Composite Dragonborn Runs A Gauntlet

@alphaq:

That seems fairly reasonable. I would question the extent that TLD can be scaled from Artorius's time magic since the quote you kindly provided seemed to imply that that it his specialty, though the feats you also provided of Artorius slowing time to an apparent standstill would be what I would assume TLD would be capable of anyway.

Artorius is a priest of Akatosh; dragons are the children of Akatosh. Akatosh is the God of time itself. The Last Dragonborn has the soul of a dragon, and is more powerful than all of them, has absorbed many of their souls, which includes their power and knowledge, and is more powerful than Alduin who is a god in his own right, and is the first-born of Akatosh.

So honestly, Artorius would be fodder for TLD in the grand scheme of things. There's no feasible argument that he would have more command over time than a demi-god who's speciality is time manipulation.

Just out of curiosity, what can TLD do in regards non-Thu'um magic? I seem to remember it was stated during the College questlines that he has extraordinary potential for magic and I assume he became stronger than any mage at the College seeing as he was made Archmaester and all.

Let me post below a couple of feats I recorded for him:

While tapping into the Eye of Magnus, the Thalmor agent Ancano erects a barrier so powerful that several of the College of Winterhold Master Mages, including the Arch-Mage Savos Aren, cannot break through. When The Last Dragonborn helps them, they finally break through. Then, when Savos confronts Ancano, it causes an explosion that knocks everybody out and kills Savos. Ancano erects another barrier, which nobody can get through.

“Ancano has done something to the Eye of Magnus, causing the orb to release incredible amounts of energy, and possibly putting the area in danger.”

https://youtu.be/yTlFNnMJHNY?t=37m28s

The Dragonborn fights through Labyrinthian. As he does, he encounters ghostly imprints, memories of six college mages from the past, one of which is Savos Aren. Their numbers are gradually whittled down and are struggling to proceed from the onset of their journey through Labyrinthian. Also, as you proceed through the labyrinth, the Dragon Priest Morokei will repeatedly drain your magicka and empower himself with it. Of the ghosts, only Savos Aren and two others are left before they fight Morokei. Two of the mages have been enthralled, and have trapped Morokei inside a magical barrier. After killing them, The Last Dragonborn fights and kills Morokei, who is wielding the Staff of Magnus. After the Dragonborn kills Morokei, it is revealed that it was Savos Aren who enthralled the Mages, his two friends.

Morokei: "Did he warn you that your own power would be your undoing? That it would only serve to strengthen me?”

https://youtu.be/hA37X274yNo?t=1m18s

Some information on the Staff of Magnus, aside from the fact it was used to siphon the power of an artifact capable of destroying the world.

“The Staff of Magnus, one of the elder artifacts of Tamriel, was a metaphysical battery of sorts for its creator, the Arch-Mage Magnus. When used, it regenerates both a mage's health and mystical energy at remarkable rates. In time, the Staff will abandon the mage who wields it before he or she becomes too powerful and upsets the mystical balance it is sworn to protect.”

“Ever hear of the Staff of Magnus? No offense, very few [race] kids your age have. It's this ancient relic that legend says can absorb a spell cast at it and give the spell's power to whoever holds it.”

“Be quiet, [race] fool, the Necromancers would not think at all about killing you just for mentioning the Staff of Magnus. Their most powerful mages are children compared to its power, and if they could possess it, surely they would rule [city name].”

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/staff-magnus

So basically, a dragon priest who is already a highly powerful mage and thu'um user, is now wielding a godly artifact that can suck you dry of magic. Yet, after being drained repeatedly, TLD fights through labyrinthian and kills Morokei.

As for the power of magic in ES, I've got a document going where I record impressive feats I find:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/179nCjmI92M8GRXnV0IKwtIFkvV0FVnyRJB5OS_R3lrE/edit?usp=sharing

If you go down to the bottom, the highest tier magic feats can be found.

I know he fought Miraak who partly accomplished his rupturing a part of Skyrim feat with non-Thu'um magic, while fighting that Dragon Priest guy...

That was pre-prime Miraak, as well. After that fight, Miraak spent 4,000 years growing in power and increasing his knowledge. The Dragonborn becomes more powerful than Miraak, and then after defeating him, additionally absorbs all of Miraak's power and knowledge. What that means is, you can effectively say TLD is more than twice as powerful as Miraak by his peak. For some perspective on what that means: that makes the Greybeards look like insects, for all intents and purposes.

Not in the traditional comic book sense, no. But that isn't proof by itself he would be blitzed by Wolverine. I think if we use common sense and look at what kind of character TLD is, what abilities he has at his disposal, and the feats of much lesser beings, we can safely deduce Wolverine wouldn't speedblitz him. It would be a ludicrous piece of writing to say the least.

In ES, we have people who can kill entire armies on their own or in small groups, outnumbered hundreds to one, we've got mages who can amplify their speed to levels where they can speedblitz enemies, who in turn can speedblitz other warriors. Also, as a vampire (and a particularly powerful one at that), TLD has superhuman physical stats at a base level, and vampires are capable of speedblitzing people.

If you add in the time manipulating, speed enhancing, and the feats of people who I cannot stress enough are insects compared to TLD, I can't see a feasible argument for Wolverine blitzing.

@jashugan:

seeing as how there were no more dragon born until the last one showed up and coincidentally that's the same time Alduin reawakened that's why he's the one that would defeat Alduin.

The Elder Scrolls, which are fragments of creation itself, which exist outside of time and space, and contain all possible timelines, past, present and future, had a prophecy written in them saying "The Last Dragonborn will fight Alduin when he returns." It wasn't just any Dragonborn whose destiny it was to fight Alduin, it was specifically the one you play in Skyrim.

Even you say that a Dragonborn could beat Alduin not only the last.

Could. But nobody else has such a feat, nobody else rose to the levels required to pull that off. He also defeats Miraak, who makes the Greybeards look like children, and outside of the Greybeards and a few other rare figures, nobody else is as powerful.

The three tongues helped him, I didn't say that they were the ones that defeated Alduin, they wouldn't be there if the last Dragonborn could've done it by himself.

He effectively did it by himself on the throat of the world, as mentioned before. They were needed to clear the soul-snare Alduin put over Sovngarde, but absolutely nowhere is it said they were needed to kill Alduin. Like I said, everyone makes a big deal out of how you're more powerful than Alduin and it was you who defeated him. There's no argument here. When Alduin loses in the first fight, he doesn't even mention Paarthurnax, he says "You [Dragonborn] have become powerful."

The last dragon born didn't conquer a country like talos. Even mithrak only cut off a small piece of an island and that's what his best feat is iirc.

Talos did that once he became a god. So excluding literal gods, no, TLD is the most powerful. Miraak's best feat is stomping pre-prime The Last Dragonborn.

Also, isn't it possible to render a Dragonborn/thuum user useless by destroying their throat?

It's possible to make most people useless by destroying their throat...

@i_like_swords: I know what the elder scrolls are.

I'm saying that before the last Dragonborn there weren't any Dragonborn in a long time so it had to be him.

Lore wise Was Alduin even awake when any other Dragonborn existed? I know he came before the Dragonborn.

People make a big deal of you defeating Alduin because you're the main character and Bethesda has to make you feel good.

Didn't Talos conquer Tamriel before becoming a god?

I don't recall a spell or shout that makes them superhumanly fast but assuming they have to cast a spell or a shout to do so like Slow Time then yes Wolverine could still absolutely blitz before they do so. He strikes faster than his opponents can register, appearing behind ninjas he detects across a street in a moment, turns and attacks gunmen before they got shots off from behind him, catches bullets and even has a feat where he kills four men before Mr. Sinister can finish saying a word. Like I said, if they turn into prolonged battles then he could take 2 and 3 but I don't see that happening in a majority when both characters could end the battle by the time he even opens his mouth.

@jashugan: The main point is The Last Dragonborn is irrefutably, at least, twice as powerful as Miraak, and multiple times more powerful than Paarthurnax, the Greybeards and the iteration of himself who defeated Alduin, once he has eaten Miraak's power and reached his peak.

Even if you argue Alduin > pre-prime Dragonborn, which there is no argument for to begin with, Miraak stomped that version of the Dragonborn when they first met. Then, after increasing in power, the Dragonborn defeats Miraak and absorbs his power. Huge power creep.

People make a big deal of you defeating Alduin because you're the main character and Bethesda has to make you feel good.

If that's your only contention, I'm going to go ahead and side with the numerous lines of dialogue in the game.

Yes, but he did it with an army.

@i_like_swords: He isn't twice as powerful as Miraak, or multiple times Paarthurnax. Every dragonborn is better at using the thuum than non-Dragonborns.

Alduin wasn't even at his most powerful both times he fought Dragonborn.

No one within the world of Skyrim even knew how the fight in Soverngard went on.

On topic of the fight, I don't see Dragon born making it past Kratos

@necromancer76: Then this means Dragonborns aren't as powerful as wankers want me to believe.

@jashugan: This literally makes no sense. We're talking about TLD, not Talos.

@necromancer76: TLD has no feats to put himself above Talos except for fighting Alduin who isn't even the most powerful form of Alduin.

@jashugan: ...

What feats does Tiber Septim have that put him above TLD? He's a nigh featless character.

Slow time gives him the leg up on those without super speed, and some sort of soul trap enchantment like mace of molag bal could probably kill wolverine. Luffy however is way too fast, strong and resilient. Dovahkiin stops at the Straw Hat

@shepardoakenprime:

I don't recall a spell or shout that makes them superhumanly fast

Fortify Agility is a spell that increases movement, perceptive and reactionary speeds, based on the power of the mage. A novice mage, someone who doesn't even study magic, was able to use one of these spells to speedblitz the fastest man known.

"Funcrazot" is so fast, that while fighting a guy who he was blocking the attacks of effortlessly, he was able to pick his pockets without him knowing it. Oin, the character with the fortify speed spell, fights the same sparring partner while Funcrazot watches. After the fight is over, Oin reveals he has picked the pocket of Funcrazot himself. The guy watching, who just previously, pickpocketed his sparring partner.

Oin agreed, and Yakin taught him the spell that would fire his impulses with magicka. Over several weeks, he learned how to supplant his own natural energy with the spell's, how to view the world at the slower pace a man with advanced agility sees. In time, Oin came upon Funcrazot in a field outside the city, doing his regular exercises. Oin cast his spell and approached the acrobat.

"Ah, behold the power of the amazing Funcrazot Priif," said the afore-mentioned, and prompted his sparring partner to attack him with his sword. He blocked the blows effortlessly with a shield for ten minutes, and then revealed afterwards that he had picketpocketed the young man's purse.

"Very impressive, Ser Priif. Now, behold the power of the remarkable Gazouf Mough," said Oin, and prompted Priif's sparring partner to attack him with his sword. After twenty minutes of blocking the man's blows with his shield, he revealed that he had pickpocketed Funcrazot Priif's purse.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/four-suitors-benitah

There's many shouts which increase speed, namely Whirlwind Sprint and Elemental Fury, and there's even a shout which makes other people faster.

Aside from that, as I mentioned before, we have people who take on armies single handedly, people who speedblitz groups of warriors, etc. There's no shortage of fast characters in ES. And they are all insects compared to the Last Dragonborn.

could end the battle by the time he even opens his mouth.

You haven't really proven he can do that, so I doubt it. TLD has no given upper limit for his speed (other than the fact ES is a world full of very fast people, and TLD is a god walking amongst insects) but the notion that his ceiling is getting speedblitzed by Wolverine is frankly ridiculous, given that he is supposed to be a massively superhuman, time manipulating demi-god, a type of character Wolverine does not typically speedblitz. There's no difference between slowing down time and having superhuman speed, and the Dragonborn has both at the same time.

Additionally, the Greybeards can straight up kill people just by whispering, not even Shouting. And they are many, many times less powerful than the Dragonborn. As soon as he says one word, Wolverine flies very far away. Even the lowliest Thu'um users, people hundreds of times less powerful than the Dragonborn, can knock down city walls which can withstand siege weaponry.

I'm going to finish the Dragonborn respect thread soon... it's clearly needed pretty badly.

@necromancer76: he conquered Tamriel

@jashugan: Yes... with an army. That’s a feat for his army.

Whereas TLD has single-handidly defeated armies.

@i_like_swords: Please tag me in said thread when it’s done :)

@necromancer76: Obviously he needs an army to clean up and control things, no one rules by themselves.

Tiber Septim didn't just use an army to conquer Tamriel. He also had Numidium to conquer the Summerset Isles

@jashugan: That’s not the point. The point is he had thousands of soldiers, the last remaining dragons, and the Numidium to defeat his enemies.

@necromancer76: yea, it's more impressive than what TLD did

@jashugan:

He isn't twice as powerful as Miraak, or multiple times Paarthurnax.

Yeah, he is. It's explicitly stated that when absorbing a dragon's soul, you gain their cumulative power and knowledge. He has defeated both Miraak and Paarth, proving he's more powerful than them, and then he absorbs their souls. The Dragonborn at a time when Miraak could stomp him was already twice as powerful as Paarthurnax, now imagine him with Miraak's soul; huge power creep.

Every dragonborn is better at using the thuum than non-Dragonborns.

Correct, and in this case, he's also more powerful.

Alduin wasn't even at his most powerful both times he fought Dragonborn.

Which is stated where, exactly?

No one within the world of Skyrim even knew how the fight in Soverngard went on.

The three tongues shouting "all hail the Dragonborn" and Tsun did, and they credit you with the victory. You have zero evidence anyone else is responsible for the victory. You also didn't counter the fact you solo Alduin on the throat of the world. If you're going to just ignore evidence, this debate is pointless.

So Tiber Septim's army is more impressive than TLD in your eyes? Great. Now back to the actual question: what has Tiber Septim—not his army—done that makes him a better fighter than TLD?

While that fortify agility spell seems impressive I'm still missing where he can cast said spell before Wolverine reaches him, and even just assuming he somehow could it doesn't seem to be as impressive as Logan's speed feats. For example he dashed past multiple soldiers and sliced their guns without them even knowing it which alone easily compares to picking ones pocket without them noticing.

I'm aware of Whirlwind Sprint but that's useless when he can only briefly dash forward, and again Elemental Fury doesn't look to be nearly as fast as Wolverine.

I'm not trying to say that the Dragonborn isn't powerful I'm fully aware that his spells and shouts would give these people a run for their money at the very least, but so far nothing has been provided that proves he can cast a spell or shout before Wolverine reaches him.

Before you say that I haven't proved Logan can reach him before TLD can attack can you post a feat that actually disproves it? Because the last feat I mentioned, where he kills 4 men before someone can finish a word, pretty much does prove it. You provided a spell that increases his speed (to an unknown amount) but he needs to cast it first, he needs to shout in order to slow time and I still have yet to believe that he can before a blitz. Proof that he automatically has superhuman speed would be nice, but still does he have a feat similar to Wolverine being able to dodge bullets?

Again I'm not questioning the power behind his shouts, I'm questioning whether or not he can pull one off in time because him being able to bfr Wolverine with a mere whisper means nothing if he can't do it in time.

Cool, I'm surprised he doesn't have one already considering how popular the game is.

@necromancer76: I'm not sure what TLD has done to make him good fighter in the first place, I played Skyrim. He was heavily unskilled.

@i_like_swords:The fact that Alduin had to keep eating soul to get more powerful showed he wasn't at his best.

Those ancient heroes were screaming your name because you're playing a Bethesda game and they must make the player feel good. Funny how they help you yet don't feel like taking any credit at all.

The twice stuff is what you came up with.

You didn't answer my question: what has Tiber Septim done to place him above TLD?

And as for your statement: the only way you could come to such a conclusion is either you didn't get far enough or you weren't skilled at the game. I'd recommend reading up on the shouts first, and then going into magic and combat to get a sense of his power level.

@i_like_swords

That seems fairly reasonable. I would question the extent that TLD can be scaled from Artorius's time magic since the quote you kindly provided seemed to imply that that it his specialty, though the feats you also provided of Artorius slowing time to an apparent standstill would be what I would assume TLD would be capable of anyway.

Artorius is a priest of Akatosh; dragons are the children of Akatosh. Akatosh is the God of time itself. The Last Dragonborn has the soul of a dragon, and is more powerful than all of them, has absorbed many of their souls, which includes their power and knowledge, and is more powerful than Alduin who is a god in his own right, and is the first-born of Akatosh.

So honestly, Artorius would be fodder for TLD in the grand scheme of things. There's no feasible argument that he would have more command over time than a demi-god who's speciality is time manipulation.

Problem is is that there is no direct relationship between power and cosmic significance and tax manipulation. For all we know Artorius figured out some magic no one else understands, making his ability unique. For all we know he has some special ability himself, or went through some unique process. Maybe Akatosh favored him for whatever reason and decided to give him extra power, abilities or knowledge. We simply don't know. If TLD was confirmed to be Artorius 2.0, superior in every way, we could say that he can scale off all his feats but right now we can't. Hell, even among Thu'um users, different users have different aptitudes for different Shouts so TLD is not even confirmed to be superior in every Shout, never mind that they're using broadly different magic systems.

Kind of a weakness of a character who relies on status/hype/significance when scaling. TLD could certainly be said to be > Artorius but when it gets into the specifics of his abilities you can't scale off non-fodder for any particular area. Which sorta leaves him empty handed in every area, since if we say he's faster than a guy he defeated then we could easily say that he won by virtue of another attribute, like strength. But simultaneously we could say he defeated strong opponents via speed, or any other attribute. So he can't really counter specific attributes just be being in at least some way better than someone who could because they have specific feats.

Let me post below a couple of feats I recorded for him:

While tapping into the Eye of Magnus, the Thalmor agent Ancano erects a barrier so powerful that several of the College of Winterhold Master Mages, including the Arch-Mage Savos Aren, cannot break through. When The Last Dragonborn helps them, they finally break through. Then, when Savos confronts Ancano, it causes an explosion that knocks everybody out and kills Savos. Ancano erects another barrier, which nobody can get through.

“Ancano has done something to the Eye of Magnus, causing the orb to release incredible amounts of energy, and possibly putting the area in danger.”

https://youtu.be/yTlFNnMJHNY?t=37m28s

The Dragonborn fights through Labyrinthian. As he does, he encounters ghostly imprints, memories of six college mages from the past, one of which is Savos Aren. Their numbers are gradually whittled down and are struggling to proceed from the onset of their journey through Labyrinthian. Also, as you proceed through the labyrinth, the Dragon Priest Morokei will repeatedly drain your magicka and empower himself with it. Of the ghosts, only Savos Aren and two others are left before they fight Morokei. Two of the mages have been enthralled, and have trapped Morokei inside a magical barrier. After killing them, The Last Dragonborn fights and kills Morokei, who is wielding the Staff of Magnus. After the Dragonborn kills Morokei, it is revealed that it was Savos Aren who enthralled the Mages, his two friends.

Morokei: "Did he warn you that your own power would be your undoing? That it would only serve to strengthen me?”

https://youtu.be/hA37X274yNo?t=1m18s

Some information on the Staff of Magnus, aside from the fact it was used to siphon the power of an artifact capable of destroying the world.

“The Staff of Magnus, one of the elder artifacts of Tamriel, was a metaphysical battery of sorts for its creator, the Arch-Mage Magnus. When used, it regenerates both a mage's health and mystical energy at remarkable rates. In time, the Staff will abandon the mage who wields it before he or she becomes too powerful and upsets the mystical balance it is sworn to protect.”

“Ever hear of the Staff of Magnus? No offense, very few [race] kids your age have. It's this ancient relic that legend says can absorb a spell cast at it and give the spell's power to whoever holds it.”

“Be quiet, [race] fool, the Necromancers would not think at all about killing you just for mentioning the Staff of Magnus. Their most powerful mages are children compared to its power, and if they could possess it, surely they would rule [city name].”

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/staff-magnus

So basically, a dragon priest who is already a highly powerful mage and thu'um user, is now wielding a godly artifact that can suck you dry of magic. Yet, after being drained repeatedly, TLD fights through labyrinthian and kills Morokei.

As for the power of magic in ES, I've got a document going where I record impressive feats I find:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/179nCjmI92M8GRXnV0IKwtIFkvV0FVnyRJB5OS_R3lrE/edit?usp=sharing

If you go down to the bottom, the highest tier magic feats can be found.

I know he fought Miraak who partly accomplished his rupturing a part of Skyrim feat with non-Thu'um magic, while fighting that Dragon Priest guy...

That was pre-prime Miraak, as well. After that fight, Miraak spent 4,000 years growing in power and increasing his knowledge. The Dragonborn becomes more powerful than Miraak, and then after defeating him, additionally absorbs all of Miraak's power and knowledge. What that means is, you can effectively say TLD is more than twice as powerful as Miraak by his peak. For some perspective on what that means: that makes the Greybeards look like insects, for all intents and purposes.

Woah, man! Thanks a lot, this'll be a great resource.

One think I feel I should add is that I'm pretty sure we have seen first hand that the Dragonborn does not get all the knowledge of souls that he has absorbed, since Arngeir gives TLD quests to find Words around Skyrim so that he can improve his abilities with the Thu'um (and also so that he proves he is worthy of the knowledge) and TLD originally goes to the Greybeards learn more about Thu'um (for example, they directly transfer knowledge of Shouts into him)- both things that he wouldn't have to do since he had already killed dragons at that stage and should've had their collective knowledge rendering Word Walls basically redundant. Unlike game mechanics TLD's growing pains and gaps in knowledge are acknowledged explicitly so they're pretty much as canon as you can get.

@alphaq said:

I mean purely by feats TDL pretty much has no reaction feats at base...

Not in the traditional comic book sense, no. But that isn't proof by itself he would be blitzed by Wolverine. I think if we use common sense and look at what kind of character TLD is, what abilities he has at his disposal, and the feats of much lesser beings, we can safely deduce Wolverine wouldn't speedblitz him. It would be a ludicrous piece of writing to say the least.

In ES, we have people who can kill entire armies on their own or in small groups, outnumbered hundreds to one, we've got mages who can amplify their speed to levels where they can speedblitz enemies, who in turn can speedblitz other warriors. Also, as a vampire (and a particularly powerful one at that), TLD has superhuman physical stats at a base level, and vampires are capable of speedblitzing people.

If you add in the time manipulating, speed enhancing, and the feats of people who I cannot stress enough are insects compared to TLD, I can't see a feasible argument for Wolverine blitzing.

Amping speed still has to be activated at the start of the fight, meaning he would have to react at base.

Vampires are hard to generalize since their abilities widely different since there are so many different types of vamp. For all we know the vamps that could blitz people were particularly fast ones that don't apply to the type TLD is - especially since I remember in one book I read in the game tells the story of a vampire hunter that was able to literally go around beating vampires to death with his naked fists.

See, at the end of the day, as far as I can tell pretty much nobody in ES has reaction feats sufficient to react to an all-out Logan... it seems an awful lot like faith to assume TLD can react. While what you personally believe is fine regardless, you can't take that belief and demonstrate it to me. What I believe is actually irrelevant for that matter, too. All we can do is look at the objective information that we can agree on, and the only "correct" interpretation of a fight between the two as of now is that Logan blitzes, as far as I can tell in my limited knowledge.

Now if they were to fight in a comic or whatever, I have no doubt TLD would react just fine.

@jashugan:

I'm not sure what TLD has done to make him good fighter in the first place

How about taking on and wounding a war-god of supreme quality, revered as the greatest warrior to have ever existed?

“I am Tsun, shield-thane to Shor. The Whalebone Bridge he bade me guard and winnow all those souls whose heroic end sent them here, to Shor’s lofty hall where welcome, well-earned, awaits those I judge fit to join that fellowship of honour.”

[...]

“Living or dead, by decree of Shor, none shall pass this perilous bridge ‘til I judge them worthy by the warrior’s test.”

[...]

“You fought well. I find you worthy.”

https://youtu.be/KvQPrkSlzms?t=6m35s

Or defeating the Ebony Warrior. Upon doing so, the Dragonborn is now considered "the mightiest warrior in Skyrim since Ysgramor himself," Ysgramor being around 4,000 years prior.

Or being far better than the three first Tongues combined, who Paarthurnax considers the greatest heroes the Nords have ever had.

“Hakon, Gormlaith, Felldir? Who are they?”

“The first mortals that I taught the Thu’um - the first Tongues. The leaders of the rebellion against Alduin. They were mighty, in their day. Even to attempt to defeat Alduin… sahrot hunne. The Nords have had many heroes since, but none greater.

https://youtu.be/py5fEHdF_cs?t=59m36s

Or becoming the Harbinger of the Companions, the greatest warrior's guild in Skyrim's history.

Like much of what you have said so far, there is absolutely zero basis for the idea The Dragonborn is anything less than the greatest warrior Skyrim has ever seen. He's kind of a big deal.

The twice stuff is what you came up with.

No, it's what you're told during the main story.

Dragonborn: “What does it mean to be “Dragonborn?””

Arngeir: “Dragons have the inborn ability to learn and project their Voice. Dragons also are able to absorb the power of their slain brethren. A few mortals are born with similar abilities -- whether a gift or a curse has been a matter of debate down through the centuries.

[...]

As Dragonborn, you can absorb a slain dragon’s life force and knowledge directly.

You do this to both Miraak and Paarthurnax, and every other dragon you kill. So yes, being already more powerful than Miraak, absorbing his power in addition would make TLD twice as powerful. Being twice as powerful as Miraak, who stomped a version of TLD who had absorbed Paarthurnax's power, makes peak TLD multiple times more powerful than him.

@alphaq:

Problem is is that there is no direct relationship between power and cosmic significance and tax manipulation. For all we know Artorius figured out some magic no one else understands, making his ability unique.

Based on what?

For all we know he has some special ability himself, or went through some unique process. Maybe Akatosh favored him for whatever reason and decided to give him extra power, abilities or knowledge.

Based on what?

We simply don't know. If TLD was confirmed to be Artorius 2.0, superior in every way, we could say that he can scale off all his feats but right now we can't.

So you're telling me Akatosh bestowed more power on a priest than he did the Dragonborn, who he blessed with the soul of a dragon, so that he could literally stop the world from ending by defeating a literal god? Do you not think it would be the other way around? This makes little sense.

Hell, even among Thu'um users, different users have different aptitudes for different Shouts so TLD is not even confirmed to be superior in every Shout, never mind that they're using broadly different magic systems.

It's fairly simple when you consider TLD is better than everyone else. Shouting is a form of magic, it's not broadly different.

Kind of a weakness of a character who relies on status/hype/significance when scaling. TLD could certainly be said to be > Artorius but when it gets into the specifics of his abilities you can't scale off non-fodder for any particular area. Which sorta leaves him empty handed in everyarea, since if we say he's faster than a guy he defeated then we could easily say that he won by virtue of another attribute, like strength. But simultaneously we could say he defeated strong opponents via speed, or any other attribute. So he can't really counter specific attributes just be being in at least some way better than someone who could because they have specific feats.

No, what I'm telling you is, spells which amplify your speed are based on the talent and power of the mage casting them, and The Last Dragonborn is indisputably far more powerful than 99% of mages. He has spells which amplify his speed, ergo, Occam's razer dictates his skill in those spells is far higher. There's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be.

One think I feel I should add is that I'm pretty sure we have seen first hand that the Dragonborn does not get all the knowledge of souls that he has absorbed, since Arngeir gives TLD quests to find Words around Skyrim so that he can improve his abilities with the Thu'um

I would simply defer to Arngeir on this one.

“You learn a new Word like a master… you truly do have the gift. But learning a Word of Power is only the first step… you must unlock its meaning through constant practice in order to use it in a Shout. Well, that is how the rest of us learn Shouts. As Dragonborn, you can absorb a slain dragon’s life force and knowledge directly.

[...]

Arngeir: “Dragons have always been able to Shout. Language is intrinsic to their very being. There is no difference in the dragon tongue between debating and fighting. Shouting comes as naturally to a dragon as breathing, or speaking. In mythic times, when mortalkind was in great need, the Goddess Kynareth granted us the ability to speak as dragons do. For most people, long years of training are required to learn even the simplest shout. But for you, the dragon speech is in your blood, and you learn it almost without effort.”

To put this in perspective, he simply had to see the Dragonrend shout being used, and he learned it instantly. He didn't need to read a word wall to learn it. I'm positive by the time he has read demi-god power granting artifacts like the Oghma Infinium (which amplifies the inherent attributes of the user), the Black Books, meditating with Paarthurnax and absorbing Miraak and Paarthurnax's soul, he would know just as much as anyone else. Nobody else has acquired even close to the same level of insight, aside from Miraak.

Vampires are hard to generalize since their abilities widely different since there are so many different types of vamp. For all we know the vamps that could blitz people were particularly fast ones that don't apply to the type TLD is

Based on what? And it is fairly easy to generalise seeing as the Volkihar vampires are directly blessed by Molag Bal, and have his blood running through their veins, and are the most powerful and ancient of the vampire clans.

“Not just vampires. We are among the oldest and most powerful vampires in Skyrim.”

https://youtu.be/GCw_6BDWirc?t=45m18s

“Remember, you are no mere vampire. You are something far greater.”

https://youtu.be/JR0DYFWLaCs?t=13m23s

See, at the end of the day, as far as I can tell pretty much nobody in ES has reaction feats sufficient to react to an all-out Logan... it seems an awful lot like faith to assume TLD can react.

I think it takes a lot of faith to assume Logan can speedblitz a god-like, superhuman, time manipulating, master warrior, simply because he doesn't have explicit feats. Lacking explicit feats is a different thing entirely from having demonstrable limitations. Proof that Logan can speedblitz him would be if the Dragonborn has been shown to be slow, but on the contrary, by all available evidence, he is above Logan's paygrade. He is not a street leveller.

We're talking about a world where individuals who are like insects compared to TLD can take down entire armies by themselves, so the idea that Logan could kill TLD before he can utter a syllable is... unfounded.

Now if they were to fight in a comic or whatever, I have no doubt TLD would react just fine.

If they were fighting in a comic, the Dragonborn would say a couple words, and Logan would either be blown into the horizon, have his mind bent, his soul ripped out, caught in a whirlwind storm, frozen solid, grabbed telekinetically, transmuted into a cow... and the list goes on. We're talking about a street-leveller versus a reality warping demi-god. The onus is on you to prove Logan can compete at such a level.

@shepardoakenprime:

While that fortify agility spell seems impressive I'm still missing where he can cast said spell before Wolverine reaches him, and even just assuming he somehow could it doesn't seem to be as impressive as Logan's speed feats. For example he dashed past multiple soldiers and sliced their guns without them even knowing it which alone easily compares to picking ones pocket without them noticing.

I'm not seeing how blitzing four fodder, unenhanced gunmen is proof you can speedblitz a superhuman, prophetic demi-god who can take out entire armies single handedly, but at the end of the day, there's no way to tell the Dragonborn's upper limit of speed relative to Logan short of them fighting in a comic. But I think you can agree, the idea Logan would blitz him is pretty ludicrous.

I'm aware of Whirlwind Sprint but that's useless when he can only briefly dash forward, and again Elemental Fury doesn't look to be nearly as fast as Wolverine.

There's a dedication to a Nord on the Word Wall where you learn whirlwind sprint. Said Nord is remembered for having killed an army of orcs single handed, presumably using the Whirlwind Sprint shout, thus, "Wynjolf the Whirlwind." This guy isn't even close to the kind of power people like the Greybeards have, who are confirmed to be the most powerful of the ancient tongues still alive, or the three ancient warriors, who Paarthurnax states are Skyrim's greatest heroes. The Last Dragonborn is far more powerful than all of them.

It just isn't rocket science. I have proof TLD is ridiculously fast, you have proof Logan can kill fodder gunmen before they can react.

I'm not trying to say that the Dragonborn isn't powerful I'm fully aware that his spells and shouts would give these people a run for their money at the very least, but so far nothing has been provided that proves he can cast a spell or shout before Wolverine reaches him.

Who has Logan blitzed that is even remotely on TLD's level? All he has to do is get out one whisper and Logan is paste on the wall.

Before you say that I haven't proved Logan can reach him before TLD can attack can you post a feat that actually disproves it? Because the last feat I mentioned, where he kills 4 men before someone can finish a word, pretty much does prove it. You provided a spell that increases his speed (to an unknown amount) but he needs to cast it first, he needs to shout in order to slow time and I still have yet to believe that he can before a blitz. Proof that he automatically has superhuman speed would be nice, but still does he have a feat similar to Wolverine being able to dodge bullets?

I posted above that he has, at base, vampire level speed, sufficient to blitz other people. There are no shortage of unenhanced beings in Elder Scrolls who can army bust. So again, the idea that Logan can kill the greatest warrior, the most powerful Thu'um user, a demi-god, a literal divine prophet, before he can even say something, makes little sense.

Again I'm not questioning the power behind his shouts, I'm questioning whether or not he can pull one off in time because him being able to bfr Wolverine with a mere whisper means nothing if he can't do it in time.

If you stop comparing demi-gods to fodder gunmen, it'll start to make a lot of sense.

Nobody is dodging Auriel's bow.

Problem is is that there is no direct relationship between power and cosmic significance and tax manipulation. For all we know Artorius figured out some magic no one else understands, making his ability unique.

Based on what?

I should have thought it self evident... power is not an absolute thing that means everything character A does means his overall superior character B can do. Difference in abilities, skillsets, natural talents, knowledge, experience, all differentiate a character's capabilities.

For all we know he has some special ability himself, or went through some unique process. Maybe Akatosh favored him for whatever reason and decided to give him extra power, abilities or knowledge.

Based on what?

The above is an acknowledgement of a possibility, not an assertion. If it was an assertion I would have to provide evidence for it being the case, but I don't. The point of bringing it up is that, as far as I can tell, we don't actually understand the details behind how Asteroth was doing his time manipulation. I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you, if you want to make the claim that Asteroth's time manipulation feats could be replicated by TLD , you'll first have to prove he is superior in the regard. And that would require being able to reject any circumstantial factors that might have increased Asteroth's relative ability in the area, like the ones I mentioned, e.g knowledge/natural affinity/external factors, etc.

We simply don't know. If TLD was confirmed to be Artorius 2.0, superior in every way, we could say that he can scale off all his feats but right now we can't.

So you're telling me Akatosh bestowed more power on a priest than he did the Dragonborn, who he blessed with the soul of a dragon, so that he could literally stop the world from ending by defeating a literal god? Do you not think it would be the other way around? This makes little sense.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, we can't prove it either way without canon proof. Even if he Akatosh didn't bestow any particular power, the fact remains that power is differentiated into different capabilities. Akatosh and the Dragonborn could have different skillsets and talents. Or they could have the same. The point is that I'm not making an assertion, you are when you begin to scale TLD off of Akatosh. The burden of proof is on you to prove TDL can match Akatosh's time manip, simple as that.

We simply don't know. If TLD was confirmed to be Artorius 2.0, superior in every way, we could say that he can scale off all his feats but right now we can't.

So you're telling me Akatosh bestowed more power on a priest than he did the Dragonborn, who he blessed with the soul of a dragon, so that he could literally stop the world from ending by defeating a literal god? Do you not think it would be the other way around? This makes little sense.

Better than them ultimately/at the end of the day. Never was it stated that he is the best at every Shout and since Shouts are powered by internal things that would be difficult to min-max within the lore it would stand to reason that he isn't the best at every Shout... someone who has mastered Shouts entrenched in rage would have a hard time mastering ones centered in serenity. Regardless, he could very well be the best at every Shout, but once again the burden of proof lies on the person making an assertion either way.

I understand from a conversation with another ES expert that they are ultimately the same but they can't exactly be scaled off of each other.

I would simply defer to Arngeir on this one.

“You learn a new Word like a master… you truly do have the gift. But learning a Word of Power is only the first step… you must unlock its meaning through constant practice in order to use it in a Shout. Well, that is how the rest of us learn Shouts. As Dragonborn, you can absorb a slain dragon’s life force and knowledge directly.

[...]

Arngeir: “Dragons have always been able to Shout. Language is intrinsic to their very being. There is no difference in the dragon tongue between debating and fighting. Shouting comes as naturally to a dragon as breathing, or speaking. In mythic times, when mortalkind was in great need, the Goddess Kynareth granted us the ability to speak as dragons do. For most people, long years of training are required to learn even the simplest shout. But for you, the dragon speech is in your blood, and you learn it almost without effort.”

To put this in perspective, he simply had to see the Dragonrend shout being used, and he learned it instantly. He didn't need to read a word wall to learn it. I'm positive by the time he has read demi-god power granting artifacts like the Oghma Infinium (which amplifies the inherent attributes of the user), the Black Books, meditating with Paarthurnax and absorbing Miraak and Paarthurnax's soul, he would know just as much as anyone else. Nobody else has acquired even close to the same level of insight, aside from Miraak.

Arngeir is either wrong or he means it in a less literal sense than you're reading. What's for sure is that he doesn't absorb all the knowledge, the quests confirm that.

Kind of a weakness of a character who relies on status/hype/significance when scaling. TLD could certainly be said to be > Artorius but when it gets into the specifics of his abilities you can't scale off non-fodder for any particular area. Which sorta leaves him empty handed in everyarea, since if we say he's faster than a guy he defeated then we could easily say that he won by virtue of another attribute, like strength. But simultaneously we could say he defeated strong opponents via speed, or any other attribute. So he can't really counter specific attributes just be being in at least some way better than someone who could because they have specific feats.

No, what I'm telling you is, spells which amplify your speed are based on the talent and power of the mage casting them, and The Last Dragonborn is indisputably far more powerful than 99% of mages. He has spells which amplify his speed, ergo, Occam's razer dictates his skill in those spells is far higher. There's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be.

I said non-fodder, he can surely get scaling from fodder.

Vampires are hard to generalize since their abilities widely different since there are so many different types of vamp. For all we know the vamps that could blitz people were particularly fast ones that don't apply to the type TLD is

Based on what? And it is fairly easy to generalise seeing as the Volkihar vampires are directly blessed by Molag Bal, and have his blood running through their veins, and are the most powerful and ancient of the vampire clans.

“Not just vampires. We are among the oldest and most powerful vampires in Skyrim.”

https://youtu.be/GCw_6BDWirc?t=45m18s

“Remember, you are no mere vampire. You are something far greater.”

https://youtu.be/JR0DYFWLaCs?t=13m23s

I'm basing my memory on vampires from an in-game novel I read a few years back in that vampire castle place. About a vampire hunter killing different types of vampires with different abilities only to realize that he was being manipulated by one vampire who wanted to remove the competition. My memory is pretty good, I trust it. The main point is that vampires come in different types and have different strengths/weaknesses.

That first quote implicitly states that there are other vampires around as powerful.

Anyway, whether or not TDL gets scaling off every vampire depends on how wide the vampire package is I guess. I'm tired now, but I'll look into it later.

See, at the end of the day, as far as I can tell pretty much nobody in ES has reaction feats sufficient to react to an all-out Logan... it seems an awful lot like faith to assume TLD can react.

I think it takes a lot of faith to assume Logan can speedblitz a god-like, superhuman, time manipulating, master warrior, simply because he doesn't have explicit feats. Lacking explicit feats is a different thing entirely from having demonstrable limitations. Proof that Logan can speedblitz him would be if the Dragonborn has been shown to be slow, but on the contrary, by all available evidence, he is above Logan's paygrade. He is not a street leveller.

We're talking about a world where individuals who are like insects compared to TLD can take down entire armies by themselves, so the idea that Logan could kill TLD before he can utter a syllable is... unfounded.

Now if they were to fight in a comic or whatever, I have no doubt TLD would react just fine.

If they were fighting in a comic, the Dragonborn would say a couple words, and Logan would either be blown into the horizon, have his mind bent, his soul ripped out, caught in a whirlwind storm, frozen solid, grabbed telekinetically, transmuted into a cow... and the list goes on. We're talking about a street-leveller versus a reality warping demi-god. The onus is on you to prove Logan can compete at such a level.

Not really. Logan has speed feats and scaling. Dragonborn has some scaling. So far, Wolverine's feats and scaling > Dragonborn's feats and scaling to the degree that Logan would blitz. The character with feats is always taken to be stronger... I might as well say something like Wolverine has the Thu'um and place the onus on you to prove he doesn't. Technically, that would be impossible, but nobody is asking we prove Dragonborn's Thu'um > Logan's Thu'um.

Don't make the mistake of breaking characters into tiers. It is the worst habit on the Vine that I see regularly, tiers mean are artificial and mean nothing.

@i_like_swords Post above is for you.

@ghostravage Cheers for tagging ILS, my man :)

@alphaq: You're welcome. This thread is turning interesting.

@alphaq:

I should have thought it self evident... power is not an absolute thing that means everything character A does means his overall superior character B can do. Difference in abilities, skillsets, natural talents, knowledge, experience, all differentiate a character's capabilities.

They're both blessed by the same god, they're both using time manipulation. One is an insect, the other saved the world and is more powerful than everyone else. I find it very hard to believe Artorius is even scratching The Last Dragonborn as a time manipulator when he can't even defeat the Vestige. Your assertion that his use of time manipulation is special to him is an argument without evidence.

The above is an acknowledgement of a possibility, not an assertion.

It's also possible he just isn't special, and the character who is way more powerful than him is a better time manipulator. One argument has evidence, the other is as you said, a possibility - an incredibly sketchy one at that.

The point of bringing it up is that, as far as I can tell, we don't actually understand the details behind how Asteroth was doing his time manipulation. I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you, if you want to make the claim that Asteroth's time manipulation feats could be replicated by TLD , you'll first have to prove he is superior in the regard. And that would require being able to reject any circumstantial factors that might have increased Asteroth's relative ability in the area, like the ones I mentioned, e.g knowledge/natural affinity/external factors, etc.

You're not allowed to raise the possibility of something and leave it undefended, and then place the burden of proof on me. We know for certain Artorius isn't fit to shine TLD's shoes, they're both using magic to manipulate time, and there's nothing to suggest there is anything distinct about what Artorius is doing. No need to make things complicated.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, we can't prove it either way without canon proof.

You can infer things if you use common sense.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, we can't prove it either way without canon proof. Even if he Akatosh didn't bestow any particular power, the fact remains that power is differentiated into different capabilities. Akatosh and the Dragonborn could have different skillsets and talents. Or they could have the same. The point is that I'm not making an assertion, you are when you begin to scale TLD off of Akatosh. The burden of proof is on you to prove TDL can match Akatosh's time manip, simple as that.

I think even you are aware of how nebulous your argument is. There is no given distinction between their respective uses of time manipulation.

Never was it stated that he is the best at every Shout and since Shouts are powered by internal things that would be difficult to min-max within the lore it would stand to reason that he isn't the best at every Shout...

Wat? Can you coherently explain to me how any given character is better than the Dragonborn at any given shout? Give me one example. Because I can coherently point to facts like the Dragonborn having the largest count of dragon souls absorbed, the most impressive feats of power, like killing Alduin and Miraak, the 2nd and 3rd most skilled and knowledgeable Thu'um users ever. Or him using the Oghma Infinium and Black Books, god-created artifacts, to gain knowledge of his inherent abilities which amplify them to "demi-god proportions." The Dragonborn's understanding of Shouting puts everyone else to shame, no other conclusion makes sense.

If you are going to say "character x is exceptionally good at x Shout", you need to prove it. Raising possibilities with zero evidence is not an argument.

Arngeir is either wrong or he means it in a less literal sense than you're reading. What's for sure is that he doesn't absorb all the knowledge, the quests confirm that.

The Dragonborn seeking out Word Walls to increase his understanding of Shouting in no way proves he doesn't absorb the knowledge of dragons. Him learning a brand new shout just by seeing it used, instantly, is proof that he learns these shouts without effort. So again, the idea that he doesn't know at least as much as the Greybeards by his peak has zero basis.

I said non-fodder, he can surely get scaling from fodder.

Believe me when I say Artorius is fodder to TLD. Him losing to the Vestige voids any reasonable comparison between him and the guy who murked Miraak and Alduin.

Not really. Logan has speed feats and scaling. Dragonborn has some scaling. So far, Wolverine's feats and scaling > Dragonborn's feats and scaling to the degree that Logan would blitz.

Logan's speed feats do not prove he can blitz the Dragonborn, in any way.

The character with feats is always taken to be stronger... I might as well say something like Wolverine has the Thu'um and place the onus on you to prove he doesn't. Technically, that would be impossible, but nobody is asking we prove Dragonborn's Thu'um > Logan's Thu'um.

Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. In this case, I have evidence the Dragonborn can blow Wolverine into next week by whispering, whereas you guys have proof that Logan can kill four average joes with guns. The disparity in argumentative quality here is stark.

Don't make the mistake of breaking characters into tiers. It is the worst habit on the Vine that I see regularly, tiers mean are artificial and mean nothing.

As soon as you stop making arguments without evidence, and comparing legendary, reality warping demi-gods to fodder gunmen, I will start taking advice from you.

Not sure about the others but no way is he beating zilla

@i_like_swords: I didn't want to get aggressive with you since I generally like you but you're tagging me over a trivial matter, with these arguments that I can't help but feel contempt for (since they have none of the empiricism that I think should underpin the Battle Forums) has forced my hand.

I should have thought it self evident... power is not an absolute thing that means everything character A does means his overall superior character B can do. Difference in abilities, skillsets, natural talents, knowledge, experience, all differentiate a character's capabilities.

They're both blessed by the same god, they're both using time manipulation. One is an insect, the other saved the world and is more powerful than everyone else. I find it very hard to believe Artorius is even scratching The Last Dragonborn as a time manipulator when he can't even defeat the Vestige. Your assertion that his use of time manipulation is special to him is an argument without evidence.

Their relationship with Akatosh are very different though. The Dragonborn doesn't draw his power from Akatosh like Asteroth does, or at least not in the same way. The nature of their power is different, just as the magnitude of it is.

Saying you find it hard to believe is basically the sum of the argument that you have presented so far. You have have not presented any proof, any statements, any scaling chains, any differentiation of feats, or even analysis of feats. All you've done is make a claim and then demand that I prove that you're wrong, and claim that my refusal to accept your opinion as canon since there are other possibilities that you have not addressed at all somehow means that I have to prove those possibilities. That is debating made out of the weakest stuff.

I'm pretty sure that I explained this to you already, how what I have been saying is different to an assertion. At this stage, I think I should just clear up some basic points about using logic/making an argument. When someone makes a claim they can do it one of two ways, by proving it in itself or by disproving the alternatives. You made the claim the TLD is the equal/superior time manipulator to Artorius, justifying this based on the former's superior standing in the verse. I pointed out that since there are alternative interpretations to this that we can't take it to be true. You responded that my not proving this alternative/these alternatives means that we can disregard them. That is not the case, just the fact that these alternatives could be valid means that we cannot take any other view, since we haven't proved it to be true. As always, the burden of proof always lies with the person making theclaim. Saying that there are alternatives is a claim that is essentially always valid, unless there are explicit contradicting confirmations. Saying that one interpretation is correct, like you are doing, requires you to prove that interpretation is valid.

The above is an acknowledgement of a possibility, not an assertion.

It's also possible he just isn't special, and the character who is way more powerful than him is a better time manipulator. One argument has evidence, the other is as you said, a possibility - an incredibly sketchy one at that.

They're both possibilities. The difference between me and you is that I try and take what I actually know, what can be proven and demonstrated when I make my analysis so that I find the most objective and correct answer. I don't accept you're scaling because you can't prove it, simple as that. I don't accept things that haven't been proven. You can only guess at things and try to persuade, not prove. I have no time for it, the Battle Forums should stick to proven feats and scaling.

The point of bringing it up is that, as far as I can tell, we don't actually understand the details behind how Asteroth was doing his time manipulation. I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you, if you want to make the claim that Asteroth's time manipulation feats could be replicated by TLD , you'll first have to prove he is superior in the regard. And that would require being able to reject any circumstantial factors that might have increased Asteroth's relative ability in the area, like the ones I mentioned, e.g knowledge/natural affinity/external factors, etc.

You're not allowed to raise the possibility of something and leave it undefended, and then place the burden of proof on me. We know for certain Artorius isn't fit to shine TLD's shoes, they're both using magic to manipulate time, and there's nothing to suggest there is anything distinct about what Artorius is doing. No need to make things complicated.

The first sentence you just said is embarrassingly bad. That's some first post noob Viner grade material right there. The fact that there is an alternative possibility that has not been debunked means that we can't accept any other interpretation yet. If I know that my great-grandfather could have been blue eyed and that he could have been brown eyed, it means that until I debunk one of them (or, inversely, prove one) I can't accept either belief as the truth. In the same way, any possibility I raised could be true or not true - but the fact that they could be true disallows any belief in any specific possibility. The burden of proof rested on you when you when you made the scaling claim that you did, my pointing out that you haven't debunked alternative possibilities is a way of showing that you haven't fulfilled the burden in the first place, since if you had their would be no possibilities.

Artorius, as you said, is blessed by Akatosh, so there is something very distinct about him right there (that doesn't apply in the same way to TLD). And the magic that they are using is utilized differently. Saying that nothing suggests anything is distinct about what he is doing requires that old response "absence of proof isn't proof of absence". The could well be something distinct, for your to claim it is not distinct requires you to prove it.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, we can't prove it either way without canon proof.

You can infer things if you use common sense.

Common sense on the Battle Forums is using what can actually be used and demonstrated to other users without being contested. I'm fine with you believing whatever you want, but don't come hear and insult people by implying that they don't have common sense when they have a higher standard of proof than you.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, we can't prove it either way without canon proof. Even if he Akatosh didn't bestow any particular power, the fact remains that power is differentiated into different capabilities. Akatosh and the Dragonborn could have different skillsets and talents. Or they could have the same. The point is that I'm not making an assertion, you are when you begin to scale TLD off of Akatosh. The burden of proof is on you to prove TDL can match Akatosh's time manip, simple as that.

I think even you are aware of how nebulous your argument is. There is no given distinction between their respective uses of time manipulation.

On the contrary, from all the information that I have available to me, I am extremely confident that we shouldn't afford scaling rights off of Astaroth for TLD. The two main distinctions are the people using them, who have different powersets generally, and the fact that they both used different types of magic. If you want to scale one thing off another you first have to prove that they are similar, and you haven't. Thu'um and magic users generally display different types of effects with their magics, that alone means that we can't scale one of the other.

Arngeir is either wrong or he means it in a less literal sense than you're reading. What's for sure is that he doesn't absorb all the knowledge, the quests confirm that.

The Dragonborn seeking out Word Walls to increase his understanding of Shouting in no way proves he doesn't absorb the knowledge of dragons. Him learning a brand new shout just by seeing it used, instantly, is proof that he learns these shouts without effort. So again, the idea that he doesn't know at least as much as the Greybeards by his peak has zero basis.

Well, it would be hard to explain why TLD needed to find the Walls for new words when he already had absorbed a Dragon's soul that should have given him at least one set of vocabularies that are intrinsic to all Dragons. Regardless, the stronger proof comes in the Greybeard's teaching TLD the second and third words of Unrelenting Force, which should be a basic Shout every dragon knows (since even Draugr know it), by transferring the knowledge directly into him.

No clue why you're talking about how quickly he learns shouts or his knowledge relative to the Greybeards, pretty sure the only point that I made was that he doesn't absorb all the knowledge from Dragon's he kills since the storyline acknowledges his needing to learn Thu'um, which he should've mastered by his first dragon kill if he truly absorbed their knowledge.

I said non-fodder, he can surely get scaling from fodder.

Believe me when I say Artorius is fodder to TLD. Him losing to the Vestige voids any reasonable comparison between him and the guy who murked Miraak and Alduin.

Fodder as in they would be towards the centre of a normal distribution if magical ability was arranged as such. Not relative to anyone in a fight.

Never was it stated that he is the best at every Shout and since Shouts are powered by internal things that would be difficult to min-max within the lore it would stand to reason that he isn't the best at every Shout...

Wat? Can you coherently explain to me how any given character is better than the Dragonborn at any given shout? Give me one example. Because I can coherently point to facts like the Dragonborn having the largest count of dragon souls absorbed, the most impressive feats of power, like killing Alduin and Miraak, the 2nd and 3rd most skilled and knowledgeable Thu'um users ever. Or him using the Oghma Infinium and Black Books, god-created artifacts, to gain knowledge of his inherent abilities which amplify them to "demi-god proportions." The Dragonborn's understanding of Shouting puts everyone else to shame, no other conclusion makes sense.

If you are going to say "character x is exceptionally good at x Shout", you need to prove it. Raising possibilities with zero evidence is not an argument.

Lol at raising possibilities without any evidence not being an argument. The fact that there are possibilities means that someone hasn't proven something. You can't prove TLD is the best at every Shout, since there is no confirmation that is the case. We don't know his proficiency with any particular Shout - just his overall proficiency. The distribution of proficiency between shouts is unrevealed. He could be equally skilled with them all, or more skilled with a few. The thing is that unlike in the game where you can be equally skilled with every Shout in the lore the Thu'um is a reflection of the person - like the Light and Dark sides of the Force in Star Wars (though the game does reference this when your meditations with Paarthunax means that you can only embody one Shout), your powers with them are dependent on juxtaposed emotions and traits. Lore wise it makes sense for TLD to be unequally skilled between the Shouts, though I admit that I can't prove it.

The character I had in mind was Jurgen Windcaller since I imagined his following The Way of the Voice made him more serene than TLD, since you asked what specific character. Though I know very little about Jurgen, him being more a symbolic amalgamation of the unknown users of Thu'um in my head. Lets just say that it is possible that some Thu'um user in history was better at any particular Shout than TLD.

Not really. Logan has speed feats and scaling. Dragonborn has some scaling. So far, Wolverine's feats and scaling > Dragonborn's feats and scaling to the degree that Logan would blitz.

Logan's speed feats do not prove he can blitz the Dragonborn, in any way.

Well, we don't know how fast the Dragonborn is. The maximum we can imagine him to be would be a speedster. The minimum would be someone Logan could blitz. Since characters are taken to have to work their way up with feats, rather than down with anti-feats, we take the minimum and the appropriate answer to this question is Logan blitzes, I guess.

The character with feats is always taken to be stronger... I might as well say something like Wolverine has the Thu'um and place the onus on you to prove he doesn't. Technically, that would be impossible, but nobody is asking we prove Dragonborn's Thu'um > Logan's Thu'um.

Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. In this case, I have evidence the Dragonborn can blow Wolverine into next week by whispering, whereas you guys have proof that Logan can kill four average joes with guns. The disparity in argumentative quality here is stark.

There is actually something unspoken in that first rule - "Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence to the degree it is regarded as no more valid than any contradictory argument". You can dismiss Logan having Thu'um in the sense that you don't have to believe it but you can't prove it isn't true.

Anyway, you've got me mixed up with someone else since I never posted that feat of Logan blitzing gunmen.

Don't make the mistake of breaking characters into tiers. It is the worst habit on the Vine that I see regularly, tiers mean are artificial and mean nothing.

As soon as you stop making arguments without evidence, and comparing legendary, reality warping demi-gods to fodder gunmen, I will start taking advice from you.

1. Uses tiering argument when confronted with specific feats.
2. Receives friendly advice that tiers are meaningless.
3. Responds rudely while mistaking the other person for someone else and mistakes a critique of an argument for an argument .

Fair enough.

What on earth are anti feats.

@slayedigneel: Failing to do something. They're generally weaker than feats though.

EDIT: To elaborate, if one writer has Batman fail to lift a motorcycle, yet under another writer he succeeds, we take it that Batman can lift a motorcycle.

@alphaq:

I didn't want to get aggressive with you since I generally like you but you're tagging me over a trivial matter, with these arguments that I can't help but feel contempt for (since they have none of the empiricism that I think should underpin the Battle Forums) has forced my hand.

Bit dramatic.

Their relationship with Akatosh are very different though.

Proof?

The Dragonborn doesn't draw his power from Akatosh like Asteroth does

Proof?

, or at least not in the same way.

Both are covered by the umbrella of magic.

The nature of their power is different, just as the magnitude of it is.

You're right there. One guy was blessed with enough power to kill a god and save the world, and the other guy loses to the Vestige. I do wonder who the Time god is going to give priority to with regard to time powers, an over-zealous priest or someone who has literally been blessed with the soul of one of his children. I do wonder who is going to be better at using magical powers, the guy who is extremely powerful, or the guy who may as well be an insect.

Saying you find it hard to believe is basically the sum of the argument that you have presented so far. You have have not presented any proof, any statements, any scaling chains, any differentiation of feats, or even analysis of feats.

Not really. It makes perfect sense why an utter random wouldn't be as good as the Dragonborn at an ability that falls under the same umbrella of power - magic. Your refusal to accept such a simple line of inference is your own failing. Contrary to your own belief, you cannot simply hand-wave a logically inferred argument simply because it doesn't fit your own criteria of "proof." None of your counter-arguments have been evidence based. You just keep insisting there must be something profoundly different between their uses of time manipulation, despite the fact this is mentioned nowhere.

Anyway, we know for a fact "the world stands still" around for not only the Dragonborn, but even other random dragons who know this power. The Dragonborn has probably eaten hundreds of dragon souls. So this is essentially a waste of time now. I'm not going to pursue the point any further, aside from explaining something to you below.

I'm pretty sure that I explained this to you already, how what I have been saying is different to an assertion.

You made the claim the TLD is the equal/superior time manipulator to Artorius, justifying this based on the former's superior standing in the verse.

I pointed out that since there are alternative interpretations to this that we can't take it to be true. You responded that my not proving this alternative/these alternatives means that we can disregard them.

Thanks for explaining the situation so well. I made the very simple to understand argument that if two guys are blessed by Akatosh, and one is a random priest who loses to relatively low tier characters, and the other is taking on and defeating the most powerful beings in Elder Scrolls, reading ludicrously powerful artifacts to enhance his powers, and is blessed with the immortal soul of a dragon, it is in no way difficult to figure who is better at using the same power.

You then proceeded to make arguments without evidence. Simply saying "what if Artorius is just better at this one power" is not a valid counter-argument.

An easier example of this to understand would be if Gorgon beat the shit out of Wolverine. Instead of taking the fight as intended - Gorgon is better than Wolverine - someone could say "but what if Wolverine had a bad day!", "what if Wolverine was holding back," "what if Wolverine was surprised by this new villain!" Sure, those are all possible interpretations. But none of them are based on anything. The only verifiable fact we have is that Gorgon beat the pants off of Wolverine, ergo, he's probably better than him.

The Dragonborn makes Artorius look like an insect, ergo, he's probably better than him at abilities they both use, abilities that fall under the same umbrella of magic and are both based on the effectiveness of the mage. If you are going to insist Artorius' use of time manipulation is somehow distinct, you need to prove it, because ultimately arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Like, if I asked you who is better at manipulating time, Artorius or Alduin, Alduin being Akatosh's first-born son, a deity who is capable of ending the universe itself, who do you think you would pick? Once you've come to the correct conclusion, consider that a version of the Dragonborn nowhere close to his peak is more powerful than Alduin.

The first sentence you just said is embarrassingly bad. That's some first post noob Viner grade material right there.

Kid, stop.

The fact that there is an alternative possibility that has not been debunked means that we can't accept any other interpretation yet.

So essentially, if you invent 99 different possibilities I need to prove the negative on all of them? That's not how it works. Embarrassing indeed.

The two main distinctions are the people using them, who have different powersets generally, and the fact that they both used different types of magic.

You've said this about ten times now, and every time I ask for proof, you fail to provide. Funny that.

If you want to scale one thing off another you first have to prove that they are similar, and you haven't. Thu'um and magic users generally display different types of effects with their magics, that alone means that we can't scale one of the other.

They are both types of magic, and magic in of itself has limitless application. The only constraints are the imagination and willpower of the mage. So this makes no sense, whatsoever. The only distinction between shouting and casting spells are the shouting and casting parts.

Well, it would be hard to explain why TLD needed to find the Walls for new words when he already had absorbed a Dragon's soul that should have given him at least one set of vocabularies that are intrinsic to all Dragons. Regardless, the stronger proof comes in the Greybeard's teaching TLD the second and third words of Unrelenting Force, which should be a basic Shout every dragon knows (since even Draugr know it), by transferring the knowledge directly into him.

It's likely due to the fact you can only comprehend so much raw data with a human brain. He has the skill of effortlessly absorbing the knowledge of dragons, but he still needs to interpret the information. That is why being given an understanding of Unrelenting Force, an identical understanding to that of another human being, directly sent to his brain, is useful.

But either way, he reads all the Word Walls, he kills a ton of dragons, he's more powerful than everyone else, he reads Shout-boosting artifacts nobody else has access to... it's not rocket science.

No clue why you're talking about how quickly he learns shouts or his knowledge relative to the Greybeards, pretty sure the only point that I made was that he doesn't absorb all the knowledge from Dragon's he kills since the storyline acknowledges his needing to learn Thu'um, which he should've mastered by his first dragon kill if he truly absorbed their knowledge.

No, you just assumed that because he doesn't instantly master everything he absorbs from a dragon, that he must not absorb all of that knowledge. But no, it's a verifiable fact that he absorbs all of their knowledge and power, he then only needs to interpret it, which by his peak, he surely would have.

You can't prove TLD is the best at every Shout, since there is no confirmation that is the case.

I can make a pretty good argument for it, you can ignore it, and then we can go around in circles, as we've been doing.

Lore wise it makes sense for TLD to be unequally skilled between the Shouts, though I admit that I can't prove it.

Bingo. You can't prove it.

The character I had in mind was Jurgen Windcaller since I imagined his following The Way of the Voice made him more serene than TLD, since you asked what specific character.

The Greybeards, who are the culmination of Jurgen's teachings, would get utterly annihilated by the Dragonborn, Alduin or Miraak, so the idea that Jurgen Windcaller by himself is better than the Dragonborn at anything is nonsensical to say the least. Him being "more serene" isn't a coherent argument. He followed the Way of the Voice because he is a regular mortal, who was only ever blessed with the knowledge of Dragon Shouting in ancient times, so that men could avoid being wiped out by dragons. The Nords were ineffectively using the power of the Thu'um by using it to fuel their wars, and when Jurgen tried a different approach - pacifism - he became far more powerful than all of his contemporaries.

But as a Dragonborn, you are no mere mortal. You have the blood and soul of a dragon, the same will to dominate. Dragons value power above all else - to them, the more powerful you are, the deeper your understanding of the Thu'um is, because Shouting/fighting and debating are one in the same for dragons. So the Dragonborn using his power to successfully kill Alduin, a god, and Miraak, another Dragonborn with ludicrous levels of power and knowledge, proves he has a far better grasp of Shouting than Jurgen could ever attain.

But of course, to know all of that, you need to actually know what you're talking about, instead of just "raising possibilities" about how "serene Jurgen Windcaller is."

Lets just say that it is possible that some Thu'um user in history was better at any particular Shout than TLD.

Prove it.

Well, we don't know how fast the Dragonborn is.

Faster than people who can kill entire armies single handed, fast enough to kill the most powerful vampires in existence, regular vampires being fast enough to blitz people, etc. He's pretty fast, being a god-killing demigod.

Since characters are taken to have to work their way up with feats, rather than down with anti-feats, we take the minimum and the appropriate answer to this question is Logan blitzes, I guess.

And I guess we can just say anything and it'll come true, and we just don't need to prove anything we say, I guess. Possibilities and all that.

You can dismiss Logan having Thu'um in the sense that you don't have to believe it but you can't prove it isn't true.

Nobody has to prove it isn't true, because there's no evidence for it. The same thing with everything you've said so far.

@i_like_swords:

I'm not seeing how blitzing four fodder, unenhanced gunmen is proof you can speedblitz a superhuman, prophetic demi-god who can take out entire armies single handedly.

Blitzing four fodder gunmen before someone could finish speaking a word, don't forget that part as that's obviously the most important part of the blitz, nor is that the most impressive speed feat I mentioned. The superhuman part of that sentence is the only one that matters if you can prove it, him being a demi-god doesn't matter unless you have proof that means he won't get pierced by his claws and taking out entire armies doesn't matter (Wolverine could do the same). It's like if I said "Wolverine is an insanely skilled warrior, superhuman mutant who is pretty much impossible to kill" as an argument why he would win or wouldn't be effected by TLD's spells and shouts, both sentences mean little to nothing and specifically "a demi-god who can take out armies" doesn't disprove a blitz. There is nothing here that proves he's fast enough to specifically cast a spell or shout in milliseconds in order to keep Wolverine from blitzing him.

But at the end of the day, there's no way to tell the Dragonborn's upper limit of speed relative to Logan short of them fighting in a comic. But I think you can agree, the idea Logan would blitz him is pretty ludicrous.

So you admit to it right here that there is no proof that TLD's top speed is at or even near Logan's, the discussion whether or not he could be blitzed shouldn't go any further if there isn't proof, so no I don't see why the possibility is ludicrous.

There's a dedication to a Nord on the Word Wall where you learn whirlwind sprint. Said Nord is remembered for having killed an army of orcs single handed, presumably using the Whirlwind Sprint shout, thus, "Wynjolf the Whirlwind." This guy isn't even close to the kind of power people like the Greybeards have, who are confirmed to be the most powerful of the ancient tongues still alive, or the three ancient warriors, who Paarthurnax states are Skyrim's greatest heroes. The Last Dragonborn is far more powerful than all of them.

It just isn't rocket science. I have proof TLD is ridiculously fast, you have proof Logan can kill fodder gunmen before they can react.

I'm not seeing where it states that he specifically used that shout in order to take down an army, even you said "presumably", It's possible it only helped him get around. Still the speed at which the user dashes doesn't look to be anything Logan couldn't handle, also TLD being more powerful still doesn't automatically mean the shout would make him as fast as Logan, and again nothing suggest he can shout in time.

It just isn't rocket science. I have proof TLD is ridiculously fast, you have proof Logan can kill fodder gunmen before they can react.

Who has Logan blitzed that is even remotely on TLD's level? All he has to do is get out one whisper and Logan is paste on the wall.

Come now, don't act like that speed feat was the only one I mentioned. Logan moving fast enough to catch and dodge bullets is clearly something that is way beyond what TLD has done at least until there is a specific speed feat he has that proves he can move as fast and can attack before Logan can blitz. I mentioned him killing those gunmen before a guy could finish speaking because clearly it would be very similar to TLD shouting, and unless he can shout faster than a bullet can cross a few yards then I agree it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come to the conclusion there simply isn't sufficient evidence to say otherwise.

@alphaq already gave you examples of him blitzing people so I'll just quote what they said so you can take another look.

"Logan has blitzed people who can fight/kill in the space between seconds, made Spidey worry who was faster, moved fast enough that Psylocke couldn't read his mind (and she's so fast she can make it seem like people she dismembered just fell apart apart without her moving) and had his speed compared to Daken's who uses pheromones to dull people's reactions so that it looks like he's teleporting."

I posted above that he has, at base, vampire level speed, sufficient to blitz other people. There are no shortage of unenhanced beings in Elder Scrolls who can army bust.

I'll repeat what you've said multiple times about one of the feats I mentioned and ask have vampires actually blitzed anyone noteworthy in terms of speed or just fodder? Even if so is there any indication that they move at Logan's speed?

So again, the idea that Logan can kill the greatest warrior, the most powerful Thu'um user, a demi-god, a literal divine prophet, before he can even say something, makes little sense.

The only thing I'm getting from this is "TLD is too powerful to be blitzed", there is absolutely no correlation there to his speed. I could say since Storm is hilariously more powerful than Logan being omega-potential and overall one of the most powerful mutants in the MU, has global feats and has handled people faster than her before then she couldn't possibly be blitzed by him, does that really sound like a convincing argument to you? Because it's not much different than you're claim here which seems to be the automatic response to Logan blitzing him. Also please answer this question because clearly the answer is no and if you see that then you should see the faulty in your logic. It doesn't matter if he could literally blink the world out of existence with a shout because unless there's proof he can shout basically at bullet speed then there's no reason to believe he can't be blitzed beforehand.

If you stop comparing demi-gods to fodder gunmen, it'll start to make a lot of sense.

Once you stop ignoring any feats or answer questions that threaten TLD losing then maybe we can have a decent debate, seriously I see why that other guy is frustrated with you. You admitted that there is no evidence to say he's as fast a Wolverine but you still believe it isn't possible and think it's ludicrous for others to believe it, you haven't answered my question in this whole post whether or not he can cast a spell or shout before Wolverine reaches him, you pretended that him blitzing four gunman was the only speed feat I provided and at the end you insulted my intelligence.

If you fully believe that TLD can't be blitzed by Wolverine then that's absolutely fine, but at the same time me believing the opposite is absolutely fine. So when you start to spill out these negative comments about others basically being too dumb to see your logic and acting as if you're absolutely right then you need to stop because something's obviously wrong. I'm fine debating this topic, I absolutely love Skyrim and I am fully willing and enjoying learning more about the lore and TLD and obviously you have a lot of information that I don't know about TLD, but you've got to be equally willing to listen to other's reasoning and arguments if you wanna have a decent debate and so far I haven't seen that from you. I've mostly seen you dismiss a whole paragraph of feats and claims without even acknowledging they were presented, and how do you expect someone to assess the feats you presented if you won't even look at theirs?

I have nothing against you, I'm honestly looking forward to TLD's respect thread, I do apologize for the more aggressive/frustrated tone in this post and I don't mind continuing this discussion but if these last responses is all you have to offer as a debater then it shouldn't continue.

@shepardoakenprime:

I have nothing against you, I'm honestly looking forward to TLD's respect thread, I do apologize for the more aggressive/frustrated tone in this post and I don't mind continuing this discussion but if these last responses is all you have to offer as a debater then it shouldn't continue.

Nobody gives a shit, frankly. If you don't like my reasoning, go somewhere else. I'll have an extensive rebuttal for you when I get home.

@i_like_swords:

I didn't want to get aggressive with you since I generally like you but you're tagging me over a trivial matter, with these arguments that I can't help but feel contempt for (since they have none of the empiricism that I think should underpin the Battle Forums) has forced my hand.

Bit dramatic.

I was intentionally being dramatic to lighten the mood before I start saying what I think of your opinions.

Their relationship with Akatosh are very different though.

Proof?

Artorius is a priest of Akatosh who can perform miracles, such as raising the dead, something TLD cannot do. Whereas TLD's connection is that he has the soul of a dragon. Whereas TLD's power is internal to himself, Artorius draws it from Akatosh as an external source, it seems, since sources claim Akatosh give him power to perform miracles.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Primate:_Rise_to_Glory

Here's a source that confirms Artorius can do things TLD cannot. Debate over.

The Dragonborn doesn't draw his power from Akatosh like Asteroth does

Proof?

, or at least not in the same way.

Both are covered by the umbrella of magic.

The nature of their power is different, just as the magnitude of it is.

You're right there. One guy was blessed with enough power to kill a god and save the world, and the other guy loses to the Vestige. I do wonder who the Time god is going to give priority to with regard to time powers, an over-zealous priest or someone who has literally been blessed with the soul of one of his children. I do wonder who is going to be better at using magical powers, the guy who is extremely powerful, or the guy who may as well be an insect.

I posted proof above, Artorius draws power directly to perform miracles.

Both of them being magic means next to nothing, since magic is so varied.

Considering Akatosh has been shown already to give abilities TLD doesn't have, that theory is crap.

Saying you find it hard to believe is basically the sum of the argument that you have presented so far. You have have not presented any proof, any statements, any scaling chains, any differentiation of feats, or even analysis of feats.

Not really. It makes perfect sense why an utter random wouldn't be as good as the Dragonborn at an ability that falls under the same umbrella of power - magic. Your refusal to accept such a simple line of inference is your own failing. Contrary to your own belief, you cannot simply hand-wave a logically inferred argument simply because it doesn't fit your own criteria of "proof." None of your counter-arguments have been evidence based. You just keep insisting there must be something profoundly different between their uses of time manipulation, despite the fact this is mentioned nowhere.

Anyway, we know for a fact "the world stands still" around for not only the Dragonborn, but even other random dragons who know this power. The Dragonborn has probably eaten hundreds of dragon souls. So this is essentially a waste of time now. I'm not going to pursue the point any further, aside from explaining something to you below.

After literally five seconds of research I was able to find a source that shows Artorius can do things the TLD cannot do, since he has Akatosh performing miracles for him. Since you're the one who is supposed to be the ES expert here, I think this entire debate is really down to your failings in knowledge - if you had know Artorius has performed miracles TLD couldn't replicate then you would never have tried to scale off him.

This conversation was always a waste of time, but you kept tagging me.

I'm pretty sure that I explained this to you already, how what I have been saying is different to an assertion.

You made the claim the TLD is the equal/superior time manipulator to Artorius, justifying this based on the former's superior standing in the verse.

I pointed out that since there are alternative interpretations to this that we can't take it to be true. You responded that my not proving this alternative/these alternatives means that we can disregard them.

Thanks for explaining the situation so well. I made the very simple to understand argument that if two guys are blessed by Akatosh, and one is a random priest who loses to relatively low tier characters, and the other is taking on and defeating the most powerful beings in Elder Scrolls, reading ludicrously powerful artifacts to enhance his powers, and is blessed with the immortal soul of a dragon, it is in no way difficult to figure who is better at using the same power.

You then proceeded to make arguments without evidence. Simply saying "what if Artorius is just better at this one power" is not a valid counter-argument.

An easier example of this to understand would be if Gorgon beat the shit out of Wolverine. Instead of taking the fight as intended - Gorgon is better than Wolverine - someone could say "but what if Wolverine had a bad day!", "what if Wolverine was holding back," "what if Wolverine was surprised by this new villain!" Sure, those are all possible interpretations. But none of them are based on anything. The only verifiable fact we have is that Gorgon beat the pants off of Wolverine, ergo, he's probably better than him.

The Dragonborn makes Artorius look like an insect, ergo, he's probably better than him at abilities they both use, abilities that fall under the same umbrella of magic and are both based on the effectiveness of the mage. If you are going to insist Artorius' use of time manipulation is somehow distinct, you need to prove it, because ultimately arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

When scaling you should compare like with like. It's also up to you to prove that they are alike in the first place... kinda pointless now since I proved that they are not alike.

Difference is we have explicit confirmation that Wolverine doesn't hold back in character against killers like The Gorgon and doesn't have any trouble with new villains due to adaptability/experience/Danger Room training. Logan actually does have bad days in canon and I've seen that argument used against him often, since he often forgets or loses the edge of his skill (he's had to go through refresher courses in that past).

I'm not sure if you know what that quote means, you can dismiss it in the sense you don't have to believe but you can't assume it is debunked. Anyway, Artorius explicitly is different the TLD and has performed feats using Akatosh that TLD is incapable of. So, whatever you say, a precedent is set that Artorius can do thing TLD is incapable of. What is for sure is that they're different to the degee that TLD doesn't get scaling.

The first sentence you just said is embarrassingly bad. That's some first post noob Viner grade material right there.

Kid, stop.

Aren't you like 18-20 IRL? I feel like I've heard you say that somewhere...

The fact that there is an alternative possibility that has not been debunked means that we can't accept any other interpretation yet.

So essentially, if you invent 99 different possibilities I need to prove the negative on all of them? That's not how it works. Embarrassing indeed.

No, if you've proved the original claim there wouldn't be 99 different possibilities. You could do it the long way by disproving the negatives but obviously just proving your claims outright would be easiest.

The two main distinctions are the people using them, who have different powersets generally, and the fact that they both used different types of magic.

You've said this about ten times now, and every time I ask for proof, you fail to provide. Funny that.

Pretty sure you never asked for proof until now, but you can find some above where I show Artorius can do feats TLD can't, like raise the dead.

If you want to scale one thing off another you first have to prove that they are similar, and you haven't. Thu'um and magic users generally display different types of effects with their magics, that alone means that we can't scale one of the other.

They are both types of magic, and magic in of itself has limitless application. The only constraints are the imagination and willpower of the mage. So this makes no sense, whatsoever. The only distinction between shouting and casting spells are the shouting and casting parts.

I've been told from an ES expert that they're both Tonal Architecture, so at the end of the day they're the same thing, but their in practise application are very different. Different magic users have different abilities and Thu'um users are at least as different than the normal difference we see between magic users. I'm bored of this, Thu'um and magic are broadly different, that much is obvious.

Well, it would be hard to explain why TLD needed to find the Walls for new words when he already had absorbed a Dragon's soul that should have given him at least one set of vocabularies that are intrinsic to all Dragons. Regardless, the stronger proof comes in the Greybeard's teaching TLD the second and third words of Unrelenting Force, which should be a basic Shout every dragon knows (since even Draugr know it), by transferring the knowledge directly into him.

It's likely due to the fact you can only comprehend so much raw data with a human brain. He has the skill of effortlessly absorbing the knowledge of dragons, but he still needs to interpret the information. That is why being given an understanding of Unrelenting Force, an identical understanding to that of another human being, directly sent to his brain, is useful.

But either way, he reads all the Word Walls, he kills a ton of dragons, he's more powerful than everyone else, he reads Shout-boosting artifacts nobody else has access to... it's not rocket science.

Thing is that there is no mention at all of him needing to interpret the memories of a dragon or his brain limiting his comprehension. We have no idea what Arngeir meant exactly but we can't just fill in the gaps like that, since there are more than one alternative one could come to. You could say the knowledge becomes subconscious/latent , for example. Or he gains knowledge without understanding.

No clue why you're talking about how quickly he learns shouts or his knowledge relative to the Greybeards, pretty sure the only point that I made was that he doesn't absorb all the knowledge from Dragon's he kills since the storyline acknowledges his needing to learn Thu'um, which he should've mastered by his first dragon kill if he truly absorbed their knowledge.

No, you just assumed that because he doesn't instantly master everything he absorbs from a dragon, that he must not absorb all of that knowledge. But no, it's a verifiable fact that he absorbs all of their knowledge and power, he then only needs to interpret it, which by his peak, he surely would have.

Never was it mentioned that he can acquire more through interpretation nor was it explicitly stated he gets it all. Regardless, I only care about the Shouting aspect of the knowledge he acquires. We have no evidence he ever "interpreted" all the knowledge, that is just an assumption on your part, just like it being a thing at all. For what it is worth, you can still be given quests from Arngeir about finding Word Walls even after you've done all the fanciest quests.

You can't prove TLD is the best at every Shout, since there is no confirmation that is the case.

I can make a pretty good argument for it, you can ignore it, and then we can go around in circles, as we've been doing.

Okay.

Lore wise it makes sense for TLD to be unequally skilled between the Shouts, though I admit that I can't prove it.

Bingo. You can't prove it.

Sure.

The character I had in mind was Jurgen Windcaller since I imagined his following The Way of the Voice made him more serene than TLD, since you asked what specific character.

The Greybeards, who are the culmination of Jurgen's teachings, would get utterly annihilated by the Dragonborn, Alduin or Miraak, so the idea that Jurgen Windcaller by himself is better than the Dragonborn at anything is nonsensical to say the least. Him being "more serene" isn't a coherent argument. He followed the Way of the Voice because he is a regular mortal, who was only ever blessed with the knowledge of Dragon Shouting in ancient times, so that men could avoid being wiped out by dragons. The Nords were ineffectively using the power of the Thu'um by using it to fuel their wars, and when Jurgen tried a different approach - pacifism - he became far more powerful than all of his contemporaries.

But as a Dragonborn, you are no mere mortal. You have the blood and soul of a dragon, the same will to dominate. Dragons value power above all else - to them, the more powerful you are, the deeper your understanding of the Thu'um is, because Shouting/fighting and debating are one in the same for dragons. So the Dragonborn using his power to successfully kill Alduin, a god, and Miraak, another Dragonborn with ludicrous levels of power and knowledge, proves he has a far better grasp of Shouting than Jurgen could ever attain.

But of course, to know all of that, you need to actually know what you're talking about, instead of just "raising possibilities" about how "serene Jurgen Windcaller is."

Right, so you have no actual proof of anything and can't even read my comments properly since you missed that I was merely using Jurgen as a symbolic representation within my own mind as the amalgamation of unknown Thu'um users, not actually making any explicit statements about him.

Lets just say that it is possible that some Thu'um user in history was better at any particular Shout than TLD.

Prove it.

Possibilities always exist unless we have confirmation that they don't. We don't have confirmation what eye color TLD had, so it could be any color. We don't have confirmation that he is the best at every Shout, so he might not be. I'm getting frustrated at your lack of understanding of basic logic, if I'm being frank.

Well, we don't know how fast the Dragonborn is.

Faster than people who can kill entire armies single handed, fast enough to kill the most powerful vampires in existence, regular vampires being strong enough to blitz people, etc. He's pretty fast, being a god-killing demigod.

I've talked to an ES expert and he told me that the vampires can't blitz, so I'll ask for proof that the type of vampire TLD is can blitz. Also, I would like proof he is faster than people who can kill armies single handed.

Since characters are taken to have to work their way up with feats, rather than down with anti-feats, we take the minimum and the appropriate answer to this question is Logan blitzes, I guess.

And I guess we can just say anything and it'll come true, and we just don't need to prove anything we say, I guess. Possibilities and all that.

Now you're just mocking since TLD has no speed feats and you know it.

You can dismiss Logan having Thu'um in the sense that you don't have to believe it but you can't prove it isn't true.

Nobody has to prove it isn't true, because there's no evidence for it. The same thing with everything you've said so far.

Absence of evidence isn't proof of absence.

Dragonborn threads are always full of NLF and flat out condescension when regarding the arguments made for the character. Like, it happens every single time. I'd still say he/she stops at Diana though.

@i_like_swords: Then please don't bother, spend your time doing something progressive. I said I have a problem with your condescending tone, I said nothing about your reasoning, there's no point in debating if you can't show some decent amount of respect even if someone is trying to claim the impossible. If all you really have to say is "no one gives a shit" to me then clearly your rebuttal won't reflect anything less offensive.

Have a good day and just move on for both our sakes because there doesn't look to be anything positive coming from this debate.

@shepardoakenprime: @alphaq: I'm going to leave a final statement and argument on this speed thing, then move on.

On "Empirical Proof"

Let me premise this by saying something I think we're all aware of; if you're asking for empirical proof the Dragonborn can't be speedblitzed by Logan, you probably won't be satisfied with my post. We are talking about a character who's feats, however lofty, are almost entirely experienced through gameplay. You guys are referencing feats like "Wolverine can catch bullets" and asking me to empirically prove the Dragonborn can also catch bullets... in a universe where guns don't exist.

There are plenty of good speed feats in ES, even by relatively low-tier, unimpressive characters in relation to the Dragonborn, who is essentially the most powerful, divinely blessed, most skilled warrior Skyrim has ever seen. But as alphaq has already demonstrated, that isn't quite empirical proof. The Dragonborn can be the most powerful vampire, but hey, what if the type of vampire who can speedblitz people is just an especially fast vampire, amirite? Even though that's said nowhere, it's a possibility, right? Or the Dragonborn can be the greatest warrior of a land where dudes have wiped out whole armies single handed, but hey, maybe the Dragonborn is somehow the greatest warrior ever but also slower than these particular army busters. Maybe these army busters are just distinctly fast, even though that is said nowhere. Oh well. I guess the Dragonborn can in one context be killing gods but in another be slower than utter randoms, because that makes sense. Possibilities and all that.

I could post a speed feat of a total loser, and say the Dragonborn is faster than him. But then alphaq will say "Well, the Dragonborn might have defeated Alduin, a God, without being very fast."

So then I post a good strength feat of some loser, but hey, the Dragonborn might have beaten Miraak without needing to be very strong.

Or durable.

Or powerful.

Or skilled.

Or anything.

He defeats them, somehow, but because we don't see exactly how you defeat these godly beings, we cannot ascribe any special talents to the Dragonborn.

The Dragonborn can defeat the most powerful opponents in the series, but simultaneously, be worse than any number of random, low-tier characters in any number of categories, and still pull it off. How someone who is good at absolutely nothing, is capable of defeating Gods, I'm not sure, but apparently that's how it works.

But, no, on a serious note, there comes a time where you need to be reasonable. No, I can't empirically prove the Dragonborn can catch bullets, or has ever reacted to a Wolverine tier character. But at the same time, he has no given upper limit. As alphaq said:

Absence of evidence isn't proof of absence.

Which is correct. The Dragonborn has never been given an upper limit on his speed. His speed has been left ambiguous. There are certain qualities of his that are empirically proven, like his ability to leave the likes of Wolverine a splattered mess on the wall, but one of them isn't how quickly he can speedblitz fodder ninjas or dodge bullets. So that doesn't mean Wolverine is "empirically" capable of speedblitzing the Dragonborn. All it means is, in the absence of clarity on his speed, you two utter geniuses have decided Wolverine speedblitzes him, because he happens to be pretty fast. Congrats, you've cast an empirical judgement on something that is inherently speculative and subjective at best. Great job proving jack-shit.

"Then please don't bother, spend your time doing something progressive"

Apparently, asking someone to prove the impossible to you, empirically, is a progressive use of your time. Apparently, insisting that Wolverine can speedblitz the ultimate badass of a series filled with countless creatures, mages, gods, etc, simply because their speed was left somewhat ambiguous, is a progressive use of your time.

But me merely pointing out that, logically, if a writer actually wrote the Dragonborn versus Wolverine, the fight would not end with his head cut off before he can react, is totes unprogressive and unempirical. We know he has superhuman speed, we know he takes on threats Wolverine couldn't dream of facing, we know he is the greatest warrior Skyrim has ever seen, and so on. But no, let's just insist to the point of nagging absurdity that Wolverine would just cut his head, cause "feats or gtfo."

Likewise, I have nothing against either of you, in fact I mentioned nothing personal about either of you until you both went and got offended and started whinging about how "condescending" I am. Yet, you're both such snowflakes that you're simultaneously allowed to get offended by me... debating with you... but can also cast judgements on my own character, such as:

I'm getting frustrated at your lack of understanding of basic logic, if I'm being frank.

but if these last responses is all you have to offer as a debater then it shouldn't continue.

I mean this with the greatest respect and concern for both of you: you're both presenting yourselves like utter morons who cannot work anything out for yourselves unless it's presented to you by an omniscient narrator in a comic, and are also acting like total snowflakes who cannot handle an at-worst detached debating tone without whinging and crying about being condescended to. I sincerely hope you both work to remedy this before you spill any more internet tears over someone else.

Regarding Speed

He strikes faster than his opponents can register, appearing behind ninjas he detects across a street in a moment, turns and attacks gunmen before they got shots off from behind him, catches bullets and even has a feat where he kills four men before Mr. Sinister can finish saying a word. Like I said, if they turn into prolonged battles then he could take 2 and 3 but I don't see that happening in a majority when both characters could end the battle by the time he even opens his mouth.

Striking faster than an opponent can register is something we can clearly in this trailer, even against superhuman dremora and groups of Imperial soldiers, by the three main characters. In fact, the slowest of the bunch casually manhandles superhumanly fast Werewolves. So providing we can agree that these three random characters aren't above TLD, who is considered the greatest warrior, in history and who has taken out threats that would contemptuously handwave all three of them out of existence easily... we have a speed feat.

In fact, in this trailer, we even see the rogue react to a blast of lightning from a mage who was wiping out groups of soldiers with the same lightning before they could react. And yes, magic lightning is real lightning in ES.

If you think reacting to lightning is insufficient speed to merely get out a word before Logan cuts your head off, then maybe you will be able to use your imagination and work out that the Dragonborn, being a demi-god, is probably just a bit faster than the random Breton rogue in the video. But who knows, random rogue #47 could just be divinely blessed with speed, huh?

As for proof of the speed of vampires:

The ancient creature waited until the four were almost out of the cemetery, talking amiably, making plans for spending their share of the reward. He judged carefully who would be the greatest threat, and then launched himself at the sorceress. Had Phlaxith not turned his attention back from the gate, she would have been ripped to shreds before she had a chance to scream.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Incident_in_Necrom

The vampire would have "ripped her to shreds" before she could scream, not just kill her, rip her to shreds, which is multiple attacks completed before her brain register them and promptly scream in pain. This is some random vampire, whereas TLD in addition to all of his own inherent abilities, has the vampiric blessing of Molag Bal, a god, with said god's blood running through his veins. Thus, as Harkon states in the Dawnguard DLC, the Volkihar vampires are "the most powerful" and "far more than a normal vampire."

Of course, if you want to be nebulous to the point of absurdity, like alphaq, you can insist that random vampire #28 must simply be an especially fast kind of vampire, faster than the most powerful vampires ever, and faster than the Dragonborn. But then, you could also just not.

And then there's the feat I mentioned before:

Written on the Word Wall where you learn the Shout Whirlwind Sprint, Wynjolf the Whirlwind, is credited with killing an army of orcs single handed. Of course, being as nebulous as you guys, we can just say that Wynjolf the Whirlwind, who's grave is next to the Whirlwind Sprint Word Wall, probably didn't use Whirlwind Sprint to kill this army of orcs. He probably used some other power to amplify his speed to army-killing proportions, right?

But you know what, that's fine. Let's say this random nobody killed an army of orcs only partially or not at all benefiting from Whirlwind Sprint. Now we have some random loser who with his own inherent speed, can destroy armies single handed. And since we know via three sources that the Dragonborn is the best warrior the Nords have ever had, you would need to be a whole new level of nebulous to try and argue this random loser is still faster than the Dragonborn.

And last time I checked, Wolverine isn't so fast he speedblitzes army busters.

So there you go, that's the best I think anyone can do in proving how fast the greatest warrior ever, army of dragon slaying, demi-god is, who has been given no upper limits on his speed, other than being superhuman and better than everyone else. If you can still, with a straight face, try and argue that Wolverine would cut this guy's head off before he can even loose one word, I have nothing left to offer you. At that point, this debate will have descended into realms of stupid even I have no patience for, but somehow, I think you guys might find a way to do it.

Closing Point

I have no hard feelings against either of you, but if you're going to start talking about my ability to "understand basic logic" and what I have to offer "as a debater", then don't be surprised when your half-baked ideas of "empiricism" and "debating" get blown to pieces.

@i_like_swords: I've just skimmed your post and I can only respond later right now I'm busy with study. The only thing I'll comment on now is that a full reading of that source about the vampire's speed reveals that it was nowhere near a speedblitz. Here's a slightly longer version.

There was no frenzied scream or howl. Nothing rushed forward towards them. The final attack when it happened was so unlike the others that the questors were taken utterly by surprise.

The ancient creature waited until the four were almost out of the cemetery, talking amiably, making plans for spending their share of the reward. He judged carefully who would be the greatest threat, and then launched himself at the sorceress. Had Phlaxith not turned his attention back from the gate, she would have been ripped to shreds before she had a chance to scream.

The vampire knocked Massitha across a stone, its claws raking across her back, but stopped its assault in order to block a blow from Phlaxith's sword. It accomplished this maneuver in its own brutal way, by tearing the warrior's arm from its socket. Osmic and Nitrah set on it, but they found themselves in a losing battle. Only when Massitha had pulled herself back up from behind the pile of rocks, weak and bleeding, that the fight turned. She cast a magickal ball of flame at the creature, which so enraged it that it turned back to her. Nitrah saw her opening and took it, beheading the vampire with a stroke of her sword.

The words proceeding that part you put up makes it clear that the quest goers were "taken utterly by surprise", meaning that him actually reaching her and attacking her before she could react would have had nothing to do with speed, or next to nothing. It was only pure luck that she happened to sense him coming but when she did sense him coming, she reacted by swinging her sword at him. So two pieces of vital information - that it was a stealth attack and that she did react when she sensed him, were left out by the piece you presented. I'll do you the courtesy of assuming you saw that quote second-hand and weren't aware of the full passage and that you didn't intentionally leave those bits out to deceive. Also someone who has been ripped to any number of piece cannot scream, the entire process might take longer than just the length it takes to scream.

@alphaq:

The words proceeding that part you put up makes it clear that the quest goers were "taken utterly by surprise", meaning that him actually reaching her and attacking her before she could react would have had nothing to do with speed, or next to nothing.

I made it very clear in my post that the important part was, the vampire would have attacked her multiple times, "ripping her to shreds", before she could scream. It takes less than a second for your brain to register pain and start screaming. It was not a clinical slice to the throat, it was a clawed vampire ripping her apart. Multiple attacks in less time than that it takes for your brain to register pain and scream. Her being surprised is irrelevant.

Please stop being pedantic. I know far more than you ever will about Elder Scrolls, I think I know how to read a source in it's entirety.

Composite Dragonborn has feats casually destroying cosmic level beings, he literally clears this with absolute ease in that case.

@i_like_swords: I was gonna tag you again, but good to see you've tagged me, anyway I just wanted to point out that the Dragonborn failed to react to a lightning spell when he first met Miraak, meaning we can't scale him off that rogue (even if you take that feat as legit) since he's failed on-screen to do so.

The words proceeding that part you put up makes it clear that the quest goers were "taken utterly by surprise", meaning that him actually reaching her and attacking her before she could react would have had nothing to do with speed, or next to nothing.

I made it very clear in my post that the important part was, the vampire would have attacked her multiple times, "ripping her to shreds", before she could scream. It takes less than a second for your brain to register pain and start screaming. It was not a clinical slice to the throat, it was a clawed vampire ripping her apart. Multiple attacks in less time than that it takes for your brain to register pain and scream. Her being surprised is irrelevant.

You posted that feat after I asked you what proof you had vampires can speedblitz people, as you've said several times. So it seems only right to assume you meant it to be a blitz, but if you didn't then what is your actual proof that vampires can blitz, then?

It doesn't have to be surgical or precise at all. He could ripped both her arms off before she screamed or ripped her head off or ripped her body in half or just sliced her with his claws (considering that also creates shreds) before she screamed. Speed-wise that isn't impressive at all, even if it isn't just a common expression writers use all the time for brutalization. It could mean he was gonna land between one or an infinite number of attacks but since we have no reason not to, we should assume one attack since it's standard practise to have characters work their way up with explicit feats.

Also don't assume she maintained the ability to react or scream throughout this hypothetical attack. Oh, and your brain and body do work faster when you know you're in danger.

Please stop being pedantic. I know far more than you ever will about Elder Scrolls,

Well, you clearly know more about magic since you seem to have the power of foresight, lol.

I think I know how to read a source in it's entirety.

Sooooooo, why didn't you post the feat with all its commentary like I did?