet due to MHXA’s feats before slapping Archetype Earth like a bug.

Or they bust the planet with Ea, MHXX’s NP or Arjuna Alter’s.

Or use one of their anti immortality weapons on her.

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MrBallins

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#20  Edited By MrBallins

@devoidruby:>Except Amaterasu by lore would be complete fodder to Astarte.

Amaterasu is superior to Kiara so not really, she is also a Buddha so she should be able to manipulate Man's Universe of Awareness like Saver can. Astarte is quite powerful though

Amaterasu should be capable of affecting conceptual universes like Kiara and Mara's anyways, the question is whether she is a galaxy class entity(because even if you can pop conceptual universes you cannot harm her unless you are a galaxy level being), which she might be since Tamamo says that at her full form she would be able to destroy the sandendaisensekai, which in Biddhism refers to star clusters iirc (though Nasu could be using it to refer to the Universe of Awareness)

@zgtfreak:>Archetype automatically scales above Beast, including Mara

This may not actually be correct. Some info in LB2 hints that Gods are inherently weaker than planetary wills because they are enshrined on Earth. So it is a conceptual advantage instead of a raw power one, like with the White Titan. This means that Arc may not scale above them by default simply because she is a TYPE but she will still defeat any enshrined god

>Your mistake is comparing Type no concept of death to Fate no concept of death/mere immortality.

Tiamat lacks a concept of death because she is older than it, no idea how this doesn't scale to Arc considering that they lack it for similar reason, with Arc not having one because the planet didn't give one to her

>Servants are fighting against the embodiment of the planet's will that they live on. She should have several off-switches to them.

Servants are beings of Alaya, Archetype's abilities do not affect them by default, just like Marble Phantasm does not directly affect humans iirc

>Independent action shouldn't be powerful enough to supply a composite Servant on a planet that has now rejected them and has cut off all of their sources of mana and existence.

They have several skills to deal with that + Independent Manifestation from Kiara

>Hell, what's stopping her from a simple kill via Marble Phantasm turning the atmosphere into a vacuum like she did with Roa?

Are you... seriously impying that a vacuum will kill the composite Servant?

>Even Amaterasu is heavily outclassed by unrestricted Arc or Archetype-Earth

Not true, assuming that 1/6 Ama is equal to 30% Arc (Which is wrong because even then Arc would only have a sliver of a chance) then Archetype should be stronger than full on Ama and unrestricted Arc should be weaker. This is without Blood Sisters, but she cannot use that to nerf her opponent unless they are fighting on the Moon

One thing to also note, but the composite Servant will ahve Yu's regeneration, which cannot be stopped even with Gae Bolg (or at least it was implied in Summer 4, where Scathach walked away from her instead of using Gae Bolg to try and damage her after being taunted to try and kill her iirc)

@requiemcross:>Can't composite servant kill the future where they will lose through servant shiki?

Shiki cannot do that normally, her opponent in that fight in specific made the future concrete which let her cut it

@phantasial:>what's stopping her from summoning counter guards to eliminate those over populace of servants

Counter guardians are owned by Alaya, which Arc has no control over

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zgtfreak

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#21  Edited By zgtfreak

@devoidruby: We know Archetype Earth has no concept of death. Just like the other TYPEs due to not following the Earth’s rules. Just like how Tiamat herself does not have a concept of death. There is nothing that implies Arcueid‘s lack of death is in anyway better than Tiamat’s own.

They have no concept of death in them period. Tiamat can't abandon and reinvent her body if she has a concept of death instilled in her.Arcueid can. They have no way to bypass her.

So it‘s a stalemate. Arcueid can’t kill the Servant while the Servant doesn’t have anyway to kill Arcueid permanently. Outside of simply blowing up the planet and then killing her. Because there’s numerous servants capable of busting the Earth within the composite. Or they could wave their hand and erase the Earth via MHXA.

Destroying the Earth won't kill Arcueid. lol

Because Achilles‘ skill counters Arc’s support from the planet, as it makes him faster than his opponent. Then you stack numerous other movement skills like Crossing Arcadia, Godspeed and various mana bursts.

That would at best keep him at equal speed with Ultimate One since they cancel each other out.

Herk alone was able to block Surtr’s attack with his Gods Hand’s lives. Now stack the numerous other defences And healing methods into that and I honestly doubt Arc can just one shot them.

Surt is fodder to Arc. Aside from Karna's armor, I don't see other defense buffs being relevant in comparison to God Hand. And I don't see any of them resisting a full power blast from her, let alone her using conceptual attacks, which basic physical defense buffs aren't meant for.

You can’t harm him if you aren’t divine or wield a divine construct.

So it goes up to divinity. Types>>>>your average Divine Spirit/god on Earth.

Important part of that quote being ‘gaining more authority‘ And not ‘absolute‘ or ‘total’. I see no reason to assume Arc can wave her hand and make the World immediately start deleting the composite. Especially when that’s impossible due to Intendant Manifestation.

But thats never stated or even implied, and is bypassed thanks to Independent Manifestation anyway.

Sigurd can completely fuel himself just fine without any form of master, then stack several dozen independent action skills, the Kaleidosticks drawing mana from alternate words and the ridiculous amount of mana from Gil, Skadi, Merlin, Medea etc

They’ll be just fine I think.

Apparently being the will of the planet isn't enough. lol She has control over the Earth and its mana (we know this and have seen this). She can easily sever their connection. A few Independent Manifestations can't supply a composite Servant, considering the mana requirements would be too high and over half of them don't have the skill on any meaningful level to compensate.

The fact Servants have numerous ways to escape like Chloe’s teleportation, several protections Roa didn’t have or simply reviving through God Hand if they do get caught somehow.

They can't escape something that's an AoE and appears out of nowhere. And I don't see God Hand surviving this.

You mean physically? Through MP? Manipulating the planet? Because none of which can happen due to pecog/clairvoyance and teleportation.

AoE blasting them away. They have no answer. Teleporting isn't helping unless they can go to another reality.

MHXA is universal in power, the Composite waves it’s hand and deletes the solar system.

That's not doing anything to even mainline Archetype-Earth. Zelretch needed mana across the entire multiverse from parallel worlds just to be able to defeat Type-Moon, who is stated to only be equal to Red Arcueid, who is below Archetype-Earth. And Fate scales to none of this since this is all from Tsukihime. And raw power is irrelevant to Arcueid's no concept of death anyways.

Except Amaterasu by lore would be complete fodder to Astarte. One of them is a god who represents a star, the sun, while the other is a God who represents an entire primordial galaxy and eventually an entire universe.

So if Astarte gets Extraverse scaling, she’d be orders of magnitude beyond Amaterasu in every way.

Mrballins dealt with this I see. And Extraverse makes who is stronger than who completely different from the main timelines, with Nero taking out Gaiwan, Cu, Saver, and Karna with no special amps, ect. So even if Amaterasu was weaker in the main timelines, it may be completely different in Extraverse, And Astarte is featless, meaning Extraverse Arc haxstomps her until further notice.

And the only point of comparison to Arc to Amaterasu is Nasu stating Arcueid is the only one who can bring Amaterasu down to the point she’s beatable. Not exactly much to barely be able to beat Amaterasu who’s essentially an ant to Astarte.

Archetype-Earth with full Moon Cell and Gaia hax>>>Red Arcueid with full Moon Cell hax>>>>>>>>>>>30% base Arcueid restricting her bloodlust>>>>>>sanity restored Berserker Servant Arcueid that was downgraded from a First Class True Ancestor to a god>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>insane Gatou nerfed Berserker Arcueid. Sanity restored Berserker Servant Arcueid that was downgraded from a First Class True Ancestor to a god was stated to have a small chance against Amaterasu with her 1/6 reduction ability. Amaterasu has a long way to go to stand up to Extraverse Archetype-Earth in raw power alone, let alone hax. Extraverse Arcueid quite literally haxstomps the verse right now.

Or use one of their anti immortality weapons on her.

...

No concept of death>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>immortality.

@mrballinsThis may not actually be correct. Some info in LB2 hints that Gods are inherently weaker than planetary wills because they are enshrined on Earth. So it is a conceptual advantage instead of a raw power one, like with the White Titan. This means that Arc may not scale above them by default simply because she is a TYPE but she will still defeat any enshrined god

Gods do not have any feats on the level of Zelretch, who barely defeated Type-Moon. Arcueid scaling above Type-Moon and Zelretch puts her above all of mainline Nasuverse outside of Extraverse right now.

Servants are beings of Alaya, Archetype's abilities do not affect them by default, just like Marble Phantasm does not directly affect humans iirc

I know this. She can cut off the Earth's mana still.

They have several skills to deal with that + Independent Manifestation from Kiara

Read my reply to Ruby for my answer to this.

Are you... seriously impying that a vacuum will kill the composite Servant?

Servants are some of the lowest tier entities in the Nasuverse. Unless I have yet to discover waifu number seven sexdecillion from Fate/GO with some dumb hax, I don't see them surviving. Well, Ruby did say there is a universal one now at least...

Not true, assuming that 1/6 Ama is equal to 30% Arc (Which is wrong because even then Arc would only have a sliver of a chance) then Archetype should be stronger than full on Ama and unrestricted Arc should be weaker. This is without Blood Sisters, but she cannot use that to nerf her opponent unless they are fighting on the Moon

Two things... One: I was counting the insane hax advantage Archetype-Earth has on the nigh-featless Amaterasu. Two: I realized that Amaterasu was being compared to Berserker Arcueid with her sanity restored, who was downgraded from a First Class True Ancestor to a god. So Amaterasu was compared to an Arcueid way below 30% logically.

One thing to also note, but the composite Servant will ahve Yu's regeneration, which cannot be stopped even with Gae Bolg (or at least it was implied in Summer 4, where Scathach walked away from her instead of using Gae Bolg to try and damage her after being taunted to try and kill her iirc)

A non-weakened Marble Phantasm would've destroyed Roa's entire body and would've stopped his regeneration.

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Shouldn't a few composite Servants like Arjuna, Karna, Gilgamesh and Hercs be already somewhat capable of holding their own against her ? I believe this fight goes to Composite Servant but I'll read through the arguments, I'm not the most knowledgable of the Nasuverse.

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#23  Edited By SagaTheLegend  Online

Without Wank and Fate Scalling, Arcued dies. Otherwise the Composite still wins

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MrBallins

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@zgtfreak: >Destroying the Earth won't kill Arcueid. lol

Nothing ever has implied that, Arc is the planet's ultimate one and should die alongside the planet, considering that she is not in Notes at all

>So it goes up to divinity. Types>>>>your average Divine Spirit/god on Earth.

TYPEs probably lack Divinity since they are elemental spirits, while Divinity is heavily implied to come through worship and enshrinement

Also, I already pointed out why the TYPE>God rule may not be due to differences in power

>A few Independent Manifestations can't supply a composite Servant, considering the mana requirements would be too high and over half of them don't have the skill on any meaningful level to compensate.

Galvanism, dragon cores and a ton of other skills in addition to IP can do it, though. Hell, they should have Illya in them so they would be able to do the Zelretch trick of gathering energy from parallel worlds since the Kaleidosticks can do that iirc. Their superior magic circuits from the best Casters in existence will make sure that the Servant will not get burned

>Zelretch needed mana across the entire multiverse from parallel worlds just to be able to defeat Type-Moon, who is stated to only be equal to Red Arcueid, who is below Archetype-Earth

Just a note, but Zelretch used a finite amount of energy to counter it, considering that it burned his body

>Mrballins dealt with this I see

Actually, I mentioned nothing about Arc. Amaterasu can bypass it since she is a cosmic entity (Due to being a Buddha, if she was only a sun god she would not get past it), but Arc should be a planetary spirit only and as such may not be able to conceptuall bypass the "must be a galaxy class entity" requirement. She may be able to beat Astarte because enshrined gods<TYPEs via conceptual advantage, but otherwise she should not be getting past her galaxy class defense since she is just a planetary will

>. Amaterasu has a long way to go to stand up to Extraverse Archetype-Earth in raw power alone, let alone hax

What? Gatou's Arc would not have been that nerfed, not even under 30% most likely. We have no idea at what percentage of power she was, but it would not be enough to the point that she would stomp someone that she had an astronomically low level of chance against. Also, if anything Amaterasu will have more raw power than Arc since Goetia confirmed that the planet has finite reserves of energy and Amaterasu has the same energy as a sun (Which I will assume to have more energy than a planet until we get a number on Earth's energy)

>Servants are some of the lowest tier entities in the Nasuverse. Unless I have yet to discover waifu number seven sexdecillion from Fate/GO with some dumb hax, I don't see them surviving.

Dude, it's a vacuum. If anything, not surviving it is an anti-feat for Roa.

>So Amaterasu was compared to an Arcueid way below 30% logically.

Okay, and? She had a sliver of a chance, how much is that? 1%? 10%? I really doubt that Arc was that much below 30% to the point that she was in the decimals, which would be the only way that she is completely beyond Amaterasu

We are both making wild guesses about a statement that was meant to imply Ama's superiority over Arc

>A non-weakened Marble Phantasm would've destroyed Roa's entire body and would've stopped his regeneration.

Yu's regeneration is superior to Roa's so that doesn't really matter

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zgtfreak

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#25  Edited By zgtfreak

@mrballins: Nothing ever has implied that, Arc is the planet's ultimate one and should die alongside the planet, considering that she is not in Notes at all

Nothing ever even implies a Type dies when their planet is destroyed. Hell, when it mentions an alien reality marble cutting her off from the planet, it just says it removes her backup. Nothing about killing her. And using Notes is a terrible example. We have no idea about the events leading up to Notes. Hell, Type-Moon is still around even.

TYPEs probably lack Divinity since they are elemental spirits, while Divinity is heavily implied to come through worship and enshrinement

It doesn't matter. Types are far above what his immortality is supposed to deal with. You can't say he'll tank things that are beyond the divine simply because they aren't divine. I mean do you really see him tanking a timeline nuke from the Moon Cell because it isn't divine? No. (I'm not using Extraverse Arc. Just used the Moon Cell as an example).

Also, I already pointed out why the TYPE>God rule may not be due to differences in power

The gods have nothing that'd put them over Types.

Galvanism, dragon cores and a ton of other skills in addition to IP can do it, though. Hell, they should have Illya in them so they would be able to do the Zelretch trick of gathering energy from parallel worlds since the Kaleidosticks can do that iirc. Their superior magic circuits from the best Casters in existence will make sure that the Servant will not get burned

Kaleidosticks? The hell is that?

Just a note, but Zelretch used a finite amount of energy to counter it, considering that it burned his body

That doesn't necessarily mean it was finite. However even if it was, he was still gathering energy from across the multiverse.

Actually, I mentioned nothing about Arc. Amaterasu can bypass it since she is a cosmic entity (Due to being a Buddha, if she was only a sun god she would not get past it), but Arc should be a planetary spirit only and as such may not be able to conceptuall bypass the "must be a galaxy class entity" requirement. She may be able to beat Astarte because enshrined gods<TYPEs via conceptual advantage, but otherwise she should not be getting past her galaxy class defense since she is just a planetary will

You take conceptual authority too seriously. Arc when she was nerfed to a god was still compared to Amaterasu (galaxy class). So Arc is so powerful that it doesn't matter. If the conceptual advantage applies to Arc, then Amaterasu's chances of victory would be 100% against Arc, yet they aren't even against downgraded god Arc.

What? Gatou's Arc would not have been that nerfed, not even under 30% most likely. We have no idea at what percentage of power she was, but it would not be enough to the point that she would stomp someone that she had an astronomically low level of chance against.

She has a small chance as an enshrined god and being restricted by a Servant class... How is that even remotely noticeable to Archetype-Earth essentially being a dual-Type of the Earth and the Moon. The power difference there is incredible. And yes, Extra confirms that True Ancestors>gods, as it says gods are a downgrade.

Also, if anything Amaterasu will have more raw power than Arc since Goetia confirmed that the planet has finite reserves of energy and Amaterasu has the same energy as a sun (Which I will assume to have more energy than a planet until we get a number on Earth's energy)

Tsukihime and Extraverse worlds =/= Fate worlds.

Dude, it's a vacuum. If anything, not surviving it is an anti-feat for Roa.

Keep in mind that I scale Roa and True Ancestors astronomically beyond 99% of Servants, bar the top ones. If it shredded him, then I see it being a threat.

Okay, and? She had a sliver of a chance, how much is that? 1%? 10%? I really doubt that Arc was that much below 30% to the point that she was in the decimals, which would be the only way that she is completely beyond Amaterasu

We are both making wild guesses about a statement that was meant to imply Ama's superiority over Arc

It wasn't meant to display superiority over Arc. In the same statement, it says Berserker Arcueid is no longer the strongest in the Moon Cell (meaning she is the strongest outside of it) because the Moon Cell can amp entities inside of it beyond their natural existence, and the fact that it nerfed Servant Arc in the war. So Extra flat out indirectly states that she is the strongest outside of the Moon Cell since none of her nerfs and enemy buffs apply there.

...

Or if it is normal unrestricted Arc that isn't a Servant and has full control over the Moon Cell like she normally does. So yeah, a full power Arc unrestrained by anything is out of Amaterasu's league (mostly due to hax though).

Yu's regeneration is superior to Roa's so that doesn't really matter

What does it do?

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MrBallins

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#26  Edited By MrBallins

@zgtfreak:>it just says it removes her backup

There is a difference between the source of your life being cut off and being destroyed. Pretty much all life except humans in Notes died out with the planet, and humans hanged around probably because they are connected to Gaia instead of Alaya

>And using Notes is a terrible example.

While i agree with this, until Nasu properly retcons it (Since as it stands now, a proper god would shit on everything in Notes because they are made out entirely out of True Ether) we have to use what we have

>I mean do you really see him tanking a timeline nuke from the Moon Cell because it isn't divine

Not really, there are clear limits, but it should work for physical hits.

>The gods have nothing that'd put them over Types.

The only thing that TYPEs have over gods is a few statements and hype. I would adore nothing more than for ORT to appear and start kicking shit on the Fate side with the only thing that could stop him being Grand Saber Ado Edem, but TYPEs only get powerscaling from other characters due to statements since they are not present. God, I fucking hate how Nasu dropped TYPEs and added Lovecraftian gods (Technically wasn't him, since only Urobuchi and iirc Meteo have used them) to the verse

>Kaleidosticks? The hell is that?

The thing Prillya and Miyu use to transform into magical girls (Technically they first appear in Hollow Ataraxia iirc, where Rin and Luvia use them). They are Mystic Codes crafted by Zelretch and have multiple abilities, but the most important one is that they can provide the user with infinite mana from parallel worlds and can also boost the user's parameters by manipulating their Od. Illya also used it to overpower a weakened Enuma Elish. This should realistically let them use Zel's Ether Canons much more often than he could because of Yu's regeneration

>Arc when she was nerfed to a god was still compared to Amaterasu (galaxy class)

This is not how it works. Raw power is irrelevant here, you could be capable of destroying an infinite universe but not be galaxy class. Amaterasu only scales up because multiple characters have made the Amaterasu=Vairocana, otherwise I will not be making Amaterasu>Astarte arguments

As it stands Arc is a planetary spirit, so she should not be able to brute force her way through coceptual defense of Astarte. Maybe she can do it if she uses the Moon Cell (Since it can cover the entire Milky Way with its jamming signal) to classify herself as a galaxy class entity, but she is strictly a planet class entity without i

>She has a small chance as an enshrined god and being restricted by a Servant class

First, Arc was not enshrined. Getting enshrined essentially means becoming of Earth due to worship, even aliens are not free from this. Arc is already of the Earth so she is not really getting enshrined by a single guy (even if Earthlings can get enshrined, such as the Mesopotamians)

Second, the chance is still miniscule at best. You cannot argue that Arc would have been under 10% power even when nerfed by Gatou

>And yes, Extra confirms that True Ancestors>gods, as it says gods are a downgrade.

This is because Gods would be inherently lower on the ladder because of enshrinement.

There is also a heavy chance of some kind of primordials gods having shaped the solar system (if the regular universe has the same origins as the Servant Universe, of course) before being deified and passing down their Authorities (one of which could have resulted in Ea) though this is just a theory so take it with a grain of salt

>Tsukihime and Extraverse worlds =/= Fate worlds.

They are still a part of the same time tree, to the point of Extraverse being reachable in FGO. Hell, Zepar managed to essentially replace FGO Kiara with her CCC self before she mindfucked him

>Keep in mind that I scale Roa and True Ancestors astronomically beyond 99% of Servants, bar the top ones. If it shredded him, then I see it being a threat.

Yeah, no. Roa doesn't really have any good feats beyond getting shredded by 10% Arc. He is a good mage, I suppose, but Medea could pull off the same thing Roa did at the school since she is a better mage than him overall. He will win against her because his reality marble is broken, but beyond zapping things with really powerful lightning I am not sure what can he really do in terms of hax (beyond his eyes as SHIKI). Medea emulating True Magic is honestly more impressive. Like, scaling from Altrouge is good, but we have no idea how strong she is either (beyond surpassing Brunestud in a way after acquiring PM) or how Roa went about fighting her

True Ancestors are featless beyond Arc (who is an outlier), but if they are anywhere as powerful as Hinako (who was mistaken as one) then I'd agree that they are above most Servants

>It wasn't meant to display superiority over Arc. In the same statement, it says Berserker Arcueid is no longer the strongest in the Moon Cell (meaning she is the strongest outside of it) because the Moon Cell can amp entities inside of it beyond their natural existence, and the fact that it nerfed Servant Arc in the war.

Technically speaking Arc would also be buffed, since the Moon Cell amps uber conceptual entities such as gods (which is one of their weaknesses, since they are mostly concepts which makes theam vulnerable against Velber) so Arc should also be amped even if she got degraded to a god

>So yeah, a full power Arc unrestrained by anything is out of Amaterasu's league (mostly due to hax though).

I still disagree with this. Both of us are making a lot of guesses here, as for example exactly how much Arc got nerfed and how big were her chances against Ama

Do also note, that depending on the exact Age during which Amaterasu dragged us to, she could have very easily been nerfed as well due to possibly being a Divine Spirit instead of a proper god

>What does it do?

It lets her regenerate, with said regeneration being heavily implied to be able to ignore Gae Bolg's anti-healing effect (something which only the Jabberwocky was shown as being capable of doing iirc). She was also mistaken for a True Ancestor, but was said to be a different type of elemental

The major theories are that she is either a member of Brunestud's race (She was referred to as "The last flower of the Moon") or a low level Xian, which is essentially a Taoist Buddha. I've been told that the Xian thing was confirmed, and that Urobuchi apparently wanted to use one as a Servant when writing Zero but got shot down by Nasu because it would break the story, but I did not really get a source on that so take it with a grain of salt (Even if the guy that told me is generally on point for most Nasu lore). Another thing that I was told is that top class Xians are apparently like Void Shiki, essentially being avatars of Wuji (Which is what Nasu's Root is based on, even if it is named after the Akashic Records) so that's a thing.

I really need to go around learning some eastern philosophy considering how much both Nasu and Masada love to use it

Oh yeah, two more things

First, the Servant could technically go the Goetia way of destroying history and becoming the planet (Since they would have Solomon) or the Kiara way of becoming the planet's brain and gaining dominion over it. Both of these should technically erase Archetype completely, since iirc Goetia's plan in specific involved burning the entire time tree down instead of a single timeline

Second, as I was reading about Wuji I stumbled on something interesting called Taiji, which is what Shinza's Taikyoku was based on(iirc Taiji was also used as a synonym for it). It is supposed to be the ""Supreme Ultimate" state of undifferentiated absolute and infinite potential, the oneness before duality, from which Yin and Yang originate". Considering that this lines up quite well with the explanation of Taikyoku, would this constitute Hadou Gods as being able to manipulate Platonic concepts or not?

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zgtfreak

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@mrballins: There is a difference between the source of your life being cut off and being destroyed. Pretty much all life except humans in Notes died out with the planet, and humans hanged around probably because they are connected to Gaia instead of Alaya

No, there is no difference. What? Humans died out because the planet became toxic and couldn't produce life for humans to live on. This is irrelevant to Arc. She is the will of the planet, not the planet itself. Saying she will die if it does is complete headcanon.

While i agree with this, until Nasu properly retcons it (Since as it stands now, a proper god would shit on everything in Notes because they are made out entirely out of True Ether) we have to use what we have

Nerfed god Arc is already compared to a Divine Spirit, so this True Ether weakness doesn't apply to her. Not to mention it actually has to touch the Type, assuming it hits. But True Ether isn't effecting Arc based off comparing her to Amaterasu. And even if it did and it hit her, she can abandon and reinvent her body.

Not really, there are clear limits, but it should work for physical hits.

I doubt it. And not if those hits come from something conceptually superior to gods.

The only thing that TYPEs have over gods is a few statements and hype. I would adore nothing more than for ORT to appear and start kicking shit on the Fate side with the only thing that could stop him being Grand Saber Ado Edem, but TYPEs only get powerscaling from other characters due to statements since they are not present.

We are not talking about a random Type. We are talking about Arcueid, whose Extraverse statements and scaling put her above the verse. She would have all hax of the Moon Cell, including BB and Gilgamesh's, along with her own if she is unrestricted, since the entire Moon Cell is a mere part of her. Extraverse Red Arcueid alone solos the verse mid to low-diff.

The thing Prillya and Miyu use to transform into magical girls

You actually mentioned the worst thing in all of the Nasuverse. Going to pretend I didn't hear this.

(Technically they first appear in Hollow Ataraxia iirc, where Rin and Luvia use them). They are Mystic Codes crafted by Zelretch and have multiple abilities, but the most important one is that they can provide the user with infinite mana from parallel worlds and can also boost the user's parameters by manipulating their Od.

Oh, ok. Then that should be enough to sustain them. Too bad they die anyway.

This is not how it works. Raw power is irrelevant here, you could be capable of destroying an infinite universe but not be galaxy class. Amaterasu only scales up because multiple characters have made the Amaterasu=Vairocana, otherwise I will not be making Amaterasu>Astarte arguments

As it stands Arc is a planetary spirit, so she should not be able to brute force her way through coceptual defense of Astarte. Maybe she can do it if she uses the Moon Cell (Since it can cover the entire Milky Way with its jamming signal) to classify herself as a galaxy class entity, but she is strictly a planet class entity without it

*Facepalm* Conceptual advantages do not apply to Arc because she already has a small chance at defeating Amaterasu when she is nerfed as an enshrined god.

First, Arc was not enshrined. Getting enshrined essentially means becoming of Earth due to worship, even aliens are not free from this. Arc is already of the Earth so she is not really getting enshrined by a single guy (even if Earthlings can get enshrined, such as the Mesopotamians)

She was on that level. Gatou's worship specifically did that to her.

Second, the chance is still miniscule at best. You cannot argue that Arc would have been under 10% power even when nerfed by Gatou

Considering her entire existence dropped from a First Class True Ancestor down to a god, then yeah I can. And you keep ignoring unrestricted Extraverse Archetype-Earth godstomping Amaterasu with hax.

This is because Gods would be inherently lower on the ladder because of enshrinement.

The gods have inferior feats and scaling to First Class True Ancestors period. The gods can have difficulty with Servants. True Ancestors are stated to be far beyond the DAAs (minus the few obvious ones), who are equal to Servants. And Zelretch needed power from across the multiverse to fight a First Class True Ancestor, who is only equal to Red Arcueid. Meanwhile with gods:

Loading Video...

Complete fodder. Roa one shots.

They are still a part of the same time tree, to the point of Extraverse being reachable in FGO. Hell, Zepar managed to essentially replace FGO Kiara with her CCC self before she mindfucked him

And? Their histories are still different.

Yeah, no. Roa doesn't really have any good feats beyond getting shredded by 10% Arc. He is a good mage, I suppose, but Medea could pull off the same thing Roa did at the school since she is a better mage than him overall. He will win against her because his reality marble is broken, but beyond zapping things with really powerful lightning I am not sure what can he really do in terms of hax (beyond his eyes as SHIKI). Medea emulating True Magic is honestly more impressive. Like, scaling from Altrouge is good, but we have no idea how strong she is either (beyond surpassing Brunestud in a way after acquiring PM) or how Roa went about fighting her

DAAs are stated to be children before the True Ancestors by Sion, who would know about this stuff. Also, the title of Brunestud is reserved for True Ancestors who are at least relatively close to Type-Moon in power:

Another name for the organism that was used as the template for the True Ancestors. Also known as the Crimson Moon Brunestud.

After he vanished, individuals close to him in power started being honored with the title of Brunestud.

However, in the long history of the True Ancestors, only two have ever received the name.

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Altrouge_Brunestud#References

Altrouge is one of these two, with the other being obvious. So Roa defeated someone in the same general league as Type-Moon, who I need not explain why he is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Servants.

As for how Roa fought her... It flat out states he is more powerful than her:

Altrouge set out to put the newcomer Dead Apostle in his place, but by that time Roa was already powerful enough to defeat her instead. Of course, it was only natural. Not only was Roa an excellent magus in his own right, but he was able to wield the power of the strongest True Ancestor, Arcueid, at the same time.

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Roa_Valdamjong#References

So uh... Roa claps Servants.

Technically speaking Arc would also be buffed, since the Moon Cell amps uber conceptual entities such as gods (which is one of their weaknesses, since they are mostly concepts which makes theam vulnerable against Velber) so Arc should also be amped even if she got degraded to a god

...

She was flat out stated to be nerfed. It said the Moon Cell can (not always will) amp gods depending on their information and how powerful people regard them as. And even in the Moon Cell, gods are stated to be below True Ancestors. Even if her god form is amped (it isn't), it is still stated to be beneath her normal existence (a True Ancestor).

I still disagree with this. Both of us are making a lot of guesses here, as for example exactly how much Arc got nerfed and how big were her chances against Ama

Do also note, that depending on the exact Age during which Amaterasu dragged us to, she could have very easily been nerfed as well due to possibly being a Divine Spirit instead of a proper god

Arcueid normally is stated to be the strongest outside of the Moon Cell since she is "No longer the strongest" in the Moon Cell due to the massive nerfs her Servant form has and all the amps gods get. So Arcueid when not getting nerfed as a Servant by the Moon Cell making Gatou's information (delusions) true is flat out stated to be>Amaterasu. It makes sense too. Amaterasu doesn't even have a 100% chance against one of the weakest versions of Arc. Amaterasu's chances against a dual-Type Arcueid at full power with all the hax of the Moon Cell (along with her own) at her disposal are in the negatives. To say otherwise is quite frankly... unfounded wank. Especially since the only hax we know that Amaterasu has is bypassing causality, which even Gilgamesh can do. Otherwise, she has zero hax to contend with Arcueid at her best. Horrible mismatch.

It lets her regenerate, with said regeneration being heavily implied to be able to ignore Gae Bolg's anti-healing effect (something which only the Jabberwocky was shown as being capable of doing iirc). She was also mistaken for a True Ancestor, but was said to be a different type of elemental

That sounds like immunity to anti-regeneration, rather than uber regeneration. Can she regenerate from full body destruction?

The major theories are that she is either a member of Brunestud's race (She was referred to as "The last flower of the Moon")

That sounds OP.

or a low level Xian, which is essentially a Taoist Buddha.

Oh... Never mind...

Another thing that I was told is that top class Xians are apparently like Void Shiki, essentially being avatars of Wuji (Which is what Nasu's Root is based on, even if it is named after the Akashic Records) so that's a thing.

The same as Void Shiki in terms of being an avatar. But only one is omnipotent. Being avatars of Wuji (which we know little about) means nothing against Arc.

Oh yeah, two more things

First, the Servant could technically go the Goetia way of destroying history and becoming the planet (Since they would have Solomon) or the Kiara way of becoming the planet's brain and gaining dominion over it. Both of these should technically erase Archetype completely, since iirc Goetia's plan in specific involved burning the entire time tree down instead of a single timeline

Archetype-Earth is both Type-Earth and Type-Moon since she is Type-Moon's daughter and has all of his Type powers. Hell, her Type-Moon status is referenced way more than her Archetype-Earth status. Removing her as Archetype-Earth doesn't change the fact that she is still Type-Moon. And even her non-Extraverse self scales to Zelretch and Crimson Moon, who have a feat way above all of non-Extraverse. She still one shots.

Also, I know this battle banned Extraverse, but this is more of just talking about something from a lore standpoint. I can see Goetia burning down the time tree gaining him some very unwanted attention from Extraverse if he was successful, as burning it down still won't effect the Moon Cell or its entities. So if he was successful, I can see CCC Gilgamesh and Extraverse Arcueid getting pissed and... thinking him out of existence. So he seems doomed from the start, unless he wasn't going to effect Extraverse.

Second, as I was reading about Wuji I stumbled on something interesting called Taiji, which is what Shinza's Taikyoku was based on(iirc Taiji was also used as a synonym for it). It is supposed to be the ""Supreme Ultimate" state of undifferentiated absolute and infinite potential, the oneness before duality, from which Yin and Yang originate". Considering that this lines up quite well with the explanation of Taikyoku, would this constitute Hadou Gods as being able to manipulate Platonic concepts or not?

Depends. Fictions can heavily distort real life myths and religions. The fact that Hadou gods can get negged by more Taikyoko or appearing as software to Naraka makes me believe that they can't. But this is heavy derailment. Do you have a Discord? Some Vine people wanted you to join us on there.

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MrBallins

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#28  Edited By MrBallins

@zgtfreak: >What? Humans died out because the planet became toxic and couldn't produce life for humans to live on.

Technically speaking they did not die out as much as they evolved. And there is still the fact that all life which was a part of the planet (aka not humans) still died out with the planet

>Nerfed god Arc is already compared to a Divine Spirit, so this True Ether weakness doesn't apply to her.

This is not how this works. The White Titan was outright stated to be weaker than Amaterasu yet it still wins because of the advantage it has

>*Facepalm* Conceptual advantages do not apply to Arc because she already has a small chance at defeating Amaterasu when she is nerfed as an enshrined god.

This has nothing to do with it though. Being capable of defeating a telepath does not make you a telepath, just because she can defeat a cosmic entity does not make her one on a conceptual level. Again, it is like the White Titan vs Ama, Ama is stronger but would still lose because the White Titan counters her

>Considering her entire existence dropped from a First Class True Ancestor down to a god, then yeah I can. And you keep ignoring unrestricted Extraverse Archetype-Earth godstomping Amaterasu with hax.

Discussing this point seems pointless since neither of us is willing to concede, so lets drop it before it turns into an endless back and forward

>True Ancestors are stated to be far beyond the DAAs (minus the few obvious ones), who are equal to Servants

DAAs being equal to Servants is a bullshit statement because Servants have massively varying degrees of power, from legit god killers such as Gil to barely above average humans such as Mata Hari

>Meanwhile with gods:

Just to note, but this version of Ishtar was neither a proper Divine Spirit nor a Goddess, she is heavily restricted to the point of only being comparable to Servant Enkidu. Like, other than Tiamat none of the goddesses in Babylonia are anywhere near their peak. Nasu himself mentioned that if Ishtar was not in Rin's body we would have died the first time we met her

>As for how Roa fought her... It flat out states he is more powerful than her:

Sorry, but scaling only gets him so far. Roa has no mentioned hax or abilities that would put him on the level of top tier Servants such as Karna, and his magecraft is nowhere impressive enough to let him get past high level MR from what has been displayed. Maybe you can make a case for Prime Roa, but he is featless

>Even if her god form is amped (it isn't), it is still stated to be beneath her normal existence (a True Ancestor).

Her normal existence would technically be Red Arc though, wouldn't it? If she was still roughly comparable to 10% or more percent of her power with the boost she would still be beneath her normal existence since she would be restricted

>Amaterasu doesn't even have a 100% chance against one of the weakest versions of Arc

She actually does, that version of Arc only gets a sliver of a chance by lowering Ama to a 6th of her full power, something that she can do only on the Moon. If the fight is not there then Blood Sisters (or at least the Moon version) goes out of the window. I do agree that Archetype will stomp with it on though

>Can she regenerate from full body destruction?

That's literary her NP

"A drastic move that uses the caster’s flesh as a catalyst, pushing their body past its limits in order to expend large amounts of magical energy. It releases in the form of a cursed malediction that causes severe weather. Afterwards, the sacrificed flesh is restored. One could say the combined energy from nature and spiritual core act as the Elemental race’s form of suicide attack."

Note, even if it refers to it as a suicide attack she just regens back from it

>The same as Void Shiki in terms of being an avatar. But only one is omnipotent

Void is not omnipotent, considering that she admits to not being capable of dealing with Primate Murder in the KnK event(I sent you the screencaps in another thread iirc). If it is about her being stated as omnipotent, I want to see the original Japanese word used for it since Nasu uses omnipotence in a very specific way that I already mentioned, so it might not translate properly to our Western definition of it

>Being avatars of Wuji (which we know little about) means nothing against Arc.

Wuji would refer to the Root most likely. We literary know nothing about Nasu's depiction of Xians (maybe Yu, if the Xian theory turns out to be true) but the chances of them being like Void or Manaka is a thing

>I can see Goetia burning down the time tree gaining him some very unwanted attention from Extraverse if he was successful, as burning it down still won't effect the Moon Cell or its entities.

Actually, Goetia may be above the Moon Cell. FGO Kiara admits to him being stronger than her, and I found this quote recently when going through her profile

"Kiara discovered her most excellent self among the many parallel worlds and fused with it."

This seems to imply that she has the powers of CCC Kiara in addition to her own, which makes sense since her Beast version's profile refers to her as the main antagonist of CCC (and we know that this does not refer to the event but to the game, since all entries referring to the event use SE.RA.PH)

"The true boss of “Fate/EXTRA CCC”.

Over there, she used B B to absorb the Mooncell and metamorphose into a genuine demon."

So yeah, wanna hear your thoughts on this

>Gilgamesh

Probably isn't even in the same Universe of Awareness as him, considering that he left with Hakuno on space adventures. I'd assume that other species also have their own universes just like humans

>Do you have a Discord? Some Vine people wanted you to join us on there.

Oh yeah, I remember this. Can you give me a link? Or is the one in the group chat still working?

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zgtfreak

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@mrballins: Technically speaking they did not die out as much as they evolved. And there is still the fact that all life which was a part of the planet (aka not humans) still died out with the planet

Yes, but they needed to evolve via tech to survive and aren't normal humans anymore.

This is not how this works. The White Titan was outright stated to be weaker than Amaterasu yet it still wins because of the advantage it has

How is Sefar relevant to anything? Arc's statement alone proves conceptual advantages do not apply to her.

This has nothing to do with it though. Being capable of defeating a telepath does not make you a telepath, just because she can defeat a cosmic entity does not make her one on a conceptual level.

It means Arc does not fall under the conceptual advantage crap because Amaterasu doesn't even have a 100% chance against god Arc, let alone normal True Ancestor Arc.

Again, it is like the White Titan vs Ama, Ama is stronger but would still lose because the White Titan counters her

And? Currently, no one in the Nasuverse has counters for Extraverse Arcueid.

DAAs being equal to Servants is a bullshit statement because Servants have massively varying degrees of power, from legit god killers such as Gil to barely above average humans such as Mata Hari

Clearly it refers to average Servants. Not exceptionally strong or weak.

Just to note, but this version of Ishtar was neither a proper Divine Spirit nor a Goddess, she is heavily restricted to the point of only being comparable to Servant Enkidu. Like, other than Tiamat none of the goddesses in Babylonia are anywhere near their peak. Nasu himself mentioned that if Ishtar was not in Rin's body we would have died the first time we met her

How nerfed? Because getting OHKO'ed by an average Servant is meme-tier bad.

Sorry, but scaling only gets him so far. Roa has no mentioned hax or abilities that would put him on the level of top tier Servants such as Karna

I never compared him to top-tier Servants. But... if we take the Altrouge is vaguely in the same league (despite clearly being weaker still) as Type-Moon, and then Roa overpowers and defeats her, then yeah, Roa is stomping top-tier Servants, unless they have the hax to contend. If we don't use that statement, I'd still put him above high-tiers generally, but not top-tier level.

and his magecraft is nowhere impressive enough to let him get past high level MR from what has been displayed. Maybe you can make a case for Prime Roa, but he is featless

Scaling above almost all DAAs and TAs is enough. Also I am pretty sure Tsukihime Roa = Prime Roa, as he fully incarnated into SHIKI to the point his true body manifested.

Her normal existence would technically be Red Arc though, wouldn't it? If she was still roughly comparable to 10% or more percent of her power with the boost she would still be beneath her normal existence since she would be restricted

By regular existence I mean her as what she actually is (a True Ancestor), which even 10% Arcueid was. Hell, below 10% Arc was still stomping hyper prepped Roa (her power was draining rapidly during the fight).

She actually does, that version of Arc only gets a sliver of a chance by lowering Ama to a 6th of her full power

Then that's not 100%.

"A drastic move that uses the caster’s flesh as a catalyst, pushing their body past its limits in order to expend large amounts of magical energy. It releases in the form of a cursed malediction that causes severe weather. Afterwards, the sacrificed flesh is restored. One could say the combined energy from nature and spiritual core act as the Elemental race’s form of suicide attack."

Note, even if it refers to it as a suicide attack she just regens back from it

This is a stalemate then since this isn't Extraverse Arc. She can't kill the Servant because of that, and they have no way in hell of killing her. Worst comes to worst, she blows up Earth and lets them rot in space while she flies to the Moon and chills.

Void is not omnipotent, considering that she admits to not being capable of dealing with Primate Murder in the KnK event(I sent you the screencaps in another thread iirc). If it is about her being stated as omnipotent, I want to see the original Japanese word used for it since Nasu uses omnipotence in a very specific way that I already mentioned, so it might not translate properly to our Western definition of it

Since I addressed this to you in Discord, I'm skipping this.

Wuji would refer to the Root most likely. We literary know nothing about Nasu's depiction of Xians (maybe Yu, if the Xian theory turns out to be true) but the chances of them being like Void or Manaka is a thing

Well let's not assume until we know.

Actually, Goetia may be above the Moon Cell. FGO Kiara admits to him being stronger than her, and I found this quote recently when going through her profile

"Kiara discovered her most excellent self among the many parallel worlds and fused with it."

This seems to imply that she has the powers of CCC Kiara in addition to her own, which makes sense since her Beast version's profile refers to her as the main antagonist of CCC (and we know that this does not refer to the event but to the game, since all entries referring to the event use SE.RA.PH)

"The true boss of “Fate/EXTRA CCC”.

Over there, she used B B to absorb the Mooncell and metamorphose into a genuine demon."

So yeah, wanna hear your thoughts on this

GO Kiara becoming CCC Kiara seemed to be a metaphor for her becoming like CCC Kiara. But I will check it out. Regardless, she seems to not be connected to the Moon Cell in GO, which is where the vast majority of her power comes from.

Probably isn't even in the same Universe of Awareness as him, considering that he left with Hakuno on space adventures. I'd assume that other species also have their own universes just like humans

Good point; but Extraverse Arcueid is still a problem. But she may be too busy on Earth with Tohno and stuff to care or notice.

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character 2 is immune to death and hax is near if not equal to the composite hax of the composite servants even the highest tier ones. character 2 wins 3.8/5

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Nervedamage

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#31  Edited By Nervedamage
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I would like to engage in this convo, with what I know so far

I can see how composite could win in a landslide, but they must have a counter to her marble phantasma reality-warping, she's practically a reality warper. Gilgamesh will have plenty of kits to stop her, with gae bolg she won't be able to regen and the god slayer scythe that negs regen aswell. She has no answer to none of Gil's kit's so there's that. I believe the composite servants can give her a run for her money. But nothing is stopping her from conceptually stopping any attacks heading her way if she can see it that's where the gae bolg comes in hand because it can redirect itself. Arthur have a good counter against her because she's as a whole have better stats than all of the servants but the servants have more hax it's also a one-on-one since it's composite and not a team. Shiki being a part of this seals the deal as well. Yes as base form, she has it rough against versatility and that's what composite has, she already has a bad match up with Gilg. She even has more of a tough match against not just his ability but many others. I can go on for days but there is too much composite can do, bravery negs TP, God Hand being an extra-life, etc, etc. If the fight drags out, or if they fail in taking her out for good, it's curtains for them. Because; once she understands every and each of the servants' abilities and weapons she will be conceptually immune to that. Enuma Elish will be their only shot left.

They have no choice but to try and blitz her with the most powerful one-shot hax they have previously mentioned. They won't be able to pin her down.

Once she does Blut Die Schwester, a chunk of their original stats will be halved, if she so wants to, no matter if they are immune to stat change or not, negging half if not most of the composites. She's platonic also, she's above moon cell anything the composite is at all close to. Also, she's gonna be immune to death afterward since they are much weaker now. a simple hand gesture will be the end of them.

Also, base Arc is way above Amaterasu and Velber Altera > Altera = BB < because of divinity> CCC Gilg > almost half the servants' rosters.

Like I said, if Archetype Earth doesn't die from hax spam or adapt mid-combat, all it takes is a single hand gesture and dropping the moon on them. She is beyond concept from what I heard.

I don't know my stuff so correct me if I'm wrong.

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MrBallins

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@zgtfreak:>Yes, but they needed to evolve via tech to survive and aren't normal humans anymore.

That does not exactly matter, human is not a matter of species, since Notes also refers to A-Rays as humanity as well. They are all human, even if they are evolved

And iirc the Ether Liners natrually evolved from Liners, they did not use tech

>Arc's statement alone proves conceptual advantages do not apply to her.

In what way? Are you talking about the "strongest" statement? Because that is incredibly vague and speaks nothing about conceptual advantages. Again, Ama is stronger than Sefar but would still lose

>Clearly it refers to average Servants. Not exceptionally strong or weak.

Most of the Servants that we have good feats for are not average though. Like, Robin would be average, Cu is a top Servant

>How nerfed? Because getting OHKO'ed by an average Servant is meme-tier bad.

She lost most of her authority, she was incarnated into a Servant container and whatever authority she had remaining could only be used through gems

Also, she did not get KO'd, night started falling and she switched to Eresh which is what put her down. There is also the fact that Ishtar was not really going for the kill in that fight

>But... if we take the Altrouge is vaguely in the same league (despite clearly being weaker still) as Type-Moon

This is completely wrong

First, Altrouge was mentioned to only reach that level after getting Primate Murder, so we can assume that PM is doing the heavy lifting

Second, she was comparable to TM in a way, we do not know what area she is equal to him but it most likely refers to human killing speed

>Also I am pretty sure Tsukihime Roa = Prime Roa, as he fully incarnated into SHIKI to the point his true body manifested.

Iirc Tsuki Roa still lacked a ton of his magecraft knowledge, so even if he had properly incarnated he was still not at his peak. If he was he probably would not have needed that much prep for 10% Arc

Also, I think that he could not use him Reality Marble, which is a game-changer for him

>By regular existence I mean her as what she actually is (a True Ancestor), which even 10% Arcueid was. Hell, below 10% Arc was still stomping hyper prepped Roa (her power was draining rapidly during the fight).

I will be honest here, that whole fight was... not that impressive from a hax standpoint for Roa in specific. He was just waiting for her to get weaker while bombarding her with spells from what I recall, nothing too impressive even when compared to Servants. Hell, Medea's territory was quite similar to his if memory serves correct, except that it let her emulate True Magic

>Then that's not 100%.

That is because Arc has a Moon-only ability that she can use to give herself a shot, on Earth this is an utter stomp in Ama's favour if we use Zerker Arc

>She can't kill the Servant because of that, and they have no way in hell of killing her. Worst comes to worst, she blows up Earth and lets them rot in space while she flies to the Moon and chills.

Doesn't she require the Earth to purge her body from concepts? I recall her making a new body out of the Earth or something like that. And the Servant can come back either with Gil's ship or GodJuna's Vimana which was stated as being capable of space travel

Also, nothing even hints at her being capable of destroying the Earth, since the "cannot be destroyed by anything of Earth" rule would still apply

Oh yeah, one more thing, but Archetype may only be Crimson Moon level.

"For just a second, it is possible to catch a glimpse of the vampire princess Arcueid's true power. The phantom that appears behind her back is her original form. Its appearance, abilities, and very thoughts could be called the Crimson Moon."

-Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual - Dictionary: Shall We Play Around Some? [Technique name]

I also think that, when she was referred as the equal of Crimson Moon, the background CG was that of Archetype instead of regular Arc. Also, I could not find any statements about Red Arc being equal to Brunestud

>Good point; but Extraverse Arcueid is still a problem. But she may be too busy on Earth with Tohno and stuff to care or notice.

Extraverse Arc may not be able to reach him, since there is a small chance of his Reality Marble existing outside of both Universes (not 100% sure about that) so she may lack a way to get to it. Also, technically speaking Arc may have never beeen born after he burned history, so there's that

@nervedamage: >but they must have a counter to her marble phantasma reality-warping, she's practically a reality warper

Marble Phantasm does not directly work on humans iirc, since it affects Gaia's stuff. Also, Fragarach can counter it iirc and the Servant should have better regen than Arc (discounting her body reinvention)

>Once she does Blut Die Schwester, a chunk of their original stats will be halved

Pretty sure that BDS nerfs stats to 1/6 of their original but that only works when she is on the Moon while on the Earth it is just a type of terraforming

"Although considered a Noble Phantasm, this power is more akin to a special quality inherent to her very being. As an extension of the mother Earth, her very touch transform the area around her into a part of the Earth's environment (a process known as terraforming). However, as the Moon Cell is bound by the physical attributes of the moon, this process introduces incredible levels of gravitational stress on the system and anyone within its event horizon will suffer gravity six times normal level."

>a simple hand gesture will be the end of them.

Regular Arc lacks a way to get past Yu's regen, so that is not happening. Also, Natural Born Killers would make this a 200 vs 1 since the Servant will have pretty much infinite magical energy

>Also, base Arc is way above Amaterasu and Velber Altera > Altera = BB < because of divinity> CCC Gilg > almost half the servants' rosters.

This is a bad scaling for several reason.

First, the Gods>Servants scaling is not absolute.

Second, the TYPEs>Gods scaling is not a scaling of raw power as recent information has hinted, but instead a conceptual thing where gods, as entities that have been enshrined as concepts of the planet, are incapable of going against it. As such, planet class entities like Ultimate Ones should have absolute superiority over an enshrined god regardless of strength. This is part of the reason why the Alien God in FGO is such a big deal, because they are not enshrined

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Phantasial

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@mrballins: grands? sure. counter guardians? no. as far as I remember, artoria is contracted to gaia, not alaya.

this convo is prolonged. could go either way

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The Beast Servants or in general some of the high tier are enough for Archetype Earth.

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#36  Edited By GaRbS

@phantasial Artoria is not contracted to "Gaia" at all. The contract she made with the World is the same kind EMIYA did, that is, the collective unconscious of mankind (the Counter Force of humanity, Alaya).

The only connections Artoria has to the planet are wielding Excalibur, which was forged by the Earth to defend itself against foreign enemies that threaten it, and having dragon blood inside her. Other than that she's still a Heroic Spirit, which are protectors of humanity.