T'Challa is the Black Panther – a righteous king, noble Avenger, and fearsome warrior. Under his leadership, the African nation of Wakanda has flourished as one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. And though he’s a card-carrying member of the Avengers, his first loyalty lies with his people, and he will defend them to his last breath.
Jungle Action Part One: What Makes Black Panther Competetive
When it comes to tournaments, debates, matches like these, combat skills can make or break your stance. Especially so with street-level characters like Black Panther. As well as being against the manga martial artists, in which even the most insignificant punch has a full breakdown. And at this point, it's almost a requirement to have studied all known martial arts in the world and known to man. T'challa is no different:
Training to fight the unknown and adapting to all circumstances, eventualities, and possibilities. Even against those who have trained their entire lives studying him and to defeat him. Notably, T'challa picks up and adapts styles foreign to him just from watching his opponents. This has allowed him to create a martial art entirely his own. This being Shadow Combat:
The Ultimates Vol. 2 #5
Which will be explained later and in further detail. But to put things into perspective; T'Challa has been groomed to be a warrior since birth. He is considered to be one of the best martial artists to have ever walked the Earth. He has stalemated, and at times even gained the upper hand against various highly skilled martial artists such as Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Fist, and many other dangerous opponents in hand-to-hand combat. He was able to overpower Wolverine twice without much difficulty, even when Wolverine was using his claws. Captain America himself said that when he won against T'Challa, T'Challa was not his usual self, seeming weaker than he was. Such pedigree and distinction should more than serve as a solid foundation to establish T'challa as a genuine competitor in this tournament.
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Claws of the Panther King: Combat Prowess and Martial Skill
So let's talk about the practicality and application of skills. I want to revisit Shadow Combat, the term coined by Al Ewing and my umbrella name for T'challa's particular brand of mixed martial arts.
T'challa's opponent here is Lt. Kathy Ling of the Troubleshooters. She is a techno-kinetic who can employ technopathy to control an extremely powerful psi-armor. She even went so far as completely strip T'challa of his armor, weapons, and gadgetry while still in possession of her own as well as being a match for him physically. Yet T'challa defeats her soundly within three moves. Take note how T'challa doesn't employ ordinary evasion but completely changes his body position and angle using his agility combined with his opponents. This forces Ling to overcommit multiple times and leaves her open to a counterattack. T'challa jumps high into the air and disrupts her chi and balance centers with one strike.
In two moves, T'challa makes a massive vertical leap, using gravity to land a blow to the top of his skull, then flips around, and aims two blows to his spine and kidney immediately. T'challa's constant motion and agility keep him from being effectively countered and he counters the werewolf's lunge with a disorienting blow to the chin, climbing his back and ultimately using the momentum, leverage and advantageous position to snap his neck. T'challa's agility circumvent's raw speed in such a way in that it removes conventional offensive and defensive maneuvers. As he uses both his and his opponent's body to his supreme advantage. Even against more established and skilled opponents like a bloodlusted Iron Fist:
BP Vol. 3 #39
The reason I find this is so impressive is that T'challa can use his superior agility to control his battle with Danny. While Danny wasn't exactly at his Sunday Best here, still being able to completely control and lockdown Danny's body and movement allowing him to land blows (that could have been fatal were he not holding back) against an opponent of comparable skill and arguably greater speed. And this is all while underwater. Which leads me to the second aspect of shadow combat. That being the stealth/shadow itself.
Notice how T'challa despite Danny coming out what couldn't have been a second later completely disappears from Rand's sight. Which is honestly insane. Given that he vanished in the middle of a lake. Leaving no trail or trace of his presence behind. This is also consistent with his physical blows and more importantly nerve strikes. Something he employs consistently alongside striking vital areas of the body. Like when he stealthily induced nerve strikes (controlling their intensity and degree) against the White Wolf. Someone he's grown up with, trained by his father, and knows T'challa's fighting style. Even though Hunter wearing his vibranium armor weave. Showing not only T'challa's stealth but skill in employing nerve strikes while keeping his opponent entirely unaware of them.
The final aspect of Shadow Combat is its main purpose in disrupting his opponent's chi and balance centers. My understanding of chi in the context of martial arts is best demonstrated or best summed up as internal dexterity. With sufficient internal dexterity, it is possible to coordinate one's whole body’s musculoskeletal action so effectively that one for all intents can put every muscle to use in one's body in the performance of an action. Its major purpose is showing extraordinary levels of control of parts of one's body most ordinary human beings are virtually oblivious to. Which Martial Artists tend to do.
Disrupting this as T'challa did with Kathy Ling, as well as Iron Fist (albeit through technology, but this was before upgrades to his skill) is an extreme boon against virtually every martial artist who has some form of strict control, concentration, or application of skills/powers. Combine that with his unorthodox ability to ghost his opponents right in front of them and his combat agility, and he becomes an extremely dangerous opponent. As someone like Karnak who's weakness perception affords him precognition and the ability to perform showings like this found out both times he and T'challa battled:
Showing virtually every key element of the coined Shadow Combat despite Karnak being able to read him like everyone else.
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Heart of the Panther King: X-Factors & Key Elements
I want to cover T'challa' senses, as made obvious by my header. To begin illustrating my point there is a scan from Robbie Thompson's Spidey that I want to reference. Specifically, issue 7:
With his enhanced senses, T'challa is more than capable of sensing attacks before they reach him. This is a combination of his enhanced hearing and sense of smell mainly. They afford him key moments that not only enhance his overall skill but also speed. Take for instance here with the Winter Soldier who T'challa could not see, hear, or even smell. In this situation where T'challa c T'challa was shown to be able to evade his attack cleanly by hearing the rush of air from his attack. Using his senses to detect and evade attacks others do not see coming is a key staple for T'challa's arsenal.
One other x-factor is multiple applications of skill at once. And that is T'challa's various battles with Erik Killmonger. Killmonger is every bit as skilled as T'challa, intellectually gifted, more powerful physically, but has also studied T'challa's fighting style to hell and back. Despite all of that T'challa gives him an extreme challenge every time and in this showing, I linked battled him for over 13 hours (short breaks in between) and was holding the upper hand. An extremely impressive showing of skill and combative prowess. And one I think will begin to make all the difference here.
Anyway that's all for now, and I look forward to seeing where this debate goes. Good luck to us both!.
"Skill" within the confines of martial context has long since proven itself to be supremely difficult to compare across practitioners. How does one judge, with relative certainty, a superiority in skill? What measurements are taken? What metrics are we to abide by? These questions loom over us like a shadowy overcast, the signaling of a coming storm. A storm of doubt, apprehension and precariousness. It is for these reasons that I have developed a personal rubric that I will stick to for the duration of this tournament. There will be three overarching aspects of combat that I will focus on, and the content for the sections of these aspects will be influenced by the setting, the matches themselves, and the hand-to-hand only condition.
The three aspects are offense, defense, and regulation; the first two are self-explanatory, but the third denotes how my character will maximize the effectiveness of his own offense and defense, will simultaneously minimizing the same of his opponent. I will also consider all possible factors that can lend to a general advantage, even those very rarely considered, such as the spiritual aspect of valor as evidenced by composure—calm presence of mind. A truly brave man is ever serene; he is never taken by surprise; nothing ruffles the equanimity of his spirit. In the heat of battle he remains cool; in the midst of catastrophes he keeps level his thought, analyzing his opponents thoroughly and any predicament he may find himself in. Before I dive into those, however, it is my belief that there is no better place to start a comparison of skill-sets than relative achievement and status in physical combat; also known as...
Accolades
Accolades are meaningless. Or so you may think. Indeed, titles like "the world's most dangerous assassin" or "the world's greatest assassin" or "the world's greatest spy" or even "the most dangerous man in the world" are meaningless. Especially in cross-universe battles, where a "world" in question can be massively superior to another in regards to physicals and skill. The impressiveness of those labels are entirely relative to the capabilities of the inhabitants in those settings. So I'll be focusing on Ninjak's training and contextualize the level of skill in the Valiant universe, where he reigns supreme.
Firstly, Ninjak was not trained in a conventional manner. He received his capabilities through intense study under the Undead Monk, a powerful psiot within the Valiant universe who is responsible for the Shadow Seven; a group of world-class assassins and agents who've been empowered beyond any conceivable standard of secret agent/assassin there is, through the use of various means and training. The Undead Monk is functionally immortal, completely still, and utterly silent; he communicates with his students telepathically. What's important about him is that he was not a practitioner of standard human technique, no. His combat preeminence derived from his complete mastery of the Mystic Arts and Dark Magic in general, which was also responsible for his immortality, hence why Dr. Silk (genius scientist) went through the great lengths of excavating the remains of his corpse just to have a morsel of his power.
The Dark Mystic Arts offer a level of combat mastery, proficiency, capability and understanding that is unable to be achieved otherwise, by anything of human design or development. Training from the Undead Monk in particular enables you to vastly transcend the now mundane "master of every known martial art" tag that most street level characters bank on. To prove this, let's take a look at Fitzy, a clone of Dr. Silk's right-hand bodyguard Fitzhugh. Fitzy went rogue, trained under the Undead Monk and became a member of the Shadow Seven. Prior to this, when he was still in service to Silk, Fitzy recounts that the training to be a bodyguard required him to study and master "every form of fighting known to man". Not only that, he became an expert in these styles to point he remembers literally getting bored, having learned even >obscure< techniques and weapons discipline. Then he realized he wasn't the only one. All the Fitzhugh clones had this expertise.
Think about what I just showed you for a second. Each and every single clone of Dr. Silk's bodyguard mastered not just every martial art. Not just every combat discipline. Every. Known. Form. Of fighting. Every known form of fighting. Both armed and unarmed engagement. Matt Kindt, the writer, even goes out of his way to mention the "obscure" ones. Not only that, but mastery turned into boredom.
So with the Undead Monk training, Fitzy went from being able to narrowly escape Silk's household to curbstomping 5 superhuman beings who each individually have mastered every form of fighting known to man to the point of boredom. A couple pages later, it was shown that Ninjak stalemated him off-screen. So Ninjak is also at the level where he can effortlessly slaughter a group of people who've mastered "every form of fighting" in existence. This should be obvious considering they both received tutelage under the Undead Monk.
For further clarity, there is another statement that Fitz knows of not just all martial arts but every known form of combat.
And he has another feat even better than stomping 5 other clones. He once killed 20 clones of HIMSELF with equal stats (after receiving training from the Undead Monk) who EACH were trained in hundreds of fighting styles.
Fitz's pure fighting ability is up there with guys like Afro Samurai and mid tiers in God of High School for comparison. To that end, I'd like to address the absurdity of this showing and acknowledge that being able to beat 20 clones of yourself (through explicitly fighting capability) who are all extremely skilled fighters in their own right is a logical impossibility and paradox. The only explanation would be a stat advantage, which we know for a fact wasn't the case, since the clones are all perfect (or as close to perfect) clones to the original Fitzhugh as can be. Meaning Ninjak and Fitz are just that skilled.
Even Colin's personal training is of absurd standards. He has Omega level IQ and practices individual moves over 300,000 times! Needless to say, the baseline level of skill Ninjak operates at courtesy of his training alone (and fighting Fitz) demonstrates a capability that outstrips virtually any other foundational accolade I've seen for street level characters. And yes, that includes T'Challa.
Offense
Here I will expound on more precise and laser-focused feats and applications of combat, such as agility and pressure points. More important is the latter; Ninjak's pressure points and nerve strikes are a different breed. It's important to understand that Colin's expertise in terms of nerve manipulation will be really hard to match, because he can literally control every nerve ending in his own body as if he was controlling finger tips. And he actually did so to heal himself after literally getting his back and spine shattered and being paralyzed.
And yes, it was later confirmed that his spine was literally shattered.
Pretty damn effective I'd say. Ninjak knows where every nerve ending in the human body is and he knows how to make each and every one of them "scream for days".
He can permanently disable a man with just a single tap to their vagus nerve. Just a light touch. That's all it takes.
Ninjak discovered that he actually killed the man who broke his back during the monk training, by internal injuries. Which means he has internal attacks as well.
Ninjak also has other outright skill feats, not just accolades and statements, to supplement all this. In addition to stalemating Fitzy he's slaughtered dozens of students of the Undead Monk. Now the Shadow Seven are called such because they are the top students of Undead Monk, but all of his students have received training in the Mystic Arts and as such are superior to the typical "master of every known form of fighting" level of skill. The Shadow Seven are just the 7 students of the Monk who excel at this combat. But Ninjak piledriving dozens of Undead Monk students here is still a tall order to beat in terms of actual showings.
On a separate occasion, Ninjak gets the better of Roku again while unarmed, kicking her into a wall, the force of the kick propelled by an explosive in his shoe heel. It should be noted that I consider this a win because he had broken ribs at the time. Ninjak also has another feat he completed with injuries, like when he fought and beat Kannon, a superhuman who received training from the Undead Monk.
Toyo explains in the following issue that the event was caused by a "mass psychosis" in densely populated areas. Myshka refracted light and bent space to alter the perception of reality for almost everyone on the entire planet.
Ninjak has shown his training in this area is effective in different settings. Here Ninjak overcomes psychic torture after being forced to experience his worst nightmares by the Immortal Enemy, and then he destroys part of his physical form. More on that front, Ninjak is straight-up immune to modern torture and interrogation techniques. He is consistently noted as having an unrealistic tolerance to pain. As a matter of fact, based on one of his psych profiles it's stated of him that he appears to lack real emotion to any stimuli.
His tolerance for physical pain is nearly as limitless as his tolerance for emotional suffering. Apparently, hundreds of healed fractures of unknown origin are a testament to this.
To conclude, Ninjak is a damage sponge with ballistic pain tolerance and stamina and can even heal injuries through his manipulation of nerve endings and cells. His meditation was so powerful that he's been able to ward off alterations in perceptive reality through sheer mental discipline, willpower and fortitude, further bolstering arguments that damage of any kind will not affect his mental state or slow him down here.
Regulation
Here I will discuss adaptability, combat analytics, senses, battle IQ and resourcefulness.
Starting with senses, since you displayed these for T'Challa and this is the easiest to show, Ninjak has-
His adaptability is to the level of BP or even greater. His classic description in the Valiant Reader has outlined his ability to prepare for any outcome and always be a step ahead of his opponents through his multitude of skills and keen intellect. It even states that no matter how outmatched he may seem, he always has an ace in the hole.
And that ace, ladies in gentlemen, will be introduced in my following posts when I explore his classic feats, along with the other X-Factors to shift the tide of the battle. And also because I don't want to bog this post down with too many feats, which I may have done already :P
So here we are for round two of our debate, and as agreed upon, the final round. Apologies for the delay my friend. Times have been more busy and topsy-turvy despite the mutual state the world shares under COVID-19. Regardless, I'm here now and ready to dive back in. So without further ado, shall we?
Ninjak is quite impressive, far more impressive than I think many gave him credit for. I commend you for presenting him so well and appreciate the challenge he represents. Still, I do believe there are gaps. Gaps that T'challa can exploit to see this match through.
A key aspect of your argument lies within the sheer accolade of Ninjak's inherent superiority to those who have mastered every form of fighting in the world to boredom and then more. A lot more. I believe you even stated that such knowledge and appraisal far outstrips T'challa. Which is something, while I was impressed by, something I also found myself disagreeing with. And this is due to the nature of T'challa's true lineage and authority as King of the Dead:
Every battle, piece of knowledge, and experience. The panels themselves show it. Every form of fighting in the world, not only against mankind and every form of combat available to the species but species outside the norm. And it is practically a rite of passage for every single Black Panther to master all forms of combat in the world. And these all stack upon each other for T'challa. To the point where he can fight multiple past Black Panther's at the same time and hold his own:
This is so insane that it goes back to the very first Black Panther, who fought alongside the Starbrand, The Iron Fist, Odin, Agamottom The Phoenix, and Ghost Rider against Celestials:
This is to the point that despite the millennia he's lived and power he gained, Odin has immense respect for the Black Panther lineage and their prowess as warriors. So to circle this back around to your original point:
Even Colin's personal training is of absurd standards. He has Omega level IQ and practices individual moves over 300,000 times! Needless to say, the baseline level of skill Ninjak operates at courtesy of his training alone (and fighting Fitz) demonstrates a capability that outstrips virtually any other foundational accolade I've seen for street level characters. And yes, that includes T'Challa.
Can you still honestly say that this outstrips T'challa? Even taking into account the Undead Monk, as impressive as he is, he doesn't go as far as back as battling Celestials on his powers, combat prowess, and battle intelligence. Some of the scaling you presented seems slightly off in terms of application to the tourney. Ninjak seems to be primarily a weapons and gear user. Many of the feats you presented for his skill seem to have involved Ninjak using some sort of gear. Take for example the Fitz example you used:
We can see Ninjak's sword on his back, and it was off-screen so we can't say he didn't use it. It would be logical to say he did use it in some capacity or at least some of his gear. You can expand upon to maybe show he didn't, but that's up to you. Now you may call this point nitpicking, but when there's a clear distinction between gear/weapon usage and strictly hand to hand, I have to call into question the validity of using some of these feats in this setting. As many of them, namely, the one you post later with the disciples of the Undead Monk involved heavy usage of weapons on Ninjak's part.
So Ninjak doesn't;t outstrip T'challa at all from what I can see, be it in training, knowledge or accolades. Not when T'challa has literal millennia of experience, training, and knowledge in his brain. I can't stress enough that T'challa has combined his mastery of Earthly Martial Arts and Otherwordly Martial Arts into an entirely new one. And that is the entire foundation of Shadow Combat:
T'challa has never received formal training in K'un L'un martial arts, as you know it doesn't even exist on the same plane of reality, and yet T'challa has shown such mastery merely from observation of Daniel Rand, Iron Fist and the experiences of the past Panthers in his mind.
Rage of the Black Panther Redux//: Offense vs Defense
hat Colin's expertise in terms of nerve manipulation will be really hard to match, because he can literally control every nerve ending in his own body as if he was controlling finger tips.
Quite impressive. However, I don't need to match Colin's mastery of nerve control. This type of ability is what the nature of Shadow Combat is designed to disrupt. Specifically, because it disrupts chi and the mind's control over their own body. T'challa's showing against the lieutenant is such an example and one that is appropriate for Ninjak's nerve control. You stated that nerve strikes are useless, but can you give more that specifically shows him being unfazed? The person in your scan mentions pressure points but from what I could see he hadn't tried just yet. Ninjak may be able to revert the effects of a nerve strike but that doesn't necessarily mean he's immune to their initial effects. Especially when T'challa can employ them undetected against someone who's received similar training to his own and wears a vibranium suit that normally blocks and reverses the momentum of physical strikes.
Regardless Shadow Combat isn't the same as nerve strikes or pressure points, but rather a systematic disruption of one's entire system with a simple strike to their chi centers or as he put it, the Third Eye. This worked against someone with an anti-mystical background, I imagine it would work wonders against someone with a mystical background that deals in chi and mystical based martial arts.
This combined with the fact that T'challa can always pull a ghost in the middle of combat combined with his panther agility means he can get these blows in all the easier than in a traditional fighting style. As another example of his stealth capabilities he outraced, appeared directly in front of, and ghosted Sabertooth (someone with comparable senses and experience to Wolverine) all in fluid motion:
Employing that in combat, along with his application of skill isn't something I see many people of this level being able to counteract with some uncanny sensory capabilities of their own. And even that might not be enough as T'challa has stalked Daredevil despite his radar sense effortlessly.
Ninjak also has other outright skill feats, not just accolades and statements, to supplement all this. In addition to stalemating Fitzy he's slaughtered dozens of students of the Undead Monk. Now the Shadow Seven are called such because they are the top students of Undead Monk, but all of his students have received training in the Mystic Arts and as such are superior to the typical "master of every known form of fighting" level of skill. The Shadow Seven are just the 7 students of the Monk who excel at this combat. But Ninjak piledriving dozens of Undead Monk students here is still a tall order to beat in terms of actual showings.
On a separate occasion, Ninjak gets the better of Roku again while unarmed, kicking her into a wall, the force of the kick propelled by an explosive in his shoe heel. It should be noted that I consider this a win because he had broken ribs at the time. Ninjak also has another feat he completed with injuries, like when he fought and beat Kannon, a superhuman who received training from the Undead Monk.
This is where I have to draw the line again. While at first I was impressed and began to acknowledge just how skilled Ninjak is... This feat and many of the others that follow all have Colin gain the upper hand through exploitation of gear in some form or fashion. It's not pure hand to hand combat like this tourney calls for. Again you can call that a nitpick if you want, but the fact remains that pure martial combat in h2h was stressed. Weapons and gear were banned or at least were restricted.
-Roku: Both times she was defeated due to some form of gear in Colin's boot be it the poison tip, or the explosive. I won't disregard the skill needed to get to that point, as that is impressive, but to regard as it impressive due to calling them "wins' in this context is what I won't abide.
-Kannon: Ninjak seemed to be on the losing end badly in this one until he exploited Kannon being slower underwater and tying him up. When they fought h2h earlier, he seemed dominated.
Sanguine: Ninjak is exploiting his sword for a reach advantage here. He explicitly says he can't let get close. He only wins due to the distraction the mob made and by injecting her with a drug. Not very applicable in this context from what I can gather.
So in terms of what you've offered in offense, while awesome. I don't think quite stacks up. As T'challa when out of his right mind was able to hold his own or an advantage over two groups of capable fighters at once. The first group being Tombstone, Jigsaw, Crossbones, and Taskmaster and the second being Daredevil, Elektra and the Punisher:
An extremely impressive duo of showings in their own right. Showing that T'challa can match or surpass some of the best Marvel has to offer all at once when surrounded. And something out of universe I feel isn't "far outstripped" by what Ninjak brought to the table as you said. Doubly so since T'challa didn't have to rely on gear to gain said advantages.
This is batshit insane to be quite honest with you. T'challa describes the process beyond any form of physical or mental possession, even traditional time-space displacement. "One must open oneself to it. In all its totality. A tearing sensation-- every cell, every atom ripped from the surface of space-time". Enduring that not only physically but also experiencing the death of the previous universe and the birth of Galactus into the current. T'challa watched him kill worlds. And Galactus mentions that T'challa withstood collapse on a conceptual level. And how did T'challa handle the process?
His willpower and overall endurance/tolerance is astonishing. And it goes back to his early history, to become to Black Panther one must conquer and be deemed worthy by the Panther God Bast. And we've already seen T'challa's experiences go all the back to battling Celestials.
It's gotten to the ridiculous level in which his will overpowered the god of combat and fear in The Tiger God. T'challa then using his power to defeat Logos an abstract being that killed the Living tribunal and was more powerful the Lifebringer Galactus. Will, Mental Power, and Endurance is not something T'challa lacks in. And to use your own words, this far outstrips anything you've brought thus far for Ninjak.
His adaptability is to the level of BP or even greater. His classic description in the Valiant Reader has outlined his ability to prepare for any outcome and always be a step ahead of his opponents through his multitude of skills and keen intellect. It even states that no matter how outmatched he may seem, he always has an ace in the hole.
While those are cool, are any of those on the level of matching or surpassing the sensory abilities of Wolverine/Sabertooth or the extrasensory nature of Daredevil's powers? Because T'challa has been able to ghost both. As well as other trained fighters that can employ senses like Iron Fist. To give another example of his stealth, he recently snuck into a level of the Pentagon that shouldn't exist and was designed by Phillip Coulson and Mephisto. Which is to say security is tighter than tight and they didn't know who invaded the sector until he was there:
So combine that with his agility, and every other factor there is... I don't think Ninjak can just easily negate this aspect of T'challa's arsenal. Furthermore, T'challa applies his senses to read and predict his opponent's moves as you recall akin to a Sharingan:
With his enhanced senses, T'challa is more than capable of sensing attacks before they reach him. This is a combination of his enhanced hearing and sense of smell mainly. They afford him key moments that not only enhance his overall skill but also speed. Take for instance here with the Winter Soldier who T'challa could not see, hear, or even smell. In this situation where T'challa c T'challa was shown to be able to evade his attack cleanly by hearing the rush of air from his attack. Using his senses to detect and evade attacks others do not see coming is a key staple for T'challa's arsenal.
Suffice this all to say, T'challa seems to be the overall more capable hand to hand combatant here. Something I cannot stress enough. Many of those showings that "outstrip" all street levelers aren't all that applicable when held up to some to some scrutiny. And again that's not in the department of overall skill. But the confines of pure h2h this tourney calls for. Regardless even if Ninjak were to prove T'challa's pure martial superior, unless you can also prove he can outthink him (someone who can outthink a nigh Omnipotent God Emperor Doom), you will not defeat him.
Moon Knight, Shang Chi, Captain America, Bullseye Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, and Black Panther. This Super Skrull had mastered the styles and combat prowess of each of those fighters. All comparable or greater than T'challa himself. Note the difference between power and skill in this context. The Skrull trained his entire studying T'challa's fighting style and approach on top of that. In pure skill, T'challa himself admits he cannot defeat him. So he outthinks him. and dominates him by exposing every flaw, every pattern, and every tell. And exploring them in tandem with every strength of Shadow Combat.
This is something one cannot just replicate. It's an incredible showing of combat prowess and one that shows every great thing T'challa has to offer. And what I think is the best closer to my side of the debate. To reiterate T'challa has trained to fight the unknown and adapted to all circumstances, eventualities, and possibilities. He thinks two steps ahead of his enemies and three ahead of his allies. And he has the means to defeat Ninjak here. With that, I'll turn thee closing of this debate over to you. Good luck to us both.
Can you still honestly say that this outstrips T'challa? Even taking into account the Undead Monk, as impressive as he is, he doesn't go as far as back as battling Celestials on his powers, combat prowess, and battle intelligence.
Well it's not like Celestials are known for their martial arts and fighting skill, so I really don't see how this helps you here. If the implication is simply that Black Panthers are skilled enough to spar with cosmic threats based on skill alone, then that wouldn't work either; reason being the actual fight with that Celestial (Zgreb the Sorrower) in Marvel Legacy took place off panel, and we don't see Black Panther's contribution. When his teammates are Odin, Phoenix, Agammotto and the Spirit of Vengeance—and his opponent is one that doesn't engage in martial combat and is too durable and powerful for Panther to affect in any conceivable way (more so without high tech gear his modern incarnations would have access to)—you'll have to excuse me for assuming his contribution was nonexistent.
Some of the scaling you presented seems slightly off in terms of application to the tourney. Ninjak seems to be primarily a weapons and gear user. Many of the feats you presented for his skill seem to have involved Ninjak using some sort of gear.
A valid concern, but one you were also more or less guilty of, and one that doesn't dismiss a bulk of the arguments I put forth.
Gear can offer unfair advantages in fights, but Ninjak usually employs them to accommodate for shortcomings in the area of supernatural physicals and abilities, things of that nature. And don't forget that he's a spy (and, well, a ninja) whose story arcs mostly revolve around missions from the MI6 and other typical super-spy activities.
Ninjak is trained equally in all forms of combat, so if he has a certain level of skill with different articles of weaponry, then it's only logical to assume he maintains the same level of skill when barehanded. He can use gear to its best effect, but he doesn't rely on it; meaning the deprivation of gear is not a handicap. Ninjak's competence isn't something that decreases when loses gear, just his functionality (which in this context means the range of options afforded by equipment such as smoke bombs or drones or something).
Take for example the Fitz example you used:
We can see Ninjak's sword on his back, and it was off-screen so we can't say he didn't use it. It would be logical to say he did use it in some capacity or at least some of his gear. You can expand upon to maybe show he didn't, but that's up to you. Now you may call this point nitpicking, but when there's a clear distinction between gear/weapon usage and strictly hand to hand, I have to call into question the validity of using some of these feats in this setting. As many of them, namely, the one you post later with the disciples of the Undead Monk involved heavy usage of weapons on Ninjak's part.
He probably did use gear considering he tranq'd him at some point in their confrontation. And while issue covers have been historically misleading, this cover of Ninjak #8 appears somewhat indicative of the contents of the fight, and therewithin we see his swords unsheathed.
Refer to my previous set of counters to get the gist of my response. Undead Monk training is equally extensive in all areas, so it's not like Ninjak is better with weapons than he is without them; he would just be more dangerous with them because, well, weapons are dangerous. The difference between an unarmed mook and a mook with a gun is just the gun.
So Ninjak doesn't;t outstrip T'challa at all from what I can see, be it in training, knowledge or accolades. Not when T'challa has literal millennia of experience, training, and knowledge in his brain.
That's fine, I didn't expect you to agree. But I don't think the evidence you gave in favor of this notion was sufficient. I believe Ninjak's training and knowledge is superior, and that's after looking into the examples you provided. Let's take that scan from Fantastic Four vol. 1 #608, when T'Challa and Mr. Fantastic traveled deep below Wakanda to the Wall of Knowledge, which T'Challa described as the oldest part of the kingdom.
After entering the Necropolis and meeting the Panther God Bast, T'Challa tells Bast that he couldn't make a decision regarding his sisters fate. To which Bast shows him that at some point there would be many calamities taking place in Wakanda, and that in the near future, someone must offer salvation to the people of the country. T'Challa then makes up his mind and is devoted to serving his people, and because of this (after seemingly killing Anubis), Bast appoints T'Challa as the ruler of Necropolis. The spirits of all the previous Black Panther's appear and T'Challa's mantle as the Black Panther is restored. In other words... this is anything but training.
T'Challa's acquisition of that knowledge and experience was a ceremonious shortcut. Ninjak actually trained to the point where his meditations allowed him to view all of time.
"Of all time that would be or had been".
He learned the precepts of time, that is was written on a scroll, both linear and rolled in on itself with all moments existing simultaneously. On the other hand, T'Challa literally had a God touch his forehead and give him visions of the future. Ninjak studied the ways of a supernatural ethereal martial art until he could formulate visions on his OWN of the future, and even see enemies he had yet to meet.
I know one might see this and think "the effect is the same so why does the method matter?" Listen: In any kind of competition, would you rather place your bets on someone who worked to achieve something, or someone was given a handout to achieve the same thing? Exactly. You can't argue that Black Panther's training is better than Ninjak's because he was imbued with the experiences of past Panther lives and was shown brief visions of the near future, when Ninjak studied and learned how to meditate to the point where he could see all of time (not just past lives and the future of Wakanda, all history) and enemies he would later encounter.
I can't stress enough that T'challa has combined his mastery of Earthly Martial Arts and Otherwordly Martial Arts into an entirely new one. And that is the entire foundation of Shadow Combat:
T'challa has never received formal training in K'un L'un martial arts, as you know it doesn't even exist on the same plane of reality, and yet T'challa has shown such mastery merely from observation of Daniel Rand, Iron Fist and the experiences of the past Panthers in his mind.
I find this to be very impressive but I'm just having a hard time seeing how this actually helps you. The Dark Mystic Arts are already an "otherwordly martial art" - I mean it's practically in the name. And the practitioners of these arts are so much better at "Earthly martial arts" to the point they shitstomp people who've mastered all known forms of combat to the point of boredom.
Ninjak has never had a reason to create his own martial art. So it doesn't make sense to me to imply that one of the reasons Black Panther is a better martial artist than Ninjak is because he created his own martial art, when for all we know the action of doing so doesn't require any more skill or knowledge than Ninjak already possesses.
Offense vs Defense
You stated that nerve strikes are useless, but can you give more that specifically shows him being unfazed?
Regardless Shadow Combat isn't the same as nerve strikes or pressure points
???
I'll answer your question anyway: Ninjak has resisted nerve strikes before from Zina. She failed so miserably that he stated he literally had to "educate the girl in the finer points of the nerve pinch"...
Zina is a world class agent of Webnet which is Dr. Silk's massive crime syndicate, and from all I've read there's reason to believe the training of the top agents rivals the Ninja program.
Colin is just too damn good at anything nerve or pressure point related to be affected by even the most skilled practitioners. He can control his own nervous system like finger tips, if you pinch or disable his nerves I have no reason to believe it would affect him, and even if I give you the benefit of the doubt, there's no argument against him undoing its effects when he controls nerves like fingers and can move them how he wants.
The man was destroying cancer tumor cells in his own body for years for goodness sakes, and that's something that chemo and radiation therapy normally do. You're outmatched here.
but rather a systematic disruption of one's entire system with a simple strike to their chi centers or as he put it, the Third Eye. This worked against someone with an anti-mystical background, I imagine it would work wonders against someone with a mystical background that deals in chi and mystical based martial arts.
Disrupting Colin's chi will prove difficult because of his training in this area. I'll show you more of what I'm talking about later in this post when it comes up again.
This combined with the fact that T'challa can always pull a ghost in the middle of combat combined with his panther agility means he can get these blows in all the easier than in a traditional fighting style. As another example of his stealth capabilities he outraced, appeared directly in front of, and ghosted Sabertooth (someone with comparable senses and experience to Wolverine) all in fluid motion:
Employing that in combat, along with his application of skill isn't something I see many people of this level being able to counteract with some uncanny sensory capabilities of their own. And even that might not be enough as T'challa has stalked Daredevil despite his radar sense effortlessly.
I would consider the Sabretooth or Daredevil feat impressive if T'Challa didn't have any background or scenery to blend or disappear into. When Ninjak ghosted a guy named Malgam, who at the time was fused with a viral Shanhara Armor, he was (moments before) in the middle of the desert in plain sight, where there was absolutely nothing to hide behind in all directions as far as the eye could see. And he remained undetected even while actively taunting him.
Gallery
"I know what you're thinking. How can a bloke in gold, black and purple be hiding out in the middle of the desert in broad daylight? How does he do that? You ask yourself". And then Ninjak stabs him.
That's way more impressive than your feats considering there was *literally* nowhere to go. No shadows to lurk in, no buildings in sight for miles:
And the sensory capabilities of the Shanhara Armor absolutely dwarf either Sabretooth's or Daredevil's Radar Sense. The armor has been able to sense and detect major crisis' happening all around the planet from literally in deep orbit.
In other words, the Shanhara Armor has demonstrated planetary sensory ranges and has extremely powerful sensors, energy readers and motion detectors consistently throughout it's publication. And Ninjak ghosted one in broad daylight, in the middle of the desert with nowhere to go, wearing colors that might as well have been neon lights, and was able to remain unseen despite actively talking to his opponent.
Those feats you posted don't even come close.
Unarmed Combat
This is where I have to draw the line again. While at first I was impressed and began to acknowledge just how skilled Ninjak is... This feat and many of the others that follow all have Colin gain the upper hand through exploitation of gear in some form or fashion. It's not pure hand to hand combat like this tourney calls for. Again you can call that a nitpick if you want, but the fact remains that pure martial combat in h2h was stressed. Weapons and gear were banned or at least were restricted.
I addressed all of your concerns about gear usage in combat earlier but you make a big point of it here, analyzing his performances against the Shadow Seven. Specifically with the Monks, your point makes no sense when they were toting around rocket launchers. I mean is he supposed to fight barehanded against shit like that? But I digress. Instead of debunking your interpretations and explaining to you why gear isn't used to get an upper hand per se (but rather accommodate for natural disadvantages), I think it's best if at this point I just provide you with evidence that Colin is no less skilled without weaponry than he is with it.
And there is no better example than a statement from Ninjak himself: "A Ninja's true skill is demonstrated with nothing but his empty hands".
I think this next example is can also be an appropriate response to your earlier admissions concerning Black Panther and Shadow Combat. In this issue we see Ninjak training Gabriella in the art of taijutsu (unarmed ninja combat). Gabriella was already a martial arts master, having trained under Shimizu Dai Sensei, the 25th master of Shindo Muso Ryo. Ninjak taught her several things and there are a lot of takeaways in these next four scans.
Gallery
In the first scan we see Ninjak explain that ninjutsu is the art of stealth and invisibility. He was pretty much invisible to Gabriella for hours despite being in her immediate presence (right behind her) which just goes back to the ghosting feats I posted earlier against Shanhara. Ninjak has so many more feats of disappearing from plain sight like when he practically turned invisible to MI6 helicopters.
Based on the Shanhara feats and the fact Ninjak's whole shtick is being a ninja (who are very stealthy individuals) I do sincerely believe that Colin will ghost Panther at least several times, allowing him the ability to land uncontested hits. So long as stalking Daredevil and ghosting Sabretooth are one of T'Challa's better feats, anyway.
In the second scan Colin explains that there are three levels of physical training that act as the basis of Taijutsu. The first involves conditioning the body for suppleness and agility. Gabriella, the girl he was training, was already a martial arts master like I said, having trained in the ways of Jo which gave her an advantage over most people because of her balance of physical and spiritual discipline. What I find impressive about all this is that these are just the bases of taijutsu, not the full extent of it, which Ninjak knows. To even begin to learn the foundations you already have to be a combatant of such esteemed prestige that most of the feats I posted in my opener become mainstay.
In the third scan, Colin explains second level is channeling your body energies. He has such a mastery in this field that he can use a technique called Fu No Kata - A Ninja's wind like response that let them overcome enemies who have superior strength and speed. This means that even if Colin has an apparent disadvantage in physical stats, his coordination and control over his body energies blesses him with moves that he can use to outpace them and overpower them.
Now think about this: If this technique allows him to overcome those with greater stats, then in a situation where stats are equal, wouldn't he just be in a position to almost stomp? Especially when he has greater still on top of it, like in the areas of nerve manipulation and mid-combat ghosting especially?
In the final scan, Colin explains the third level is learning the dynamic of the universe. This is akin to the intricacies of the Dark Mystic Arts in the current Valiant. The key is to tap into the forces of the universe, which pushes Colin's skill way above any logical conclusion. And he outright demonstrates it. He tells Gabriella to position herself in a way that she wouldn't be knocked over if Colin pushed her. Colin doesn't even strike and she falls flat on her ass by herself. This showcases an invisible force acting on Gabriella that she couldn't account for, the force of the blow Colin mentions in the last panel before telling her to try again. This is something that I'm confident you or anyone else in the tourney will have a hard time defending against: invisible forces increasing the reach of his blows and propensity to disrupt balance. And do it in a way that can't be possibly dodged or detected.
Combine everything I've told you in all these bullet points together and this is just the BASIS of Taijutsu (unarmed h2h combat).
So yeah, this is what's batshit insane. Ninjak's skill is just all around nuts.
So in terms of what you've offered in offense, while awesome. I don't think quite stacks up.
Well think again.
An extremely impressive duo of showings in their own right. Showing that T'challa can match or surpass some of the best Marvel has to offer all at once when surrounded. And something out of universe I feel isn't "far outstripped" by what Ninjak brought to the table as you said. Doubly so since T'challa didn't have to rely on gear to gain said advantages.
Considering Ninjak in that situation would probably ghost all of them, render them paralyzed or unconscious with spinal cord nerve strikes, or dominate them in hand to hand with invisible forces of the universe giving him aided reach, extra force, or simply Fu No Kata speed and strength spur hacks, I don't see this as something to be worried of.
Black Panther is still in a tough spot no matter how much scaling you want to use.
This is batshit insane to be quite honest with you. T'challa describes the process beyond any form of physical or mental possession, even traditional time-space displacement. "One must open oneself to it. In all its totality. A tearing sensation-- every cell, every atom ripped from the surface of space-time". Enduring that not only physically but also experiencing the death of the previous universe and the birth of Galactus into the current. T'challa watched him kill worlds. And Galactus mentions that T'challa withstood collapse on a conceptual level. And how did T'challa handle the process?
His willpower and overall endurance/tolerance is astonishing. And it goes back to his early history, to become to Black Panther one must conquer and be deemed worthy by the Panther God Bast. And we've already seen T'challa's experiences go all the back to battling Celestials.
It's gotten to the ridiculous level in which his will overpowered the god of combat and fear in The Tiger God. T'challa then using his power to defeat Logos an abstract being that killed the Living tribunal and was more powerful the Lifebringer Galactus. Will, Mental Power, and Endurance is not something T'challa lacks in. And to use your own words, this far outstrips anything you've brought thus far for Ninjak.
Lol, I had read Ultimates vol. 2 a long time ago and I completely forgot about this. This is one of the most impressive feats of pain tolerance, endurance and willpower I've ever seen. Especially from a street level character.
I know when I'm beat. In this category I'll admit T'Challa is much better than Ninjak. Of course, neither of our character can dish out that level of pain and damage. And some of my attacks would incapacitate you painlessly. But if this match turns into a drawn out battle, then one thing you never addressed in your post was stamina. I still believe Ninjak fighting for a month as a old man is very impressive. And you don't have any more posts so I won't bring up the assertion that you can't match it, but you missed the only opportunity to do so. So for now I'll maintain a presumptive advantage.
While those are cool, are any of those on the level of matching or surpassing the sensory abilities of Wolverine/Sabertooth or the extrasensory nature of Daredevil's powers? Because T'challa has been able to ghost both.
Well now the answer is a resounding yes.
Closing Points
Furthermore, T'challa applies his senses to read and predict his opponent's moves as you recall akin to a Sharingan:
Move reading honestly doesn't seem like a viable option against a guy who can turn invisible to sensitive motion detectors and energy scanners with global range. Especially since the Shanhara Armor can seemingly predict attacks if its familiar with the energy. And it is with Ninjak.
With his enhanced senses, T'challa is more than capable of sensing attacks before they reach him. This is a combination of his enhanced hearing and sense of smell mainly. They afford him key moments that not only enhance his overall skill but also speed. Take for instance here with the Winter Soldier who T'challa could not see, hear, or even smell. In this situation where T'challa c T'challa was shown to be able to evade his attack cleanly by hearing the rush of air from his attack. Using his senses to detect and evade attacks others do not see coming is a key staple for T'challa's arsenal.
Enhanced senses meet enhanced senses I guess. Like I showed in my last post, Ninjak has better senses than Bloodshot. And I think Bloodshot's senses can speak for themselves:
Here's another feat of the sub-atomic nanites in Bloodshot's bloodstream enhacing his senses to the point where they can pull crazy stunts, like the faint smell of the a hair spray or shampoo from the morning earlier.
Then there the feat of sneaking up on La Barbe, and Ninjak smelling plastic explosives and noticing wrinkles in the carpet of his house that weren't there when he left, a long time earlier.
Suffice this all to say, T'challa seems to be the overall more capable hand to hand combatant here. Something I cannot stress enough. Many of those showings that "outstrip" all street levelers aren't all that applicable when held up to some to some scrutiny. And again that's not in the department of overall skill. But the confines of pure h2h this tourney calls for. Regardless even if Ninjak were to prove T'challa's pure martial superior, unless you can also prove he can outthink him (someone who can outthink a nigh Omnipotent God Emperor Doom), you will not defeat him.
Moon Knight, Shang Chi, Captain America, Bullseye Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, and Black Panther. This Super Skrull had mastered the styles and combat prowess of each of those fighters. All comparable or greater than T'challa himself. Note the difference between power and skill in this context. The Skrull trained his entire studying T'challa's fighting style and approach on top of that. In pure skill, T'challa himself admits he cannot defeat him. So he outthinks him. and dominates him by exposing every flaw, every pattern, and every tell. And exploring them in tandem with every strength of Shadow Combat.
This is something one cannot just replicate. It's an incredible showing of combat prowess and one that shows every great thing T'challa has to offer. And what I think is the best closer to my side of the debate. To reiterate T'challa has trained to fight the unknown and adapted to all circumstances, eventualities, and possibilities. He thinks two steps ahead of his enemies and three ahead of his allies. And he has the means to defeat Ninjak here. With that, I'll turn thee closing of this debate over to you. Good luck to us both.
Multiple generations of Dr. Silk (an immortal genius and one of the most if not the single most supernaturally intelligent villain in the Valiant universe) were required to learn how to use the mechanism, which took Ninjak some odd seconds. In the last two scans Ninjak even stated that there was an infinite amount of data cards in the monolith with more processing power than all the minds and (presumably) computers on Earth and it was speaking to him, in his head, and upon deciphering it he began to shed tears.
So Ninjak has virtually boundless knowledge (could be effectively infinite) of magical and mystic arts and which is actually extremely relevant to his fighting capability, considering Undead Monk trained him in the Dark Mystic Arts and one of the foundational levels of Taijutsu requires him to tap into invisible universal forces in combat. Then you have to factor in that his meditation allowed him to view all of time at one point and boom, you realize this simple fact:
Ninjak is so goddamn comically skilled that, despite having literally zero superpowers, he has some ultra wacky mystic magical bullshit capable of feats that defy all logic and sensibility, from his accolades right down to the fact he could straight up manipulate the dynamics of the universe and decipher infinite knowledge databases in battle applicable ways. He's also an absolute tank, has unbeatable stealth, and nerve and cellular control/manipulation that very few people can defend against.
I wish you all the luck in the world my friend, but no matter what happens, win or lose, I sincerely do believe Colin King to have everything he needs to win this match.
Also thank you for the great match HP. Glad you were my opponent here. Win or lose I enjoyed letting loose with T'challa. Twas a fun time. And excellent test to da skills.
Man this has got to be the best debate in this skill tourney. Both highly accomplished debaters using two amazing top tier fighters of their own respective verse. I think this matchup is damn near too close to call but in the end, I'll give my vote to Darth. I think Darth cemented himself as the best Black Panther debater after this. But this isn't to take away anything from Vulcan as he really showcased Ninjak as one of the best in not just this tourney but other top tier fighters among verses like Marvel and DC. Spectacular job gentlemen but in the end, Darth will get my vote.
After reading , I was more convinced by ninjak repped by higher power winning the match against tchalla repped by Darth.
Mainly because HP proved the irrelevance of certain factors tchalla may have an edge in, like his heritage,known martial arts (gear, pressure point knowledge... ). Tchalla is the panther god's chosen one, but it was the panther God responsible for denying logoz. But, meh...dont see relevance of its dependence here #will (just my two cents)
Also to finalise, the clones and the nerve mastery were the deciding factors that made me vote HP
Spectacular posts from you both, loved reading it.
The debate was very good on both sides overall. There ended up not being a huge fuss over the quality of feats themselves, so it comes more down to advantages. @higherpower convinced me Ninjak was overall more skilled, while @darthjhawk was correct in pointing out his showings involved considerable use of gear.
I have to vote for Vulcan though, I was just more impressed by the level of skill I saw from Ninjak. He seems a lot more wuxia than T'Challa and that's a big deal breaker for me.
Voting for @darthjhawk...Vulcan/HP convinced me on certain aspects like stealth in a freaking desert against Malgam but Darth simply had the advantage on the most relevant factors of who would win. Ninjak’s most impressive combat showings consist of equipment and it’s often the reason he’s such a deadly combatant, a quick unconvincing argument with a muh empty hands scan doesn’t change that. Whereas Darth provided some pretty clear cut showings of Black Panther‘s adaptability, agility and shadow combat culminating in what he CAN and WILL do in unarmed H2H combat.
But I give props to Vulcan for things like stealth and nerve strikes (in fact I’m convinced Ninjak is by far the most skilled comic nerve manipulator). After all, this is a skill tourney, and Vulcan successfully convinced me of multiple aspects of Ninjak’s skill. These things will provide Ninjak a few wins. But Darth simply had the more relevant factors on his side. Excellent debate from great debaters. Well done.
First off -- bravo!! It truly is a joy to see two intelligent & respectful debaters go head to head and give a match their all, the Vine needs more of it, and even though I complained to Vulcan about the length of this debate (I like em' short and concise, what I can I say?) I think it was well worth reading.
The "Good"
Both of you obviously knew your characters well and I was able to learn something about each; I never knew T'Challa had developed his own unique style of Martial Arts, and I have never read much Ninjak so Vulcan's posts opened up a whole new world there.
I think Ninjak's knowledge of nerve strikes & pressure points is superior to T'Challa and I think Vulcan demonstrated that ability well with his scan choices; I also think that Darth showcased how versatile Panther can be, the scans in which he was caught off-guard or was at a disadvantage really drove the point home that even when the odds are against him his raw skill allows him to edge a victory over those foes.
All in all we have two very skilled combatants here, and it IS a skills tournament after all.
The "Bad"
I think there was a lot of time spent on character knowledge; knowing every martial art, being trained in every aspect of fighting, etc., when that time could've been spent more on SHOWING it's application, perhaps it's because you both only had two posts so you wanted to cover all your bases, but there are so many characters in comics/fiction that "know every martial art" and I think it took some time to get to the showing instead of just telling.
Also -- the gear. Unfortunately I think the amount of showings that Ninjak has with his gear was a valid point brought up by Darth. It can be hard to differentiate what was due to skill and what was due to superior gear.
My Vote
It's practically a coin-flip decision since both of you did so well, but I think I have to give it to @darthjhawk in the end. @higherpower did a fantastic job of showcasing Ninjak's skills and I was really impressed with the fact that Ninjak beat twenty of his own clones, but when Darth showed BP beating the former Panther's I felt they were on even ground again, the deciding factor for me was Darth pointing out how many of Ninjak's feats had him utilizing gear of some sort.
Good job to both of you, and good luck to whoever moves on.
I've got to say that Darth's two posts were easily the best description of T'Challa's skill level I've ever read anywhere. But I think he was, unfortunately, just outclassed (and I don't mean debater-wise, I mean character-wise). As good as T'Challa's skill is, it seemed Vulcan had no end to the amount of absolute complete bullshit skill feats that he could post. T'Challa has a few bullshit skill feats which Darth utilized to perfection, but I think Vulcan was just able to overwhelm me with quantity along with the high quality. I think Vulcan said it best when he said "Ninjak is just so ridiculously comically skilled" because that's what it seemed like to me - I honestly could scarcely believe my eyes that writers think it's a good idea to give characters such ridiculous feats. But it is what it is, I guess. As such, I'm going to have to vote for Vulcan here. Great job both of you.
This was a very good debate, however I would have to go with Vulcan if I were to pick a winner. As good as black panther is in skill, Ninjak seems vastly more impressive. Whether it was a matter of stealth, application of nerve strikes, or simply their accolades Ninjak seemed the better of the two. Black panther had advantages of course, the showing of willpower Darth shown was by far better than anything Vulcan gave(which he conceded to) but ultimately it wasn’t enough for me. Ninjak just was a bit to broken in skill for someone like BP.
The debate was very good on both sides overall. There ended up not being a huge fuss over the quality of feats themselves, so it comes more down to advantages. @higherpower convinced me Ninjak was overall more skilled, while @darthjhawk was correct in pointing out his showings involved considerable use of gear.
I have to vote for Vulcan though, I was just more impressed by the level of skill I saw from Ninjak. He seems a lot more wuxia than T'Challa and that's a big deal-breaker for me.
Yeah, this sums up my thoughts pretty nicely. voting for Vulcan, but excellent work lads.
Well finally got round to reading this and it didn't disappoint. Easily one of the best CaV's I have come across recently and I must say, couldn't have asked for a better accompaniment to my Sunday lunch. While the match is closed, I figure it wouldn't harm to just leave my thoughts.
I will have to agree with most of the users that voted for Vulcan here, Darth was quite simply outclassed character wise. The kind of feats Vulcan showed for Ninjak, especially in areas like nerve control and stealth, were so balls to the walls outlandish that I am hard pressed to see such feats turn up even in a manga, let alone a mainstream American comic, let alone for a freaking street leveller. The only area where I found Vulcan's argumentation lacking was the gear vs h2h combat aspect. Having weapons is not an advantage that you can simply handwave by saying "he is just as skilled with his fists" and posting a quick "counter" with some random "empty hand" character statements. Having just a basic sword can completely change the dynamics of a matchup in innumerable ways, so I felt Vulcan's curt dismissal of this to be pretty lazy.
Nevertheless, just his accolades and in verse standing alone is enough to prove that Ninjak would easily be a top tier martial artist in the MU, and his bullshit level of skill and sheer quality of feats in other departments was more than enough to carry and supersede whatever trump cards for BP that Darth brought to the table, so if I had to vote, I'd vote for, no, not Vulcan, but Ninjak, as these two users were just that dead even in sheer debating skill.
Very intrigued to see who in this tourney will now bring Ninjak down though.
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