Amadeus Cho (Supremegeneration) & Beast Boy (BladeofFury)
Rules
Confrontation: a direct battle between two or more participants/alliances. The participant who chooses to confront will post first. In this case, the person being attacked has to argue why/how they would win. However, the confronter loses any element of stealth or surprise. Someone will die.
Gorgon and Backlash arrive at Loot Lake and confront Amadeus Cho and Beast Boy.
2 posts each
7 days to post
No extensions
Voting will be open to non-participants and the Gamemasters.
Battlefield: Loot Lake
Starting distance of 10 meters.
The Twist...
A threat still lurks within the waters of Loot Lake... DEL LAGO!!!
However, Del Lago has mutated, doubling in size and strength. Additionally, 20 of his parasite spawns lie in wait for the fight to begin before appearing from the water and attacking any participants in sight.
Getting bitten results in serious illness, with symptoms such as nausea, bleeding eyes, weakness, etc. After about 15 minutes, the bite causes the person to literally explode from the inside out. This only counts for actual big bites to exposed fresh, so any small wounds or claw slashes don't cause the same effect.
Normally, Maestro and Mr_Ingenuity would post first since they initiated the confrontation. However, Cho and BB have some prep time before the battle begins, between the time their previous battle ended and when Gorgon & Backlash arrive at their location to initiate this battle. Therefore, Supreme and BoF will post first.
One musket of Oda Nobunaga, scavenged by Cho from Oda Nobunaga
You might be thinking, "Supreme, that's a lot of gear, how are you effectively carrying all of that?". Well with the riot gear, there's plenty of empty space. Metal blades can be stored beneath the straps that hold the armored part of the arms for easy access. The smoke grenades can be placed under armored parts on the upper arms and legs, as well as the EMP and antennae. Finally, the supercomputer can be safely put behind the armored part of the back of the riot gear. The WS arm will be concealed beneath, and that arm will primarily handle the musket while the other takes action with the gauntlet.
In a nearby car that he's been driving from location to location (originally grabbed from Salty Springs as mentioned in first ambush on Livewire) there's also the empty rocket launcher (scavenged by Cho from Nemesis) and machine gun pistol (scavenged by Cho from Fatman) as well as several scavenged pieces of random equipment from Salty Springs (cars, fridges, the underground bunker, etc).
Lastly, as part of winning the Grandmaster's challenge, Amadeus decided to grab the Impact Dial.
Prep
The Impact Dial from One Piece can absorb blunt force and store kinetic energy over time, releasing it against opponents when the apex of the dial is pressed. As such, Beast Boy's primary objective during prep is to charge it.
While BB is charging the dial, Cho will be sorting through his gear and laying out BB's next steps:
When the opponents are in sight, shrink to an ant and go in the air
As they approach, keep away from Gorgon and wait for Cho's signal (through the Ant-Man helmet)
When the signal comes, attack Backlash.
Cho will explain that he wants to wait until the perfect moment before lighting their enemies up, which he expects to come shortly after their arrival.
Finally, Cho will leave the impact dial on the ground and place a bunch of ants on it, ensuring they're ready to trigger it at any moment.
Gorgon
Cho didn't tell BB everything. Back during the intermission, BB (scouting as an eagle) got to witness Deadpool's teleporter in action against the Spider-men. Ever since then, Cho had his mind set on hacking it. Upon your team's arrival, a quick scan of Gorgon's person will confirm the teleporter's existence and the potential of this strategy.
We'll go over the LYLA A.I. first. Owned by Miguel O'Hara, the Spider-Man of 2099, LYLA has shown the capability to hack technology remotely. She's shown to capability to overtake computers at range, and she's good enough to shut down advanced androids from the future, such as Electro 2099:
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She's going to be running from the Spider-Man 2099 mask that Cho got as soon as advancements were a thing. Poking, prodding, and attempting takeover.
It's a lot of scans but in Incredible Hulk vol 2 #100, Cho used one of Banner's hacks to get into the servers of Mr. Fantastic himself. Not a feat for Cho in that he didn't hack Reed himself, but still a great feat that Reed tried to get him out of the systems but couldn't. He also hacked into the satellite that Reed and the Illuminati had sent to the planet they thought they'd sent the Hulk.
So, Cho will begin hacking the teleporter as soon as Gorgon is within 100 meters of him (the maximum hacking distance allowed). Gorgon and Backlash will know our team is present but they won't be able to see us due to the invisibility cloak and BB's ant form, which will give Cho the several seconds he needs to hack the teleporter. Once he does, it's game over for Gorgon. Though Cho is limited by the same 50 foot rule that Gorgon was (and Geek ruled that Cho must also be within 50 feet of Gorgon to start teleporting him), it's more than enough.
Plan A is to teleport Gorgon on the impact dial. As mentioned previously, Cho will use the Ant-Man capabilities of his mask to keep some ants on the dial, ready to trigger it. With this, he can teleport Gorgon onto the dial right in time for its stored energy to be released. As durable as Gorgon is, he obviously won't be able to withstand the accumulated force elephant-mode Beast Boy exerted during prep. Not to mention that the dial is described as "causing internal injuries to a living body it's used against while not leaving any visible external damage. This blunt force is enough to wound even Luffy, who is usually immune to blunt force due to his rubber body." So even the usefulness of the MCU Panther suit is in question.
This should take Gorgon out of the fight, but if it somehow fails, plan B is to teleport him directly into the path of Del Lago. The lake is right next to them, and there's no way in hell Gorgon is surviving an underwater encounter with a 130 ft aquatic monster without being able to use his teleporter. Here is Professor's post outlining Del Lago's abilities, but note that the monster is now twice as big and twice as strong as he was then. Also note that Gorgon will probably just choke to death from being suddenly teleported underwater, and even if he doesn't he would need to deal with Del Lago pretty damn quickly to avoid drowning.
Telepathy
We expect you to argue that Gorgon will use TP to locate Cho and attack him before he has time to hack the teleporter. That won't be the case for two reasons.
As mentioned in the previous battle against Gaz/Livewire, "Cho is already familiar with Gorgon, so from now on, the duo will make sure to guard their minds..." With Cho being on guard, it is clear that Gorgon won't be able to extract any information about his position or plans from his mind. As for Beast Boy, Cho kept him in the dark about the hacking strategy (and he also won't know where Cho is), so if Gorgon manages to read his mind he'll only be misled. Though it's doubtful that Gorgon will be able to read BB's mind either, which brings us to the 2nd reason.
2) Gorgon has range problems. I don't recall a single instance of him reading someone's mind from more than like 10 meters away.
So all BB and Cho need to do is stay a little farther away from him until the teleporter is hacked and they're in the clear.
I should also mention that if, somehow, hacking the teleporter doesn't work at all, Cho will just throw the impact dial at Gorgon instead of getting Gorgon to the impact dial. Since Gorgon can't read Cho's mind, he won't see it coming if it's thrown from behind. But it won't come to this.
Backlash
Cho will signal BB to attack Backlash right when he teleports Gorgon to the impact dial/Del Lago. With his teammate gone, Backlash won't stand a chance.
First, I'm curious what's stopping BB from just flying up to him as a tiny insect and then one-shotting him as a clawed animal, like he did to multiple contestants throughout the Games. Unlike those characters, Backlash will know that BB is somewhere near but that knowledge ultimately won't help if he can't see him.
Second, Del Lago's minions will be jumping out of the water at about this time, and "attacking any participants in sight." Unfortunately for Backlash, he'll be the only one in sight since Cho is invisible and BB can revert back to an insect at any moment or simply go in the air.
So what we have here is Backlash being swarmed by 20 bullet speed parasite spawn while BB occasionally appears to get a shot in and invisible Cho uses him as target practice from the sidelines. Cho has flashbangs and smoke grenades to blind him, sonics to disorient, an EMP and a magnet bomb to disable his cybernetic leg, the Iron Man gauntlet, Gaz' metal blades, and Nobunaga's rifle to deal the damage. This would be a literal nightmare for Backlash.
Basically, Supermath allows Amadeus to look at a situation and see all possible outcomes. It's explained in Incredible Hercules #135 when Cho's origin is viewed and the villain Dupree is trying to keep Supermath from Cho:
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In essence, it's like Midnighter's Battle Computer without the tech. It's just how he operates. But he uses it for so much more than that. As explained in the above scans, his mind is able to:
perform simultaneous infinite calculations
take into account the whole panoply of probabilities in any given situation
take into account every possible quantum state in any given situation
Supermath: vs Griffin
In Heroic Age: Prince of Power #1, Cho faced off against the villain Griffin. This is a guy who's tango'd with Hercules and Wonder Man. Before we go screaming out of limits, note Cho had several pieces of high tier gear here: BannerTech shielding, the Mjolnir equivalent of Hercules (his mace), and his insane freaking brain:
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scans backwards for some reason
After the monstrous villain destabilizes a ferris wheel, Cho hurls the adamantine mace of Hercules through a support column, making it fall precisely where it's needed to support the weight of the ferris wheel, helps support it while getting people down, gets flung by Griffin into the air, and gets himself into position... for he calculated all of this and ended up exactly where he wanted at the exact time he needed in order to grab his mace in mid air after it had been bouncing around the mall in order to take Griffin down. Not only that, he calculated every necessary vector, the amount of force required, he took into account every angle, he did all of this before a ferris wheel could tilt over to even 45 degrees.
To break it down even further, as I did in the Lucario/Nobunaga fight:
Griffin was coming at him but Cho threw the mace so that the pillar fell in the exact position he needed, rushed over to help catch the ferris wheel, then got hit by Griffin but that was on purpose. This hit launched Cho in the exact angle he knew it would as he caught the mace and used it to one-shot Griffin. As soon as Cho threw the mace, all of this had already been calculated and set in motion:
The pillar falling in the exact angle and at the exact speed it needed to in order to catch the ferris wheel at the exact spot to hold it up
The exact same throw that did this to the pillar ricocheted throughout the mall, not randomly, as eventually it would line up exactly to where Amadeus would catch it
Since Amadeus caught the mace exactly where he ended up and proceeded to one-shot Griffin with it, this means that when Griffin hit Amadeus, Cho already knew exactly not only when Griffin would hit him but the exact angle he'd be hit at in order to catch the mace
Cho calculated every single infinitesimal factor of this before the ferris wheel could fall over to even a 45 degree angle.
Now, no shit, Cho doesn't have BannerTech shielding or Hercules' adamantine mace here. This is - and most feats I'll show for Supermath - not the point. The point is that he can analyze a situation and make all the variables work in his favor. That's his true 'power': he runs the numbers and makes the situation work for him.
Supermath: vs Mr. X
During the events of Siege, the Thunderbolts invaded Asgard in search of Gungnir, the spear of Odin All-Father. The Mighty Avengers arrived to stop them. Their battle took place in Thunderbolts vol 2 #142, and in it, Amadeus faced off against Mr. X:
Amadeus picked up a quiver of arrows, moved to a favorable position, and did what he called zillions of calculations in his head to guarantee an outcome of pain. He launched the arrows upwards so they'd ricochet between the arch above and the floor, many of them hitting the telepath and putting him down for a large portion of the issue. This is insane for a variety of reasons. For starters, any telepaths out there (I'm looking at your ass, Gorgon): good luck with that. Second, look at who Cho did this to: Mister X. Any debater would be glad to have this kind of scaling, but Amadeus Cho has it on a very, very high level: the very issue before this had X beat an Asgardian warrior and a meager seven issues before Cho kicked his ass in a single page with nothing but Supermath, Mister X performed what is probably his most famous feat after stomping Wolverine. Yet he couldn't avoid the absolute onslaught that Amadeus Cho put on him, and this was a book of a team Mister X was on to boot, Cho was just a guest star.
Again, obviously Cho doesn't have a quiver of arrows here to replicate this with. That's - to me - always been a rather weird and stupidly specific counter to begin with as if it had context. The context is that Amadeus freaking Cho is just that good. He may not have access to a quiver of arrows, but he has:
Smoke grenades
Multiple throwing blades
A musket
MCU Iron Man repulsor
An EMP
Magnet bomb whose shrapnel will rust all metal
And yeah, obviously Amadeus has not used any of this in the past. However, it's all rather basic things to use and put to use. If he can calculate a way to make a basic quiver of arrows put the hurt on someone like Mr. X, I refuse to believe that he cannot calculate a way to put the hurt on people with a far, far, far wider arsenal.
Supermath: fast calcs
(Cho-Hulk feat, but the intelligence is still all Amadeus)-- In Champions vol.2 #14 the plot, more or less, is that High Evolutionary is trying to teleport his world - which operates on a different vibrational frequency to Cho's - into Earth-616. Basically, an entire planet (Counter-Earth) was attempting to phase into Earth-616, concentrated onto a city-size area via vibration. What Amadeus did was, on the damn spot, improv a counter-vibration to save absolutely everything in the area. So he's not only calculating the vibrational frequency of another freaking planet that he can't even see, he's taking into account the various frequencies of everyone in the city, the buildings, the cars, everything. I can't take actually put into words how completely insane this would be in a short period of time, let alone damn near instantly the way Amadeus did it. To further explain how impressive that is, it's entirely likely he wasn't even in the center of the city, meaning he had to factor in the distance across the city and vibrate even harder in one direction.
The next feat, while not as insane in terms of numbers, is likely more applicable as it helps with the prediction of actions of intelligent beings. In Cho's own part at the end of Incredible Hulk vol.3 #100, we see that he's being hunted by SHIELD. Due to his natural-born hypermind, SHIELD straight up believes he's a powered individual in violation of the Superhuman Registration Act (the whole deal behind Civil War). In an attempt to attack SHIELD, Amadeus calls the man in charge of the operation and tells him he hopes all men have parachutes. He then hits his tape recorder, having hacked the helicopter they were on and causing it to lose power, and crashes the thing. In order to make sure no one got hurt, he had to account for their response time, all of them having parachutes, all of them being able to swim (heli is over water), the paths they would take as they exited the helicopter, and most importantly, he had to account for both the explosion of the helicopter on the water not hitting any of them and that not a single piece of shrapnel flew out and into either any of the men or their parachutes (shrapnel can be seen at the bottom). We know he did this because not a single one of them got hurt, as was revealed in the same issue where, after hacking Reed fkin Richards, Mr. Fantastic himself has a lowkey fanboying moment over the man, saying things like "you can process data like no one I've ever seen..." and "your potential is... incredible" even going as far as to confuse his natural hypermind with mutations or a cybernetic implant. Two things of note: no agents on Coney Island were killed (where helicopter hack took place) and Reed's statement about Cho's data processing allows for some interesting scaling...
Given one of Reed's enemies from classic days is Mad Thinker (this guy having abilities damn near identical to Cho), someone's who's made highly successful predictions in-combat against people like Captain America and Daredevil, that statement by Reed should put Cho above Mad Thinker as well. This can be further corroborated by two other ways: first, Mad Thinker is always compared to a regular computer whereas Cho is a straight up hypercomputer (i.e first scans in post). Secondly, during the Intelligencia storyline in Pak's defining Hulk run, Mad Thinker himself was the only one of all the Intelligencia to consider Cho worthy of joining their ranks which may not by itself mean much but Cho did himself directly help Banner repeatedly take down the villains. This should further bolster Cho's chances of predicting where his foes will be.
By the time Gorgon and Backlash arrive, Cho is invisible and BB is a small insect.
Cho hacks the teleporter. Gorgon gets teleported onto a charged-up impact dial triggered by ants. Note, Cho is no stranger to teleporters. If Gorgon isn't one-shot, survives with damage, or just somehow survives, then Del Lago gets a treat.
Beast Boy and Del Lago's minions attack Backlash as this is happening. Cho joins in soon enough, so he's also going to be attacked by a supergenius that can predict movement, see angles, shoots insanely well, and has a plethora of options. Further, the longer you fight the minions, the better Cho's already basically perfect calculations become.
Strength is Tomi's physical stat. However his feats against other established street level characters show he isn't a pushover in this category. Wielding a wooden beam as a weapon he knocks Elektra out of the fight, has pummeled Elektra to death with his bear hands (mostly), and beat Shang Chi unconscious in 3 strikes.
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Tossed Shang Chi up a few storey with one hand and threw Wolverine hard enough to crack a wall who weighs 136KG (300lb).
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Speed
Being a swordsman it makes sense for speed to be Gorgon's most notable physical stat. Elektra was unable to land a single strike on him even though Tomi gave up his swords.
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Deflect bullets back at the shooters.
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Cuts 3 bullets in one stroke while they are only inches away from the target.
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Even his striking strength feats double as speed feats. Considering Elektra and Shang Chi are bullet timers. Shang Chi was prepared for his assault but made no attempt to block or counter.
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Durability/Endurance
Shang Chi lands a kick to the face then a punch to Tomi's chest and it only annoys him. Keep in mind Shang Chi is wearing wristbands that amps his strength and he still knows that won't be enough to win.
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Shrugged off a missile detonated in an enclosed space.
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Takes blows from Stonewall who grew to the size of a building. After the first hit Gorgon gets up in the very next page and it's shown they're having a fight throughout the issue. The fight ends with Gorgon having a bloody nose still willing to fight.
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Powerset
Healing factor keeps him in fighting condition in spite of Elektra's and Wolverine's best effort to put him down. Shrugging off being impaled through the chest twice while being slashed through the ribcage and neck.
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Telepathy allows him to read Elektra's entire mind for info on Fury while having a conversation at the speed of thought.
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Reading thoughts allows him to know what characters are plotting instantly knowing the ten different ways Old Man Logan plans to save a bystander. Wolverine also mentioned in the above scans that Gorgon could anticipate Elektra's every move now that her PSI blocker is gone.
Tomi still has his signature stone stare. However is can only be used on summons and fodder. Which is fair considering it is an insta kill but it also means it can't be used against him.
Gear
Tomi is still equipped with the MCU Black Panther CW Suit from the mystery box. Giving him increased durability and vibranium claws.
Tomi also has Deadpool's teleporter as a sponsored item. Being that it is a teleporter means it will provide instant movement in combat. It has also been shown to respond to thought without the usual button presses. So with a little resourcefulness on Tomi's part he should be able to attack at any angle and avoid incoming damage.
Even when damaged the teleporter has shown it can outmaneuver a fast and agile opponent such as Black Panther in a fight.
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Deadpool teleports out of the way of Rocket's shot at point blank range.
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Rabbit talisman is a sponsored item Tomi has gained through an ambush. The talisman grants user superspeed when activated. It has allowed a Tohru (a character with the body of a sumo wrestler) enough speed to blitz Jackie Chan. Jackie has his own impressive feats such as dodging a whip while completely tied up. In an attempt to quantify how fast this would be I did a quick google search and found a peer reviewed article placing the crack of a whip at mach 2. So this places the rabbit talisman at the limit in terms of movement speed. And if you needed more proof the talisman has created a sonic boom.
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Loot Lake Confrontation
It’s important to point out that this is a confrontation meaning our characters start 10 meters apart. Allowing our character to know if they can’t see their opponents that they are invisible 10 meters away. I’ll also note at this point in the scenario all battles are confrontations. Effectively banning any attacks before the confrontation begins. It seems their strategy has been edited to reflect that.
So in this scenario Tomi has the most advantages to this fight. The most notable being he’s the fastest character in this battle in terms of movement and combat speed. No other character can make such a claim. Tomi has beaten Elektra to death without her being able to land a single hit. Elektra has mach 2 combat speed having parried AK47 rounds (700m/s or mach 2) with sais. He also has in his possession the rabbit talisman giving him movement speed in line with his combat speed.
While Tomi is sitting at the limits of speed his opponents don’t have feats to compare. Amadeus Cho's best speed feat is dodging bullets from a submachine gun and a shotgun. The sub machine gun looks like a MP5K and its muzzle velocity is 375 m/s or mach 1.1. The shotgun isn’t much better assuming it's shooting a slug based on lack of pellet spray in the scan. Gives us a muzzle velocity of 475m/s or mach 1.3. Beast Boy’s best quantifiable speed feat within the limits is also slightly faster than the speed of sound having dodged sound. Using Más y Menos top speed would be grounds for DQ. They state that their top speed is mach 7. Then demonstrated by making a round trip from the east coast to Guatemala in seconds in Titans East - Part 1.You can’t possibly think they are moving ⅓ of their top speed while also claiming their speed alone is enough to ragdoll an elephant.
Transcript of the feat.
Más y Menos: Hola! (They jump down and zip about, always touching.) Somos gemelos. Nacimos con siete veces la habilidad de ser más rápido que el sonido, pero sólo somos poderosos cuando nuestros cuerpos se rozan así! ["Hello! We're twins. We were born with seven times the ability to be faster than sound, but we're only powerful when our bodies are touching each other like this!"]
(The last shot of this sequence is a close-up of their hands, slapping together palm to palm.)
Más y Menos: Más y Menos! Sí podemos! ["Más and Menos! Yes we can!"]
(They dash off, then instantly perch back on Cyborg's shoulders; now they wear stocking caps over their helmets, and Menos holds something before the confused big man's face. Close-up: it is a photograph of the pair, posed in front of a large step pyramid.)
Menos: (from o.c.) Fuimos a Guatemala. ["We went to Guatemala."]
Aside from speed Tomi has hand to hand combat feats. So once he’s within striking distance he should easily tear through them with his claws. Their invisibility or shrinking won’t be an issue as Tomi can fight blind and read minds. Even if he couldn’t read their minds directly, simply the presence of their mind would give away their movements. All he has to do is instantly teleport or run ten meters and start clawing. At mach 3 he would cross that distance in 9 millisecond giving them no time to evade. And even if you believe they can react to his speed in spite of their lack of feats they can’t block his claws.
While I don’t think durability and healing will play much of a factor. Considering Tomi will always be on the move attacking and evading, making tagging him a challenge. Although it would be careless to not touch upon it. Tomi’s blunt force durability feats are much better than what my opponents have shown for striking power. Gorilla form without the momentum of a dive bombing bird only destroyed a catwalk. Repulsor blast knocking back Iron-Man in the suit that was getting picked apart by Steve and Bucky. Not exactly great feats to state they could grievously wound Tomi (level 3 damage). Then there is his healing factor allowing him to trade blows with wolverine in an extended fight. So even fatal wounds can be healed. Such as a stab to the heart. But first the attack would need to be strong enough to damage or break the panther suit. Something even two explosive arrows to the face didn’t do. An explosive arrow for reference. So long as Tomi protects his neck up he should wade through attacks he doesn’t evade for whatever reason.
So if the strategy was simple enough here it is simplified.
Locate the opponents
They are 10 meters apart.
Get to them
Teleportation or Super Speed
Kill them
Well in a confrontation someone has to die. Tomi and Marc would act on this info the fastest so Cho and or Beast Boy would die.
The Twist
Del Lago would be problematic if the fight were happening in the lake and Tomi didn't have superspeed or a teleporter to get out. But Tomi wouldn't even get in the water and he does have those items to get him out. The parasite spawns don't become a problem until the fight starts. They honestly shouldn't be a problem because Tomi has a stone stare should apply here. Even then Tomi is a superspeed teleporting ninja as long as he's on the move they can't realistically harm him through the MCU Panther Suit.
Rebuttal
For anyone that hasn't followed this scenario or aware of certain events our teams haven't seen each other since the start. Tomi, who was in street clothes at the start, has worn the MCU Panther suit for nearly the entirety of the scenario. So neither Beast Boy (their scout) nor Amadeus Cho would know he's still alive. Participants know when a character is killed but not told who. While that doesn't invalidate their prep it does bring into question how they would make plans for Tomi without this knowledge. Now onto the actual counters.
ho didn't tell BB everything. Back during the intermission, BB (scouting as an eagle) got to witness Deadpool's teleporter in action against the Spider-men. Ever since then, Cho had his mind set on hacking it. Upon your team's arrival, a quick scan of Gorgon's person will confirm the teleporter's existence and the potential of this strategy.
We'll go over the LYLA A.I. first. Owned by Miguel O'Hara, the Spider-Man of 2099, LYLA has shown the capability to hack technology remotely. She's shown to capability to overtake computers at range, and she's good enough to shut down advanced androids from the future, such as Electro 2099
So, Cho will begin hacking the teleporter as soon as Gorgon is within 100 meters of him (the maximum hacking distance allowed). Gorgon and Backlash will know our team is present but they won't be able to see us due to the invisibility cloak and BB's ant form, which will give Cho the several seconds he needs to hack the teleporter. Once he does, it's game over for Gorgon. Though Cho is limited by the same 50 foot rule that Gorgon was (and Geek ruled that Cho must also be within 50 feet of Gorgon to start teleporting him), it's more than enough.
My initial reaction was that it would be easy for Cho to do. Tomi doesn't have the means to stop him other than taking off the teleporter and probably wouldn't know to do so. But then you stated the time it would take Cho to pull off the hack and the distance you're allowed to start your tampering. Which is where this falls apart.
Tomi and Marc were running from the gas mach 1 via rabbit talisman and wouldn't have stopped until the confrontation was initiated at the 10 meter mark. So lets say Tomi is moving at a constant speed of mach 1 over the 100 meters. Meaning he won't accelerate to mach 3 at 10 meters. Cho would only have 0.291 seconds (291 milliseconds) to pull off the hack before he has to start fighting Tomi and Marc who are now at arms length. That very little time than the several seconds you stated Cho needs to pull off his hack. The time is slightly lower when you factor in Tomi only has to be mach 1 for 90 meters and the last 10 is mach 3. Which means plan A and B goes up in smoke if the hacking strategy is carried out to perfection. Unless you backtrack and lower your estimate of how long it would take Cho to scan then hack the teleporter I can't possibly see hacking being a factor in this fight. As the teleporter is the only thing on Tomi that can be hacked.
I didn't overlook the fact that Cho is banking on his invisibility keeping him hidden for the remainder 3.709 seconds. However the scenario doesn't favor Cho. He can only be invisible to sight so he can still be detected by any other means. Such as sound, smell and telepathy. I've shown Tomi can fight blind doing so while blitzing Shang Chi. So once Tomi is close enough he will detect Cho who has zero stealth feats. Yeah you can bring up Cho can hide his thoughts but that only matters if Cho knows he's fighting a telepath. Which wouldn't happen since the limits on telepathy only allows for mind reading. Also Tomi has detected shield's ambush while they were wearing PSI Blockers.
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Telepathy
We expect you to argue that Gorgon will use TP to locate Cho and attack him before he has time to hack the teleporter. That won't be the case for two reasons.
1) Amadeus is highly resistant to telepathy.
It's cool that you've read my arguments. But meta gaming your way through this won't change anything if you can't prove Cho will know his opponent is Tomi. Even in your counters to telepathy it only proves Cho can't be telepathically controlled. But even Mr X can read his mind. Tomi doesn't have to understand what he is reading to know where Cho is.
2)Gorgon has range problems. I don't recall a single instance of him reading someone's mind from more than like 10 meters away.
I agree there isn't one but at the same time this fight starts 10 meters apart. So what of it?
Anyway out of the six examples you give for Tomi's telepathy 4 are written by Hickman. The one writer who doesn't write Tomi with telepathy. Past or present New Warrior to Current X-Men you won't find a single telepathic feat for Tomi written by Hickman. Which isn't a bad thing as he has a high opinion of Tomi in combat.
The only scan that proves your point is the Old Man Logan instance as he was actively using his telepathy. Which is why I've already agreed.
So all BB and Cho need to do is stay a little farther away from him until the teleporter is hacked and they're in the clear.
I should also mention that if, somehow, hacking the teleporter doesn't work at all, Cho will just throw the impact dial at Gorgon instead of getting Gorgon to the impact dial. Since Gorgon can't read Cho's mind, he won't see it coming if it's thrown from behind. But it won't come to this.
So Cho is a sitting duck and Beast Boy is making a break for it.
The problem with the Impact Dial strategy is to properly use it you not only have to touch your opponent but also have the strength to hold it in place because of the recoil. It isn't an explosive, more like a strong punch. So even if it could be triggered by throwing it the impact would be minimal if not held in place. This would also hold true if Cho could teleport Tomi to it. But from how much force it has absorbed there would be no one strong enough to hold it.
The Impact Dial is attached to the user's hand for a reason.
Marc has two main powers, Psi-Whips and Misting. The former lets him conjure psionic energy whips from his hands and the latter lets him transform his body into a gaseous state. These two abilities are his primary forms of offence and defence respectively.
The second and much less well-known piece of equipment is Miwa's pistol from the manga World Trigger. This gun shoots "Lead Bullets" that, instead of dealing any direct damage, attach weights to whatever they hit, slowing down their movements if not incapacitating them outright. When several shots are used Lead Bullets are even able to incapacitate Rabits, powerful mechanical soldiers with immense strength.
MI has already gone over some issues with your plan and made some initial counters, but honestly, I don't really have any counters of my own because your strategy barely registers Marc as a factor in the first place. You made a whole section discussing all the ways you can counter Gorgon and for Marc, you basically just said "uh they just hit him I guess". So let's talk about what a mistake that is.
Initial Attack
As MI already emphasised, this is a confrontation and we start at 10m. Yes, your characters have some time to prepare but they have no real information on what they're preparing for or who, which by itself makes your strategy much less certain. You've said that BB will transform, and I quote, "When the opponents are in sight", failing to recognise that if you can see them then they can most certainly see you. Meaning that you've now tipped Marc off to look out for any insects whilst also revealing very early on what Gar's powers are. This makes this:
First, I'm curious what's stopping BB from just flying up to him as a tiny insect and then one-shotting him as a clawed animal, like he did to multiple contestants throughout the Games. Unlike those characters, Backlash will know that BB is somewhere near but that knowledge ultimately won't help if he can't see him.
A much worse argument, since Marc will know exactly what to look out for, you literally transformed in front of him. But I'll tell you what's stopping him. 1) Gar is noticeably slower than Marc given that his best feat is moving comparably to sound (i.e. Mach 1) while Marc and his peers are explicitly notably faster than such speeds in combat given uber bullet timing, being faster than bullet timers and nigh-blitzing them outright 2) Gar doesn't hit hard enough to one-shot Marc, not sure why you thought he did 3) Marc is ridiculously well composed in fights and you demonstrating Gar's shapeshifting in front of him means he won't be surprised when it happens, he'll just be ready and it's realistically possible for him to just dodge or block it with the shield. 4) Marc has thought-activated intangibility which you seem to have entirely forgotten existed because it gives him a get-out-of-jail-free card for any surprise attack. He can just mist away from this entire initial attack and reposition himself somewhere more favourable, either for the long term or for immediate advantage.
What's more likely though is that he'd be ready and waiting for Gar's attack (all the more so since his telepathic teammate can give him a heads up) and would use himself to bait him in for a counter-attack with his whips. This is very easy to do since they're also thought-activated, move at supersonic speeds, can turn in mid-air and be launched in groups at once or be used as an AOE blast. No matter how you look at it this is a poor way to try and take him down, but it's also about as good as can be expected given the lack of knowledge your team has coming into this.
Cho's part is fairly irrelevant given that he'll be preoccupied with Tomi, but I do still want to mention that listing an EMP as a useful attack amongst a lot of other tech-based gear seems poorly thought out since Cho would just be incapacitating himself by quite a bit. Also, Marc could just mist through it anyways.
The Battle At Hand
Speaking frankly, Gar is ill-equipped to beating Marc. From what's been shown none of his forms can survive being pierced by Marc's Psi-Whips nor do they have any form of offence that can't be dealt with by Marc's combination of skill speed powers and gear. So all his shapeshifting will really do here is be a stalling mechanism, one arguably outdone twofold by Marc's own misting as even as a fly he's still vulnerable to certain attacks. As for Cho, well, Marc has never needed his eyes to track an opponent, and in this case, I think Marc's trion gun would be quite helpful here as it operates completely differently from any kind of firearm Cho has encountered. Math of any kind requires information, and here Cho has none. Worse still, any calculations he does make under the assumption that it functions in the ways he's used to could end up being fatal. He has no way of knowing that, for example, these bullets are unaffected by air resistance. Nor, oh I don't know, the fact that they can be programmed to turn at sharp angles mid-flight. His over-reliance on predictions would be a boon against most opponents, but against Marc they'll be his downfall. And if he gets hit he'll be notably incapacitated, or at least have his mobility limited to the extent that he can no longer reliably avoid attacks from Tomi (assuming he could at all to begin with), at which point its curtains. Going back to the invisibility cloak I'd also like to say that it's hardly absolute, nor is it at all suited to actually fighting in. Since it's a cloak, if Cho wants to shoot a gun or throw a grenade or whatever then he'll have to at the very least move a hand or a barrel out of the cloak to do so, speak nothing of trying to run away from a teleporting ninja. So on top of not obscuring him from other senses, your own strategy relies on him regularly exposing himself visibly in small amounts.
While he's no Supermath genius, I still want to emphasise Marc's skill and experience here. Not for the vague benefit of "fighting better" but for the opportunity for specific tactics. Given the circumstances of the Hunger Games being what they are, it would be fairly simple to goad Gar and Cho into doubting their temporary alliance by reminding them that they'll be killing each other after this, a fact I imagine neither are all that comfortable with and one which would draw doubt to their ability to trust one another. Marc is no stranger to fighting in groups nor to somewhat underhanded tactics and these are the kinds of things he would do to throw your team off of their game. This is on top of the obvious things to do like repositioning away from the Del Gado, which is relatively given his team's much greater mobility or dropping out of sight and using Tomi as bait to set up a killing blow, something he's happily done to people he actually likes.
You haven't disputed that Cho can hack the teleporter in just a few seconds - your main counterpoint is that Gorgon will locate and take him out even faster. But your argument for locating him isn't very convincing.
It’s important to point out that this is a confrontation meaning our characters start 10 meters apart. Allowing our character to know if they can’t see their opponents that they are invisible 10 meters away
If a contestant sees an enemy more than 10 meters away, he knows he can't attack until he gets closer, per tourney rules. But if he cannot see or detect said enemy in the first place, it's not like there's some magical warning system that will alert him lol. At least I don't think there is...
Even if I'm wrong and this can actually be exploited, it wouldn't help much. The battlefield is quite large so Gorgon would still need to be pretty lucky to randomly stumble within 10 meters of Cho in the first several seconds after arriving, and even then he wouldn't know which direction Cho is 10 meters away from him in. Not to mention that if the 10 meter rule works like an alert, Cho would know about it and position himself strategically during prep. Like, for instance, at the top of one of those large trees you can find all around Loot Lake (BB can help him up), such that Gorgon passing by on the ground wouldn't get within 10 meters of him. This would also ensure Tomi's TP can't reach him, since you've agreed how small its range is. I'll let Cho decide whether or not this is actually a good idea.
I should also remind you that Gorgon isn't aware of the urgency of his situation. Maybe, if he goes on a mad dash at Mach speed immediately upon arrival and doesn't stop until he covers every inch of the battlefield, he'd have a small chance of running into Cho before getting hacked. But he doesn't know to do that. You'd think after sprinting across the map at the speed of sound with a grown man over his shoulder he'd like a quick breather? Or to have a brief word with his teammate regarding their new surroundings, the seeming absence of their foes, and their plan to deal with it? They don't even know Cho can turn invisible, so their first thought would be that their opponents are in one of the buildings around or in the middle of the lake. Should Gorgon use the talisman to rush ahead of Backlash and search the buildings, but risk a fight ensuing while his teammate is far away? Should he instead continue lugging Backlash everywhere he goes? Or should they travel together at a slower pace, while staying on high alert? The third option would normally be the most sensible, but in this case (unbeknownst to them), it will give Cho the time he needs to hack the teleporter. So will any pause they make for any reason, including strategizing. There are just so many ways they can go wrong here.
I didn't overlook the fact that Cho is banking on his invisibility keeping him hidden for the remainder 3.709 seconds. However the scenario doesn't favor Cho. He can only be invisible to sight so he can still be detected by any other means. Such as sound, smell and telepathy.
You haven't shown anything regarding superhuman smell or hearing for Gorgon (he was using TP against Shang Chi), and regular senses obviously aren't enough. Gorgon running around at superspeed will create enough noise to drown out any little sound Cho might make, and if it turns out that Cho stinks due to not having bathed in weeks, he finally has the opportunity to do so during prep in the stream connecting Loot Lake to Lazy Lagoon (there's still a small part of it untouched by the storm). Apparently we have half an hour to prep, so we're not short on time.
Telepathy
Your main argument here is that Cho wouldn't know that he's up against Gorgon, so he wouldn't take the countermeasures we suggest.
Yeah you can bring up Cho can hide his thoughts but that only matters if Cho knows he's fighting a telepath.
For anyone that hasn't followed this scenario or aware of certain events our teams haven't seen each other since the start. Tomi, who was in street clothes at the start, has worn the MCU Panther suit for nearly the entirety of the scenario. So neither Beast Boy (their scout) nor Amadeus Cho would know he's still alive. Participants know when a character is killed but not told who. While that doesn't invalidate their prep it does bring into question how they would make plans for Tomi without this knowledge.
First of all there's just the process of elimination. Beast Boy has done a ton of scouting throughout the Games and Cho would've asked to be notified of all the fallen contestants. Since nobody of Gorgon's description popped up, it doesn't take a supergenius to figure that he's the one in the suit. Especially since he also happens to carry a sword - Tomi's preferred weapon.
Then there are Gorgon's glowing eyes - a dead giveaway of his identity. If the BP suit lenses fully obscured them, then the stone stare wouldn't work, in which case you say Tomi would "pop the lenses out with his claws," making them visible again. So not only would eagle-form Beast Boy have spotted them during all the scouting he did, but Cho could also recognize Gorgon as he approaches Loot Lake.
This one is more up to chance, but it's possible that Gorgon petrified one of the sharks back during your Sharknado threat. Tomi was mostly teleporting away but if at any point he glanced at the tornado barreling towards him and some random shark met his gaze, Dusty Divot would have a shark statue and our team would have confirmation of Gorgon's identity. This is because BB was once again scouting as an eagle during that time (it was after he beat Andrew in the sky but before he swooped down to help Cho against Nobunaga and Lucario).
In the comic of Gorgon's first appearance, Daredevil mentions that undead Wolverine has no pulse or heartbeat. Gorgon has also been killed and resurrected multiple times, so the same should go for him. Cho has thermal and life sign scanners so when Gorgon approaches Loot Lake, Cho will see that his life readings are off and that it's good ol' undead Gorgon after all.
Lastly, Cho doesn't even need to be certain that Gorgon is his opponent. Maintaining distance while the teleporter is being hacked is sensible even against non-telepaths, and there's no actual drawback to hiding his thoughts. So from Cho's perspective, if his opponent isn't Gorgon then there's no harm done by these measures, and if he is Gorgon then these measures are vital.
These ways of identifying Gorgon aren't particularly difficult to figure out, but don't forget, Cho is a genius. You've seen the amazing deductions he regularly makes from what seems to be no information at all, so I would expect him to come up with a dozen more ways to identify Gorgon that I couldn't even dream of.
Also Tomi has detected shield's ambush while they were wearing PSI Blockers.
Even in your counters to telepathy it only proves Cho can't be telepathically controlled.
It also proves Cho can conceal his thoughts, as shown in the first scan I posted against Xemnu.
But even Mr X can read his mind. Tomi doesn't have to understand what he is reading to know where Cho is.
If Tomi doesn't understand Cho's mind then he won't be able to extract any information about his location from it. Of course it's possible that Tomi doesn't find people's location by reading their minds but rather by sensing their minds' position in space, if you know what I mean, but I don't recall any evidence of that. And even then you agreed that his range is terrible so he wouldn't be able sense Cho until he's already close to him.
I agree there isn't one but at the same time this fight starts 10 meters apart. So what of it?
So at best, he'll be running around randomly hoping to get within several meters of Cho so that his TP might pick him up (it won't anyway). And if Cho sits on a tree or smthng then he's out of range. Poor Tomi.
Anyway out of the six examples you give for Tomi's telepathy 4 are written by Hickman. The one writer who doesn't write Tomi with telepathy. Past or present New Warrior to Current X-Men you won't find a single telepathic feat for Tomi written by Hickman. Which isn't a bad thing as he has a high opinion of Tomi in combat.
The only scan that proves your point is the Old Man Logan instance as he was actively using his telepathy. Which is why I've already agreed.
Him fighting Shang Chi blind and proclaiming "I feel your fear all around me" pretty clearly suggests a form of TP, but you agreed with my conclusion so I won't press.
Backlash
You've said that BB will transform, and I quote, "When the opponents are in sight", failing to recognise that if you can see them then they can most certainly see you. Meaning that you've now tipped Marc off to look out for any insects whilst also revealing very early on what Gar's powers are. This makes this:
A much worse argument, since Marc will know exactly what to look out for, you literally transformed in front of him.
Sorry I haven't expressed it properly, but the idea was that BB will shrink when the opponents are in sight if he's still charging the impact dial at that time. If he's already done charging it earlier, he obviously won't spend the rest of his prep time as an elephant. Cho would never let him do that. It turns out we have 30 minutes of prep [per geek], so BB will have plenty of time to charge the dial and shrink before your team appears.
That said, even if Marc knew BB's an insect, it wouldn't help. BB can go down to a fraction of a millimeter as a fairyfly, move freely through the grass without being seen, be indistinguishable from millions of other insects in the area, etc etc. It's just too easy to get the drop. But Marc won't even know about BB's ability so it's completely hopeless.
But I'll tell you what's stopping him. 1) Gar is noticeably slower than Marc given that his best feat is moving comparably to sound (i.e. Mach 1) while Marc and his peers are explicitly notably faster than such speeds in combat given uber bullet timing, being faster than bullet timers and nigh-blitzing them outright
I'm not sure if Marc/peers actually need to move much faster than sound to perform those bullet-timing feats, but I don't want to dwell on this because this will be a sneak attack while Marc is occupied with the minion spawn and while Cho is lighting him up from a distance. BB will be attacking from behind or above so Marc won't see him coming.
2) Gar doesn't hit hard enough to one-shot Marc, not sure why you thought he did
Well you haven't provided any piercing durability feats and I see Marc avoiding bullets and bladed weapons all the time. Don't know how going for the head with claws could fail.
3) Marc is ridiculously well composed in fights and you demonstrating Gar's shapeshifting in front of him means he won't be surprised when it happens, he'll just be ready and it's realistically possible for him to just dodge or block it with the shield.
BB won't be demonstrating his shapeshifting in front of him
4) Marc has thought-activated intangibility which you seem to have entirely forgotten existed because it gives him a get-out-of-jail-free card for any surprise attack. He can just mist away from this entire initial attack and reposition himself somewhere more favourable, either for the long term or for immediate advantage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from I can tell, current Backlash can only use his mist form "once a day and only for so long." He makes it sound like he's not as powerful as he once was, so older showings wouldn't apply but if you have more recent instances of him misting multiple times in one day, this can be dismissed. If not, then Backlash is out of luck since he isn't composite and you've already argued misting in his fight against the Fsinister Four (which was only half an hour ago per the host).
Even if he could turn into mist, he'd still need to react to the sneak attack somehow, and even if he did, BB can just turn back into an insect and the difference is that Backlash will have to solidify in 5 seconds while BB can stay like that indefinitely. Once Backlash solidifies he'll be under pressure from the minions and Cho again, while BB can wait for an opportune moment and try to sneak attack once more. BB is risking very little here.
What's more likely though is that he'd be ready and waiting for Gar's attack (all the more so since his telepathic teammate can give him a heads up)
Yeah getting alerted by Gorgon is the only way Backlash could survive, but BB will only attack him after Gorgon is dealt with, per Cho's instructions.
Soupreme part of the post:
Prep / Gorgon
BoF has covered a lot of stuff, specifically in his Gorgon section, a lot for me too. To reiterate and add to our last post, it's been revealed that between the end of our last ambush and your last fight with Fsinister Four, 30 minutes have passed. So, as has been stated, it's fairly likely that the impact dial will be fully charged well before you arrive. This means that something like this;
Not to mention that if the 10 meter rule works like an alert, Cho would know about it and position himself strategically during prep. Like, for instance, at the top of one of those large trees you can find all around Loot Lake (BB can help him up), such that Gorgon passing by on the ground wouldn't get within 10 meters of him. This would also ensure Tomi's TP can't reach him, since you've agreed how small its range is. I'll let Cho decide whether or not this is actually a good idea.
BoF, this post
Is very likely, especially when you consider various factors that don't include your confrontation. Remember, this would be done during prep, and we have no idea you're coming until the last minutes of it. Reasons this is viable include:
Height with which to get better visuals from the Spider-Man 2099 mask
Avoidance of ground-based threats / easier to pick off and provides protection from air based threats
Makes him harder to detect when coupled with invisibility cloak
A better position from which to use ranged projectiles
Given we're in circle, is both a better way to see if the storm starts moving sooner as well as a safe position to be in while safe from the storm
and I'm sure a supergenius like Cho can think of more if a random guy like me can think of these
Really, there's likely less reasons to to stay on the ground than there are to gain height. Beast Boy will be in insect mode as well, doing Beast Boy things nearby, ready to get into action if need be. This means that this;
Tomi and Marc were running from the gas mach 1 via rabbit talisman and wouldn't have stopped until the confrontation was initiated at the 10 meter mark.
Mr. I, first post
Would hold true and you'd end up underneath/near whatever tree. Would you know this? Absolutely not. It would make way more sense for you to scan around the ground first. You can argue telepathy, but as BoF went over, this is unlikely to work for myriad reasons, including Cho knowing that Gorgon was a player in the games. Between having spotted him at the Cornucopia and knowing that he could pressure Spider-Man (who outright mentioned that Gorgon could scrap with/beat Wolverine/Elektra simultaneously) - meaning Cho knows he's a threat who's very unlikely to be put down - is it really a stretch to say that combined with Supermath (i.e having info on his height and build, which the BP suit wouldn't hide), Cho would realize that this could be Gorgon, and thus is far more likely to protect his thoughts? Cho has also encountered Lucario and analyzed how he fights, and Lucario has a form of move reading as well, something that would be evident to someone like Cho. So assuming that contestants have mind reading isn't even a stretch. Thus, protecting his thoughts from anyone he doesn't know is also a worthwhile endeavor.
Further, would Gorgon not be preoccupied attempting to take down the Del Lago parasite fodder, which would come at Gorgon and Backlash immediately upon reaching that 10 meter starting distance?
It's cool that you've read my arguments. But meta gaming your way through this won't change anything if you can't prove Cho will know his opponent is Tomi. Even in your counters to telepathy it only proves Cho can't be telepathically controlled. But even Mr X can read his mind. Tomi doesn't have to understand what he is reading to know where Cho is.
Mr I, post 1
You mean done research? Lol it isn't metagaming to come up with counters to a big part of your arsenal, especially when there's several ways to back this stuff up. Cho resisting Xemnu happened years after the encounter with Mr. X - is it unlikely that he learned or was taught to protect his mind afterwards? Clearly something changed, as he hid his thoughts from Xemnu.
But then you stated the time it would take Cho to pull off the hack and the distance you're allowed to start your tampering. Which is where this falls apart.
Unless you backtrack and lower your estimate of how long it would take Cho to scan then hack the teleporter I can't possibly see hacking being a factor in this fight
Mr I, post 1
To be perfectly honest with you, the several second statement was made by BoF and not me. I don't think it'd take that long since the teleporter has literally 0 hacking defense whatsoever and while it would take seconds if it was Cho himself doing it (because he'd have to input stuff into his supercomputer, etc), Amadeus is fortunate enough to have with him the LYLA AI who has nanosecond timing capabilities. So she'd hack your teleporter the moment it's within range, and then it's game over for you upon touching the impact dial coupled with ants triggering it.
You did mention this as a potential counter to the impact dial:
The problem with the Impact Dial strategy is to properly use it you not only have to touch your opponent but also have the strength to hold it in place because of the recoil. It isn't an explosive, more like a strong punch. So even if it could be triggered by throwing it the impact would be minimal if not held in place. This would also hold true if Cho could teleport Tomi to it. But from how much force it has absorbed there would be no one strong enough to hold it.
Mr. I, post 1
However, since we've covered and vehemently believe that hacking the teleporter is a very strong option, Gorgon would be teleported onto the Impact Dial on the ground. Thus, the ground would be taking the recoil as opposed to a person, and the full impact would be unleashed upon Gorgon, causing mad damage or one-shotting him outright.
Backlash
You've said that BB will transform, and I quote, "When the opponents are in sight", failing to recognise that if you can see them then they can most certainly see you. Meaning that you've now tipped Marc off to look out for any insects whilst also revealing very early on what Gar's powers are. This makes this:
A much worse argument, since Marc will know exactly what to look out for, you literally transformed in front of him.
Maestro, post 1
Been addressed both above and in BoF's part. There's not a chance you should be seeing him transform, given we're in active hiding from before you've even arrived, and further you also have 20 fodder to deal with immediately upon arriving which should take your immediate attention over two people you can't even see.
Cho's part is fairly irrelevant given that he'll be preoccupied with Tomi, but I do still want to mention that listing an EMP as a useful attack amongst a lot of other tech-based gear seems poorly thought out since Cho would just be incapacitating himself by quite a bit. Also, Marc could just mist through it anyways.
Maestro, post 1
Problem with this counter: I EMP proofed all my gear rather early into the games. This includes supercomputer, mask, gauntlet. The WS arm can emit EMPs so it should stand to reason it too is EMP resistant. The same screenshot from PM correspondence with geek shows what I did with the magnet grenade too (I wasn't allowed to at the time due to time constraints in-game, but did so later). The rust monster antennae is attached to the grenade, meaning that once Cho throws the grenade, it's shrapnel will immediately be sent flying towards nearby metal. This means that Backlash's MCU Cap shield will be rusted over and gone by the end of this encounter.
As for Cho, well, Marc has never needed his eyes to track an opponent, and in this case, I think Marc's trion gun would be quite helpful here as it operates completely differently from any kind of firearm Cho has encountered. Math of any kind requires information, and here Cho has none. Worse still, any calculations he does make under the assumption that it functions in the ways he's used to could end up being fatal. He has no way of knowing that, for example, these bullets are unaffected by air resistance. Nor, oh I don't know, the fact that they can be programmed toturn at sharp angles mid-flight. His over-reliance on predictions would be a boon against most opponents, but against Marc they'll be his downfall. And if he gets hit he'll be notably incapacitated, or at least have his mobility limited to the extent that he can no longer reliably avoid attacks from Tomi (assuming he could at all to begin with), at which point its curtains. Going back to the invisibility cloak I'd also like to say that it's hardly absolute, nor is it at all suited to actually fighting in. Since it's a cloak, if Cho wants to shoot a gun or throw a grenade or whatever then he'll have to at the very least move a hand or a barrel out of the cloak to do so, speak nothing of trying to run away from a teleporting ninja. So on top of not obscuring him from other senses, your own strategy relies on him regularly exposing himself visibly in small amounts.
Maestro, post 1
Impressive counters, to say the least. A few problems, however:
"Marc has never needed his eyes to track an opponent" is a rather bold statement when you consider that it's not one you proved in this post. Given we get no new post, proving it in the next gives us no chance to counter.
Cho has no reason to assume guns in this scenario are like guns in the real world. Hell, one of the guns he's currently carrying is a flintlock from Oda Nobunaga, which packs way more firepower than a typical flintlock. Further, the "bullets" shot from the Lead Gun are clearly not like actual bullets, so assuming they are is pointless.
As was brought up by DedmanWalkin in the main thread, Backlash possesses no Trion. However, that's not the point for this point. The point for this point is that you yourself said someone "loads it with physical ammo" so to be quite frank after all these fights (two player ambushes + Fsinister Four + I'm probably forgetting more) you should be completely out of ammo.
Cho exposing himself is of no issue when thanks to Supermath, every single shot will be leading to an outcome of pain.
Conclusion
Cho and Beast Boy have 30 minutes from the end of everyone's respective last encounters to the moment the fight starts. In this time, after charging the impact dial, Amadeus and Gar will get into a better overall position for any threat as they know the Hunger Games is no safe space.
There is no reason for Amadeus not to hide his thoughts, and too many reasons for him to. The teleporter hack should take very little time given LYLA AI is a fast asf gorl and on our side. From there, Gorgon is either Impact Dialed or fish food.
Backlash is impressive but given no clue where we are and 20 parasitic fodder to deal with, he'll be preoccupied and eventually put down between Cho's supermath and a Beast Boy sneak attack.
You haven't disputed that Cho can hack the teleporter in just a few seconds - your main counterpoint is that Gorgon will locate and take him out even faster. But your argument for locating him isn't very convincing.
I mean it's quite clear that Tomi has no means to detect his teleporter is being hacked. What's also clear is that Tomi is so much faster than your team that they don't stand a chance the moment he becomes aware of them.
If a contestant sees an enemy more than 10 meters away, he knows he can't attack until he gets closer, per tourney rules. But if he cannot see or detect said enemy in the first place, it's not like there's some magical warning system that will alert him lol. At least I don't think there is...
First off Tomi knows he's in a confrontation having run to Loot Lake for that reason. So no matter how you phrase it Tomi starts 10 meters away from his opponents because those are the rules of a confrontation.
Even if I'm wrong and this can actually be exploited, it wouldn't help much. The battlefield isquite largeso Gorgon would still need to be pretty lucky to randomly stumble within 10 meters of Cho in the first several seconds after arriving, and even then he wouldn't know which direction Cho is 10 meters away from him in. Not to mention that if the 10 meter rule works like an alert, Cho would know about it and position himself strategically during prep. Like, for instance, at the top of one of thoselarge treesyou can find all around Loot Lake (BB can help him up), such that Gorgon passing by on the ground wouldn't get within 10 meters of him. This would also ensure Tomi's TP can't reach him, since you've agreed how small its range is. I'll let Cho decide whether or not this is actually a good idea.
There was no mention of Cho trying to climb a tree during your 30 mins of prep. Changing up your prep mid debate is a transparent cop out strategy. But even then Cho and Beast Boy would at some point be 10 meters away from Tomi because those are the rules for this match. So the debate on whether Tomi finds Cho is over the moment this match starts. With that Supreme has already agreed that Tomi telepathy will work within 10 meters meaning there isn't a debate on will Tomi's telepathy be effective at this range. On top of that telepathy is at the speed of thought so Tomi would glean all the information he needs faster than they can enact their plans.
I should also remind you that Gorgon isn't aware of the urgency of his situation.Maybe,if he goes on a mad dash at Mach speed immediately upon arrival and doesn't stop until he covers every inch of the battlefield, he'd have a small chance of running into Cho before getting hacked.
The urgency is Tomi has to finish this scenario before an approaching storm kills him. What else is there to think about other than find the remaining players and kill them?
Then there is the fact that at mach 1 Tomi can cover 1km in 3 seconds. Loot lake isn't close to a 1km length. It would take no more than a second for Tomi to search Loot Lake. Considering he's also using telepathy to search narrows down their location. I guess neither of you will address Cho's stealth or lack thereof against Tomi, a trained ninja.
But he doesn't know to do that. You'd think after sprinting across the map at the speed of sound with a grown man over his shoulder he'd like a quick breather?
The Rabbit Talisman is magic and doesn't factor in the characters physical build when it gives super speed. If you didn't notice, a literal sumo wrestler blitzed Jackie Chan with it. Just so you know the Rabbit Talisman has allowed Jade to go from San Francisco to Cape Canaveral FL (JCA Shanghai Moon) on a non stop run. So we can conclude using it doesn't expend any of the user's stamina. Also Marc and Tomi would both be running because long they are in contact it would benefit them both.
Or to have a brief word with his teammate regarding their new surroundings, the seeming absence of their foes, and their plan to deal with it? They don't even know Cho can turn invisible, so their first thought would be that their opponents are in one of the buildings around or in the middle of the lake.
If your team is hiding in the middle of the Lake then this fight wouldn't happen. Because Tomi would have searched around the lake to conclude they are somewhere within the lake and dismiss them.
Should Gorgon use the talisman to rush ahead of Backlash and search the buildings, but risk a fight ensuing while his teammate is far away? Should he instead continue lugging Backlash everywhere he goes? Or should they travel together at a slower pace, while staying on high alert? The third option would normally be the most sensible, but in this case (unbeknownst to them), it will give Cho the time he needs to hack the teleporter. So will any pause they make for any reason, including strategizing. There are just so many ways they can go wrong here.
You're over complicating things only because you think it would somehow stall for Cho. But our post in the main thread didn't include strategizing or anything of the sort. Why would they strategize now when they are certain their opponents are nearby wouldn't they just start their search? Searching becomes a non issue because of super speed and telepathy. Those two things together cover all the details of the search if a search is even necessary.
You haven't shown anything regarding superhuman smell or hearing for Gorgon (he was using TP against Shang Chi), and regular senses obviously aren't enough. Gorgon running around at superspeed will create enough noise to drown out any little sound Cho might make, and if it turns out that Cho stinks due to not having bathed in weeks, he finally has the opportunity to do so during prep in the stream connecting Loot Lake to Lazy Lagoon (there's still a small part of it untouched by the storm). Apparently we have half an hour to prep, so we're not short on time.
A character that walks around blind folded doesn't have showings of superhuman senses? So what does he read the mind of the surroundings to know where obstacles are? You aren't making much sense here. If you don't know, maybe ask or read up on the character. That also applies to your point about making noise while searching. Tomi's first appearance is him sneaking up on Wolverine, requiring him to make no noise.
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Your main argument here is that Cho wouldn't know that he's up against Gorgon, so he wouldn't take the countermeasures we suggest.
First of all there's just the process of elimination. Beast Boy has done a ton of scouting throughout the Games and Cho would've asked to be notified of all the fallen contestants. Since nobody of Gorgon's description popped up, it doesn't take a supergenius to figure that he's the one in the suit. Especially since he also happens to carry a sword - Tomi's preferred weapon.
Beast Boy does not know Tomi and would have no way of confirming if he died before, during or after he teamed up with Cho. By the time they teamed up, a number of the players had already died.
Then there are Gorgon's glowing eyes - a dead giveaway of his identity. If the BP suit lenses fully obscured them, then the stone stare wouldn't work, in which case you say Tomi would "pop the lenses out with his claws," making them visible again. So not only would eagle-form Beast Boy have spotted them during all the scouting he did, but Cho could also recognize Gorgon as he approaches Loot Lake.
I also stated the panther suit shouldn't hinder the stone stare because special lenses are needed to filter it out. Also Tomi wasn't allowed to use his stone stare in that fight so he would have no reason to pop out the lenses.
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This one is more up to chance, but it's possible that Gorgon petrified one of the sharks back during your Sharknado threat. Tomi was mostly teleporting away but if at any point he glanced at the tornado barreling towards him and some random shark met his gaze, Dusty Divot would have a shark statue and our team would have confirmation of Gorgon's identity. This is because BB was once again scouting as an eagle during that time (it was after he beat Andrew in the sky but before he swooped down to help Cho against Nobunaga and Lucario).
In the comic of Gorgon's first appearance, Daredevil mentions that undead Wolverine has no pulse or heartbeat. Gorgon has also been killed and resurrected multiple times, so the same should go for him. Cho has thermal and life sign scanners so when Gorgon approaches Loot Lake, Cho will see that his life readings are off and that it's good ol' undead Gorgon after all.
Lastly, Cho doesn't even need to be certain that Gorgon is his opponent. Maintaining distance while the teleporter is being hacked is sensible even against non-telepaths, and there's no actual drawback to hiding his thoughts. So from Cho's perspective, if his opponent isn't Gorgon then there's no harm done by these measures, and if he is Gorgon then these measures are vital.
It's painfully obvious you're just listing off potential counters with no thought to their plausibility and with great reluctance I'm replying to them. Tomi took no damage from that encounter so it is logical he never got close to the tornado having teleported away. He's also been revived by the 5 after dying in the X of Swords event. So unless they use Hand magic to bring him back he wouldn't be an undead ninja. Maintaining distance is a given but how does that equate to hiding thoughts? A very specific action that applies only to telepaths.
These ways of identifying Gorgon aren't particularly difficult to figure out, but don't forget, Cho is a genius. You've seen the amazing deductions he regularly makes from what seems to be no information at all, so I would expect him to come up with a dozen more ways to identify Gorgon that I couldn't even dream of.
It is possible for Cho to figure out who's behind the panther mask because he wouldn't have this information at the start of the confrontation and he wouldn't be able to obtain that info from Beast Boy.
The shield agents are wearing all the same gear Wolverine and Elektra are wearing. So that isn't it.
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If Tomi doesn't understand Cho's mind then he won't be able to extract any information about his location from it. Of course it's possible that Tomi doesn't find people's location by reading their minds but rather by sensing their minds' position in space, if you know what I mean, but I don't recall any evidence of that. And even then you agreed that his range is terrible so he wouldn't be able sense Cho until he's already close to him.
Trying to predict his movements based on how he thinks would be impossible but that doesn't apply to memories. Everything Beast boy and Cho have done would be a memory. Tomi found Nick Fury's location using this exact same tactic against Elektra.
So at best, he'll be running around randomly hoping to get within several meters of Cho so that his TP might pick him up (it won't anyway). And if Cho sits on a tree or smthng then he's out of range. Poor Tomi.
So your counter is this fight doesn't happen because Tomi won't find Cho because he's over 10 meters putting him out of range of telepathy. You do understand that Cho can't initiate his plan unless he gets within 10 meters of Tomi. So this whole hiding strategy works against your team with the storm approaching.
Him fighting Shang Chi blind and proclaiming "I feel your fear all around me" pretty clearly suggests a form of TP, but you agreed with my conclusion so I won't press.
So you think Tomi feeling fear around him is a statement that implies telepathy. But at the same time Tomi has no feats of using telepathy to locate someone. Even though in the scenario you're arguing Tomi would be fighting while using telepathy to compensate for his lack of sight. I'm impressed you could hold those two contradicting thoughts in your head while writing your post.
Would hold true and you'd end up underneath/near whatever tree. Would you know this? Absolutely not. It would make way more sense for you to scan around the ground first. You can argue telepathy, but as BoF went over, this is unlikely to work for myriad reasons, including Cho knowing that Gorgon was a player in the games. Between having spotted him at the Cornucopia and knowing that he could pressure Spider-Man (who outright mentioned that Gorgon could scrap with/beat Wolverine/Elektra simultaneously) - meaning Cho knows he's a threat who's very unlikely to be put down - is it really a stretch to say that combined with Supermath (i.e having info on his height and build, which the BP suit wouldn't hide), Cho would realize that this could be Gorgon, and thus is far more likely to protect his thoughts? Cho has also encountered Lucario and analyzed how he fights, and Lucario has a form of move reading as well, something that would be evident to someone like Cho. So assuming that contestants have mind reading isn't even a stretch. Thus, protecting his thoughts from anyone he doesn't know is also a worthwhile endeavor.
Again if they aren't stopping until the confrontation that means they would have searched the area. If Tomi can't find you then this confrontation never happens. But that makes no sense because Cho has no stealth feats and he's up against a master ninja.
All of your counters require Cho deducing that after he has seen Tomi which contradicts prepping to countering him. So Cho wouldn't let Beast Boy know to explicitly avoid going near Tomi before he arrives. At the speed Tomi will find Cho he also wouldn't pre-emptively hide his thoughts.
You mean done research? Lol it isn't metagaming to come up with counters to a big part of your arsenal, especially when there's several ways to back this stuff up. Cho resisting Xemnu happened years after the encounter with Mr. X - is it unlikely that he learned or was taught to protect his mind afterwards? Clearly something changed, as he hid his thoughts from Xemnu.
Even if you could state Cho knows all of Tomi's abilities there is no way you can justify Cho knowing Tomi is alive. Requiring him to have predicted the entire scenario from day 1. And then go on to devise a strategy so Beast Boy (who has no knowledge of him) would be able to bypass getting within range of him at in point in this match. Seems a little too convenient of an argument.
Yeah Cho learned to deal with telepathy while actively being telepathically attacked. Telepathic attacks aren't allowed so why would Cho ever take that specific precaution to hide his thought.
Further, would Gorgon not be preoccupied attempting to take down the Del Lago parasite fodder, which would come at Gorgon and Backlash immediately upon reaching that 10 meter starting distance?
The fodder only appears once the fight starts so if the fight isn't starting they aren't moving.
You mean done research? Lol it isn't metagaming to come up with counters to a big part of your arsenal, especially when there's several ways to back this stuff up. Cho resisting Xemnu happened years after the encounter with Mr. X - is it unlikely that he learned or was taught to protect his mind afterwards? Clearly something changed, as he hid his thoughts from Xemnu.
To be perfectly honest with you, the several second statement was made by BoF and not me. I don't think it'd take that long since the teleporter has literally 0 hacking defense whatsoever and while it would take seconds if it was Cho himself doing it (because he'd have to input stuff into his supercomputer, etc), Amadeus is fortunate enough to have with him theLYLA AI who has nanosecond timing capabilities.
Well you should have looked over your team's post because BoF doubled down and made it clear Cho is doing the hack.
"The main player, however, is Amadeus Cho himself"
"So, Cho will begin hacking the teleporter as soon as Gorgon is within 100 meters of him (the maximum hacking distance allowed)."
So she'd hack your teleporter the moment it's within range, and then it's game over for you upon touching the impact dial coupled with ants triggering it.
You clearly have no idea how the impact dial works because what you are describing isn't how it's used. The ant can't trigger it if you plan to use it on Tomi. For it to go off it needs to be pressed down on the target. Seeing as Tomi wouldn't just lay down on it and the ants aren't strong enough to hold it. Again it is a strong punch not an explosive.
However, since we've covered and vehemently believe that hacking the teleporterisa very strong option, Gorgon would be teleported onto the Impact Dial on the ground. Thus, the ground would be taking the recoil as opposed to a person, and the full impact would be unleashed upon Gorgon, causing mad damage or one-shotting him outright.
This teleport strategy wouldn't work as you're describing. The only way Tomi could get onto the dial is to step on it. Then there is the fact that the ground couldn't keep it in place while taking the recoil. The ground would crater underneath the pressure. You're arguing the dial is charged up to the limit of this scenario (small building level). A character with small building level striking power would punch a hole in the ground.
The reason I stress needing the strength to hold the dial is because there is an instance of the dial doing significantly less damage with more charge. The first time we see it a Priest put Luffy on his back with one hit. But later when Usopp hits Luffy it doesn't do nearly as much damage. Even though it was charged with Luffy's own striking power. Why? Because Usopp breaks his arm trying to use it.
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Your plan comes down to charging up the dial to the limit and hope it one shots. But it isn't being used properly and I've already shown a small building size character (Stonewall) punching Tomi and Tomi getting back up a page later. So even if everything goes as planned they still wouldn't get the desired results.
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Closing
Now this match is mostly centered around can Tomi find Cho. And from what was argued that specific point would be the entire reason for this to be a match. Neither Beast Boy or Cho are going to reveal themselves and are also conveniently placing themselves outside of the 10 meter starting distance during prep. They did bring up a good point that Tomi wouldn't randomly stumble into them arriving at Loot Lake. But that also works both ways because Tomi won't randomly be within a 100 meters of Cho if they aren't actively searching for him. At the speed Tomi is allowed to travel he would clear 100 meters in 200 milliseconds. Taking into account Cho's lack of stealth it stands to reason that with or without telepathy he would be found by Tomi. Who fights Hand Ninjas blindfolded.
Whether Tomi finds him before or after getting within 10 meters he'll be too fast for Cho to put up a fight. This is why they're banking on the teleportation into impact dial strategy one-shotting Tomi. Regardless if this works as intended it wouldn't be a one shot because Tomi is near if not at the limits on durability. Which is also the limit on striking power.
Also with this being a confrontation means a character will die. Taking into consideration what Tomi brings to this fight should favor him to survive this fight or at the very least keep him from being dead first. Between his durability, gear, powers, speed and superior skills he would win any encounter when he comes face to face with an opponent. Healing will play a big part since his opponents are trying to avoid a direct fight. Meaning the longer this fight goes on the longer he has to heal any damage done. Considering Tomi slugged it out with Wolverine it wouldn't take very long from him to heal.
Backlash Lashes Back
Beast Boy
Sorry I haven't expressed it properly, but the idea was that BB will shrink when the opponents are in sightif he's still charging the impact dial at that time.If he's already done charging it earlier, he obviously won't spend the rest of his prep time as an elephant. Cho would never let him do that. It turns out we have 30 minutes of prep [per geek], so BB will have plenty of time to charge the dial and shrink before your team appears.
I mean that's just straight up not what you said. Elephant or not, the implication was pretty clear that your plan was: charge impact dial > wait for them to arrive > transform when they're close. But you have 30 minutes apparently so it's fine I guess, that's time enough.
That said, even if Marc knew BB's an insect, it wouldn't help. BB can go down to a fraction of a millimeter as a fairyfly, move freely through the grass without being seen, be indistinguishable from millions of other insects in the area, etc etc. It's just too easy to get the drop. But Marc won't even know about BB's ability so it's completely hopeless.
I mean, not really? Even if he's entirely undetectable as a fly, the moment he transforms into anything useful he won't be, and given Marc's experience and composure, his advantage in speed which I'll talk about more, and the fact that his two key powers are thought activated means that it's entirely plausible that he just out-reacts Gar. He literally just has to think to avoid this attack.
I'm not sure if Marc/peers actually need to move much faster than sound to perform those bullet-timing feats
I mean I showed Zealot blitzing a bullet timer, I don't know what else you would call that. And there's no universe where Grifter dodging bullets from 6 different shooters each a metre away from him is doable without being faster than the bullets. Between that, Marc's own feats, and his explicit and consistent superiority to casual bullet timers he's pretty clearly in the supersonic range in combat, which is much more than can be said for Gar and his one singular feat.
but I don't want to dwell on this because this will be a sneak attack
Sneak attacks are generally a lot less effective on people that are expecting them and who have great senses anyways.
while Marc is occupied with the minion spawn and while Cho is lighting him up from a distance.
Not likely. For one, Cho will be preoccupied with dying to Tomi, but more importantly, Marc has no reason to stay and fight the Del Lago spawn. He'd be would be exposing himself massively, which he'd obviously be aware of, he gains absolutely nothing from killing them, and he has zero need to either because he can just mist away and be fine. It's for instances like this that I spent time emphasising Marc's experience and tactical expertise so much. He's not going to do something that could get him killed because he knows better than that. The only situation in which he'd stay and fight is if he intentionally wanted to draw his opponents out, which would be great for you because then he'd be expecting the sneak attack even more than he already would be.
Well you haven't provided any piercing durability feats and I see Marc avoiding bullets and bladed weapons all the time. Don't know how going for the head with claws could fail.
And you haven't posted any piercing feats for Gar... do you not get how this works? It's hilarious honestly, your entire strategy revolves around and in fact, relies on Gar sneaking up on Marc and one-shotting him, but you apparently didn't think it was worth showing any feats for the form in which he would do so. Every single feat of strength you showed was from an animal form that utilised blunt force and you expect me to just accept that he'll one-shot someone as durable as Marc with an unspecified "clawed animal", a type of animal you showed no feats for, because...? If we were talking about a sword through the brain or the heart maybe I could see your thought process but as is I fail to understand why any old claw swipe is somehow a guaranteed kill shot. Especially against a superhuman half-alien with a great healing factor. I don't think I mentioned it in our opener so apologies if not, but anyone who's been following the hunger games will know that MI and I have relied on or at least mentioned Marc and Tomi's healing in almost every fight or threat.
Correct me if I'm wrong
You're wrong.
but from I can tell, current Backlash can only use his mist form"once a day and only for so long."He makes it sound like he's not as powerful as he once was, soolder showings wouldn't applybut if you have more recent instances of him misting multiple times in one day, this can be dismissed. If not, then Backlash is out of luck since he isn't composite and you've already argued misting in his fight against the Fsinister Four (which was only half an hour ago per the host).
Current is a bit of a weird term for a character who hasn't appeared in over a decade but he is composite so this is a moot point. That's why I've brought up misting in every single encounter.
Even if he could turn into mist, he'd still need to react to the sneak attack somehow, and even if he did, BB can just turn back into an insect and the difference is that Backlash will have to solidify in 5 seconds while BB can stay like that indefinitely. Once Backlash solidifies he'll be under pressure from the minions and Cho again, while BB can wait for an opportune moment and try to sneak attack once more. BB is risking very little here.
Ok, except that's not really a solution you do realise? I'll humour you and say that Marc decides to stay and fight the spawn for some reason, and then BB attacks him and he mists. In that case, he'd just... leave. He has no reason to stay stationary when he can just fade away into the treeline with that five seconds and avoid fighting the bugs entirely. Again, he has a very easy solution that you've just kinda ignored. More importantly, what exactly do you expect to happen the next time? Intangibility has a 5 second cooldown. If Gar "surprise attacks" him less than 3 seconds after he's solidified then, I hate to break it to you but that's not exactly a surprise, and if he waits any longer than that then the exact same thing will just happen again. As presented, Gar has no noteworthy skill or intelligence or tactics, so if he tries the same thing over and over again all that will happen is that Marc will be ready for him and he'll just kill him with his Psi-Whips like I said he would in my opener. He doesn't need to move to use them, they're supersonic, have excellent mobility, can be created in numbers, and Gar has zero knowledge of them or their capabilities. Plus, Marc is faster than him. If he tries again he's just getting speared through the chest.
Yeah getting alerted by Gorgon is the only way Backlash could survive, but BB will only attack him after Gorgon is dealt with, per Cho's instructions.
Wait, really? If Gar isn't entering the fight until Tomi is gone then this is just a 1v2 for Cho. Well, can't wait to see how Supreme addresses that!
Amadeus
Problem with this counter: IEMP proofed all my gear rather early into the games.This includes supercomputer, mask, gauntlet. The WS arm can emit EMPs so it should stand to reason it too is EMP resistant. The same screenshot from PM correspondence with geek shows what I did with the magnet grenade too (I wasn't allowed to at the time due to time constraints in-game, but did so later).
I see. Fair enough then. But I mean...
The rust monster antennae is attached to the grenade, meaning that once Cho throws the grenade, it's shrapnel will immediately be sent flying towards nearby metal. This means that Backlash's MCU Cap shield will be rusted over and gone by the end of this encounter.
Marc is still just misting through both of these. Also, hold on, what? First off, since when is the rust antennae attached to a grenade? You didn't even mention the antennae at all in your first post and it's a little late to be adding new things to your prep. Secondly, I don't understand how this strategy works. If the antenna is simply attached to the grenade, then its exploding will just blow it up. Not a great idea. What I assume you meant is that the magnetic grenade will magnetise the antenna pieces towards nearby metal, which does make sense as a plan but not as a reasonable argument. Last I checked these antennae came from organic living beings, so there is absolutely no reason they would be magnetised with the grenade and carried alongside the shrapnel. For that matter, is the grenade not made of metal? Would the antenna not just rust the grenade whenever this was done and make it useless? Matter of fact, if by that post it rusts anything within 5 feet how were you even carrying this thing around with you? Is all your gear also rust-proof? I don't understand any of this and you clearly haven't bothered to explain.
Marc has never needed his eyes to track an opponent" is a rather bold statement when you consider that it's not one you proved in this post. Given we get no new post, proving it in the next gives us no chance to counter.
Ah, that's my mistake. I made the Imgur album and clearly just forgot to link it. For fairness' sake, I won't post it now but I'll clarify that what I meant by that is that there are several instances of Marc detecting people sneaking up on him without him needing to see them. Hence my assertion that simply being invisible to the eyes isn't enough.
Cho has no reason to assume guns in this scenario are like guns in the real world. Hell, one of the guns he'scurrently carryingis a flintlock from Oda Nobunaga, which packs way more firepower than a typical flintlock. Further, the "bullets" shot from the Lead Gun are clearly not like actual bullets, so assuming they are is pointless.
This really isn't a counter to anything. Cho having encountered one singular gun that's literally just a gun but more powerful does not in any way prepare him for or allow him to counter Marc's lead bullet gun, which functions in no way that he may expect. What you failed to address was my initial point, that this lack of information would be incredibly debilitating for Cho since, as he's been argued at least, he's reliant on Supermath even just to dodge bullets. If he can't effectively use Supermath on these bullets, which he can't, he's getting tagged. Simple as. And once he does it's game over because even if he could avoid Marc and Tomi's attacks before, he definitely can't after being significantly weighed down.
As was brought up by DedmanWalkin in the main thread, Backlash possesses no Trion. However, that's not the point for this point. The point for this point is that you yourself said someone "loads it with physical ammo" so to be quite frank after all these fights (two player ambushes + Fsinister Four + I'm probably forgetting more) you should be completely out of ammo.
Not really. One of those ambushes we won by DQ, so Marc and Tomi literally did nothing in-verse, and the other was a 2v1 against an opponent already on the verge of death and it was ruled that they just caught up with teleportation and killed him as he tried to run away. The only other encounters were running from a tornado and escaping the Fsinister Four, and Marc isn't running out of shots after one single fight. Even still;
Yeah. Once. The bullet doesn't shoot physical ammunition, it shoots Trion which Miwa has to load in physically, but it's still Miwa's trion. And in World Trigger gunners regularly spray and pray bullets for entire fights and almost never run out. Make no mistake, Miwa wouldn't load his entire trion reserves into his physical ammo, but the fact remains that the number of shots in a gun like this is deceptively high. He's not exactly limited to six rounds in a chamber.
Cho exposing himself is of no issue when thanks to Supermath, every single shot will be leading to an outcome of pain.
I'm all for taking a character's abilities to their logical extremes, as I'm sure anyone who reads my debates could tell you, but I'm not seeing it. For one, Cho logically isn't predicting a single thing about these bullets because they literally are not bullets and can change turn at 90-degree angles mid-fight, neither of which are things he knows. More importantly, though, I just don't see Cho getting away from our team in an extended confrontation. He's certainly impressive, don't get me wrong, but against two opponents both faster and with superior mobility, both with multiple abilities he has zero knowledge of, I just don't see how exactly he wins this, especially since per your teammate this is apparently a 2v1 until Tomi dies. As always, your answer is just "Supermath" and whilst it's an impressive ability it doesn't actually make counter-arguments. Marc could slip pasts his senses or if Tomi could speed in and gets the drop on him, the Spawn could notice him and start rushing toward him; there are a lot of things that technically I could see Cho getting out of individually, but as a whole combat scenario I don't see it. In individual moment-to-moment trades, I can absolutely see him coming out on top but I do not for a second believe that he's capable of carrying an entire fight with this many variables and taking out both opponents without making a single slip up (nor have you demonstrated as such), especially not when one of them is literally just impossible to hit unless Cho throws something unavoidable at him multiple times every five seconds.
Closing Thoughts
So. Cho is hiding, and presumably once detected then running, through a forest, whilst trying to make sure his invisibility cloak covers his entire body, making sure not to drop any of his 17 pieces of equipment, keeping abreast of the Del Lago spawn to make sure he doesn't get too close to them, all whilst apparently firing off a barrage of ranged attacks and equipment against Backlash and Gorgon and simultaneously defending himself from any and all of their attacks, without making a simple slip up or getting caught by anything and (apparently) without any assistance until one of them is already dead. Are you really sure about that? Because there's calculating dozens of projectiles and using that to defeat a singular opponent in a 1-on-1 with no other variables, and then there's, well, this.
Oh, and BB just gets killed when he tries to attack Marc, that goes without saying.
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I was generally persuaded that Gorgon would be able to use his TP to find Cho's mind, even if possibly he might not read it. Also that the invisibility cloak is not all that great at full cover.
I was also generally persuaded that Cho wouldn't be able to hack the teleporter in time. In my mind, this is partly over questions of realizing who Gorgon is, but also because he's moving so fast that he'd be hard to even see let alone recognize. I just don't know that he'd see him, have time to scan him and see what tech he has, think of the plan, and then hack it in time, if, again, he even had a chance before Tomi found him first.
I am no impact dial expert at all, but I don't get why it wouldn't work on the ground. But it's moot without teleportational control.
I was not persuaded that Beast Boy would necessarily be able to one-shot Backlash even if he had surprise. I was persuaded that Backlash could probably react to any hint that Beast Boy was attacking, either with his whips or misting. On the other hand I don't think they would be able to perceive Beast Boy in his insect form beforehand.
I agree that Cho's predictability skills wouldn't work on a gun that doesn't work like normal.
Anyway, my general feel was that Beast Boy and Cho's approach was very heavily based on them ambushing the other team, regardless of this being a confrontation, which I do get since they had prep. But if that ambush doesn't work, then BB/Cho's plans were less clear about what they'd do then. Whereas Gorgon/Backlash have a ton of advantages in speed, skill, and damage output. I don't think supermath will help due to the massive speed advantage.
So I think the enjoyable creative and unique Cho/Beast Boy team finally goes down. I will say Gorgon/Backlash will take minor damage and lose 1 piece of gear each due to rust monster grenades!
I think Supreme and co had the win here for a few reasons, namely because they had the advantage of prep, which even against such a massively stat-heavy duo such as the guys here would be momentous as a base to work off, which they exploited to full effect here. Supreme's args for Cho against the Gorgon TP I felt made sense, especially given the fact that he had instances against Xemnu, who is by far not a lightweight. Even if Gorgon could make out the general presence of someone, it wasn't going to be much by itself. I don't really see the whole "2 fast gg" argumentation given the two were hidden and unlikely to be found at once, meaning the two had time to process who was after them, which with Cho is more than enough to do what was mentioned.
The critical branch was the above encounter with Cho and co as it essentially dictates the rest of this fight due to a natural numbers advantage and the whole teleporter being hacked deal: gear was going to always play a big deal here regardless but it's especially important in that regard. Sure, the argument was made that Gorgon could survive the Impact Dial blasting off, but no real attempt was made to discourage the second part: namely the Del Lago spawn and whatnot. Such a massive gap in reasoning makes the implications of such a event happening more likely to be dangerous, especially given from a debating perspective.
The other issue was timing: how fast Gorgon would travel from one place to another. The facts are that while Gorgon was under some medium of danger, the idea that he'd be running at full pelt felt a bit flat all in all considering this wasn't exactly his attitude in earlier matches. Given how Supreme argued it, Cho should realistically know what Gorgon looks like way before being spotted, especially given the above negating the TP, which was the primary source of location. I feel as while the plan is naturally somewhat risky, the variables mentioned and the arguments presented tell me the teleporter being hacked can indeed happen way before being spotted, especially with no TP tracking (or at least not as effective, anyway)
The BoF showings were a little bit more dubious, given he didn't really know the character he was facing and was presupposing from a angle that I didn't really buy given what was on the table: BB could clear the distance while tiny, but to win the fight? Immensely out of reason in that regard. Beast Boy can distract him, sure, but beat? Unlikely. However, with Cho in the game this changes immensely given how much gear will be thrown at Backlash and how Supermath allows for the speed advantage to not necessary be negated, but worked around in such a respect. BoF's arguments were by far the weakest here, however, which means I definitely have to agree with the fact that BB will not come out of this without some good damage.
In the end, it's about that singular first encounter: Cho has the tools to handle it, albeit it's a close one.
I think Supreme and co had the win here for a few reasons, namely because they had the advantage of prep, which even against such a massively stat-heavy duo such as the guys here would be momentous as a base to work off, which they exploited to full effect here. Supreme's args for Cho against the Gorgon TP I felt made sense, especially given the fact that he had instances against Xemnu, who is by far not a lightweight. Even if Gorgon could make out the general presence of someone, it wasn't going to be much by itself. I don't really see the whole "2 fast gg" argumentation given the two were hidden and unlikely to be found at once, meaning the two had time to process who was after them, which with Cho is more than enough to do what was mentioned.
The critical branch was the above encounter with Cho and co as it essentially dictates the rest of this fight due to a natural numbers advantage and the whole teleporter being hacked deal: gear was going to always play a big deal here regardless but it's especially important in that regard. Sure, the argument was made that Gorgon could survive the Impact Dial blasting off, but no real attempt was made to discourage the second part: namely the Del Lago spawn and whatnot. Such a massive gap in reasoning makes the implications of such a event happening more likely to be dangerous, especially given from a debating perspective.
The other issue was timing: how fast Gorgon would travel from one place to another. The facts are that while Gorgon was under some medium of danger, the idea that he'd be running at full pelt felt a bit flat all in all considering this wasn't exactly his attitude in earlier matches. Given how Supreme argued it, Cho should realistically know what Gorgon looks like way before being spotted, especially given the above negating the TP, which was the primary source of location. I feel as while the plan is naturally somewhat risky, the variables mentioned and the arguments presented tell me the teleporter being hacked can indeed happen way before being spotted, especially with no TP tracking (or at least not as effective, anyway)
The BoF showings were a little bit more dubious, given he didn't really know the character he was facing and was presupposing from a angle that I didn't really buy given what was on the table: BB could clear the distance while tiny, but to win the fight? Immensely out of reason in that regard. Beast Boy can distract him, sure, but beat? Unlikely. However, with Cho in the game this changes immensely given how much gear will be thrown at Backlash and how Supermath allows for the speed advantage to not necessary be negated, but worked around in such a respect. BoF's arguments were by far the weakest here, however, which means I definitely have to agree with the fact that BB will not come out of this without some good damage.
In the end, it's about that singular first encounter: Cho has the tools to handle it, albeit it's a close one.
Gorgon/Backlash team die
Beast Boy takes 2/3 levels of damage.
Pretty much agree with this, but to elaborate a bit more:
I felt as though Supreme and BoF had Mr_Ingenuity and Maestro on the defensive for the entire debate. While the former made excellent use of their prep and presented overall better arguments, the latter relied too heavily on speed and telepathy.
I was convinced that even if Gorgon could sense Cho/BB in time via telepathy, he wouldn't be able to discern their exact locations or do much before he gets hacked/attacked.
I was also convinced that Cho/BB would be able to deduce that Gorgon is in the suit.
Speed was a factor that was in favour of Gorgon/Backlash, but not to a significant degree.
Cho/Supreme is definitely the MVP of their alliance for this fight, which is why I also believe that BB would suffer some damage.
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