COC Tourney Round 1: Gods & Monsters vs Fear The Facists

@emperorthanos-: Also Watcher is still waiting for your decision anyway and I want to know if my pricing is okay with you.

I would have to disagree. Annihilation Army argued Surfer as supernova level in regards to durability and my character is star level as well. No one had a problem with either.

Well, except for you.

@emperorthanos- said:

But not Hell-Lords are at the same level, so it's kinda of a moot point. I've posted D'Spayre fighting an alternate reality Jean Grey in a mental battle but didn't post any of her feats to make said feat worth noticing...Same with Belasco. My plan was to provide feats for either of them when(If) questioned in my next reply order to not make my original post unnecessarily big.

Once again, it's not a real sun and Dormammu himself also spoken in awe when talking about Tazza and even Scarlet Witch(Showing they're powerful enough to get his consideration, but nothing else).

Dam, look's like it's confession time. Everyone broke the rules. ^

Ninja'd

Surfer surfs supernovas every now and then, he doesn't tank them. Whoever is arguing that is wrong. I had already expressed issues with your character before so your character being star level doesn't make it any more acceptable.

But thanks for also admitting that your character is over the limits

Confession? I wasn't hiding it. I argued Sailor at around star level in my team's post.

Didn't Kaguya create a star? Mundus create a universe? Are they both above limits now? What about Dialga, Palkia, and Darkrai?

Seeing as you had Jin I was under the impression star level was ok.

@higherpower: Yeah but star level, was apparently, banned.

Then how come Jin was allowed? Was he nerfed?

And if so, @darthjhawk can I just nerf Sailor?

They don't have to be equal but are you telling me he is drastically below the others even in his own realm? He would ahve to be massively below the others for it not be over the limits. May be he is that low and I'm wrong. I know nothing of these characters. That's why I said based on what was presented.

You never stated it wasn't a real sun and your scans seem to indicate that it is simply a sun that was powered by a god. I don't know anything about Tazza but depending on the incarnation Wanda can be extremely powerful.

Yes they are above the limits, happy. Is anyone using them? I don't know why you are bringing up random characters.

I specifically removed Limit Remover because Star level was too much for a herald tourney. I don't consider Jin to be star level with out it and never argued him to be star level.

@emperorthanos-: Yeah tbh I thought it was fishy how you were allowed Jin in the first place since he should be a teambuster. But I never saw the post where you nerfed him.

Oh come on man, you know as well as I do, that their feats in combat barely put them into high tier level much less teambuster. No one would bat an eyelash if any of these characters were chosen.

I am bringing them up because they are examples of characters who have a high cosmic status with high end feats involving stars or universes, but are ultimately only mid tier to high tier in actual combat.

Page 6 on the sign ups thread. I removed his limit remover and his clones are also limited to 5.

@emperorthanos- said:

Based on feats and portray? Yes. You've got even another Hell-Lord Asmodeus being defeated in his own realm by Ghost Rider(Not Zarathos) during the beginning of his career, who based on his standard levels at the time isn't above the limits as well.

You're right, but I also thought you guys would actually read the scan before jumping to such conclusions though...It says in there that Athera's sun is the embodiment of good and not an actual sun like ours. Tazza got defeated by Strange way back in Strange Tales and Wanda was still at her classic levels when Dormie made that statement IIRC(Around the 70's, I believe).

Don't know who Mundus is. But star stuff is outliers for the pokemon from what I have been told. So they would not be brought up in a cav. Kaguya creating a star is not really proven or clear. All we know is that there was sunlight in the realm. And she did say she could blow up the realm. So if someone were to bring that up and argue it then yes she would be over the limits.

The thing is said feats would not have been touched in a debate because they are high end. But the feat was brought up here. I wouldn't have said anything if the feat wasn't used.

@higherpower: Pretty sure he was

Just want to say it isn't palkia and dialga have created a universe in the anime(together) and been shown creating a galaxy by themselves in the games.

@andromeda101: Hey I need you to tell me straight up, no half-truths or weird reasonings. Without restrictions and at normal power levels, who is the strongest character you believe D’sparye could defeat in a random encounter

@higherpower: @emperorthanos-: Yes a I allowed Jin with nerfs. You can nerf SM. I’d suggest you stop talking about them though so I don’t change my mind and ban both characters.

So you are saying he could be as weak as Ghost Rider? Alright I take back what I said then.

From what your scan says, the sun is fueled by the good of the universe which is Dakhim. Basically it is powered by this Dakhim guy. Which means he has the power the fuel a sun and he was matched by your character. No where does it state that the sun is different from our own. It is just powered differently, but it behaves the same as our sun and I would assume has the same size. I wouldn't say losing to a Classic Strange is a bad thing and fair enough on Wanda I guess. But I wouldn't have known that from your post. So again just going of what was given.

If i'm being honest I would be fine if you were the ban everyone that can potentially be above th limits. Jin included.

My new hosting motto is " when in doubt, throw them out"

@darthjhawk: Alright. But without that level of DC/durability she's a lot weaker than high herald level.

Oh well, if we lose we lose.

@darthjhawk: You know if these guys really did sneak then they wouldn't tell you the truth. So you know, they say honestly is the best policy, but I think you should do some research and decide the verdict based on that. Maybe ask the other teams their's input on Jucas' post so they'll be unbiased. Idk.

@darthjhawk: He can defeat and be defeated by a lot of people with different power-sets depending on the circumstances though. I would say the most powerful foes D'Spayre can defeat at his normal levels(Based on his showings/portray) should likely be people such as Man-Thing and/or Jennifer Kale.

@emperorthanos-:

Don't know who Mundus is.

Wait, you've never played Devil May Cry? lol

Mundus is a hell lord that Dante beat him in combat. He created an entire universe, but his feats in actual combat are kind of pathetic in comparison. So are Dante and Mundus too high for this tourney?

Sometimes characters have conceptual abilities that don't match the levels of power they display in actual combat. MLP characters have moved celestial bodies before, so by your logic they are also above limits; when there is nothing to prove they can beat anyone here.

But I wouldn't have known that from your post. So again just going of what was given.

This is why kneejerk reactions are bad and I am honestly quite surprised at the way you are acting. I always considered you to be one of the more cool headed viners.

If you have an issue, then ask about it or bring it up in the CaV itself. Don't just declare things to be over limits to try and incite equally kneejerk reactions from the host and/or some lynch mob of thread readers. -_-

Slowly, your style is turning into SFW's "Deal with it, I'm tired of this shizz". Lol.

@andromeda101: Isn’t Man-Thing solidly above herald level?

*Insert man eating popcorn gif*

@mylittlefascist:

This is why kneejerk reactions are bad and I am honestly quite surprised at the way you are acting. I always considered you to be one of the more cool headed viners.

That's because I have never dealt with multiple characters in one team being over the limits. Or people giving only half the information for feat without the context behind it. Most of the tourneys I have participated in barely has much prep and have been straightforward. My Tourney is where you really see crazy stuff and I never participated in it properly. Also I have a lost a lot of patience over my time in cav. I don't have much anymore. The incident with Morlee is good example of that.

If you have an issue, then ask about it or bring it up in the CaV itself. Don't just declare things to be over limits to try and incite equally kneejerk reactions from the host and/or some lynch mob of thread readers. -_-

Well I don't need to ask about sinestro. I know him like the back of my hand. And so I brought it up because he is above the limits. There is no argument around it. And I shouldn't have to ask, you guys should be up front and clear about these feats. I'm not starting a lynch mob. I only began debating after your guys started. I simply stated they are clearly over the limits.

@emperorthanos-:

Well I don't need to ask about sinestro.

The argument regarding Sinestro was that he would go to retrieve Parallax with prep, much like how CIB is attempting to retrieve Amazo via prep. If you have context proving that such a thing is not possible, then argue it in the CaV.

I can't really defend his context, since if I'm being honest, Foxerdes hasn't really been communicating with our team all that well. =/

so I brought it up because he is above the limits.

But they aren't, they are using prep to amp their characters. If you have concerns then ask, don't publicly declare a feat (which wasn't even a feat, it was just showing conceptual status) to be over limits without knowing more context.

you guys should be up front and clear about these feats

Debates are supposed to be dynamic. Andromeda's post was already really really long. Most people don't explain every detail about every feat, unless specifically asked. That wasn't even in the actual arguments part of her post, it was placed in the mini-respect thread where she was just explaining details about her character.

You're confusing him with Swamp Thing.

@andromeda101: Wait, didn't Man Thing already fight him? IIRC he was burning DS who then teleported away.

@emperorthanos- said:

Belasco? He isn't as weak as GR like Asmodeus but his standard power-level still make D'Spayre's feat very within this limits. That's my point, some Hell-Lords aren't as powerful as people think. Besides, Belasco won the fight in the very next scan and I think people are forgetting this detail.

Now you're reaching it, friend. Let's take a look at this panel from my scan, for example:

It doesn't say the sun was fulled only and just by Dakhim himself, but how the same was an immense force of good that his death caused the sun to darken for the merest moment and in the time span of a single heartbeat. Even if was still a real sun and comparable in size to ours(Which I doubt it), it would still be a metaphysical feat that represents status and not something such as raw power. Let's keep in mind that I said Strange was at the beginning of his career when fought Tazza(During Strange Tales#144) and not at the peak of his power, in fact, Strange was even losing to people such as Loki in Strange Tales#123.

@darthjhawk said:

No.

Maybe a composite version, but that wasn't what I was referring to.

Yes, but Man-Thing usually defeats him with help from people such as Spidey and Cyclops. In a 1v1, D'Spayre was already proved to be superior.

@andromeda101: I would imagine Spidey and Cyclops to be complete non-factors, especially since it was classic. But if DS already beat Man Thing then I stand corrected. Also it doesn't help my case if Man Thing is better than him anyway, lol.

@mylittlefascist:

The argument regarding Sinestro was that he would go to retrieve Parallax with prep, much like how CIB is attempting to retrieve Amazo via prep. If you have context proving that such a thing is not possible, then argue it in the CaV.

Nope you didn't read what I said. And whoever is debating Parallax doesn't seem to understand the connection between Parallax and Sinestro. In the new 52 Sinestro took parallax during his fight against Volthoom in their fight early on in the new 52. Since then Parallax is in Sinestro and has been for the entirety of the New 52. If he was using Parallax prior to him being trapped inside Sinestro's body then he shouldn't have used feats that occurred after Sinestro has parallax inside him. You can't have it both ways. If he is using Sinestro at a certain point then don't use feats after that point.

Debates are supposed to be dynamic. Andromeda's post was already really really long. Most people don't explain every detail about every feat, unless specifically asked. That wasn't even in the actual arguments part of her post, it was placed in the mini-respect thread where she was just explaining details about her character.

A little context behind those feats isn't going to turn the post into a respect thread. And I don't care where they were, the fact is she presented them for the character.

@andromeda101: Which version were you referring to?

I think the logic was that if Sinestro is composite, then he can forcefully trap Parallax into his body and replicate those same feats... But like I said, these are debating points that should be discussed in the CaV itself. Not declared to be over limits, when it's clearly not true, as he's relying on prep to achieve these power levels.

A little context behind those feats isn't going to turn the post into a respect thread. And I don't care where they were, the fact is she presented them for the character.

No, but it's easy to overlook certain details when you don't view the feat as that important overall. Your reaction is the exact opposite of how you are supposed to analyze your opponent's post. When I see someone mention their character beat "so and so" with no detail as to how powerful that character is, I ask them to provide feats for the character they are scaling off of (assuming they had even drawn any sort of conclusive arguments from such an event in the first place).

I don't immediately assume that the feat is over limits, just because said character might share something in common with other characters who are over limits...

Case in point, pretty much anyone who has ever won a match against the Maker has done so by actually questioning the power levels of the versions of the characters the Maker has defeated.

@darthjhawk: Btw is there no prep limit? Can I just teleport the Infinity Gauntelt to me and use it because prep?

No reality warping.

@mylittlefascist: Yeah but you know what I mean

@andromeda101 said:

@emperorthanos- said:

So you are saying he could be as weak as Ghost Rider? Alright I take back what I said then.

From what your scan says, the sun is fueled by the good of the universe which is Dakhim. Basically it is powered by this Dakhim guy. Which means he has the power the fuel a sun and he was matched by your character. No where does it state that the sun is different from our own. It is just powered differently, but it behaves the same as our sun and I would assume has the same size. I wouldn't say losing to a Classic Strange is a bad thing and fair enough on Wanda I guess. But I wouldn't have known that from your post. So again just going of what was given.

Belasco? He isn't as weak as GR like Asmodeus but his standard power-level still make D'Spayre's feat very within this limits. That's my point, some Hell-Lords aren't as powerful as people think. Besides, Belasco won the fight in the very next scan and I think people are forgetting this detail.

Now you're reaching it, friend. Let's take a look at this panel from my scan, for example:

It doesn't say the sun was fulled only and just by Dakhim himself, but how the same was an immense force of good that his death caused the sun to darken for the merest moment and in the time span of a single heartbeat. Even if was still a real sun and comparable in size to ours(Which I doubt it), it would still be a metaphysical feat that represents status and not something such as raw power. Let's keep in mind that I said Strange was at the beginning of his career when fought Tazza(During Strange Tales#144) and not at the peak of his power, in fact, Strange was even losing to people such as Loki in Strange Tales#123.

Hmm alright fair enough. A little background on him in your intial post would have been nice though. Rather than just saying he is a hell lord

It said it was fueled by the good of the universe and you said he was the embodiment of the good of the universe. The fact that the sun blackened by that much suggest he contributed to a large portion of it's power. The star managed to find that power elsewhere fairly quickly but until then his good was powering up most of it. Why wouldn't it' be a real sun and comparable to the size of ours. I still don't think it is a low showing. Maybe just a showing of how powerful Dr Strange. Also does this mean Dormmamu being in awe of someone means nothing. In which case what was the purpose of posting it.

Then how do we decide which location parallax is in. This is something that can be debated so then it would up the host to decide the location or it would be his current location. You can't debate his location. Nor can I debate the version. Based of the feats he presented the majority of them are from Sinestro's solo in New 52 where he had Parallax inside of him. SInestro has so many apperances but he chose to use most of his feats from that particular run.

@emperorthanos-:

Then how do we decide which location parallax is in. This is something that can be debated

It's up to him to prove Parallax is where he claims to to be. I had hoped he would do so in his first post, but he has been busy with RL stuff. If after an actual discourse between the two of you, it becomes apparent that an official ruling "needs" to be made, then so be it.

This is debating 101... =/

@mylittlefascist: @emperorthanos-: okay so are you two done yet? Should I start my post?

@mylittlefascist: @emperorthanos-: I see the problem here, a clash of ideals. Voters vs Host. Skill vs fairness. I have noticed that ET likes the host deciding things that could be debated if it is important (for example in a case where something can be classified as amgic or something can be classified as a summon, ET would step in and make a verdict) but Zets, from my understanding, is a firm believer in the host only being there to implement already established rules that both debaters and the boters have access to, meaning if there is a vague topic he would rather debate it than get a ruling. Neither of you are wrong, just different perspectives. At least from what I can tell.

Yea, go ahead.