Comic Vine Battle of the Week VOTING: Cardiac vs. Hobgoblin

For this one I'm gonna say Cardiac

Kingsley is the original Hobgoblin and the best Hobgoblin ever.

Cardiac is a very interesting and smart character.

I would like to see both characters again is Superior Spider-Man.

Vote: Hobgoblin

If you know either character well, it's your duty to drop a knowledge bomb and help educate the people who may not even know these characters!

I really don't care this week, but I voted Cardiac

After doing some research, it seems to me Cardiac wins. He has the raw power to take out HobGob

I agree. I know old Phil Urich is a shades of awesome, but Kingsley never really was. He was more a cloak and dagger character in Spider Stories rather than a legit threat. Most stories involved Kingsley playing the step ahead game with Parker and others to keep his identity secret while causing mayhem for cash.

Cardiac is a fighter from what I read and seen. He has only like 50 Appearances and Hob Goblin has 250+ Appearances. Seems like a no brainer who is more feat heavy, however when you come down to it Kingsley appearances are mostly running around playing keep away. Half of those appearances are not even Kingsley, but some schmuck dressed as Hob Goblin to throw Spidey off.

If this was Phil Urich, or even Demogoblin, I chose the Hob Goblin. Kingsley is not really a fighter at all. He is a waste of story space and thats all.

Cardiac has my vote.

@k4tzm4n: I just went on this role of why Cardiac wins and accidentally clicked Hob Goblin.

See! Kingsley only wins through trickery!

gonna go with hobgoblin on this one

@cadencev2: Ha! As for Phil, his lunatic laugh is a huuuuuuge wildcard, so odds are I won't use him anytime soon.

True that. Although.... Creeper vs Phil might be cool.

Joker vs Phil might be cool too

Just looked at powers and abilities on both, Cardiac would kick the crap out of Hobgoblin

Cardiac having more impressive stats doesn't automatically mean he wins. I'd strongly recommend actually seeing both in action before casting your vote. Just because Cardiac has impressive durability does not mean he'd go unfazed by Hobgoblin's weapons at all.

Cardiac may have impressive stats but as someone who has read every issue with both characters, I can tell you, Cardiac is not nearly as capable as Kingsley.

@cadencev2: Have you ever even read a story with the original Hobgoblin? Waste of story space? The Original Hobgoblin stories by Roger Stern are some of the greatest comics Marvel has ever produced.

I'd love to see you make an extensive case considering many people are looking to learn about both characters. If you have time, of course.

Cardiac.

Actually I read a few as a kid, worst comics I spent my cash on as the Hob Goblin arc I read was mostly a detective case then him actually fighting.

I read plenty with Demogoblin. He was awesome!

So yeah, I read Hob Goblins and Kingsley from what I read never interested me in anything but hiding his identity.

Cardiac Wins, vibranium-mesh skin, Super-speed/strength/reflexes, and beta beam particles how is Hobgoblin going to out speed Cardiac(to those that think he has a chance)?

Cardiac is under arrest.

as much as i love hob's, I have to go with Cardiac.

Cardiac has a quasi-super intellect and beta-particle-reactor implant that allows him superhuman strength, speed, reflexes and stamina; he can also use the reactor to channel concussive energy blasts with his fists, or through his staff (which makes it a bit more powerful as a focused and piercing attack). He also has vibranium-meshed-skin giving him durability at odds with Black Panther.

Between Eli’s reactor and Kingsley’s Goblin formula, Im pretty sure they are both relatively even in physicals. But, I give an edge to Cardiac with his Vibranium-meshed skin. He also seems to be more aggressive in fights; whereas Kingsley seems to use trickery. It seems like a really close fight, but I still give it to Mr. Wirtham in the end.

I second this. The match up intrigues me.

Well I will be honest I don't know much about Cardiac because I've only remember reading him in a few appearances of amazing Spider-man. But from what I remember about him, he's much more powerful than Hobgoblin. Kingsley has been shown to be a worthy adversary, but Cardiac is better is some ways. His physical capabilities are much greater than Goblins and he doesn't require a bunch of weapons to kick a**. But like I said I only remember a few appearances here and there so I could be wrong. Please someone tell me if i'm wrong.

I think cardiac would win, because his vibranium mesh skin would probably be able to handle all of hobgoblins weapons

Let's not sell Kingsley short here. This man has been a master manipulator, awesome with prep and is quite the mercenary. If you can overlook the fact that he started out as a fashion designer...regardless, he was intelligent enough to improve upon Norman's original goblin formula, and enjoys superhuman stats himself.

This is a guy that has been able to go at it with Spidey, and has enhanced speed (fast enough to tag Spidey), strength (near or equivalent to Spidey), durability/stamina, and reflexes -- if I get a chance, when I get home, I'll try and share some scans, but I am making no promises at this point in time. Cardiac is not so far beyond Hobgoblin stat wise that this battle is unreasonable, and I really don't think @k4tzm4n would have made this battle if that were the case. Kingsley is not just some guy in goblin suit. This is a mercenary with an enhanced goblin formula running through his veins without the nasty side effects that Norman got, and was said to be even stronger than Norman initially.

Equipment wise, he is pretty decked out. He has a goblin glider (heavily armored and I believe he can control from a distance with cybernetics and such), routinely carries explosive/incendiary/concussive devices, smoke bombs, razor sharp throwing blades (not much of an issue for Cardiac on that one unless maybe used to help disarm), bullet proof armor (to go with his durability), can do pulses of electric shocks through his gauntlets (I don't remember the exact voltage, but most sites claim up to 10,000 volts -- enough to affect at least Spidey's level durability), and of course the blasters in his gauntlets (at the fingertips) with a computerized system that can alter how and where shots are fired when trained on a target, and are more than capable of stunning someone with Spider-Man's durability (who is beyond durable). The blasters have been shown to punch through a city street and blow a gas main beneath it, and the randomized patterns were enough to push Spidey's abilities to their limits.

Spidey and Hobgoblin have gone toe to toe, with Hob's strength being more than enough to harm Spidey. Not to mention the fact that having a multitude of fairly even back and forth battles, there is at least one very telling instance of Kingsley having Spidey dead to rights...had it not been for outside interference, Spidey would have been dead without a doubt. Kingsley has survived all out assaults from Spidey, and can take a punch...he is exceedingly durable.

Let's not forget chemical warfare. He has used bombs that have various neurotoxins, capable of knocking people out (and I can think of at least one instance where Cardiac was rendered unconscious by some fumes at a toy factory), dulling Spidey's spider-sense, and even stripping Spidey of his wall crawling ability. Incendiary bombs capable of tearing through at least 3 inch thick steel, and of course bombs capable of affecting large areas. Kingsley with his standard bag of tricks brings a lot of options and versatility to the fight.

And anyone who thought Phil would be a better match? The Goblin War in Amazing Spider-Man...Kingsley and Urich go toe to toe, nearly evenly matched, and Kingsley ends up winning in the end (via cheapshot, but a win is a win). Besides, the more current appearance by Kingsley even shows he grew in skill (see the Devil-Spider scene in The Goblin War, where he displays some martial arts, weapons use, and tagging foes he is not even looking at).

This is not a stomp by any stretch of the imagination, and honestly, I feel Kingsley is far more skilled and experienced. Cardiac is a tough opponent, and is far from inexperienced, and has a ton of raw power on his side, but can be hurt by people with strength levels comparable to Spidey, which Kingsley has.

I am going with Hobgoblin for this one after a hard fought battle that ends with maybe a little neurotoxin and a cheap shot=)

Based on Cardiac's recent appearances, I certainly wouldn't give him an automatic edge, he's not as impressive as everyone thinks. Hobgoblin is no slouch, he's resourceful, manipulative, and willing to do anything to win. I'd give this Hobgoblin if the battle is quick. If it becomes drawn out, Kingsley's signature arrogance will allow Cardiac a chance to score a win. So I'd say 7 times out of 10 Hobgoblin will take this. To anyone that doubts this is true, I'd refer you to any issue of Spider-Man written by Stern featuring the Hobgoblin, any issue of Spider-Girl featuring Hobgoblin, and of course the recent Superior Spider-Man issues with Cardiac. Seriously, no room for doubt here.

Agree.

Hmm..

Mental- Cardiac has higher intelligence and is a gifted inventor, but I'd say Hobgoblin has the better tactical mind and is unquestionably the more ruthless of the two.

Strength- Cardiac is the stronger of the two with 15 Ton capacity to Hobgoblin's 10.

Durability- Cardiac has superior durability due to the vibranium mesh grafted to his flesh making him resistant to most attacks, but Hobgoblin's armor and enhanced durability will allow him to take some hits. I believe Kingsley also has a slight healing factor, which Cardiac lacks.

Speed and Agility- Edge to Hobgoblin. His speed and reflexes are superhuman, while Cardiac's speed is only slightly more than peak human.

Transportation- Hobgoblin has the edge here. I couldn't find a listed top speed for Cardiac's glider, but the Goblin's can reach around 90 miles per hour. The main factor here however is that Hobgoblin has the hands free advantage in a combat situation and appears to be far more maneuverable.

Weaponry- Edge to the Hobgoblin. Cardiac's beta staff is likely more powerful than Hobgoblin's gauntlets, but Hobgoblin has circuitry to lay down a randomized firing pattern that Cardiac wouldn't be able to easily avoid (not that Cardiac couldn't take the hits with only minimal damage,) while Hobgoblin has the agility and maneuverability to make it possible for him to dodge Cardiac's beta blasts. Not to mention that Hobgoblin also carries a veritable arsenal of grenades, razor bats, and gas bombs that he isn't shy about using.

Fighting Skill- Edge to Cardiac. According to Official power grids, Cardiac has more practical fighting ability than Kingsley.

All told, I give a narrow victory to Cardiac. 6/10, but it's pretty damn near too close to call. Any slip up on Cardiac's behalf and Hobgoblin will be all over him.

I feel that in a random chance encounter Hobgoblin has the better chance of winning.

@greenlucario: To be fair, Cardiac's showing in Superior Spider-Man is significantly less impressive than all of his previous battles. I'd say it would be completely unfair to judge the character on just his poor showing against SpOck. I'm happy to see you doing such a thorough job representing Hobgoblin, but I hardly believe it's balanced to reduce Cardiac essentially to "that guy SpOck beat up." After all, it doesn't contradict everything he's done prior to this.

They both have been.

@greenlucario: I don't think it's fair to judge Cardiac's showings based on how well he's fared against Spider-Man compared to Kingsley. Kingsley has been up against a morals on Peter Parker whereas Cardiac faced SpOck, a guy who has the morals of a sociopath and isn't afraid of lethal force. You can't compare them via this route.

I'm surprised Hobby's getting more votes. I think it's more of a popularity thing then people actually doing research before they vote. That's a shame too because I think Cardiac should have this in the bag. I think his durability is too high for HG's attacks to really do much to him. The guy has Vibranium built into his skin!

But Cardiac can be and has been affected with superhuman strength...which Hobgoblin has (he is at least near Spidey's level). He is durable as hell, but he can be hurt.

I am backing Hobgoblin, but on this, I do agree. You shouldn't judge Cardiac on that one outing alone.

Time for people to see what Cardiac is capable of. Look at this respect thread for Cardiac before making your mind up. I believe that this might be Gregg's respect thread from his post on the Comics Ledger http://thecomicsledger.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=respect&action=display&thread=1445

I thought Roderick was at a very low end level of Superhuman Strength. I thought he was no where near Green Goblin. I think he is only around a 5 tonner or so. I could be wrong though.

this.

I don't know much about each character (Never even heard of Cardiac), but I actually went and did some research this time:

Power:

Using his staff Cardiac was able to sink a massive boat with the power from his blast. His concussive blasts are powerful enough to bring down entire buildings and it can even knock out durable opponents like Rhino.

Hobgoblin glider can reach the speed of 90 miles per hour and can support 400 pounds of weight. The equipment also includes concussive and incendiary Jack O'Lanterns, smoke and gas-emitting bombs, bat-shaped razor-edged throwing blades and gloves with channel pulsed discharges of electricity, reaching up to 10,000 volts. He was actually physically stronger than the original Green Goblin in the beginning, because of longer exposure to the formula. The computerized system cybernetically causes the blasters to randomly vary their attack vectors when trained on a particular target, with the end result being a stream of firepower that even Spider-Man has had trouble dodging.

Strength:

Cardiac has superhuman strength and he can lift up to 15 tons (under optimum conditions).

Ingesting the formula gained Hobgoblin superhuman strength near Spider-Man's level (8 - 10 tons) and above that of Norman Osborn.

Durability:

Due to the vibranium mesh and armor, Cardiac is very durable and difficult to injure. He has proven capable of withstanding gunfire from pistols and submachine guns.

The standard Hobgoblin equipment includes bulletproof mail armor with an overlapping tunic, cape, and cowl. The variation used by Norman granted him a healing factor but it's unknown if the same holds true for Roderick.

Endurence and Reaction time/Dodging:

Cardiac is capable of running and moving at speeds greater than even the finest human athlete, assisted by his Beta Particle Reactor pumping his blood. He can exert himself at peak capacity for several hours before fatigue begins to affect him. Cardiac has shown that he is able to dodge multiple bullets, blasts from Stone, tail strikes from Scorpion, and even Spider-Man's webbing.

Hobgoblins reflexes, speed, stamina and intelligence were enhanced to superhuman levels. Roderick's body produces less fatigue toxins, allowing him to work at peak capacity for several hours before fatigue begins to wear him down.

Misc: Cardiac's skin and muscle tissue has been grafted with a mesh composed of Vibranium, which allows him to move without making a sound.

So given the setting of this fight i see it going down like this:

They start roughly 50 feet apart and Hobgoblin is on his glider about 20 feet in the air. Hobgoblin charges Cardiac, throws some Jack O'Lanterns. Cardiac dodge some, but takes a few hits. Now since its night and there's a fair amount of cover between them (parked vehicles alleys, rooftops, and building interiors). Remember Cardiac's skin and muscle tissue has been grafted with a mesh composed of Vibranium, which allows him to move without making a sound. So Cardiac sneaks around until he can surprise attack Hobgoblin. He punches Hobgoblin off his glider. And the fight goes to melee and H2H. Cardiac can lift up to 15 tons, but only has speeds greater than the finest human athlete. Hobgoblin has strength near Spider-Man's level (8 - 10 tons), but his reflexes, speed, stamina and intelligence were enhanced to superhuman levels. So both takes some hits but Hobgoblin dances around Cardiacs more. Hobgoblin runs to get more distence between them. He throws some smoke and gas-emitting bombs, bat-shaped razor-edged throwing blades ETC. Cardiac powers on threw them. He grabs his staff and shoots at Hobgoblin, Hobgoblin dodges around him. A stray shoot brings down a building behind them, Hobs gets KO'd by some falling objects. Cardiac wins. (I wanted Hobgoblin to win, but I don't think it would really go down that way.)

Nope, unless my memory is failing me, he about 10 tons. The formula made him stronger than Norman. I don't have my nifty collection with me at work (which I am going to be at for 24 to 36 hours) to pull from, but most sites on web searches agree with my not altogether great memory.

Just FYI, I do believe Hobgoblin's weapons would absolutely take a toll on Cardiac. I wouldn't have made the match if I thought otherwise, silly!

This does two things: It does show those who don't anything about Cardiac some of what he is capable of (he is indeed a powerhouse), but it also shows that the vaunted vibranium mesh doesn't make him invincible. He is tough, but can be hurt/stopped.

All in all, great thread, and thanks for sharing!

I wholeheartedly agree. I think they are being overlooked in the debates some. His weaponry has been capable of taking their toll of Spider-Man's durability, I truly believe he can affect Cardiac with his arsenal (and Cardiac can most definitely affect him).

@k4tzm4n: Hey I actually did some research, instead of just voting Batman. Do I get Viner Arguement of the Week thing? please?

I'd say the air combat would put Hobgoblin in the win column. You cant punch someone that is 20 feet or more in the air. Spider-Man is at level 20 strength currently so if Hobgoblin is about equal then that means he is stronger than Cardiac off the bat (no pun intended). I think it would be close if Cardiac gets him off that Glider, but being in the air gives him a huge advantage. Further more Hobgoblin just needs to run him down. Let Cardiac blow all his energy shooting at him and he will need to recharge or die. So I say Hobgoblin wins in the end. All Goblins are notoriously hard to kill. Unless they forget who they are that is.

Cardiac has a glider as well that is capable of firing energy blasts I do believe...

@wyldsong

Cardiac has a glider as well that is capable of firing energy blasts I do believe...

Yes i saw that, but apparently its a hang glider that has no propulsion other than gravity and wind, I would say it's more of a liability than a benefit for him to use it. Like a dogfight between a WWII fighter plane and the Wright Brother's plane. He would also have to start on top of the building for it to even play a factor, or spend time getting to the roof just to be able to glide across the street. I dunno.

No, its a bit more than that. I do believe it is powered by his beta particles. I don't believe it as maneuverable or durable as Hobgoblin's glider, but he can even summon it from distances and it comes to him on it's own power. Check out Cardiac's latest appearance in Superior Spider-Man. It flies to him, and picks him up while he is ground level after he summons it.

I am not saying it grants him a win (I am obviously in Hobgoblin's corner), but it would probably help some. I do agree that Hob's glider is probably a lot better than Cardiac's though.

Yeah that is a good point. I remember that issue now. Hmm. I still feel like he wouldn't waste his time with it really. this is kinda hard to project. Hand to hand i would give it to Cardiac.

You only get Viner Argument of the week if Cardiac wins on votes. Which so far, he isn't doing.

Oh and Gregg I found your Cardiac respect thread and posted it on here to educate people.