Cobra Kai Team VS MCU Black Widow

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mexcomics2078

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Strictly H2H

Team : Danny , Johnny , Kreese , Tori , Prime Miguel

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SmoothSanta

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Kreese solos

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gokuss4z

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Widow would kill all these fools

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SupremeGeneration

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Widow lol

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RiotGear

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Widow doesn't have a lot of pure hand to hand feats.

Even if we count melee combat though. Danny, Johnny, and Kreese should all be able to keep up on there own.

As a group with help from the students. Natasha gets overwhelmed fairly quickly.

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PurplehairedNi1

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Lol at the above I don't even think they can harm her at all

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AshConwell

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#7  Edited By AshConwell

Is post #5 really serious...

Anyway, Natasha stomps all these fools.

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JaylinFreeman

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#8  Edited By JaylinFreeman

Nat. Is more skilled than any of them (see her fights with Hawkeye, Yelena, Taskmaster, The Red Room Widows, etc) and has far better stats than any of them.

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BladeOfFury

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Team stomps, mismatch

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Jack_Hart

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#10  Edited By Jack_Hart

Nat stomps. This thread is a joke even by Black Widow and MCU lowballing standards.

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RiotGear

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@purplehairedni1:

We have seen Nat hurt by human tier opponents before. So I'm curious as to why you think they can't hurt her.

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PurplehairedNi1

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#12  Edited By PurplehairedNi1

@riotgear: Like when because characters like Hawkeye and Taskmaster actually had strength feats unlike these fodder

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RiotGear

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@ashconwell:

Yes it's serious. We haven't seen anything from Nat to put her in a different class as a fighter than the Miyagi-verse Sensei's.

What has she done that makes you think she can take all three, plus there students?

Infact what has she done that puts her above the adult fighters individually?

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AshConwell

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#14  Edited By AshConwell

@riotgear:

She fought Hawkeye, Taskmaster, Yelena, Winter Soldier, Crossbones, a van full of S.H.I.E.L.D agents and trained mercenaries in H2H.

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BladeOfFury

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Robby beat 8 Cobra Kai fighters without getting tagged once. Danny, Johnny and Kreese are much better than him, Miguel is similar, Tory not far behind. Collectively, this team would beat more than 30 guys.

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RiotGear

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@purplehairedni1:

What strength feats does Hawkeye have?

Nat was clearly feeling hits from Yelena and the other Widows. Even Dreykov was able to floor her in a few hits.

She severed a nerve and drew blood on her self with a headbutt.

Falling from objects and being thrown into things also causes her pain.

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Jack_Hart

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The Cobra Kai wank is ridiculous. We're talking about kids with 2 year old karate or less, and the best feats of the adults other than being better than these kids is beating up civilian bums that Nat could beat while tie to a chair.

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Jack_Hart

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#18  Edited By Jack_Hart

The Cobra Kai wank is ridiculous. We're talking about kids with 2 year old karate or less, and the best feats of the adults other than being better than these kids is beating up civilian bums that Nat could probably beat while tied to a chair.

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RiotGear

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#19  Edited By RiotGear

@ashconwell:

Most of those fights included weapon/gear/help.

Even if we count them.

She lost to Winter Soldier twice, once with help. The other with gear and the element of surprise.

Did nothing to Crossbones.

Granted the Miyagi-verse fighter aren't likely to do any better against super soldiers.

As the others what van full of SHIELD agents are we talking about?

She doesn't have a clean win over Hawkeye in a fight. For the most part they seemed pretty even.

Her and Yelena seemed to fight to a draw, but Nat didn't seem to be going as hard as her little sister.

Being at or slightly above the level of Hawkeye and Yelena makes her a good fighter, but neither of them have done anything in melee combat that should put them above Kreese, Lawrence, or LaRusso.

As for mercs and the like. First off she almost always relies heavily on gear and even ignoring that. The Sensei's (and the students for that matter) have also managed to fend off groups of trained/experienced fighters. Maybe not so much Tory, but the others.

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AshConwell

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#20  Edited By AshConwell

@riotgear:

Most of those fights included weapon/gear/help.

Nah, in all the fights I mentioned, she was unarmed or at least fought these characters unarmed for a majority of the fight.

She lost to Winter Soldier twice, once with help. The other with gear and the element of surprise.

She was still landing some hits and managed to outmaneuver him. Her downfall was that she wasn't able to hurt him.

Did nothing to Crossbones.

She was clearly outskilling Crossbones. Again, she couldn't hurt him due to his armor and fried nerves but she was outskilling him.

As the others what can fill of SHIELD agents are we talking about?

It was in What If...?

Loading Video...

The SHIELD agents are stated to be some of the most well trained proffesionals in the world.

She doesn't have a clean win over Hawkeye in a fight. For the most part they seemed pretty even.

Nah, she's definitely better than Hawkeye and I've went over this way to many times. She beat him when he was bloodlusted and fully armed while she was injured, not using her gear and not trying to kill him. As for the other times they fought, she always ends up gaining the upper hand. Not to talk about how she's outright stated to be a better fighter.

Being at or slightly above the level of Hawkeye and Yelena makes her a good fighter, but neither of them have done anything in melee combat that should put them above Kreese, Lawrence, or LaRusso.

Hawkeye was easily outmatching fully trained Samurai in their own craft, he dispatched large groups of Yakuzas and other gangs all over the world. Even as a kid, Yelena was considered to be one of the best child assassin in the world. Even one Widow was able to take on an extremis soldier and Natasha was taking on multiple of these peak human Widows at once consecutively. Natasha is considered to be one of the best fighters and assasin in the world(MCU). For most of her life, she was extensively trained in all sorts of martial arts that she mastered to near perfection such as Karate, Judo, Boxing, Teakwondo, Lucha-libre style wrestling, multiple styles of Kung-Fu, etc.

And then let's not forget about Natasha's insane durability or peak human stats. Or the fact that she managed to find a way to outskill Taskmaster.

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RiotGear

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@ashconwell:

Which fight with Winter Soldier you wanna look at the one where she ambushed him with a garrote and used a stun disc or the one where she was tag teaming him with Sharon Carter?

Also Buck is a skilled fighter, but Stark and background security guards were also slowing him down.

Was she out skilling him though. When he got tired over he got a hold of her with no issue and tossed her around.

Are we using alternate universe Widow in this. Does that mean she gets magic armor from Doctor Strange and Captain America's shield too? Would you prescribe the abilities of alligator Loki to main timeline Loki as well?

First fight with Hawkeye he was brainwashed and not fighting like himself and it only took a solid hit to bring him back to his senses. A hit that is unlikely to a score a win under normal circumstances.

Second fight. They were both holding back and were traded the dominate fight position back and forth. Until Wanda interrupted.

Third fight wasn't a straight up fight, but a who can jump off a cliff better competition. If you wanna claim she has is better at that than Hawkeye you've got strong evidence.

Not so much for who wins in a fight.

Point is even if she is better it's not by much. So using Hawkeye as a baseline of sorts still seems valid.

So Hawkeye fought human martial artists. Cool, but not outside of the abilities of the Miyagi-verse folks. Who you know do that all the time.

Kate Bishop landed hits on Yelena. The same Kate Bishop that struggled with the Track Suit Mafia.

Nat held off the other Widows with weapons. Sure she did some fighting hand to hand, but she used ranged weapons for a lot of it to.

Also just to clarify. I am not saying she couldn't beat the Sensei's just that they seem close enough to the same level. That 3 on one isn't fair. Nor for that matter is 2 on 1.

She may beat them individually, but it wouldn't be easy and I wouldn't bet on her to do it reliably.

Yes Natasha has a solid damage soak, but she can be hurt by humans and some of the Miyagi-verse fighters have some good striking feats for human level characters.

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RiotGear

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@jack_hart:

You wanna talk about experience the Sensei's have been doing martial arts at least as long as Widows been alive.

Also Kate Bishop landed blows on Yelena, who seemed to be a match for Nat, and Kate doesn't have much more experience than the Cobra Kai students.

To be clear though I don't think anybody is suggesting that Tory or Miguel could beat Widow on there own.

The adults have beat up martial artist, gangsters, soldier etc.

As in trained/experienced human level opponents. Also being better than the students means something Robby took down a group of trained martial artists with out them landing a blow. Johnny treated him like a joke.

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AshConwell

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#24  Edited By AshConwell

@riotgear:

Which fight with Winter Soldier you wanna look at the one where she ambushed him with a garrote and used a stun disc or the one where she was tag teaming him with Sharon Carter?

I was talking about the one with Sharon.

Was she out skilling him though. When he got tired over he got a hold of her with no issue and tossed her around.

She did. She was continuously tagging him and dodged a punch from him despite the fact that he was grabbing on her arm a large part of the fight and that they were on top of a tank (so she couldn't be as mobile). All he could do was eventually grab her hair and throw her inside of the tank when she was caught of guard.

Are we using alternate universe Widow in this. Does that mean she gets magic armor from Doctor Strange and Captain America's shield too? Would you prescribe the abilities of alligator Loki to main timeline Loki as well?

Yes, we absolutely can scale main timeline Nat to her. This is just regular Black Widow from Iron Man 2. She doesn't have any kind of amp. The fact that she's able to fight these Shield agents is no surprise when she's the most skilled Shield member we know of canonically (Idk if Agents of Shield is canon to the MCU or not).

First fight with Hawkeye he was brainwashed and not fighting like himself and it only took a solid hit to bring him back to his senses. A hit that is unlikely to a score a win under normal circumstances.

It took her multiple hits to bring him down. Also, "he wasn't fighting like himself" based on what? Anyway, none of that takes away the fact that she wasn't using gear, was injured, was traumatized and wasn't going for the kill while Hawkeye was trying to kill her and was fully armed. Natasha is solidly above Clint. He had every advantage and still lost.

Second fight. They were both holding back and were traded the dominate fight position back and forth. Until Wanda interrupted.

Natasha gained the upperhand again and Clint got saved by Wanda. Anyway, is this a Black Widow vs Hawkeye thread?

Kate Bishop landed hits on Yelena. The same Kate Bishop that struggled with the Track Suit Mafia.

Yelena obviously wasn't going all out against Kate. She said herself that if she was serious against Kate, she'd easily beat her and Kate knew that very well.

Kate landed ONE hit against a holding back Yelena in the chase fight and during the fight, Kate was mostly just chasing after Yelena, trying to throw stuff at her or getting thrown around by her. Either way, it just seems like a finale boost that tehy gave Kate. Or are you trying to suggest that Yelena would struggle against the tracksuit mafia now lmao. Scaling from Natasha who's able to fight multiple Widows and Shield agents at once puts Yelena in a completely different league than Kate. We even see that during the rooftop fight scene where Yelena easily throws Kate off of the roof or when Clint was carrying Kate to a backstreet like a child.

Nat held off the other Widows with weapons. Sure she did some fighting hand to hand, but she used ranged weapons for a lot of it to.

Yeah and like you said, she did some fighting hand to hand at some points and was still dodging and countering their attacks. Plus, the Widows had weapons too.

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frozen

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#25 frozen  Moderator

This is a rather ridiculous battle. Widow stomps.

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Jack_Hart

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@riotgear: The Widows were raised and live in life-threatening situations against far greater threats on a daily basis, that's not comparable to anything the adults have been through except Kreese, Silver, and Miyagi who had military experience, and they haven't done that in decades.

Kate was merely a nuisance to Yelena, the former getting her licks in when the latter barely wanted anything to do with her doesn't mean much.

The adults didn't beat anyone Nat couldn't have beaten with comparable or greater ease.

Robby beating down the Cobra Kai kids weren't that impressive. Kyler and others have only recently picked up karate, and even Tory has less training than Robby.

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hellothere5432

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Nat. Decent fight

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RiotGear

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@ashconwell:

So Nat landed hits on Winter Soldier. When she had help. Okay. Not sure if that's the skill feat you think it is.

Crossbones didn't even bother to let go over her for the first part of the fight. He could have tossed her aside if he'd chosen to. Instead he sat there and ate a couple shots. When he started to actually fight back he got a hold of her again and tossed her aside.

However let's assume she is marginally more skilled than Rumlow. While Rumlow is a skilled fighter. What do you think he's done that puts him above the Sensei's skill wise?

You are fine using What If, an expressly alternate timeline, but question using Agents of SHIELD?

Again do you think Alligator Loki has the same stats and abilities as main timeline Loki?

Different universe. That isn't particularly consistent with the main one.

Hawkeye was brainwashed as in literally not in control of himself.

On top of that he was fighting way more aggressively than normal. No quips, no creating distance etc.

In other words not behaving like himself on multiple fronts. Ignoring the whole trying to kill his friends thing.

When she bounces his head of the railings it seems to jolt him back normal a little, she uses the distraction to hit him again.

The amount of damage he's taken elsewhere in the franchise suggest that the effects of breaking the brainwashing had an effect on how quick he went down.

Second fight. Wanda broke that fight up well before a winner was decided, but once again they were pretty evenly trading holds.

Kate got a hold Yelena more than once.

I'm not scaling Yelena to Kate what I'm saying is somebody like Kate. Who struggles with groups of "fodder" can land blows on Yelena.

Well we are on the subject. Yelena was also effectively stalled by Maya. The same Maya that didn't immediately drop Kate. The same Kate that struggled with the track Suit Mafia.

Yelena also needed help against a single unsuspecting ex-Widow.

Yelena is being used to establish Nat's abilities in thread. So scaling her to Nat to prove how good Nat is doesn't work. It's circular logic.

We have to establish what she or anybody else can do outside of there fights with Nat. For there fights with Nat to have any meaning.

Nat can fight other trained/experienced fighters in groups. Cool. Granted the fight with the Widows was largely accomplished with weapons (including projectiles). We'll use it though. Not all of it mind you, but sure we can use the bits of it that were up close and personal.

However groups of trained/experienced fighters is something Miyagi-verse fighters can deal with too.

I'm not going to compare the teen students in Cobra Kai to Widows, but I will say that Robby clearing a room of the with out getting hit. Means that Lawrence treating Robby like a joke means something.

Teen Chozen was the top student at a dojo that trained military police. He was able to take out four black belts at once. LaRusso was still able to beat him. As a teenager.

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AshConwell

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#30  Edited By AshConwell

@riotgear:

So Nat landed hits on Winter Soldier. When she had help. Okay. Not sure if that's the skill feat you think it is.

When Natasha landed these hits, Sharon wasn't landing hits at the same time lol. She was standing aside to let Widow come in the fight.

Crossbones didn't even bother to let go over her for the first part of the fight. He could have tossed her aside if he'd chosen to. Instead he sat there and ate a couple shots. When he started to actually fight back he got a hold of her again and tossed her aside.

However let's assume she is marginally more skilled than Rumlow. While Rumlow is a skilled fighter. What do you think he's done that puts him above the Sensei's skill wise?

He didn't "sat there" he blocked one of her hits and tried to attack her too.

Also, Crossbone was fighting some Shield agents, fighting against Cap and is considered to be one of Hydra's top agents.

You are fine using What If, an expressly alternate timeline, but question using Agents of SHIELD?

Again do you think Alligator Loki has the same stats and abilities as main timeline Loki?

Yeah, cause I don't know anything about Agents of Shield? Lmao.

That's literally a false equivalency. One is an alligator while the other has human proportions.

It's Iron Man 2 Black Widow and beating these Shield agents isn't something outside of main-timeline Black Widow's capacity.

Hawkeye was brainwashed as in literally not in control of himself.

On top of that he was fighting way more aggressively than normal. No quips, no creating distance etc.

In other words not behaving like himself on multiple fronts. Ignoring the whole trying to kill his friends thing.

How does that prove that he becomes a less threatening fighter. By being more agressive and having no quips, that just means he was bloodlusted which should still make him seriously dangerous. Especially when Nat is literally injured, traumatized, not trying to kill him and not using her gear which would have been a good way to end the fight quickly but it seems she knew she didn't need it to Ko Clint.

So I guess he "wasn't behaving like himself" when he fought Black Panther or Yelena because "he didn't create distance" lol.

When she bounces his head of the railings it seems to jolt him back normal a little, she uses the distraction to hit him again.

The amount of damage he's taken elsewhere in the franchise suggest that the effects of breaking the brainwashing had an effect on how quick he went down.

Doesn't matter. There's nothing suggesting the mind control makes him less durable. Also, pls feel free to bring up "that ammount of damage he's taken elsewhere in the franchise suggesting that the effects of breaking the brainwashing had an effect on how quick he went down".

Kate got a hold Yelena more than once.

I'm not scaling Yelena to Kate what I'm saying is somebody like Kate. Who struggles with groups of "fodder" can land blows on Yelena.

Well we are on the subject. Yelena was also effectively stalled by Maya. The same Maya that didn't immediately drop Kate. The same Kate that struggled with the track Suit Mafia.

What, when she slapped her? Again, Yelena wasn't serious. Right before that, Yelena was toying with Kate and redirecting her movements.

So esentially, you're literally just trying to say that Nat struggles with people who struggle with fodder lmao. (So what your saying is that Kate who struggles with groups of fodder can land blows on Yelena and Yelena who can land blows on Natasha gets tagged by someone who stuggles with fodder so Natasha struggles against people who struggle with fodder...)

Well we are on the subject. Yelena was also effectively stalled by Maya. The same Maya that didn't immediately drop Kate. The same Kate that struggled with the track Suit Mafia.

No, Maya never did anything against Yelena. The only time they fought was on the rooftop and what happend is that Maya just got tossed aside by Yelena's widow bites and got punched by Yelena while she was holding Clint. Maya never even landed a hit on Yelena.

Yelena also needed help against a single unsuspecting ex-Widow.

So possibly just a feat for that Widow since she doesn't have any anti-feat. Anyway, it's not like Yelena didn't end up winning against that Widow.

Yelena is being used to establish Nat's abilities in thread. So scaling her to Nat to prove how good Nat is doesn't work. It's circular logic.

We have to establish what she or anybody else can do outside of there fights with Nat. For there fights with Nat to have any meaning.

No because even if she didn't win, Yelena was able to handle her own against Natasha and that's a feat. Otherwise, by that logic, so many characters are just featless.

-

Natasha's too strong, skilled, fast, agile, resilient and durable to lose this. She wins.

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AngelJax

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People just legitimately hate Nat

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cobrakai1

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Widow neg diffs

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MBCB2001

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Natasha stomps hard

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kfost_5

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@riotgear: yea let’s not mention how yelena was holding back on yelena big time if yelena wanted to kill Kate she could have just like in their first encounter when she outskilled her and threw her off of a roof but tied her string to a rope

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Xverify_

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#35  Edited By Xverify_

Team

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kfost_5

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nassergrant19

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@angeljax said:

People just legitimately hate Nat

How so?

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RiotGear

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#38  Edited By RiotGear

@ashconwell:

Sharon created the opening that Widow used to start her attack and they were hitting from both sides. No we never see them land hits at exactly the same time, but the do land one after the other.

This also happens moments after Stark hits Bucky with some sort of sonic/repulsor/stun thing.

Also shortly before this a couple of random agents held off Bucky for almost as long as Widow and Sharon.

Also, also. Even if Widow and Sharon weren't hitting at the same time Buck still had to split his focus and pay attention to both.

Considering how strong Crossbones was you don't think he could have tossed her sideways off the truck while he had ahold of her?

Instead he held on.

As for landing blows she attempted 6-7 attacks, depending on how you want to count her flailing about while he was dragging her around. She landed 5-6 of them. Again depending on how you want to count pounding on his outstretched arm, that he wasn't trying to protect. Rather eating hits like bruiser, cause he knew he could.

Compare the way he moves in this fight, to the one with Cap.

As far as I remember Rumlow fought Sam, had a brief scuffle with Sharon, and did surprisingly well against Cap.

Again though he was fighting different before he was an armored giant. Fighting somebody he didn't think could hurt him.

Not to go all skill scale chain again, but if we scale him to Sharon or Sam. It still doesn't put him out the realm of the Cobra Kai fighters.

Regardless she connects 80-85% of the time. By comparison Rumlow attempts four offensive moves and connects with 3. For a hit ratio of 75% or so.

Point is he is not only, not taking it particularly seriously, but even if we assume he is doing his best. She is not drastically out skilling him.

The point of divergence for that episode was well before IM2 Hope was a SHIELD Agent, Hank was back to using Pym Particles on the regular. We have no idea the butterflies. Any of these events caused.

If she has a comparable main timeline feat. By all means present it.

Bottom line is Hawkeye wasn't in control of himself. Wasn't acting like himself. Wasn't really fighting like himself.

We can quibble over whether that should make him more or less dangerous, but it's kinda moot.

If you wanna go down that road. I'll point out that it's often beneficial in a fight to keep your head and stay calm.

He tried to keep distance with Panther first with his bow, than with his staff. With Yelena he was trying to get close to unmask her, to see who she was.

Look all that aside. The lack of attempted banter and trying to kill his bestie means he wasn't acting like himself.

Seriously he was literally brainwashed.

I wasn't saying mind control makes him less durable rather I was saying that the jolt to the head. Started to snap him out of the mind control and he was therefore disoriented and no longer looking to fight.

As for similar damage with out going down he took shots to the head from Black Panther and was still standing. Do you think Widow hits as hard as Panther?

Also Maya kicked hard enough in the head to send him sprawling backwards and did so with her prosthetic leg.

He got back up. In other words, yes mind control or having it broken did seem to have an effect on his will to fight.

Getting hit by people that struggle with groups of fodder is not, the same as struggling with fodder.

Kate is above your average mook, Yelena is comfortably above Kate. Yelena is at around Nat's level.

The problem is we don't have good example of what Nat herself can do against fodder unarmed or even whare she combats groups of fodder with conventional-ish melee weapons.

So we end up scaling off the people in her circle that have.

Your right about Maya and Yelena, I thought there was a little more to it, but nope.

We can still go from Maya's performance against Hawkeye and Kate.

Sure we could say it's a feat for the Widow, but than we are stuck doing the same every time a no name Merc, thug etc lands a blow.

Not saying it's the wrong approach per SE, just that it can lead to problems of it own.

Look we are trying to establish Nat's ability level. To do that we compare her to people she has fought.

Those fights have meaning based on what her opponents can do/can be assumed to be capable of through intent.

Saying we know Nat is skilled because she fought Yelena and we know Yelena is skilled because she fought Nat.

Doesn't work, because we don't have a baseline for either character. It's circular.

Sure it's not entirely meaningless. On it's own. Because we have in universe accolades for Yelena, but we also have feats for Yelena now. Outside of that fight, why wouldn't we use them.

And it's better to use those to establish Nat's abilities than essentially saying Nat is skilled because she fought somebody as skilled as her and we know that person had to be skilled because she fought Nat.

Let's start with something basic. Do we have any fights from the main timeline where Nat takes down a group of fodder with out weapons?

Not saying she can't. Just curious what you'd point too.

If you want we can use portions of fights and if you need to extend out to the use of non electrified weapons.

The reason I am asking is so we have a starting point for comparing her performance vs those of the Miyagi-verse fighters.

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@kfost_5:

The fact that Yelena was holding back. Doesn't significantly impact the larger point I was making.

Still we also know what it looks like when the Miyagi-verse

Sensei's hold back against top tier youth martial artists.

The results are similar enough.

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AshConwell

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#40  Edited By AshConwell

@riotgear:

God, where to even start...

1. Sharon manadged to land a hit on Bucky right after Widow landed hits on Bucky but it wasn't the case for Nat. Nat came running straight towards Bucky and while she was hitting him, Sharon was standing aside.

No Caption Provided

Clearly, Natasha, Sharon and Bucky are more skilled than these Shield agents. There just needed to be something in the movie that would give Tony, Nat and Sharon the time to reach Bucky.

2. Considering Natasha's skillset, you don't think she could have leg flipped Crossbones sideways off the truck while he had ahold of her?

If I was to guess why he held on, maybe it's because he was trying to take her out. I doubt just throwing her on the ground would have been enough.

He was trying to take her out and she had no problem dodging his attack and countering him with a bunch of attacks even despite not being as mobile.

Then, explain to me why Bucky was blocking Sharon's hits when he knows Sharon can't hurt him? Obviously he was trying to take her out. He wasn't just letting himself get hit.

4. Natasha was taking on mutiple Widows at the same time while holding back, fought fully armored and armed mercenaries and assassins and again, fought Clint who's able to kill many Yakuzas and even take on outriders while in a tight space. How is the Shield agent feat beyond her abilities when she's canonically the most skilled Shield agent we know of?

5. Clint was just bloodlusted lol. It's not like he got less skilled. It's basically the same as when he was killing those Yakuzas.

Fine, then I guess Widow "wasn't being like herself" either because she was traumatized and injured before the fight. And Clint did use his bow and arrows when there was distance between him and Nat during the fight.

Sure keeping your cool can be beneficial but it's not like being bloodlusted can't also make someone much more dangerous. Also, Clint being bloodlusted and using all of his gear against a holding back, injured Black Widow who's not using her gear (which could be a faster way to end the fight) definitely makes him dangerous.

6. Exactly, you're just proving my point. Clint can fight in H2H. He did it with T'Challa and Yelena.

7. No, I'm not saying that Nat is stronger than Panther. T'Challa had Clint on the ground with one simple hit. Meanwhile, it took Nat many hits before she could knock him out.

Natasha went into this fight knowing that she probably wouldn't need her gear to knock out or incap Clint. She never used her Widow bites. I don't even get what you're trying to point out anymore. That Natasha wouldn't be able to knock out Clint if he wasn't brainwashed and that he would win against her?

8. Sure we could say it's a feat for the Widow, but than we are stuck doing the same every time a no name Merc, thug etc lands a blow.

Not saying it's the wrong approach per SE, just that it can lead to problems of it own.

Look we are trying to establish Nat's ability level. To do that we compare her to people she has fought.

Those fights have meaning based on what her opponents can do/can be assumed to be capable of through intent.

Saying we know Nat is skilled because she fought Yelena and we know Yelena is skilled because she fought Nat.

Doesn't work, because we don't have a baseline for either character. It's circular.

Sure it's not entirely meaningless. On it's own. Because we have in universe accolades for Yelena, but we also have feats for Yelena now. Outside of that fight, why wouldn't we use them.

And it's better to use those to establish Nat's abilities than essentially saying Nat is skilled because she fought somebody as skilled as her and we know that person had to be skilled because she fought Nat.

You said it yourself. Natasha taking on Yelena was impressive due to her in-universe accolades. And if someone who doesn't have anti-feats manages to hold their own against Nat, then clearly that's still a good feat for them since Natasha has both some great in-universe accolades and feats.

9. Let's start with something basic. Do we have any fights from the main timeline where Nat takes down a group of fodder with out weapons?

Clearly we do 💀. Being ambushed by fully armed assassins while not wearing any clothes and being completely unarmed or beating up Crossbone's mercenaries who were fully armored and armed for exemple. Hell, even her room of Widow feat still applies. If Nat and the Widows were all unarmed, Nat would still be able to take on multiple of them at a time just like she did in the actual fight scene when they were all armed.

I agree. Most of her other fodder feats are with gear but it's because she usually takes on superhuman aliens or robots who she can't hurt with her stats. These are still some good CQC and H2H feats tho.

Meanwhile what did literal high school students like Robby, and Tori do to even be close to fair against Nat. Robby took on 8 other students who probably only have like a few years of training just like him? And same with the Senseis. They beat up some random civilans, thugs and soldiers lol.

10. Tell me. Do you think the senseis can kill whole gangs of armed Yakuzas, fight against Extremis soldiers, fight against Black Panther for even just 40 seconds and get him in a hold, take on multiple Widows at once while holding back, kill outriders while in tight spaces or outskill Taskmaster?

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nassergrant19

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Widow neg diffs

@frozen said:

This is a rather ridiculous battle. Widow stomps.

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RiotGear

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@ashconwell:

God, where to even start...

I'd suggest with looking at the evidence and than applying logic and reason.

On the other hand. You can just, well lets see...

1. Sharon manadged to land a hit on Bucky right after Widow landed hits on Bucky but it wasn't the case for Nat. Nat came running straight towards Bucky and while she was hitting him, Sharon was standing aside.

No Caption Provided

Clearly, Natasha, Sharon and Bucky are more skilled than these Shield agents. There just needed to be something in the movie that would give Tony, Nat and Sharon the time to reach Bucky.

Well that's some clever editing. You chopped off the beginning where Sharon attacks and its that attack and counter that creates the opening that Nat is exploiting here. You also cut right before Sharon threw a kick

Those agent stalled Bucky for about 15 seconds before being rescued by Tony. Sharon and Nat stalled him for about 17 seconds before being rescued by T'Challa.

2. Considering Natasha's skillset, you don't think she could have leg flipped Crossbones sideways off the truck while he had ahold of her?

If I was to guess why he held on, maybe it's because he was trying to take her out. I doubt just throwing her on the ground would have been enough.

He was trying to take her out and she had no problem dodging his attack and countering him with a bunch of attacks even despite not being as mobile.

Then, explain to me why Bucky was blocking Sharon's hits when he knows Sharon can't hurt him? Obviously he was trying to take her out. He wasn't just letting himself get hit.

To leg flip him, she'd have had to pull of a series of moves. That is a far cry from Crossbones who would have had to simply twitch his wrist to the left and she'd be out of his way.

Fair point though about her coming back from being tossed aside. However what it means is you are admitting that he had immediate options for attack that he chose not use for situational reasons.

Instead like I said he chose to soak the hits while he moved in because he knew he could. Remember the fight ended with him laughing at her for trying things he knew wouldn't work.

Once again even if we ( wrongly ) assume he was at his best fighting all out, the hit ratios of the two suggest rough parity in skill. With a slight ( though statistically negligible ) edge to Widow.

Bucky or rather Winter Soldier was a killer, looking to escape. He was clearing taking the fight much more seriously.

4. Natasha was taking on mutiple Widows at the same time while holding back, fought fully armored and armed mercenaries and assassins and again, fought Clint who's able to kill many Yakuzas and even take on outriders while in a tight space. How is the Shield agent feat beyond her abilities when she's canonically the most skilled Shield agent we know of?

She fought Widows with weapons, when more than a couple got in melee range, she went down fairly quick. Again those fights/wins tended to rely heavily on weapons/gear. Widow bites, guns etc. Its beyond her main timeline feats because she doesn't have an example in the main timeline of beating multiple spec ops personal unarmed in a confined space. I she does post, we'll discuss it.

Truth is I doubt you'd be using it if you had an example from the main timeline. Frankly though even if it matched something from the movies. It wouldn't matter, because it's from an entirely different timeline, with a number of difference and once again applies no more than alligator Loki.

When did they say she was the most skilled SHIELD agent, even if they did. Can we be sure they are talking about combat prowess and not subterfuge/espionage, general agenting?

5. Clint was just bloodlusted lol. It's not like he got less skilled. It's basically the same as when he was killing those Yakuzas.

Fine, then I guess Widow "wasn't being like herself" either because she was traumatized and injured before the fight. And Clint did use his bow and arrows when there was distance between him and Nat during the fight.

Sure keeping your cool can be beneficial but it's not like being bloodlusted can't also make someone much more dangerous. Also, Clint being bloodlusted and using all of his gear against a holding back, injured Black Widow who's not using her gear (which could be a faster way to end the fight) definitely makes him dangerous.

Call it bloodlusted, call it what ever you want, bottom line is regardless of how you spin it. Hawkeye was not behaving like himself.

If you want to say Widow wasn't 100%, that's fair. It just further proves. Using this fight is not entirely straight forward.

Also yes being overly aggressive can and does cause people to make mistakes they other wise wouldn't.

6. Exactly, you're just proving my point. Clint can fight in H2H. He did it with T'Challa and Yelena.

I think your confused. I never said Clint couldn't fight H2H. If anything you are suggesting he is less skilled than I am.

7. No, I'm not saying that Nat is stronger than Panther. T'Challa had Clint on the ground with one simple hit. Meanwhile, it took Nat many hits before she could knock him out.

Natasha went into this fight knowing that she probably wouldn't need her gear to knock out or incap Clint. She never used her Widow bites. I don't even get what you're trying to point out anymore. That Natasha wouldn't be able to knock out Clint if he wasn't brainwashed and that he would win against her?

We see Black Panther hit him twice, though we do not see the rest of the fight. He is still moving on the ground when Panther runs away. Widow bangs his head off a rail, seemingly breaking the mind control a little, he stops fighting and she hits him again and he goes out. If he relaxes and stops fighting it explains why Widow's hits were more effective than T'Challa's.

8.You said it yourself. Natasha taking on Yelena was impressive due to her in-universe accolades. And if someone who doesn't have anti-feats manages to hold their own against Nat, then clearly that's still a good feat for them since Natasha has both some great in-universe accolades and feats.

If all we had was accolades, it would end there, but we have actual feats. so we should use them.

Larger issue though. Is your circular scaling.

Also you realize those background agents you dismissed off hand earlier have no ant-feats. Right?

9.Clearly we do 💀. Being ambushed by fully armed assassins while not wearing any clothes and being completely unarmed or beating up Crossbone's mercenaries who were fully armored and armed for exemple. Hell, even her room of Widow feat still applies. If Nat and the Widows were all unarmed, Nat would still be able to take on multiple of them at a time just like she did in the actual fight scene when they were all armed.

I agree. Most of her other fodder feats are with gear but it's because she usually takes on superhuman aliens or robots who she can't hurt with her stats. These are still some good CQC and H2H feats tho.

Meanwhile what did literal high school students like Robby, and Tori do to even be close to fair against Nat. Robby took on 8 other students who probably only have like a few years of training just like him? And same with the Senseis. They beat up some random civilans, thugs and soldiers lol.

I'm guessing the no clothes fight is from the Black Widow tie in comic. I've seen some scan not the whole fight, but it looks like she took on three assassins. This is for sure seems like a good skill feat, but I haven't been able to find the entire fight and the canonicty of the comics is iffy.

Half of Crossbones mercs were taken out with weapons. That said she did fight a handful in H2H/melee. It was about 5-6 and they had armor and guns. Though they mostly rushed to melee range even though they had guns. Instead using there guns as clubs. Widow also used there guns as clubs.

Still remember these are modern soldier types. There training and experience is not focused on H2H combat. Most modern militaries have very brief self defense courses and that's it and less than a quarter of modern soldier report engaging in H2H combat and that includes detaining prisoners and the like.

Now lets establish something before a go further the nature of the Miyagi-verse means that the characters improve as the story goes on and they train. So unlike Widow where there is no indication that her skill improve in any substantial way over the course of the films.

Point is to some degree we can scale Miyagi-verse fighters off themselves, with out it being circular.

That out of the way. The Cobra Kai kids have no issue dropping/manhandling your average adult. Tory messes up her landlord, a random Cobra Kai drops a teacher in the school fight with not issue, and Robby drops his Mom's boyfriend with no issue.

Lets move this baseline up though. Your contention is because they haven't been training long they can't be skilled. In universe though we see multiple Miyagi-Do/Eagle Fang/Cobra Kai students who make it to the championships with a few months of training. This indicates that there training methods are more effective than most.

We also see this in season 1. Where Robby after a handful of lessons with Daniel is able to hold his own against 2 street punks. Criminals with a back ground in mugging and physical violence. He doesn't win the fight by combative means, but he is able to lead them into a trap while fighting both of them. Its clear that he could have taken either one on one and he achieved a sort of victory against 2.

It may not be perfect scaling, but all this would indicate that your average Cobra Kai student even with limited training could beat 1-2 street thugs. Lets call it 1.5 that means when Robby went through something like 8 Cobra Kai students. He was basically taking out the rough equivalent of a 12 person gang of street fighters with some experience. He did this with out getting tagged. In other words easily.

Mind you some of the students present would make it to the championships of the All Valley. So they are probably even better than Robby was when he faced the thugs.

By comparison Johnny treated Robby like a joke.

Even if we ignore the scaling to street thugs and the like. On paper Cobra Kai students regularly train martial arts where as the mercs probably don't.

Similarly the hockey team that Daniel took out was wearing protective gear, armed with clubbing weapons, and probably engaged in physical confrontations more often the mercs armed with guns.

So Widow's opponents were armored and used weapons as clubs, but Robby took out more opponents and said opponents training was focused on H2H combat.

However if you believe normal soldiers are super good at hand to hand combat. Karate Kid 2 Chozen was the top student in his dojo. A dojo that trained the U.S Military. Young Chozen took out 4 black belts from said school, teen Daniel took out and armed Chozen trying to kill him.

10. Tell me. Do you think the senseis can kill whole gangs of armed Yakuzas, fight against Extremis soldiers, fight against Black Panther for even just 40 seconds and get him in a hold, take on multiple Widows at once while holding back, kill outriders while in tight spaces or outskill Taskmaster?

Considering Robby can take out groups of trained martial artist and Johnny and Daniel have taken out armed gangsters before, yeah I figure they can take out groups of armed martial artists. Granted they don't normally fight to the death.

None of the characters involved fought an Extremis soldier. Also the Extremis soldier in Shang-Chi was comparatively not explode-y when compared to those in Iron-Man 3. So it's possible that it's of a different kind or de-powered, so as not to explode.

Black Panther was slowed down by two security guards in the casino fight and given the similar performances against groups of comparative fodder. Yes I'd figure somebody like Daniel could do as well as Hawkeye, even more so if he was armed.

Back ground Wakandan soldiers also took down Outriders. Granted it was in the open, but yes give the Sensei's a sword that can one shot Outriders and I see no reason why they couldn't.

Most the Widows were taken out with weapons ranged and electrified. The few she took on together up close put her down, until she was saved by Yelena.

Widow beat Taskmaster with the antidote, not H2H.

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AshConwell

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#43  Edited By AshConwell

@riotgear:

Well that's some clever editing. You chopped off the beginning where Sharon attacks and its that attack and counter that creates the opening that Nat is exploiting here. You also cut right before Sharon threw a kick

I didn't need to show Sharon's first attack because it wasn't Bucky getting hit by Sharon that gave Natasha "an opening". It was him countering, which is literally shown in the gif (and it technically didn't even give her "an opening"). Nat was just running straight towards him. trying to hit someone else doesn't take away from the fact that the other opponent was right in front of him, completely in the open, running straight towards him.

Sharon's last kick didn't need to be included in the gif because I'm talking about Widow landing hits and that's what I'm trying to show. Not Sharon's last hit which she managed to land due to Widow. It's irrelevent.

Those agent stalled Bucky for about 15 seconds before being rescued by Tony. Sharon and Nat stalled him for about 17 seconds before being rescued by T'Challa.

Yeah, and Natasha, Sharon and Bucky are still >>>> these Shield agents. We already know, these three are much more skilled than random Shield agents. Clearly, the movie needed something to slow down Bucky so the others could reach him.

To leg flip him, she'd have had to pull of a series of moves. That is a far cry from Crossbones who would have had to simply twitch his wrist to the left and she'd be out of his way.

Fair point though about her coming back from being tossed aside. However what it means is you are admitting that he had immediate options for attack that he chose not use for situational reasons.

Instead like I said he chose to soak the hits while he moved in because he knew he could. Remember the fight ended with him laughing at her for trying things he knew wouldn't work.

Fair.

Once again even if we ( wrongly ) assume he was at his best fighting all out, the hit ratios of the two suggest rough parity in skill. With a slight ( though statistically negligible ) edge to Widow.

Bucky or rather Winter Soldier was a killer, looking to escape. He was clearing taking the fight much more seriously.

I don't see how he didn't take the fight seriously tho. He's a killer too and overall, he was still trying to take her out. That's why he pulled her towards him, tried to hit her and threw her in the tank with a grenade. Hell, some deleted footage shows that he even hits her with his piston punch when she was caught off guard before he threw her inside the tank (although she tanks the hit, which is not surprising given all the crazier stuff she has survived).

She fought Widows with weapons, when more than a couple got in melee range, she went down fairly quick. Again those fights/wins tended to rely heavily on weapons/gear. Widow bites, guns etc. Its beyond her main timeline feats because she doesn't have an example in the main timeline of beating multiple spec ops personal unarmed in a confined space. I she does post, we'll discuss it.

You ignored what I said. If Nat and the Widows were all unarmed, Nat would still be able to take on multiple of them at a time just like she did in the actual fight scene when they were all armed. And even then, her dodging, attacking and countering the Widows attacks still demands a level of H2H skill, speed and strength that still aplies in unarmed H2H combat. Not to forget some short unarmed exchanges or attacks that she landed without using her weapons.

Call it bloodlusted, call it what ever you want, bottom line is regardless of how you spin it. Hawkeye was not behaving like himself.

If you want to say Widow wasn't 100%, that's fair. It just further proves. Using this fight is not entirely straight forward.

Also yes being overly aggressive can and does cause people to make mistakes they other wise wouldn't.

I guess he wasn't behaving like himself when he was fighting these Yakuzas then.

C'mon now, him being more willing to kill doesn't make him less skilled. You're acting as if he was being overly agressive and mindless. He clearly wasn't. He was still calm, being tactical and trying to exploit situations like managing to sense Natasha sneaking behind him, using his arrows when there was some distance between them (or even up close) or pulling on her hair to try to stab her.

Natasha had so much more disadvantages than Clint and yet still won. She was injured, traumatized and wasn't using her gear.

We see Black Panther hit him twice, though we do not see the rest of the fight. He is still moving on the ground when Panther runs away. Widow bangs his head off a rail, seemingly breaking the mind control a little, he stops fighting and she hits him again and he goes out. If he relaxes and stops fighting it explains why Widow's hits were more effective than T'Challa's.

You're right about Panther hitting him two more times. I forgot so sorry, that's a mistake on my part. Anyway, we saw the Widows managed to take Nat out (tho they didn't manage to knock her out). She was on the ground crawling and out of energy after taking a few hits from them and being thrown on a table. Yet, she has consitently tanked and gotten up from waaay worst than her fight with the Widows or Black Panther's kicks. So Natasha being able to knock out Clint that quickly might be iffy but overall, clearly they were showing that Natasha is the superior fighter as they showed her beating Clint (And the same goes for the Widows. They wanted to show that even if Natasha is the best Widow and is able to take on multiple at a time for a short period, she can't win against all of the Red Room because those Widows are strong). And, I mean, it's not like Clint was going to knock her out plus she had her Widow bites for an easy Ko.

If all we had was accolades, it would end there, but we have actual feats. so we should use them.

Larger issue though. Is your circular scaling.

I didn't say we can't use Yelena's other feats. I was saying that because, back when the Black Widow movie first came out, Yelena only had the fight with Natasha and her in-universe accolades to show where she stands as a fighter. But I mean, even after her feats from Hawkeye, what we know is that she's still below Natasha.

I was mentionning Natasha taking on Yelena because right now, the point was to establish Natasha's skill. Not Yelena. I wasn't saying that Natasha taking on Yelena is impressive because Yelena can take on Natasha herself. I was saying that Natasha taking on Yelena was impressive because of Yelena's in-universe accolades (which is mostly all she had when Black Widow first came out).

But circular scaling can still be used. If I'm on a thread about Yelena vs another character, I can absolutely bring up Yelena holding her own against Natasha as a feat since Natasha could have feats that put her above the persone Yelena has been pitted against.

I'm guessing the no clothes fight is from the Black Widow tie in comic. I've seen some scan not the whole fight, but it looks like she took on three assassins. This is for sure seems like a good skill feat, but I haven't been able to find the entire fight and the canonicty of the comics is iffy.

Yes, that's the fight I'm mentionning. Although how is the canonicity of these comics iffy exactly?

Half of Crossbones mercs were taken out with weapons. That said she did fight a handful in H2H/melee. It was about 5-6 and they had armor and guns. Though they mostly rushed to melee range even though they had guns. Instead using there guns as clubs. Widow also used there guns as clubs.

Nah, she only took out 2 with her Widow bites. One at the beginning and one at the end before she fought Crossbone. She fought all the other mercenaries without using weapons. She didn't use their guns as club, she disarmed them of their guns and took them out with punches, kicks and throws. She was able to knock out fully armored mercenaries. Meanwhile what's the senseis and students best durability feats?

Still remember these are modern soldier types. There training and experience is not focused on H2H combat. Most modern militaries have very brief self defense courses and that's it and less than a quarter of modern soldier report engaging in H2H combat and that includes detaining prisoners and the like.

They are mercenaries and hydra agents from what I know. Not regular soldiers. And the Shield agents and Hydra agents are trained in martial arts as we can see with people like Clint, Natasha, Captain America, Bucky, Sharon and Crossbones. Crossbones didn't pick up these people from the street.

Point is to some degree we can scale Miyagi-verse fighters off themselves, with out it being circular.

That out of the way. The Cobra Kai kids have no issue dropping/manhandling your average adult. Tory messes up her landlord, a random Cobra Kai drops a teacher in the school fight with not issue, and Robby drops his Mom's boyfriend with no issue.

Wow, they beat a few "average adult" (in other words, skilless people). Not impressive in the slightest. As if Natasha can't do that stuff easily while tied to a chair. Anyway, do the students and senseis even have the durability feats to suggest they wouldn't get oneshotted or two shotted by Natasha. Or even the speed feats to suggest they can effectively tag her. Because they sure as hell don't have the skill feat to suggest they would tag her without some good speed.

Lets move this baseline up though. Your contention is because they haven't been training long they can't be skilled. In universe though we see multiple Miyagi-Do/Eagle Fang/Cobra Kai students who make it to the championships with a few months of training. This indicates that there training methods are more effective than most.

No but experience can sometime give you an advantage. Natasha's training is on a whole other level. She was trained by the best to be turned into a weapon. Her training was much more brutal, went on for much longer and was a matter of life and death. Seriously, she is extensively trained in and has mastered to near perfection multiple martial arts like Karate, Judo, Boxing, Teakwondo, Lucha-libre style wrestling, multiple styles of Kung-Fu, etc. (hell, she's shown using much more martial arts than just that). She's known as one of the best fighters in the world (MCU). How are these kids even a factor?

We also see this in season 1. Where Robby after a handful of lessons with Daniel is able to hold his own against 2 street punks. Criminals with a back ground in mugging and physical violence. He doesn't win the fight by combative means, but he is able to lead them into a trap while fighting both of them. Its clear that he could have taken either one on one and he achieved a sort of victory against 2.

Seriously, not impressive in the slightest in comparison to Natasha.

It may not be perfect scaling, but all this would indicate that your average Cobra Kai student even with limited training could beat 1-2 street thugs. Lets call it 1.5 that means when Robby went through something like 8 Cobra Kai students. He was basically taking out the rough equivalent of a 12 person gang of street fighters with some experience. He did this with out getting tagged. In other words easily.

Again, none of this is impressive when you put this person against someone like Black Widow.

Similarly the hockey team that Daniel took out was wearing protective gear, armed with clubbing weapons, and probably engaged in physical confrontations more often the mercs armed with guns.

Seriously, the members of a hockey team are supposed to be more skilled than trained Hydra proffesionals? Ok sure...

However if you believe normal soldiers are super good at hand to hand combat. Karate Kid 2 Chozen was the top student in his dojo. A dojo that trained the U.S Military. Young Chozen took out 4 black belts from said school, teen Daniel took out and armed Chozen trying to kill him.

Natasha takes on literal superhumans, some of and elite Widow assassins who have way more black belts than these random U.S. soldiers.

Considering Robby can take out groups of trained martial artist and Johnny and Daniel have taken out armed gangsters before, yeah I figure they can take out groups of armed martial artists. Granted they don't normally fight to the death.

So since they can take random thugs, they can now take on whole gangs of fully armed (with guns) Yakuzas without getting shot? K, if you say so...

None of the characters involved fought an Extremis soldier. Also the Extremis soldier in Shang-Chi was comparatively not explode-y when compared to those in Iron-Man 3. So it's possible that it's of a different kind or de-powered, so as not to explode.

Yes, we see a Widow take on an Extremis. And the extremis are still superhumans able to tear through and melt some of Iron-Man's suits.

Black Panther was slowed down by two security guards in the casino fight and given the similar performances against groups of comparative fodder. Yes I'd figure somebody like Daniel could do as well as Hawkeye, even more so if he was armed.

You've seen some of Black Panther's other fights. Because this dude is not just really skilled, he's also enhanced.

Most the Widows were taken out with weapons ranged and electrified. The few she took on together up close put her down, until she was saved by Yelena.

At first she was fighting multiple at a time, then got thrown away, then started using her widow bites, then started fighting multiple at a time in H2H again until she got put down. Again, if everybody was unarmed the fight would have went the same way. Hell, if Natasha was holding back, she would have done a bit better too.

Widow beat Taskmaster with the antidote, not H2H.

She did fight in H2H. Before she used the antidote, she disarmed her and outskilled her. Taskmaster is a superhuman mimic who can perfectly copy any fighting style she sees.

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OP: Natasha wins. She's above them in skill, strenght, durability, speed, stamina and agility.

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immwarriorortal

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Team destroys.

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rawsos

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@gokuss4z said:

Widow would kill all these fools

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rawsos

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i love ck but this is ridiculous

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kfost_5

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@riotgear: Ok we can stop now these kids and “skilled adults” aren’t touching her and can we stop with the Hawkeye=Nat it’s been debunked three times and by Hawkeyes character and Russo brother statements….now I wonder if cap beat an opponent three times in the same manner Nat beat hawk would that opponent still have a case being made for them being equal …just saying 🧐

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byondeon

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Nat stomp these fodders