Andrew has the Invisibility Cloak, and Beast Boy ambushes him at the Tilted Towers.
Ambush: one alliance or contestant ambushes another. Ambush team has to make the first post, but they get the stealth advantage. Victim has to argue whether they can survive the ambush or not, or if the stealth can even be pulled off. No one has to die.
Whathappened can either fight back or try to argue an escape. BladeofFury will post first.
Victory by death or escape.
2 posts each. 7 days to post.
Since this is a 1v1 battle, only the three Gamemasters will vote. Threats and larger battles will involve non-participants voting as well.
Battlefield
Contestants start on opposite corners of the roof of the blue/brick house.
@whathappened: I'll begin by reminding everyone that your character is a regular human whose only power is TK. Andrew has no speed or durability to speak of, which is why he couldn't react to a punch from his regular human dad and why said punch messed him up. He needs to actively maintain a telekinetic forcefield around his body to defend himself, and has a track record of dying to surprise attacks.
So, as you might expect, Beast Boy sneaking up as an insect and then lashing out as a gorilla won't bode well for the scrawny teenager. Let's see how you intend to deal with this...
My character is not asleep, and after the scuffle with Beast Boy he will obviously be warry of ANY animals so he's high into the sky where he can look at the whole scene and zap anyone below with lightning bolts
There was no scuffle, because Andrew "had no basis for targeting Beast Boy out of the other 28 people there." - the host. Beast Boy left the cornucopia without an item and without a fight, which is why neither him nor Andrew have sustained any injuries. So Andrew has no reason to suspect that random insects are out to get him, and zapping every living creature that he sees will only alert the real contestants at Tilted Towers.
Andrew's telekinesis is like a muscle - it will tear if he overexerts himself. Back when he was starting out, for example, he got nosebleeds from holding a baseball up for longer than a few seconds. Of course he has become much more powerful since then, but at no point did he demonstrate the stamina to hold himself up with TK for 2 days straight. You might mention how Matt flew from the US to Tibet, but it happened off-screen so who knows how many breaks he had to take.
Andrew can't control lightning. The one time he ever used it was unintentionally, during a pre-existing storm, he was throwing a tantrum and accidentally killed his best friend. He later admitted: "I don't know what I did... I lost control and I'm so sorry..." As you know, lightning was never to be seen in the movie again.
In general, staying high in the sky is a pretty bad idea for Andrew. Again, his only power is TK and he can't use it directly on opponents per tourney rules, so his best way of dealing damage is to throw stuff with it. In the sky, however, there's nothing to throw. Considering Andrew has seen a whole bunch of contestants flying at the cornucopia, he will most likely stay closer to the ground, where he's better equipped for combat.
Anyway, Andrew won't be a problem for Beast Boy wherever he is. If he's in the sky like you said, he is way too far to see BB's insect form in the dark. BB can just fly up even higher while keeping distance and attack from above. If Andrew's on the rooftop like the OP says, the same can be done, except the buildings will also provide additional cover, making it especially easy for BB to stay out of sight. Furthermore, some insects are ridiculously small, such as fairyflies which are only a fraction of a millimeter. So BB can literally fly right up to Andrew's face from the front, and Andrew still won't see anything. And, of course, Andrew won't be on the lookout for insects in the first place, so even if he somehow sees BB, he won't know that he has to act immediately.
Just in case Andrew magically deals with the initial ambush, refer to this to see how badly Beast Boy would embarrass him in a direct confrontation. I've posted a bunch of BB's feats there.
Last thing I need to cover is how Beast Boy will know where Andrew is, despite the invisibility cloak. A number of animals and insects could be useful here:
Bat: Infamous for being able to echolocate. It can emit high frequency sound that is inaudible to humans, and then listen to the echo to "determine the size, shape, and texture of objects in its environment. Bat echolocation is so sophisticated that these animals can detect an object the width of a human hair."
Polar bear: Its sense of smell is one of the best in the animal kingdom, enabling it to smell a seal on the ice from 20 miles away. Of course turning into something as large as a bear in the open would be a bad idea, but Beast Boy can go into empty buildings and sniff around from there. In fact, considering Andrew's out in the open and hasn't showered in days, BB would've been able to smell him all the way from Shifty Shafts.
With all these animals at Beast Boy's disposal and more, the invisibility cloak isn't helping Andrew. His breathing will be heard, his scent will be sniffed out, he'll get sneaked up on and one-shotted before he even realizes @whathappened.
@whathappened: We only have 2 posts so you should probably bring out all the arguments and evidence you plan to use in this one. You can edit it if you want, let me know.
@geekryan: Roughly what is the temperature at Tilted Towers (ground level)? What are the contestants wearing (if street clothes, which ones)? Was there a fight between BB and Andrew at the cornucopia, or did BB turn into an insect and escape before Andrew engaged him?
@geekryan: Roughly what is the temperature at Tilted Towers (ground level)? What are the contestants wearing (if street clothes, which ones)? Was there a fight between BB and Andrew at the cornucopia, or did BB turn into an insect and escape before Andrew engaged him?
That is such a specific question lol. Ummm let's say it's 15 Celsius/59 Fahrenheit.
As for clothes, it's just a matching set of black cargo pants, black long-sleeve shirt, and black combat boots.
There was no actual fight. Andrew did try to engage BB but he escaped.
I'll begin by reminding everyone that your character is a regular human whose only power is TK. Andrew has no speed or durability to speak of, which is why he couldn't react to a punch from his regular human dad and why said punch messed him up. He needs to actively maintain a telekinetic forcefield around his body to defend himself, and has a track record of dying to surprise attacks.
Ok a few things here. First, Andrew is already at high alert of ALL animals after the scuffle at the cornucopia, so he will have his powers "activated" in any case. Andrew wasn't brave enough to finally strike back at his own father at the time, that's literally his dad, and the "surprise attack" was from his own telekinetic equal. The force of the spear sent it deep into the concrete ground, that's way beyond any bullet let alone a punch from Beast Boy. Your post belies a lack of understanding how his powers work. When they first got their powers, they relied on line-on-line to use their telekinesis. But it's not a line of sight based power. That type of thinking will limit what you’re able to do with your abilities. The same way they imagine a barrier around them to become nigh invulnerable. The power works around your thoughts. As long as he knows the car or even the molars in someone's mouth is there in his mind's eye, he can manipulate it.
You seem to not have seen the movie, but I'll give the voters a breakdown of Andrew's stats.
In this movie, 3 kids all have the exact same power and scale to each other, Andrew simply trained more and thus slightly more powerful. These are characters that can throw each other through buildings and solid concrete/cement like it was made of cardboard: https://gfycat.com/idolizedsickgoldenretriever
See and react to an airplane in close range flying at around 460-575 mph, and one kid even got hit by it while he wasn't aware (his back was turned) which means the barrier is generally always on when they are using their powers: https://gfycat.com/disastrousclosedintermediateegret
So physicals aren't an issue here. All that truly matters is whether or not your ambush will work. I have already said that my character is high in the air, but if the OP is teleporting my character to wherever s/he wants then things might be different. But let's assume that I am still in control of Andrew, and he is in the sky like when he was playing football with his friends. This is a height where commercial airplanes fly at, 9000-13000 meters above the ground.
The two highest-flying bird species on record are the endangered Ruppell's griffon vulture, which has been spotted flying at 37,000 feet (the same height as a coasting commercial airplane), and the bar-headed goose, which has been seen flying over the Himalayas at heights of nearly 28,000 feet. On the other hand, certain flies and butterflies have been seen flying at 6,000 meters (19,685 feet). This is because it takes more energy to create lift with insect wings at high altitudes, and such height has reduced oxygen. On top of that, insects are unable to regulate their body temperatures independent of their surroundings, so the cold temperatures at high altitudes could shut them down and prevent them from moving through large parts of the day and night: https://bugunderglass.com/how-high-can-insects-fly/
So you have a few options. Turn into a big obvious vulture, or instantly die turning into a bug. Either way, the "ambush" is not gonna work.
Edit:
There was no scuffle, because Andrew "had no basis for targeting Beast Boy out of the other 28 people there." - the host. Beast Boy left the cornucopia without an item and without a fight, which is why neither him nor Andrew have sustained any injuries. So Andrew has no reason to suspect that random insects are out to get him, and zapping every living creature that he sees will only alert the real contestants at Tilted Towers.
That only meant there was no "actual battle", but that doesn't rule out a scuffle. Our characters still fought, but the GMs didn't allow it to be an actual battle narratively speaking, which is why you are still alive. Because a real "battle" means death
He literally says you escaped with your life. Let's move on.
Andrew's telekinesis is like a muscle - it will tear if he overexerts himself. Back when he was starting out, for example, he got nosebleeds from holding a baseball up for longer than a few seconds. Of course he has become much more powerful since then, but at no point did he demonstrate the stamina to hold himself up with TK for 2 days straight. You might mention how Matt flew from the US to Tibet, but it happened off-screen so who knows how many breaks he had to take.
His human body doesn't weigh anywhere near as much as a car, let alone the buses he flings around. It's a muscle, but no one gets tired of carrying a jacket all day. That's the comparative weight of his body to a 20 ton bus, a literal jacket. You're grasping at straws here, remaining in the air have never been an issue, they literally played football in the sky.
Andrew can't control lightning. The one time he ever used it was unintentionally, during a pre-existing storm, he was throwing a tantrum and accidentally killed his best friend. He later admitted: "I don't know what I did... I lost control and I'm so sorry..." As you know, lightning was never to be seen in the movie again.
He still did it though, it's his fault. He killed Steve with a lightning bolt, and just because he regrets that he went psycho without holding back doesn't take away from the fact that he did it with his own power. This is the same guy who, in a deleted scene, used TK to shape a cloud into a middle finger, they clearly control the weather. But let's use your logic, we don't know how many other times Andrew used lightning before, so he could have used it countless times 😉
In general, staying high in the sky is a pretty bad idea for Andrew. Again, his only power is TK and he can't use it directly on opponents per tourney rules, so his best way of dealing damage is to throw stuff with it. In the sky, however, there's nothing to throw. Considering Andrew has seen a whole bunch of contestants flying at the cornucopia, he will most likely stay closer to the ground, where he's better equipped for combat.
The kids in the movie Chronicle love flying, it was a momentous moment in the movie when they learned the ability, and even in fights they are in the air 80% of the time, even in the sky, so the evidence is clear. Andrew prefers fighting while flying. And let's be honest, he can still use his physical might which can destroy small buildings so let's not act like Andrew is helpless against Beast Boy. Last time I checked, Gorillas can't fly, and they fall pretty fast. But nothing stops Andrew from carrying a bunch of sharp pebbles in his jacket pocket to shoot precisely at his opponents' eyeballs with incredible force.
Anyway, Andrew won't be a problem for Beast Boy wherever he is. If he's in the sky like you said, he is way too far to see BB's insect form in the dark. BB can just fly up even higher while keeping distance and attack from above. If Andrew's on the rooftop like the OP says, the same can be done, except the buildings will also provide additional cover, making it especially easy for BB to stay out of sight. Furthermore, some insects are ridiculously small, such asfairyflieswhich are only a fraction of amillimeter.So BB can literally fly right up to Andrew's face from the front, and Andrew still won't see anything. And, of course, Andrew won't be on the lookout for insects in the first place, so even if he somehow sees BB, he won't know that he has to act immediately.
Turning into an insect is an auto win for me, that has been established.
With all these animals at Beast Boy's disposal and more, the invisibility cloak isn't helping Andrew. His breathing will be heard, his scent will be sniffed out, he'll get sneaked up on and one-shotted before he even realizes@whathappened.
Animals have incredible senses, far beyond humans, and I'm not disputing that. But these creatures have limits, and you are trying to go against nature by putting a bug in the sky where it can't even survive for even a second. My character is an apex predator, your character isn't.
@whathappened: You initially wanted Andrew to go in the sky so he can "look at the whole scene and zap anyone below," but I see the plan changed to "hide from Beast Boy" now since you're arguing he'll be 11 kilometers high, from where he obviously won't see anyone. Oh well.
On the other hand, certain flies and butterflies have been seen flying at 6,000 meters (19,685 feet). This is because it takes more energy to create lift with insect wings at high altitudes, and such height has reduced oxygen. On top of that, insects are unable to regulate their body temperatures independent of their surroundings, so the cold temperatures at high altitudes could shut them down and prevent them from moving through large parts of the day and night
Right, but Andrew can't go that high for the exact same reasons.
As for the cold, the ground temperature is 15°C and it decreases at an average of 6.5°C per kilometer, which makes it -56°C at an altitude of 11 km. For reference, at -34°C, a healthy person could get hypothermia in as little as 10 minutes. As the body cools further, heart muscles start seizing up and blood stops spreading oxygen efficiently, which works in tandem with the fact that there's insufficient oxygen at such altitude to begin with. At -28°C, "I'd be amazed if anyone survived as long as a day," says physiologist Bill Keatinge. Yet here you are claiming that Andrew will spend days somewhere twice as cold, at an altitude twice as high as where he'd pass out.
When Andrew and his friends were in the sky, they had full winter gear (jackets, hats, gloves, etc.) and still noted "it's freezing up here." Now, Andrew has nothing but a shirt to shield himself against the bitter cold. They were also nowhere near 11 km back then, which there are multiple indicators of:
After several seconds of the camera freefalling at 4:06 you can start to make out individual trees on the ground (despite the poor quality), something that obviously wouldn't be possible from 11 km or anywhere close.
It took them well under a minute to fall to the ground (there were no cuts). If they were anywhere near 11 km, it would've taken well over 3.
As such, we must assume that the airplane we saw hasn't yet reached peak height (it does seem like it's gaining altitude). Andrew was well within Beast Boy's range, even in insect form, and going too high for BB to follow would result in him suffocating and freezing to death. There goes your main plan.
Other
That only meant there was no "actual battle", but that doesn't rule out a scuffle. Our characters still fought, but the GMs didn't allow it to be an actual battle narratively speaking, which is why you are still alive. Because a real "battle" means death
The host said: "There was no actual fight. Andrew did try to engage BB but he escaped." The key word here is "try." Andrew tried to engage BB but didn't actually do it, presumably because BB turned into a bug and flew away. As I said on the previous thread, the starting distance at the cornucopia will be far too large to see an insect, so to Andrew it'll seem like BB vanished. He wouldn't know whether BB can turn invisible, teleport, move at FTE speeds, or many other things that don't involve turning into insects.
Though you haven't disputed BB's ability to sneak up on Andrew without being seen at all, so this argument is extra.
Andrew wasn't brave enough to finally strike back at his own father at the time, that's literally his dad
But he did. He struck back at his father seconds later, slamming him against the wall with TK and rag-dolling him across the room. You probably confused it with this scene because you haven't watched the movie in a while, but regardless, you don't have to be willing to strike back to dodge a punch, or shield yourself with a TK forcefield. The fact that Andrew couldn't initially defend himself suggests that he has normal human speed. This is something we already knew, as there's a whole scene of his friends getting hit by baseballs to the face (they were trying to stop the ball with TK but weren't fast enough to avoid getting hit after it was clear they failed).
the "surprise attack" was from his own telekinetic equal. The force of the spear sent it deep into the concrete ground, that's way beyond any bullet let alone a punch from Beast Boy.
As you said, Andrew was slightly superior, so we if he had his forcefield up we'd expect the spear to encounter some kind of resistance instead of passing through so easily. To me, it also looks like the spear barely pierced the concrete at all, but I won't hold that against him.
Your post belies a lack of understanding how his powers work. When they first got their powers, they relied on line-on-line to use their telekinesis. But it's not a line of sight based power. That type of thinking will limit what you’re able to do with your abilities. The same way they imagine a barrier around them to become nigh invulnerable. The power works around your thoughts. As long as he knows the car or even the molars in someone's mouth is there in his mind's eye, he can manipulate it.
I'm not sure what part of my post this addresses, because my whole point is that Andrew will not know that BB is there.
Perhaps this could be useful if BB's initial ambush somehow fails and he tries to disappear from sight by turning into a small insect, but even then, Andrew wouldn't know exactly where the insect would be, while he did know exactly where the car and the molars were.
Can fling buses like they're children toys, and withstand each others attacks:
I've already shown BB rocking a giant monster who no-sold everything Raven threw at him. As I said in the previous thread (which is linked in my first post), Raven is a much more powerful telekinetic than Andrew, being able to fling buses as well, and move 50+ ton masses of stone and water. Andrew's TK is capped at 25 tons and the strength of his forcefield comes from his TK, so BB should be able to one-shot him even if the forcefield was up (striking is capped all the way at small building level).
See and react to an airplane in close range flying at around 460-575 mph, and one kid even got hit by it while he wasn't aware (his back was turned) which means the barrier is generally always on when they are using their powers:https://gfycat.com/disastrousclosedintermediateegret
Fly at supersonic speed from Seattle to Tibet:
Steve clearly didn't get hit directly, instead getting spun like his friends from the plane passing so close. Surviving a direct hit from a 100-ton jet at 500 mph with no visible injuries would obviously be over the limits for Andrew, let alone the much weaker Steve. I'm also not sure what you think they reacted to, because all I see is the plane flying past and rag-dolling them before they even have time to scream. For some real speed feats, look to our previous thread which I've linked in my first post. You will find BB transforming and flying Cyborg away before a sound wave covers a few meters.
I should also note that Matt flies to Tibet after the events of the movie are over, and we don't know how much time passed (we know that Matt fled from the cops immediately, but not how long it was before his trip to Tibet - days, weeks, months, etc). Considering how much stronger he gets with time and the fact that such travel speed is unprecedented in the movie, scaling Andrew from this feat is rather dubious.
His human body doesn't weigh anywhere near as much as a car, let alone the buses he flings around. It's a muscle, but no one gets tired of carrying a jacket all day. That's the comparative weight of his body to a 20 ton bus, a literal jacket.
You would most certainly get tired of holding up a jacket all day, lol, or even just your arms for that matter. Try outstretching your arms in front of you and hold them - you'll start to feel the burn a lot sooner than you might expect. That said, you're asking a lot more of Andrew than this. In addition to holding himself up with TK, you want Andrew to maintain a forcefield for 2 days straight that is powerful enough to stop Beast Boy. Obviously, Andrew won't be able to use anywhere near his full TK strength for such a long period of time, and considering the Hunger Games can be expected to continue for weeks or even months, Andrew would have to make the forcefield even weaker if he wants to maintain it consistently throughout the duration of the Games.
He still did it though, it's his fault. He killed Steve with a lightning bolt, and just because he regrets that he went psycho without holding back doesn't take away from the fact that he did it with his own power. This is the same guy who, in a deleted scene, used TK to shape a cloud into a middle finger, they clearly control the weather. But let's use your logic, we don't know how many other times Andrew used lightning before, so he could have used it countless times 😉
Andrew did it, but clearly he doesn't know how, hence "I don't know what I did." There being a pre-existing thunderstorm is also an important detail, as a common interpretation of the feat is that Andrew accidentally redirected lightning with TK instead of outright creating it, just like, in the deleted scene you speak of, he reshaped an existing cloud with TK instead of outright creating one. This would explain why lightning was nowhere to be seen in any subsequent fights.
Either way, it's pretty clear this isn't something he can use reliably.
The kids in the movie Chronicle love flying, it was a momentous moment in the movie when they learned the ability, and even in fights they are in the air 80% of the time, even in the sky, so the evidence is clear. Andrew prefers fighting while flying. And let's be honest, he can still use his physical might which can destroy small buildings so let's not act like Andrew is helpless against Beast Boy. Last time I checked, Gorillas can't fly, and they fall pretty fast. But nothing stops Andrew from carrying a bunch of sharp pebbles in his jacket pocket to shoot precisely at his opponents' eyeballs with incredible force.
I was about to object, but if you insist on nerfing your own character I won't stop you. Of course Andrew won't be as high as you argued, due to the suffocation and the, y'know, freezing to death, but a couple kilometers above ground sounds good to me.
My character is an apex predator, your character isn't.
Ah yes, your character is such an apex predator that you feel the need to hide him 10+ kilometers in the sky in an effort to stay away from my character. Absolute 🐐 he is.
Conclusion
If XLR8 is right and Andrew will stay 9-13 km above ground, pulling off a stealthy ambush would be impossible so Beast Boy won't follow him. The two would go their separate ways and the Games will take even longer. Luckily, however, Andrew will not be able to stay at that altitude due to the lack of oxygen and freezing temperatures, which would make him daydream of the times when his biggest health concerns were nosebleeds. Since XLR8 insists on Andrew being in the sky due to his love for flying or whatnot, the compromise would be a couple kilometers high, where he'll be safe from the harsh weather conditions above.
But then he won't be safe from Beast Boy. BB's ability to track Andrew down was not disputed, and neither was his ability to sneak up on Andrew as an insect (no new arguments in the final post etc). As such, the only thing standing between Beast Boy and an easy one-shot victory is the TK forcefield. Unfortunately for Andrew, he's been actively trying to maintain this forcefield for 2 days straight already, and plans to continue doing so for weeks to come (in addition to holding himself in the sky with TK), so it won't be anywhere near full strength (if he can keep it up at all). And frankly, even Andrew's full strength forcefields pale in comparison to what Beast Boy can dish out.
The fight will be over then and there, but in the miraculous scenario that Andrew withstands the initial ambush, he'll find himself face to face with a vastly more experienced and versatile fighter who can move at supersonic speeds and disappear in the blink of an eye. Because Andrew is kilometers in the sky, objects on the ground are too far to use TK on (such range was not established), so the only options of attack that XLR8 mentioned were trying to ram into BB physically, and "carrying a bunch of sharp pebbles in his jacket pocket to shoot precisely at his opponents' eyeballs with incredible force." However no evidence was provided that Andrew can shoot these pebbles fast enough to tag BB, or that he can even track someone as fast as BB. And, of course, BB can turn into a small insect and disappear in the night sky any time he chooses, so this encounter can only go wrong for one person. Poor Andrew.
You initially wanted Andrew to go in the sky so he can "look at the whole scene and zap anyone below," but I see the plan changed to "hide from Beast Boy" now since you're arguing he'll be 11 kilometers high, from where he obviously won't see anyone. Oh well.
What can I say? You decided to ambush me
Right, but Andrew can't go that high for the exact same reasons.
"Most of us will go unconscious above 15,000 to 20,000 feet," which is why the altitude threshold for skydiving without oxygen is 14,000'. That's a range of 4.6 to 6.1 kilometers where Andrew can be expected to pass out. Altitude sickness, however, sets in at even lower altitudes of 2.5 to 3.5 km. Symptoms begin 12-24 hours after arriving at the high altitude, and include fatigue, nausea, dizziness, headaches, confusion, and loss of coordination... not ideal for a combat situation.
As for the cold, the ground temperature is 15°C and it decreases at an average of 6.5°C per kilometer, which makes it -56°C at an altitude of 11 km. For reference, at -34°C, a healthy person could get hypothermia in as little as 10 minutes. As the body cools further, heart muscles start seizing up and blood stops spreading oxygen efficiently, which works in tandem with the fact that there's insufficient oxygen at such altitude to begin with. At -28°C, "I'd be amazed if anyone survived as long as a day," says physiologist Bill Keatinge. Yet here you are claiming that Andrew will spend days somewhere twice as cold, at an altitude twice as high as where he'd pass out.
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I never said days. He had a scuffle with Beast Boy, so he will be in the sky until he feels everything is safe. I think you are underplaying the superhuman aspects of the characters. They said it's freezing, and yet they played football up to the height where airplanes fly, just for fun. "Freezing" to them is obviously a different standard than a normal person.
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When Andrew and his friends were in the sky, they had full winter gear (jackets, hats, gloves, etc.) and still noted "it's freezing up here." Now, Andrew has nothing but a shirt to shield himself against the bitter cold. They were also nowhere near 11 km back then, which there are multiple indicators of:
After several seconds of the camera freefalling at 4:06 you can start to make out individual trees on the ground (despite the poor quality), something that obviously wouldn't be possible from 11 km or anywhere close.
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I can't see any "individual trees" in that picture and I've just seen the movie. Are you getting that desperate that you resorting to making things up? Lol
You can see rivers and farmland and forests, like looking at a map. But if you go skydiving at 14000 ft, you see the exact same thing: https://youtu.be/yeeIB47sICg
Skip to 4:15, they get out of the plane, and even before they jump out you can see the make-up of the ground just like in the Chronicle scene.
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The only high clouds (cirrus, cirrostratus, cirrocumulus) look nothing like the ones Andrew and his friends were flying amongst. These look like typical cumulus or altocumulus clouds, the former maxing out at 2 km, and the latter ranging from 2 to 6.
It took them well under a minute to fall to the ground (there were no cuts). If they were anywhere near 11 km, it would've taken well over 3.
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Artistic inaccuracies. The cgi artists drew a cloud, they aren't nephologists.
The movie was on a tight schedule (hence all the deleted scenes which you can see on the dvd and YouTube clips). It would take longer if the characters were allowed to keep falling for the whole 60 or so seconds, so they skipped parts.
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As such, we must assume that the airplane we saw hasn't yet reached peak height (it does seem like it's gaining altitude). Andrew was well within Beast Boy's range, even in insect form, and going too high for BB to follow would result in him suffocating and freezing to death. There goes your main plan.
There's no proof of any nearby airlines in the movie, or any in your post, so I'll have to assume that you're making this one up as well.
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The host said: "There was no actual fight. Andrew did try to engage BB but he escaped." The key word here is "try." Andrew tried to engage BB but didn't actually do it, presumably because BB turned into a bug and flew away. As I said on the previous thread, the starting distance at the cornucopia will be far too large to see an insect, so to Andrew it'll seem like BB vanished. He wouldn't know whether BB can turn invisible, teleport, move at FTE speeds, or many other things that don't involve turning into insects.
Though you haven't disputed BB's ability to sneak up on Andrew without being seen at all, so this argument is extra.
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The mere fact that a character can "turn into an insect and escape" from Andrew's attack is all the more reason to be cautious. You never know if a mosquito is actually a person trying to kill you.
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But he did. He struck back at his father seconds later, slamming him against the wall with TK and rag-dolling him across the room. You probably confused it with this scene because you haven't watched the movie in a while, but regardless, you don't have to be willing to strike back to dodge a punch, or shield yourself with a TK forcefield. The fact that Andrew couldn't initially defend himself suggests that he has normal human speed. This is something we already knew, as there's a whole scene of his friends getting hit by baseballs to the face (they were trying to stop the ball with TK but weren't fast enough to avoid getting hit after it was clear they failed).
He was hesitant to actually fight back, but he finally did. You are the one saying that he couldn't react to his father's punch even though he wasn't even using his powers until seconds later when he had enough and overpowered him. He had to activate his abilities, and even then he had to overcome the psychological factor of actually hitting his own dad. I think you are the one who didn't see the movie tbh, and the baseball scene? That was the scene in the beginning of the movie when they learned they even had TK.
You're grasping at straws, again.
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As you said, Andrew was slightly superior, so we if he had his forcefield up we'd expect the spear to encounter some kind of resistance instead of passing through so easily. To me, it also looks like the spear barely pierced the concrete at all, but I won't hold that against him.
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Andrew was facing his peer, not a weakling like Beast Boy. The spear went through his defenses by brute force.
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I'm not sure what part of my post this addresses, because my whole point is that Andrew will not know that BB is there.
Perhaps this could be useful if BB's initial ambush somehow fails and he tries to disappear from sight by turning into a small insect, but even then, Andrew wouldn't know exactly where the insect would be, while he did know exactly where the car and the molars were.
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And my whole point was that he would see BB because you'd need to turn into a big bird to reach the height where airplanes fly at.
No one can SEE someone's molars in a closed mouth from a distance, let alone target the exact teeth instead of accidentally removing the uvula or the cheek. If he wanted to, and if he was allowed to, he could rip a person's internal organs out. He doesn't need to use his eyes, he just needs to know you're there.
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I've already shown BB rocking a giant monster who no-sold everything Raven threw at him. As I said in the previous thread (which is linked in my first post), Raven is a much more powerful telekinetic than Andrew, being able to fling buses as well, and move 50+ ton masses of stone and water. Andrew's TK is capped at 25 tons and the strength of his forcefield comes from his TK, so BB should be able to one-shot him even if the forcefield was up (striking is capped all the way at small building level).
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You're contradicting yourself here. If Andrew's TK is capped at 25 tons, then what's the point of 50+ton Raven? Are you saying that Beast Boy can hit harder than someone blatantly stronger than the limits of this debate? I think you need to understand that characters like Miles Morales were banned simply for being vaguely scaled to 616 Peter Parker, and he's just a kid who at max lifted a truck. Beast Boy isn't oneshotting anything lol, if anything he gets disqualified for being argued above the limits of the HG. And without the ridiculous scaling, he doesn't have anywhere near enough strength to take out Andrew who I've shown actually does destroy "small buildings" with his physical might.
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Steve clearly didn't get hit directly, instead getting spun like his friends from the plane passing so close. Surviving a direct hit from a 100-ton jet at 500 mph with no visible injuries would obviously be over the limits for Andrew, let alone the much weaker Steve. I'm also not sure what you think they reacted to, because all I see is the plane flying past and rag-dolling them before they even have time to scream. For some real speed feats, look to our previous thread which I've linked in my first post. You will find BB transforming and flying Cyborg away before a sound wave covers a few meters.
I should also note that Matt flies to Tibet after the events of the movie are over, and we don't know how much time passed (we know that Matt fled from the cops immediately, but not how long it was before his trip to Tibet - days, weeks, months, etc). Considering how much stronger he gets with time and the fact that such travel speed is unprecedented in the movie, scaling Andrew from this feat is rather dubious.
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You can't tell the difference in height from just looking at it, you'd only know when a object passes over or under it. And the fact remains that Steve actually got hit by the wing, as shown in the video when you slow down the playback speed and pause.
And no, getting hit by a wing at 500 mph is not equal to getting hit by the full mass of the airplane, but still an indicator of vastly superhuman durability. Even Cyborg, who has zero speedfeats whatsoever, could visually see those slow as molasses "sound waves", let's be real Beast Boy is not that fast.
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You would most certainly get tired of holding up a jacket all day, lol, or even just your arms for that matter. Try outstretching your arms in front of you and hold them - you'll start to feel the burn a lot sooner than you might expect. That said, you're asking a lot more of Andrew than this. In addition to holding himself up with TK, you want Andrew to maintain a forcefield for 2 days straight that is powerful enough to stop Beast Boy. Obviously, Andrew won't be able to use anywhere near his full TK strength for such a long period of time, and considering the Hunger Games can be expected to continue for weeks or even months, Andrew would have to make the forcefield even weaker if he wants to maintain it consistently throughout the duration of the Games.
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It's just a jacket. I can't hold my arms up for 10 minutes, but I wore a jacket all day at work and never got that tired. Two different actions. One takes little effort because you're resting it on your shoulders and other muscles, the other directly goes contrary to blood flow (our life force) and constantly "re-picking up" your one arm to remain in place which takes even more blood and energy. TK is just your mind, a far bigger "muscle" than any part of your body, you don't use anywhere near as much energy due to the lack of blood/oxygen, so it's more comparable to wearing a jacket than lifting an arm.
Finally, I already proved that, once their powers are activated, the passive forcefield is already "on". Otherwise Steve would be red mush from hitting that airplane while unaware. You can even say that airplane "ambushed" him, and it still didn't kill him.
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Andrew did it, but clearly he doesn't know how, hence "I don't know what I did." There being a pre-existing thunderstorm is also an important detail, as a common interpretation of the feat is that Andrew accidentally redirected lightning with TK instead of outright creating it, just like, in the deleted scene you speak of, he reshaped an existing cloud with TK instead of outright creating one. This would explain why lightning was nowhere to be seen in any subsequent fights.
Either way, it's pretty clear this isn't something he can use reliably.
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He lied, he just murdered his best friend, his only friend, and in fact there wasn't a preexisting thunderstorm: https://youtu.be/SoudZuloeR4
"How do you get hit by lightning from a storm with no recorded lightning strikes?"
But tbh you actually made a good argument here, so I'll concede on this point. Congratulations.
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I was about to object, but if you insist on nerfing your own character I won't stop you. Of course Andrew won't be as high as you argued, due to the suffocation and the, y'know, freezing to death, but a couple kilometers above ground sounds good to me.
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The character can survive that high as shown in the movie. You have yet to show that you can even win in a physical confrontation against Andrew, even in the sky, without relying on crazy above-limits scaling. Shoo fly
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My conclusion:
Everyone's strength and physicals are capped at 25 tons or "small building level". Beast boy needs to fly to Andrew's location and then turn into a large heavy non-flying animal in order to have the strength feats to do anything, which means he needs to grab Andrew in order to remain in the air and continue the fight. And since I've already proven that the TK autoshields around his body as long as the powers are activated, an ambush isn't a guaranteed win let alone a likely one. Andrew can easily just punch him off of him, and he'd have to turn to a weaker creature to prevent himself from falling too far away. But the biggest thing is the fact that BoF had to stoop so low just to win a single debate. Did you see how many times I had to post the entire scene of certain feats just because BoF takes things out of context? And he even uses feats and scaling that are above the HG limits, that's how desperate he is for a win. That's bad debating to me, but you decide!
Voting can only be done by non-participants and the Gamemasters themselves. In order to avoid having alts voting, each voter is required to have at least 500 posts on CV. Gamemasters have the final say on whether a vote is allowed or not. Each vote must be explained to some degree, and votes based on obvious bias (personal or character) will not be counted.
Vote for who dies and if the victor lives with no damage or some damage (minor, moderate, severe). Normally, an ambush does not need to result in a death, but since both participants are arguing this battle as to the death and escape wasn't really discussed, one of them will die.
Voting will be open for 2 days and end on Friday. The Gamemasters will deliberate and post the results afterwards, assigning damage based on the number of votes that each character has received and the average level of damage that was assigned to them from each vote.
My vote goes to WH to die (if I understand voting rules correctly.) I felt that WH was very dismissive throughout my reading; for example, saying "Even Cyborg, who has zero speedfeats whatsoever" to counter Beast Boy reacting to a sonic wave. BoF did better in proving to me that Beast Boy is ultimately going to end up in better shape regardless of what happens, while WH didn't exactly cement any sort of relevant advantage I could tell for Andrew over Beast Boy. I also didn't see anything convincing about Beast Boy getting tagged and his only real enemy would be the environment itself. For that, I vote for Beast Boy to have minor damage.
First off, this entire ordeal was quite messy and complicated, which didn't make things as interesting to read. There was a lot of contention about the circumstances, which could have been cleared up.
Now for the actual fight. Although BoF's posts were short, they were effective enough to make me believe that Beast Boy would win this fight. He has the senses to locate Andrew, superior speed, better strength/durability, and the versatility to change into several animals in order to deal with the situation at hand. BoF was convincing about how Andrew could not realistically maintain his TK this entire time, and be fine enough to fight off Beast Boy in the sky. BoF also convinced me that Andrew could not maintain flight so high up in the air for an extended period of time, especially when he does not have the gear he had in the film in order to fly up high.
Whathappened pivoted back and forth quite a bit with his strategy and how Andrew would deal with the fight. Seemed like meta-gaming at some points. I don't buy that Andrew can just cause lightning strikes at will, regardless of the weather. I also don't buy that his TK shields are always on, as BoF proved. There was a lot of mix-ups about the context from Chronicle, but for the most part, BoF seemed to make the most sense, despite Whathappened saying otherwise. Andrew's offensive options are limited to punching since he's in the air, with nothing nearby to use as a projectile against Beast Boy. I don't really see Andrew tagging Beast Boy in any meaningful way, so Beast Boy receives no damage from this fight.
This was not a good debate, guys. I'm sorry to say, just @bladeoffury taking advantage of an inexperienced debater as per usual, and @whathappened diving into all his traps full speed. I'm not even sure how I should vote on this, it didn't look like there was any actual agreement on the very setting of the fight, and obviously something this fundamental prevents any fruitful discussion by extent. You were butting heads moreso than making a case.
The main problem is, I cannot visualise any fight, because you were arguing two different fights entirely. Where do they start? Were there any agreed upon limits by the end? You talked about Andrew's forcefields I don't know how many times. How do they work at last? The only time this was ever presented was in BoF's opening with that fork stab. So is the forcefield no different than a body-tight armor in form? Things like this are important but not explained at all. Don't take anything for granted. Beyond these issues, I don't know what's worse. BoF's entire debating style of choice built around using hypotheticals with no base that he'd never allow his opponents to use, or WhatHappened blatantly misinterpreting his character's own powers and scenes. I think the latter, because he was called out on it, and put on the defensive from the get-go that way, so I will vote for Beast Boy to win this "ambush".
First off, I love @bladeoffury debates, because they always get messy and he's got a unique style that I appreciate. This won't impact on my overall view on who wins or whatnot, it's just a observation.
The first two votes kinda sum up my initial thoughts on this: this is less of a debate and more of a argument as the lads just couldn't agree on anything. Zero common ground, no real basis on anything but their own talking points. BoF was more self-aware through and managed to pick up on XLR8's sloppy argumentation, namely his lack of feat analysis (and the opposite at points in inventing context that never really appeared or manifest like stated) but yeah, lots of bad points made here and not really any quantification of HOW such a fight would go or whatnot. Andrew seems like a decent glass cannon but he was argued completely differently to what he appears to be usually capable of: channelling lightning strikes, something which from the posts only happened like what, once? And it was clearly by accident as well. BoF pointed out all of these issues and really put XLR8 on the backburner, forcing him once more to focus a lot on defending his points rather than attacking his own. He kept changing his strat and that also buried him in terms of confidence.
All in all, I can't say this was any good: BoF also makes some very obvious points where I'm scratching my head a bit by how silly they are at points: but those never got picked up on here. All in all, BoF takes the win.....again.
I'll be brief and vote for Beast Boy for the win for the many complicated and confusing reasons above. I also agree about the various problems with the debate in general. But yeah, BB for the win.
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