• 54 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for arcus1
#1 Edited by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

In this battle, Colleen Wing will take on a gauntlet of fighters from the CWverse, how far can she go?

Colleen is from Netflix's Iron Fist.

All are armed as stated (varies with the round)

Fights take place in a dojo. Colleen is fully rested and healed for each fight

Victory by ko

And since I apparently need to specify:

Colleen is depowered

Round 1: Curtis Holt (both are unarmed)

Round 2: Rene Ramirez (both are unarmed)

Round 3: Dinah Drake-depowered (both have a staff)

Round 4: Laurel Lance-depowered (composite E1 and E2). Laurel has her tonfa, Colleen has a staff

Round 5: Thea Queen (both have swords)

Round 6: Nyssa al Ghul (both have swords)

Round 7: John Diggle (Colleen has a staff, Diggle is unarmed)

Round 8: Alex Danvers (both have staffs)

How far does she make it?

Avatar image for assemblesquad
#2 Posted by assemblesquad (2318 posts) - - Show Bio

She stops at 6

Avatar image for angeljax
#3 Posted by AngelJax (11073 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops somewhere between Thea and Nyssa.

I'll see if my thoughts will change after finishing

Avatar image for arcus1
#4 Edited by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax:

I've been skimming the fights, and I think S2 did more to boost Colleen's fighting ability than anyone else

Avatar image for angeljax
#5 Posted by AngelJax (11073 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: I'm only on episode 5, she hasn't done anything amazing yet. She gave Mary a decent fight but it seems she would've lost had the fight had gone on longer/Misty hadn't intervened.

However I've seen *that* picture of Colleen and I wanna know wtf is up with it.

Avatar image for arcus1
#6 Edited by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@arcus1: I'm only on episode 5, she hasn't done anything amazing yet. She gave Mary a decent fight but it seems she would've lost had the fight had gone on longer/Misty hadn't intervened.

However I've seen *that* picture of Colleen and I wanna know wtf is up with it.

Yeah, after that episode was when I started seeing some more impressive stuff from her

I got the basic gist of what was up with that, but I still need actual context

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#7 Posted by rogueshadow (28822 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Her fight against Davos' students was impressive. Though, if you're referencing her fight/training with Danny on the roof, I don't think it was that good. Once he fully centred himself, he showed that he is far better in h2h like he did in their sparring in S1 . And he still isn't quite at 100%. I'm on E9 right now.

Moderator
Avatar image for supremegeneration
#8 Posted by SupremeGeneration (10227 posts) - - Show Bio

Alex is pretty high up.

Avatar image for georgewbush
#9 Posted by GeorgeWBush (10803 posts) - - Show Bio

She did well against Davos

Possible Clear imo

Avatar image for arcus1
#10 Posted by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

Yeah, the fight with his students was in large part what I was referring to. I find fodder fights to be very helpful in establishing where characters stand, and that fight was solidly above where I would've placed her previously. However, I thought her training him was something of a role reversal from when he was teaching her stuff in S1, made them out to be much closer than I would've said they were before. And there's some stuff in the finale, I haven't actually watched for full context, I'm sure there's some, but...you'll see

Avatar image for arcus1
#11 Posted by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration: I rate her pretty highly, wasn’t sure about her placement vs Diggle, but she’s definitely better than most of the others (maybe Nyssa could be better)

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#12 Posted by rogueshadow (28822 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Yeah I really didn't expect her to win there. I was pleasantly surprised when she did, and not with large amounts of difficulty either. It was a pretty clean victory.

Moderator
Avatar image for nerdchore
#13 Posted by nerdchore (7993 posts) - - Show Bio

She could stop at laurel. Stops at thea.

Avatar image for arcus1
#14 Edited by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow:

Yeah, I expected the fight to get interrupted or something else to happen, but she just won, pretty simple (which is gonna make it a very nice feat to use)

How far do you think she gets?

Avatar image for rogueshadow
#15 Posted by rogueshadow (28822 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
Avatar image for bpg
#17 Posted by BPG (503 posts) - - Show Bio

Clears her showing against Mary was damm impressive

Avatar image for anthp2000
#18 Posted by ANTHP2000 (22969 posts) - - Show Bio

Nyssa should be above Diggie.

Avatar image for rbt
#19 Posted by RBT (25807 posts) - - Show Bio

She should probably beat Nyssa if she's anywhere close to Danny. So, clears.

Avatar image for angeljax
#20 Edited by AngelJax (11073 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: @arcus1: I think you guys are overestimating Colleen's fodder feat. Those students were newly formed fighters. At best they've only could've been training with Davos for a day or two. Logically they should've been worse than worse than Bakuto's students who also weren't that prolific or impressive.

It's a neat showing but it's not something that she couldn't have done before.

Avatar image for rbt
#21 Posted by RBT (25807 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, I did not see Thea there. Assuming prime Thea, Colleen could stop there. Also, why is Dig above Nyssa against a swordswoman?

Avatar image for bladeoffury
#22 Posted by BladeOfFury (2901 posts) - - Show Bio

Thea >Nyssa

Avatar image for arcus1
#23 Posted by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@rogueshadow: @arcus1: I think you guys are overestimating Colleen's fodder feat. Those students were newly formed fighters. At best they've only could've been training with Davos for a day or two. Logically they should've been worse than worse than Bakuto's students who also weren't that prolific or impressive.

It's a neat showing but it's not something that she couldn't have done before.

It's not like these guys had never been in a fight before joining up with Davos, they were at the very least street fighters (look at Colleen fighting the guys in the restaurant, those guys clearly knew how to fight, and I think they're some of the same people Davos trained? Haven't gotten that far in the series but that's what it looked like)

They went out of their way to show Davos training these guys, I doubt it was meant to be insignificant

All of Bakuto's students were pretty well trained: the one from Colleen's dojo was already winning cage fights before he even went to Bakuto's school, and iirc he described how he was learning a lot from Bakuto (haven't seen the episode in a while though)

Sure, the guys Colleen fought weren't the most elite ninjas out there, or even top tier SHIELD agents, but even taking on 7 untrained fodder at once would still be a solid feat. Beating 7 trained fighters as easily as she did, while being at least slightly distracted by BB's condition, is not something I would've expected Colleen to do before

Avatar image for angeljax
#24 Posted by AngelJax (11073 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: She didn't even beat them easily though. It was a decent amount of struggle to keep them down. It took repeated hits to take down single fighters, and she got tagged multiple times in the sequence, so it wasn't a breeze for her.

Some of Bakuto's students were impressive because of the cage fights. Like Mary and the other guy Colleen fought. But not every student was capable of winning IIRC. Furthermore, I think the only students who did participate in cage fights were the ones who also trained under Colleen, which undermines the feat a bit because she would've knew her students well enough to decisively beat them.

I believe the kids at Bayard and the kids at the kitchen were different. They were definitely more/new kids towards the end of the season. Not sure if they were previously untrained, but I honestly don't think it matters all that much.

Avatar image for arcus1
#25 Posted by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@arcus1: She didn't even beat them easily though. It was a decent amount of struggle to keep them down. It took repeated hits to take down single fighters, and she got tagged multiple times in the sequence, so it wasn't a breeze for her.

Some of Bakuto's students were impressive because of the cage fights. Like Mary and the other guy Colleen fought. But not every student was capable of winning IIRC. Furthermore, I think the only students who did participate in cage fights were the ones who also trained under Colleen, which undermines the feat a bit because she would've knew her students well enough to decisively beat them.

I believe the kids at Bayard and the kids at the kitchen were different. They were definitely more/new kids towards the end of the season. Not sure if they were previously untrained, but I honestly don't think it matters all that much.

Sure, it wasn't totally effortless, but it was way better than I would've expected from her. The couple (few?) times she got tagged, it didn't phase her at all. And needing multiple hits to keep people down when fighting that many guys at once isn't unusual-can't focus as much on one-shotting a single target when you're fending off lots of people. For example, Daisy vs the Watchdogs: Daisy wasn't one-shotting guys, and frequently ones she knocked down were getting back up because Daisy was occupied fighting other guys (this fight with Colleen kinda changed my perspective on her similar to how the Watchdog fight changed my perception of Daisy back when it happened-hence the comparison)

Colleen's student had to be good enough to get accepted to Bakuto's program, I don't see why the other students wouldn't have had to meet similar qualifications

I know BB was with the kitchen kids and then was one of Davos's students, pretty sure his crew was part of that group (there were more than just those guys, I know, but I haven't actually gotten that far to fully see where all Davos was recruiting from). Regardless, these were not soft kids in the first fight of their lives or anything like that

Avatar image for slade-prime
#26 Edited by Slade-Prime (928 posts) - - Show Bio

Is using chi with her sword allowed? if so then She clears, if not she stops at 6

Avatar image for angeljax
#27 Posted by AngelJax (11073 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: See, difference is that Daisy had broken bones in each arm and wasn't even particularly trying to win that fight, and she was fighting better opponents. Not really comparable.

What makes you say that Colleen could've have done this before?

Avatar image for arcus1
#28 Posted by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

@arcus1: See, difference is that Daisy had broken bones in each arm and wasn't even particularly trying to win that fight, and she was fighting better opponents. Not really comparable.

What makes you say that Colleen could've have done this before?

Yeah her arms were injured, but her gauntlets helped stabilize them (hence why she started doing worse once the guy removed one of her gauntlets), and it's not like she couldn't hit or anything. The only time we started seeing noticeable pain from her arms was when the guy got one of her gauntlets off. I also wouldn't say she wasn't particularly trying to win that fight, that would imply that she just let them beat her up or something, which we clearly see was not the case. She didn't seem to expect to win, but she wasn't gonna go down without a fight. As for being better opponents, they were bigger, but I don't remember anything to indicate they were better trained (I know Watchdogs were training in military tactics, but how much of that was actually h2h focused).

What feats did she have before to indicate she could take on so many fighters, unarmed, and win? The most fodder I remember her fighting before was when she took on 4 of her students in a training exercise (when she was armed with a training sword).

Avatar image for arcus1
#29 Posted by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

Is using chi with her sword allowed? if so then She clears, if not she stops at 6

No

Avatar image for percy_scott
#30 Posted by Percy_Scott (84 posts) - - Show Bio

Those students that Colleen fought at Bayard were explicitly shown to be the same kids that Colleen fought in the kitchen of Yip's restaurant.

Colleen only met BB because he was sent by Rhino to lure her into a trap and shoot her for embarrassing their group in the fight at Yip's restaurant. His group was later recruited onscreen by Davos, and they were definitely the ones Colleen confronted at Bayard as they only knew Mrs. Yang and the other triad members were coordinating their offensive there due to BB telling his friend, who he mistakenly believed was still on his side. Further, he was only stabbed because he went outside to attempt to talk them down, something he only did because they were friends.

Avatar image for bleidd
#31 Posted by bleidd (1207 posts) - - Show Bio

Clears.

Avatar image for the_magister
#32 Edited by The_Magister (12886 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@angeljax said:

@arcus1: See, difference is that Daisy had broken bones in each arm and wasn't even particularly trying to win that fight, and she was fighting better opponents. Not really comparable.

What makes you say that Colleen could've have done this before?

Yeah her arms were injured, but her gauntlets helped stabilize them (hence why she started doing worse once the guy removed one of her gauntlets), and it's not like she couldn't hit or anything. The only time we started seeing noticeable pain from her arms was when the guy got one of her gauntlets off. I also wouldn't say she wasn't particularly trying to win that fight, that would imply that she just let them beat her up or something, which we clearly see was not the case. She didn't seem to expect to win, but she wasn't gonna go down without a fight. As for being better opponents, they were bigger, but I don't remember anything to indicate they were better trained (I know Watchdogs were training in military tactics, but how much of that was actually h2h focused).

What feats did she have before to indicate she could take on so many fighters, unarmed, and win? The most fodder I remember her fighting before was when she took on 4 of her students in a training exercise (when she was armed with a training sword).

Colleen fought teenagers with two days' worth of training each, most of which consisted of basic stances...I don't think it's beyond her previous capabilities as shown in Season 1. She wasn't that bad.

And a lot of Watchdogs are ex-HYDRA, as per a statement. I don't really get your logic that militaristic operatives aren't good h2h combatants just because they don't specifically have training montages or something. I think it's pretty apparent that Watchdog/SHIELD/HYDRA training includes h2h to a heavy extent... we see this in fights: the agents that fought Cap in the elevator utilized a plethora of cqc tactics, the agents that fought Ward in the hallway were choreographed well, and it's well established in Season 1 of AoS that SHIELD (and by extension, HYDRA) agents go through strength training, weapons training, and various h2h techniques including disarms...Ward states that these skills are integral to being an effective field operative. It's even consistent with the basic skillset of a RL special forces operative (which these guys are well above in every way). Given the state Daisy was in, she performed better than Colleen against fodder who are much, much better.

Do you think the Watchdogs would actually be worse than high school kids that Davos trained for less than a week? I don't see Colleen's feat as very impressive at all, tbh.

To get back on the thread's topic, that feat didn't boost my perception of Colleen at all. She's still a proficient h2h fighter, nothing more. Diggle could stop her right in her tracks with his stats advantage and the fact that he's a better practical fighter.

Avatar image for arcus1
#33 Posted by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@angeljax said:

@arcus1: See, difference is that Daisy had broken bones in each arm and wasn't even particularly trying to win that fight, and she was fighting better opponents. Not really comparable.

What makes you say that Colleen could've have done this before?

Yeah her arms were injured, but her gauntlets helped stabilize them (hence why she started doing worse once the guy removed one of her gauntlets), and it's not like she couldn't hit or anything. The only time we started seeing noticeable pain from her arms was when the guy got one of her gauntlets off. I also wouldn't say she wasn't particularly trying to win that fight, that would imply that she just let them beat her up or something, which we clearly see was not the case. She didn't seem to expect to win, but she wasn't gonna go down without a fight. As for being better opponents, they were bigger, but I don't remember anything to indicate they were better trained (I know Watchdogs were training in military tactics, but how much of that was actually h2h focused).

What feats did she have before to indicate she could take on so many fighters, unarmed, and win? The most fodder I remember her fighting before was when she took on 4 of her students in a training exercise (when she was armed with a training sword).

Colleen fought teenagers with two days' worth of training each, most of which consisted of basic stances...I don't think it's beyond her previous capabilities as shown in Season 1. She wasn't that bad.

And a lot of Watchdogs are ex-HYDRA, as per a statement. I don't really get your logic that militaristic operatives aren't good h2h combatants just because they don't specifically have training montages or something. I think it's pretty apparent that Watchdog/SHIELD/HYDRA training includes h2h to a heavy extent... we see this in fights: the agents that fought Cap in the elevator utilized a plethora of cqc tactics, the agents that fought Ward in the hallway were choreographed well, and it's well established in Season 1 of AoS that SHIELD (and by extension, HYDRA) agents go through strength training, weapons training, and various h2h techniques including disarms...Ward states that these skills are integral to being an effective field operative. It's even consistent with the basic skillset of a RL special forces operative (which these guys are well above in every way). Given the state Daisy was in, she performed better than Colleen against fodder who are much, much better.

Do you think the Watchdogs would actually be worse than high school kids that Davos trained for less than a week? I don't see Colleen's feat as very impressive at all, tbh.

To get back on the thread's topic, that feat didn't boost my perception of Colleen at all. She's still a proficient h2h fighter, nothing more. Diggle could stop her right in her tracks with his stats advantage and the fact that he's a better practical fighter.

S1 Colleen never showed that she could engage that many opponents at once, especially not unarmed

My reason for bringing up stuff like training is that it's an easy way for us to determine how skilled the writer intends the fodder to be. This applies more when it comes to Hand ninjas vs soldiers, but it happened to come up here too.

If you wanna look at choeography, these "kids" have good fight choreography too. You yourself admitted that IF S2 choreography was AoS level quality

Where was it established that HYDRA has the exact same training as SHIELD, for all of their people? And who says that your average, nameless SHIELD or HYDRA goon is well above every elite special forces? If we're talking specialists like Ward or May, then sure, but just your basic grunt? When was that established in any concrete sense (that could be applied to every person who's ever fought for SHIELD or HYDRA)? When was it established, or even suggested, that every Watchdog could somehow make a Navy Seal look like an amateur?

I wouldn't say they're worse, they do have a size advantage. But I also wouldn't say they're inherently better just because they're from a pseudo-military organization. In regards to training time, we both know that writers take liberties when it comes to how effective training time can be: a lot can be learned in a short amount of time if the plot demands it (more evident with important characters, to be fair). The show went out of its way to have Davos be training these guys (who were already evidently competent fighters, why bother with that if it wasn't meant to be important?

Avatar image for the_magister
#34 Edited by The_Magister (12886 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: I made a thread on why SHIELD and HYDRA are better trained in h2h than some give them credit for. I think on the Vine people treat them as if a street thug would beat them in cqc, and as if they have zero h2h credentials or training whatsoever just because "it's not their main focus." I've already shown in that thread why that notion is false. H2H's a much bigger part of SHIELD training than it is RL military training, to the extent where agents are cleared for combat based on an official assessment of various skills including advanced h2h. In season 5, we see kids training in h2h at the HYDRA academy from a young age, and HYDRA agents generally seem to be portrayed as matches for SHIELD agents in tactics and skills throughout the show. If we nitpick at the level you're doing and ask for specific Rocky-style training montages, of course we won't have evidence. But the implication is very clear imo.

Davos' students weren't exactly portrayed as competent. I rewatched the episodes and they messed stuff up in training, fought amongst one another out of frustration with their progress, etc. Imo the idea of comparing high school kids with a days' worth of training to trained Watchdogs with hard, cold experience is just laughable. It's much less of a reach to say SHIELD/HYDRA/Watchdogs are elite than it is to say that teenagers with less than week of practicing stances are suddenly master martial artist badasses and Colleen is uber skilled because she beat them. imo nitpicking everything about Watchdogs and putting teenagers with two days of training on a pedestal is biased.

IMO, she is not making it past Diggle. That guy's just better than her.

Avatar image for anthp2000
#35 Posted by ANTHP2000 (22969 posts) - - Show Bio

I still think Nyssa is underrated. Colleen's new showings are being oversold... but she's Netflix so there ya have it.

Avatar image for the_magister
#36 Posted by The_Magister (12886 posts) - - Show Bio

I still think Nyssa is underrated. Colleen's new showings are being oversold... but she's Netflix so there ya have it.

Netflix has dethroned CW as the new TOAA fighters

Avatar image for arcus1
#37 Posted by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: I made a thread on why SHIELD and HYDRA are better trained in h2h than some give them credit for. I think on the Vine people treat them as if a street thug would beat them in cqc, and as if they have zero h2h credentials or training whatsoever just because "it's not their main focus." I've already shown in that thread why that notion is false. H2H's a much bigger part of SHIELD training than it is RL military training, to the extent where agents are cleared for combat based on an official assessment of various skills including h2h. In season 5, we see kids training in h2h at the HYDRA academy from a young age, and HYDRA agents generally seem to be portrayed as matches for SHIELD agents in tactics and skills throughout the show. If we nitpick at the level you're doing and ask for specific Rocky-style training montages, of course we won't have evidence. But the implication is very clear imo.

Davos' students weren't exactly portrayed as competent. I rewatched the episodes and they messed stuff up in training, fought amongst one another out of frustration with their progress, etc. Imo the idea of comparing high school kids with a days' worth of training to trained Watchdogs with hard, cold experience is just laughable. It's much less of a reach to say SHIELD/HYDRA/Watchdogs are elite than it is to say that teenagers with less than week of practicing stances are suddenly master martial artist badasses and Colleen is uber skilled because she beat them.

IMO, she is not making it past Diggle. That guy's just better than her.

Don't think I've ever acted like a random street thug would be better than an agent

That being said, you don't give the same credit to guys like Hand ninjas (or League of Assassins, unless that's changed), even though h2h combat is even more of a focus for them

Link to the thread? Because none of that convinced me that every single grunt with SHIELD and HYDRA is miles above every other elite special forces.

Is every single fighter in HYDRA trained in this academy? Are we to assume that every Watchdog Daisy fought came from that academy?

I don't think I ever claimed that the guys Colleen fought were master martial artists? But you keep implying that Davos just went to a random high school and plucked some kids who've never been in a fight in their lives, gave them a bit of training, and sent them out. That's not the case. We know that most of these guys have been on the streets, fighting, most if not all of their lives. You're acting like they've never experienced a fight before, but we know that's not the case. We saw some of them fight Colleen in the beginning of the series, where we could see they were competent (if you're looking at a choreography standpoint). And clearing through six fodder all attacking you at once is still a good feat regardless of how you rank those guys.

Avatar image for the_magister
#38 Edited by The_Magister (12886 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

Don't think I've ever acted like a random street thug would be better than an agent

That being said, you don't give the same credit to guys like Hand ninjas (or League of Assassins, unless that's changed), even though h2h combat is even more of a focus for them

Link to the thread? Because none of that convinced me that every single grunt with SHIELD and HYDRA is miles above every other elite special forces.

Is every single fighter in HYDRA trained in this academy? Are we to assume that every Watchdog Daisy fought came from that academy?

I don't think I ever claimed that the guys Colleen fought were master martial artists? But you keep implying that Davos just went to a random high school and plucked some kids who've never been in a fight in their lives, gave them a bit of training, and sent them out. That's not the case. We know that most of these guys have been on the streets, fighting, most if not all of their lives. You're acting like they've never experienced a fight before, but we know that's not the case. We saw some of them fight Colleen in the beginning of the series, where we could see they were competent (if you're looking at a choreography standpoint). And clearing through six fodder all attacking you at once is still a good feat regardless of how you rank those guys.

I was being hyperbolic with the street thug thing, but y'know

Link to thread

If you nitpick at this level of "every single Watchdog has to be proven to have come out of this academy to be a good combatant because they're ex-HYDRA," there's really nothing I can say to change your mind. There's something called logic and inference, Watchdogs that are ex-HYDRA would logically have similar training to other HYDRA agents we've seen. By the same vein of logic, can you prove that every single Hand ninja that Matt fought trained like we've seen certain Chaste and Hand warriors do? It's more suspect, considering that Hand factions are even more distinct/separate than HYDRA factions are. But we don't debate like that, because there's a level of logic that we use to infer skills.

Honestly, Colleen's feat still isn't impressive at all. These are not high tier fodder. Diggle taking out 1-2 Ghosts is much better tbh. I'm even inclined to say he stomps her due to his stats.

Avatar image for arcus1
#39 Edited by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister:

Yeah, that thread doesn't have nearly enough to convince me that every single SHIELD grunt puts Navy Seals to shame

Do we know that even most of the Watchdogs were ex-Hydra? All I remember about them was that they were like the KKK, but hated Inhumans. Where are you getting that the majority of Watchdogs were ex-HYDRA operatives?

You think that 1 Ghost = 6 guys?

Avatar image for the_magister
#40 Edited by The_Magister (12886 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Fair enough, the implication that SHIELD's the best security organization on the planet combined with that documentation of their training is enough to put them above RL spec ops for me. But agree to disagree.

The Watchdogs-HYDRA connection was established in the same episode with Yuri Zaikin, an assassin who was an ex-HYDRA agent that participated in the fall of the Triskelion or some other such event. Anton Ivanov's forces were comprised of ex-HYDRA, and it was guys from this group that appeared in Season 4. It's consistent with the fact that in Season 3, Watchdogs leader Felix Blake received funding and resources from Gideon Malick (a head of HYDRA). And them being well equipped and trained is consistent with Blake himself being a respected SHIELD agent, proven in the field. Any way you want to look at it, they are respectable fodder. Also, when Watchdogs alongside SHIELD agents were turned into Primitives, they retained their combat skills. And there wasn't really a distinction between Watchdog Primitives and SHIELD Primitives when it came to how they performed against May or anyone else.

I think 1 Ghost is a competent, experienced fighter. Which is more than can be said for these kids. At the least, Diggle taking 2 Ghosts puts him well above Colleen imo.

Avatar image for legacy6364
#41 Posted by LEGACY6364 (7408 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see her making it past Nyssa al Ghul.

Avatar image for the_magister
#42 Posted by The_Magister (12886 posts) - - Show Bio

@legacy6364: imo Nyssa's skill feat in the airport is great

Avatar image for legacy6364
#43 Posted by LEGACY6364 (7408 posts) - - Show Bio

@legacy6364: imo Nyssa's skill feat in the airport is great

Are you talking about Season 2 Episode 13?

Avatar image for the_magister
#44 Edited by The_Magister (12886 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister said:

@legacy6364: imo Nyssa's skill feat in the airport is great

Are you talking about Season 2 Episode 13?

I got no clue, but she rekt like 5 security guys

Avatar image for arcus1
#45 Posted by Arcus1 (27488 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Fair enough, the implication that SHIELD's the best security organization on the planet combined with that documentation of their training is enough to put them above RL spec ops for me. But agree to disagree.

The Watchdogs-HYDRA connection was established in the same episode with Yuri Zaikin, an assassin who was an ex-HYDRA agent that participated in the fall of the Triskelion or some other such event. Anton Ivanov's forces were comprised of ex-HYDRA, and it was guys from this group that appeared in Season 4. It's consistent with the fact that in Season 3, Watchdogs leader Felix Blake received funding and resources from Gideon Malick (a head of HYDRA). And them being well equipped and trained is consistent with Blake himself being a respected SHIELD agent, proven in the field. Any way you want to look at it, they are respectable fodder.

Also, when Watchdogs alongside SHIELD agents were turned into Primitives, they retained their combat skills. And there wasn't really a distinction between Watchdog Primitives and SHIELD Primitives when it came to how they performed against May or anyone else.

I think 1 Ghost is a competent, experienced fighter. Which is more than can be said for these kids. At the least, Diggle taking 2 Ghosts puts him well above Colleen imo.

It's enough for me to put their elite above elite spec ops, sure. But saying every single nameless grunt is meant to be leagues ahead of guys like Navy Seals sounds incredibly unsubstantiated.

Them getting funding from HYDRA doesn't mean that they exclusively recruit ex-HYDRA operatives. They were recruiting anyone who hated Inhumans

http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Watchdogs

Obviously the wiki's not all-knowing, but there's nothing about them being exclusively ex-HYDRA, or even predominantly ex-HYDRA. Just because there's HYDRA connections doesn't mean that they're all actually HYDRA

It's not like the Primitives did much to showcase immense fighting skill anyway

These guys have grown up fighting, saying they have no experience isn't accurate. Again, I'm not saying they're some sort of elite fighting force, but you're acting like they're just a bunch of little kids who'd never seen a fight before, which we know isn't the case.

Let's remove the high school component (and the training component). Which is more impressive, fighting 6 guys all at once, or fighting 1-2 more experienced guys? Because I'm not sure of any live-action human fodder who are individually dangerous enough to making fighting one or two of them leagues better than fighting 6 simultaneous opponents who are at least competent. Pretty sure this is another one of those fundamental disagreements that we've touched on before

Avatar image for the_magister
#46 Posted by The_Magister (12886 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: True but there was a lot of overlap with Ivanov's faction and HYDRA, this was established in Season 4. And regardless, Watchdog Primitives did no worse than SHIELD Primitives against Melinda May or other agents. That's enough for me to say they're supposed to be level.

To get on topic, Diggle fighting 1-2 good fighters is most certainly better. I think quality of fodder is even more important than quantity tbh, when discussing how 1v1 fights would go. It's more applicable.

It's why Oliver fighting 3 LoA ninjas is better than him beating 10 hardened thugs, imo.

Avatar image for the_magister
#47 Edited by The_Magister (12886 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: also BOI GO TO WORK that's more important than MUH FEATZ and MUH INTENT

Avatar image for jayskee
#48 Posted by jayskee (4738 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 8 or clears

Avatar image for legacy6364
#49 Posted by LEGACY6364 (7408 posts) - - Show Bio

@legacy6364 said:
@the_magister said:

@legacy6364: imo Nyssa's skill feat in the airport is great

Are you talking about Season 2 Episode 13?

I got no clue, but she rekt like 5 security guys

It was pretty damned badass.

Loading Video...
Avatar image for anthp2000
#50 Posted by ANTHP2000 (22969 posts) - - Show Bio