Composite Darth Sidious vs Jean Grey

Sidious has access to all feats and amps from Legends and Canon

Jean is determined to kill Sidious no matter what and is going all out.

R1- Base Jean Grey

R2- Green Phoenix Jean Grey

R3- Dark Phoenix Jean Grey

Fight begins on the Moon.

R1: Palpatine

R2: Phoenix

R3: Phoenix

Feats for this guy? I really don't care for Star wars.

Think Storm's lightning, but like, 5 times above that

Pretty sure there's a solar system wide force storm at one point.

@professorrespect: This is complicated, as Storm's lightning is not always at the same potency.

@professorrespect: Creates Force storms (lightning basically) that annihilate massive fleets.

@waitomegastorm: He can warp minds on a galactical level, his mere existence was a wound in the Force, his telekinesis can be used on huge ships, he can create wormholes/storms that can swallow whole fleets of huge spaceships, his presence is enough to corrupt or kill people, even those trained in the Force, he’s a master lightsaber duelist and can move way beyond the speed of light and that pretty much sums it all for me I guess.

I can see him win first round rather easily and the second 5/10 and with huge difficulties but he can’t win the last round.

@guzmania: Impressive, so he clearly stomps Base Jean, against GP I think he has one chance, but would lose to DP.

@waitomegastorm: Yup exactly but he’d have to go all out if he hopes to beat GP Jean I think

Round 1: Sidious

Round 2: Jean

Round 3: Jean

Jean all rounds

His range with TP is above hers, but Jeans TP combat / skill feats are miles above his

Lol just to throw a wrench into Green Phoenixs arguments....remember that the reason Jean was dead for 13 years was because a guy pretending to be Magneto oneshot Green Phoenix with an Electromagnetic pulse....shes not unbeatable

How strong is his tp ability? It seems like he has a longe range but it doesn't tell much about it since characters like Saturn Girl have it as well but in terms of a pure telepathic battle isn’t combat applicable.

Can't Jean just turn Sidious’s mind off?

I believe he should at least be strong enough to protect himself and use one of his many, many abilities to pull a win

@cruelrain: These respect threads (RotJ and a larger one) showcase Darth Sidious's telepathy, which include dominating nearly 20 billion people on the planet Byss, and using Battle Meditation on tens of trillions of people across the galaxy in his empire.

Devils Advocate for Jean.....Pink Form

It shows potency and raw power but mind controlling is something entirely different than attacking.

Show me feats of him actually using his "TP" offensively in a combat situation especially against an Omega Mutant with powerful telepathy

@cruelrain: Telepathy is rarely or rather never used that way in SW I believe, it’s always about either persuading or dominating minds and if you’re somewhat strong enough in the Force, those have no effect on you so it all depends on the power and I believe that EU Sidious is pretty close to being able to destroy the galaxy but then again my knowledge of SW is not extensive

@cruelrain: Telepathy is barely or rather never used that way in SW I believe, it’s always about either persuading or dominating minds and if you’re somewhat strong enough in the Force, those have no effect on you so it all depends on the power and I believe that EU Sidious is pretty close to being able to destroy the galaxy but then again my knowledge of SW is not extensive

i am going with jean all rounds but i only know a little about palp so i could be wrong.

but phoenix probably stomps

@koays: it was a planetary em pulse directly to the brain after she came out the Sun which produces em pulses far greater than planetary and after she said the Phoenix was not going to let her stay (live) for long...context is key. Green Phoenix closed a blackhole that was going to swallow the universe (later retconned to be the multiverse when the scope of the Mkraan crystal was expanded). Force users are lacking in tp combat and skill feats that Marvel children do easily. Jean can gives a good fight in base form. Phoenix rounds she stomps and destroys his universe out of spite for people comparing that Force nonsense to real telepathy.

Going with Jean all rounds, Death Sidios can't really defend himself from telepathy on Jean's level

@lordofallhumans: Eh....your right ish.

Green Phoenix repaired the M'Krann Crystal from inside. The Crystal its self is a nexus and CAN destroy the universe but repairing it doesnt mean she can close blackholes....essentially she fixed the crystal so the problem fixed itself.

As far as the planetary EMP, Sidious creating Force Storms through space is comparable to what Xorneto was wielding. Theres an argument that the Phoenix betrayed Jean, but it doesnt say how and given the themes in that arc I'd argue that it just wasnt going to ressurect her, not that it was somehow going to let her no sell a stroke.

Green Phoenix is barely low planetary at best judging by feats alone which shes limited to here.

I'm allowing some hype and scaling to other base Phoenix forms, but Jean even taking out a large island would be in question as Green Phoenix without the scaling.

Sidious here is amped by all previous Sith and has all his Dark Empire feats and EU scaling. The fact alone that he can reach out and dominate trillions without this amp is still a huge argument for his strength here and can seriously be debated against Phoenix barring cosmic shenanigans.

@koays: if the breach in the crystal was going to suck everything in like a blackhole and she sealed it she effectively closed a blackhole. The em attack was not instant death and in this particular battle there's no reason to believe the Phoenix won't protect her from or simply undo the damage. We've had discussions about mind control on large scales being impressive but they are not actual battle feats and mind controlling featless fodder is still mind controlling featless fodder regardless of their number. Proof of resistance being overcome is needed to make it viable in this instance. Yeah it's powerful but what psi shield did it crash? It also doesn't speak to her being in the Sun which produces em pulses more powerful than planetary one or that it needed to de directly focused on her brain. No random em pulses would have harmed her at all and as stated she was meant to die because of her neglect. Green Phoenix is a state of mind not a level of power which is why she had to consciously put blocks on the power, not that the power had a natural cap on it.

Bump

Jean stomps all rounds

round 1 - sidious

round 2 and 3 go to phoenix

I’m late. Oh, well, bumpity bump.

No, they are correct in that Sidious is superior in range solely. The feat of controlling billions is right in Jean’s range, with telepaths like Shadow King mind-controlling everyone on Earth. Guess who is considered Shadow King’s equal and also has three feats of reaching around an entire planet full of billions of minds? Charles Xavier, whom Jean in her current state is above. Hell, Jean herself has a feat of reaching around the world for the pain of everyone and converging it on someone.

Even if it were true, though, Jean has a psionic pink form that has the capability of draining beings more powerful than Sidious to amp her telekinesis. So, no, it ain’t gonna be a stomp by any stretch. Whether Sidious wins or not is debatable.

As for telepathic skill, it isn’t a mental hoop made up by Jean fans. DC and Star Wars May favor power, but Marvel literally established for X-Men psychics that skill is just as, if not more, important as power. Skill could(and has on occasion) make or break a telepathic battle. The most famous example being Emma Frost vs Rachel Summers, the former having more skill, but the latter having more power.

@azghawgzs: How’s he gonna do that when Phoenix can just block it with her tk shields?

Red head dead

@eredin12: 1) Controlling fodder is lesser than controlling different races with technology or skill that resists telepathic probing, all of which Xavier, Shadow King, and Jean have experience in.

2) Jean is the one draining. She has the power to drain psychic energy to amp herself, ranging from non-telepaths to cosmic beings like Galactus and the Phoenix Force.

3) Telepathic skill is the complicated stuff a telepath does with their powers, like psionic surgery, nerve control, and such. Skill has many different applications, especially in a telepathic battle. Example: Tessa, known as Sage, is a very weak telepath compared to most telepaths, yet an untrained Psylocke before meeting the X-Men is stomped by Tessa through pure skill.

Emma Frost on the otherhand is not a telepath with simply skill only. She has both power and skill.

Her power comparably to Rachel Summers, and by extension Jean Grey, whose Rachel’s mother, is lesser though, which is why the feat is notable of skill over power. Rachel’s powers are described as off-the-charts, yet she wasn’t Emma’s equal for being untrained. Emma Frost is well-known for her incredible skill in X-Men comics. Take the time she dominated Xavier. Under normal circumstances, in a regular battle, Xavier would stomp Emma with equal skill, but superior power. Yet, there was an instance where Emma found a way into Xavier’s head without Xavier noticing and when she did, she installed a series of blocks, inhibitors, and failsafe’s that Xavier could not break free of. That is what skill could be capable of in the X-Men universe, which is why there is such a repeated argument that skill should be factored.

R1,2 Sidious i guess , R3 Jean shous stomp.

Jean all rounds

Can't Sidious just speedblitz?

If not, then he loses round 3 after winning the first 2.

@zgbsgagaz: Even the last one?

The Sith would win round one soundly. Base Jean is a joke compared to him.

On the other hand, Green Phoenix Jean defeated Firelord by throwing an attack backed by the power of the sun, and Dark Phoenix ate a star. Phoenix Jean beats him.

Actually, what happened with the M'Krann Crystal thing is there was a breach in the energy matrix which allowed the negative environment within to seep out. If left unchecked, it would've eventually swallowed our reality and then overflowed into the others. All Phoenix Jean did was stitch that energy matrix back together. This is not a universal or multiversal feat by any means, though she did save everything by preventing this catastrophe. On top of that, she needed the life force of the other X-Men to boost her to accomplish this feat.

@pyrofn said:

I’m late. Oh, well, bumpity bump.

I @eredin12 said:

Palpatine stomps first round, lol at Palpatine only having range above her, his telepathy feats are not just speaking across the galaxy, he can mind control billions of people, scan minds of trillions, those are all feats of raw telepathic power that stomps her, and LMAO at mind control being difirent than attacking, that is literaly its defintion, mind control is attacking somone with telepathy and making him your toy, that is attacking by definition, just because Jean has more TP bettles does not mean she is close to Palpatine in telepathy, his feats of TP power are miles above her, he just did not have any rival in star wars to fight him in telepathic bettle because he was by far most powerful and could easily dominate almost anyone, and also telepathic skill does not exist, level of mental gymnastics some Jean fans will use reminds me of Storm fans

Phoenix probably wins other rounds

No, they are correct in that Sidious is superior in range solely. The feat of controlling billions is right in Jean’s range, with telepaths like Shadow King mind-controlling everyone on Earth. Guess who is considered Shadow King’s equal and also has three feats of reaching around an entire planet full of billions of minds? Charles Xavier, whom Jean in her current state is above. Hell, Jean herself has a feat of reaching around the world for the pain of everyone and converging it on someone.

Even if it were true, though, Jean has a psionic pink form that has the capability of draining beings more powerful than Sidious to amp her telekinesis. So, no, it ain’t gonna be a stomp by any stretch. Whether Sidious wins or not is debatable.

As for telepathic skill, it isn’t a mental hoop made up by Jean fans. DC and Star Wars May favor power, but Marvel literally established for X-Men psychics that skill is just as, if not more, important as power. Skill could(and has on occasion) make or break a telepathic battle. The most famous example being Emma Frost vs Rachel Summers, the former having more skill, but the latter having more power.

Jean Grey is nowhere near Classic Shadow King's power nor does she approach Classic Xavier. Furthermore, Jean's feat of reaching around the world and feeling everyone's pain was considered lower than when X-Man projected a message telepathically to everyone on Earth.

Jean has no feats to compete with Shadow King mind-controlling the planet, him being strong enough to defeat both Xavier and Jean put together, etc.

@pyrofn: Okay, you've just said too many false statements. First of all, the Jean/Galactus feat is PIS for many reasons. Let's start with the basics of how the pink form works:

1) Jean drains ambient psionic energy given off by every person. That is why when she battled Xavier Junior the first time, she was able to catch him off-guard by siphoning energy from the psionic attacks he was throwing around. She's not able to drain direct psionic attacks of focused energy (hence she can be defeated in psychic combat).

That said, Galactus was not emitting enough psionic energy to hurt himself. This is a guy who can do things like take naps in the core of stars, move entire galaxies with a wave of his hand, and destroy the universe when he's not PIS'd. There was not enough free floating psionic energy on that planet to even scratch an itch on him, otherwise, that planet (and likely the solar system) would've been reduced to cinders before she could grab onto it. Also, there is no evidence she can drain that much energy and survive.

2) Galactus is equal in power or even stronger than the Phoenix Force in some stories. Given that the Phoenix Force draws psionic energy from future generations in the universe, that's a MUCH deeper well of power than a single planet's population which Jean drew energy from. So, the energy Jean wielded there was inconsequential compared to the power both Galactus and the Phoenix Force wields. She shouldn't have been able to affect him at all. In order for Jean to be strong enough to hurt Galactus, she would've had to merge with the Phoenix Force to become its next host.

3) He could've turned the psionic energy Jean absorbed back upon her as he has feats to demonstrate this power.

Finally, Emma's power was stated to rival Xavier's. There are no such comments made about Jean in canon without the Phoenix Force boosting her.

@stormcell: the crystal is multiversal. A single breach in it will destroy existence. She sealed the breach. It's a multiversal feat because it was resealing the nexus of all realities. She didn't use their life force for a boost, she used it to anchor herself to reality, and IIRC it was only Storm and Corsair.

First of all, let's get the size of the Crystal for scope: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/3cFwo4efvYUe4_KmkpPTEV3F9xZ3jiPjW4GRMKFmufKk16MJmsj3xJmAEqN-_nLfeV6jWowYs1yv=s1600

Now, let's get into the details about what happened:

1) Scott's optic blasts created a rupture in the crystal sphere: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/m3bwPhKOL_Xu1I4ikz79cs4ivkQ4cIKV_7qjoGjYFShmFh2q-ku-lrCcKT8eMsMnvlMaH7tJKBC1=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/1lkNMRsQtl_p6sX5SK_1TKyIdp9H7ZU9YqryyCfIVD8B25y4zWhHASxb9YHk3CdUROfOe23Qto0X=s1600

2) Phoenix Force Jean seeks to knit the wounded lattice matrix back together again before its deterioration passes the point of no return. This matrix is what keeps the n-galaxy within the crystal in check so it doesn't destroy the universe:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/bp0XW_ltcfNBh0Ne2SS6ngBDNqEhEJ47mvRfmVJOYtTN3bUv6_lAxiyK8RLkA7MbG3uKPz2Nun4z=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/8jcFJZ8qWf-9aoLz3SD_AhkvpkOhhnDcmqIOowQvP24Zo7Yu84wVf_RHk0aLgGOoZN34MQ-IHU2y=s1600

Notice how she doesn't have the strength to do it alone as the issue states plainly that her best is nowhere near good enough. So, I was right, she didn't have anywhere near the power to repair the lattice energy matrix.

3) She becomes one with the lattice and sews it together: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/afcMjhG3awjgesT0__-8MisGUSzf60hmCd3olK7OqvEXWDHZG5YHRf_D4ok3XcHeYc-4skTS74vy=s1600

So, as a metaphor, pretend like the lattice is a waterhose that restricts/directs water from an outdoor faucet turned on. Now, image a breach in the water hose. The hose represents the lattice energy matrix, and the water flowing through the hose represents the n-galaxy. All Jean did was sew the hole in the water hose which prevented the water from leaking through the breach.

The issue flat out stated that she was not powerful enough to sew the lattice matrix on her own, and if it deteriorated, it was obvious that the n-galaxy would spill out and be FAR beyond her power to contain.

So, basically, it's as I said. If the n-galaxy were allowed to spill out, it would eventually fill this universe, sucking it all in, before overflowing to other realities. This is no multiversal feat, though the consequences of her actions saved the multiverse from the n-galaxy.

@stormcell:I’m gonna answer you this once. Don’t tag me again after you make your reply, cuz I don’t plan on it afterwards.

1) Wrong. YOU scale it lesser than X-Man projecting his message around the world. No one, and I mean NO ONE, had ever stated that this feat was less than X-Man’s projection feat. The only discrepancy is as to what Jean was projecting in X-Man’s brain. The common argument was that either Jean was projecting the pain from D’Bari’s destruction or that she was projecting the pain X-Man caused across the planet, with the most common agreement being that it was Earth’s pain over D’Bari’s.

Either way you look at it, Jean is projecting the pain of billions across an entire planet into X-Man. So for you to say that it’s lesser is a false analysis very typical of you.

2) Shadow King never faced Jean and Xavier together. He faced an entire X-Men team with Jean, who had barely got her telepathy back and was not used to it yet, and Xavier in it, but that instance was him being amped by Polaris joining the Astral Plane with the real world, where he tapped into Earth’s populations negative energy across the planet, which in turn fueled him. Stop lying.

3) And? Jean’s mention of the energy Junior used to attack her is an implication she was directly absorbing it.

“I mean, I can’t imagine he would be hammering me with all his crazy psychic powers if he knew I could do this.”

Yes, she can get hurt. She just isn‘t impervious to the effects. Its a case similar to Bishop, instead of Black King. Bishop can feel the damage by the attacks used on him, but he is still amped by said attacks. Black King is not hurt and gets all the benefits. Jean is basically Bishop.

4) Stop treating it as if Jean’s pink form makes her vulnerable. It doesn’t. Jean was getting hurt because she was an untrained telepath facing a character who had more experience in telepathic combat that she did at that time. That weakness does not apply to an adult current Jean Grey.

5) You are making awfully bold claims for an entity who needs to eat planets to survive. I’m gonna need to see feats for the claims you are making.

6) Galactus isn’t entirely impervious. He is an entity that needs to constantly feed to sustain himself. Beings far weaker than he, ranging from Thor to the Silver Surfer, have all harmed him in his state of hunger. It is not a stretch to believe that a character siphoning energy from Galactus, his herald, an entire, planet, and the Phoenix Force itself would be capable of harming him.

7) News Flash: The Phoenix Force, the nexus of all psionic energy, is there too. Jean is draining way more than simply the ambient energy of a planet and Galactus.

8) Oh, please. Your perception of Jean’s limits is below that of Emma Frost, who has way more trouble handling the Phoenix Force than Jean does. As Psylocke stated, Jean’s mind is vast enough to contain the Phoenix Force and Jean has on multiple occasions shown to do just that. So, you are exactly the last person I will take for a measuring of what Jean can take.

9) Jean was drawing energy from the Phoenix Force. She literally says where is she is getting the energy from!

10) Galactus could have done just what you said if he saw it coming to begin with. Considering the biggest player on the field was the Phoenix herself, I am pretty sure it’s safe to say he was massively distracted with feeding on her energy.

11) *sigh*

The funny part is, I have shown you these canonical scans before, but you have not once given a scan stating Emma is a rival to Xavier. But, considering there is an audience present, I will show you and everyone again how wrong you are.

Jean has been stated multiple times to be a rival or surpassing Xavier.

Finally finished. Whether you think I’m right or wrong, and I know you won’t change your tune one bit, make your final case, but after you do, don’t tag me anymore, please and thank you.

@stormcell: the Mkraan crystal is a multiversal object so that's where you metaphor falls short. It's a simplistic explanation for something much grander, and nothing more.

She used their life force as anchors, not to seal the crystal. She didn't have the strength to stay anchored to the human plane so she used two people to anchor her to that plane. It's right there in your scan. You stopped at the word strength and ignored context, per usual and thus here we are discussing another blatant misinterpretation to lowball. That'll be all, we're done here. Save your next dissertation for somebody that doesn't know what you are.