Classic Mid-Tier Tournament 1st Edition Round 1 - TheWatcherKing vs Naronu

• Power negation refers to the act of directly and remotely disabling your opponent's abilities or powers. Conditional power negation, i.e adaptative evolution, immunity, chi blocking, or more specific and esoteric applications of this ability are allowed. The purpose here is to ensure the battle remains competitive by requiring at least some level of physical interaction between the characters, and not just making them instantly powerless.
• Power copying, power stealing, and power absorption are still completely banned.
• Once the battle starts you can only amp yourself by consuming/draining the opponents' various energies, but likewise I'll introduce some perks for protection if that happens to be your character's weakness.
• If you want to amp yourself during prep, you can do it through any means at all, so long as it doesn't surpass the amping limits. Which is multi-mountain level.
• You can not amp summons, constructs, fodder, or clones under any circumstances.
• Don't pick a character blatantly over the limits and try to justify them by saying you'll ignore their powers that are over the limits and just use what's allowed. How about you stop being lazy and look for a character that's allowed instead.
• BFR is allowed through physical strength, but self-BFR is not allowed. You have to have a physical presence on the battlefield at all times. Going into another dimension and staying there indefinitely (i.e Kamui or Mirror Master) while leaving an illusion of yourself present is only allowed for the purposes of intangibility or defense - it is NOT a win condition and you still have to fight.
• You can not BFR your teammates.
• Battlefields will be randomized unless you pick the Choose Battlefield perk. The parameters/bounds of the battlefield will be specified in every thread. With the perk, you can dictate starting distance and time of day. You can not choose a location that's over the limits.
  • What this means is you can't pick a place where the environment is beyond the durability/endurance limits of the characters and/or instantly surpasses their regeneration threshold. You also can't choose somewhere that's indestructible and try to fuse with it.
• Teamwork is not a factor but Perfect Teamwork is necessary for strategies that incorporate such.
• Time acceleration/deceleration can not exceed 1000x the normal speed or flow of time.
• Affecting the opponents during prep in any way is not allowed.

A long time ago, King Zahard came into the uncivilised Tower and taught the inhabitants civilisation and ruled over them. He had said, "This place is too boggy".

For us, who were born and raised inside the Tower, it is a statement that makes no sense. But for the people outside the Tower, the "Irregulars", it is something they know very well. Surprisingly, there's no shinsoo in their world and something called "air" fills their world instead. They said that the Tower filled with shinsoo is too boggy and uncomfortable for them.

I have never seen air, but I have found out some commonalities and differences between air and shinsoo by interviewing the Irregulars.

First, the common point is that they both let living beings breathe. And they both exist all throughout their worlds. It is also noted that they both are powerful enough to threaten living things when they flow harshly.

Then the difference? The biggest difference is indeed the characteristics that vary by concentration. In shinsoo's case it's more like a gas when it's in low concentrations and more like liquid when it is in high concentrations. However, it seems air cannot be liquefied, even in high concentrations.

The second difference is the circulation. The circulation of shinsoo is very fluent but there is no common law and the movements are all different, depending on the Floor of the Tower you are on. However, it is said that there are set laws in the circulation of air. (I want to study some more about the laws, but the research is slow because none of the Irregulars that I have met are knowledgeable enough about the laws of air.)

The third difference is consumption. shinsoo exists everywhere inside the Tower. So shinsoo exists even in a room that is completely sealed. shinsoo does not flow in from somewhere else, but is rather created from the Tower. Thus, shinsoo even exists within a vacuum. Air is not created from sealed places and, if a being is locked inside a sealed room, the being will consume all of the air and die. (It seems very uncomfortable.)

First and foremost Shigaraki’s decay. With a single touch Shigaraki is able to decay whatever he touches, he shows how powerful this is when he pretty much nukes a city with this when fighting Re Destro all while laughing.

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We see the result of his doing this later, which shows a massive crater covering most of the city.

He also was able to decay are Destro’s stress balls, which even while being decayed were potent enough to be destroying leveling chunks of the city with a shockwave

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And Shigaraki gets a buff right after this too, and is described as a transcendent being liberated from its human shackles.

Upon waking up Shigaraki not only destroys the mountain the hospital is on top of but also 1/3 of the city nearby.

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As for Shigaraki’s stats?

He’s constantly compared to the likes of All Might at base, as in without any quirks. As evidenced by the fact that by the above scan where Eraserhead is negating his quirks.

As shown Re Destro‘s attacks could level much of a city with a shockwave while literally being decayed by Shigaraki, yet he got overpowered by the likes of Dark Shadow when utilizing Ragnorak. But what’s even more interesting is that Dark Shadow was actually afraid of Gigantomachia and stated him to be a bigger threat(I’ll circle back to this later).

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Deku while at 45% was able to break out of Dark shadow Ragnorak while covered in scars, having barely eaten, and constantly fighting without rest.

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Yet Shigaraki could catch a punch from 100% Deku (still with his quirks turned off) with his teeth.

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In All Might’s fight in kamino where he was at his weakest, he and All for one clashing busts many city blocks with air pressure.

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1. After giving up OFA he’s using mere embers of the power he once had
2. Didn’t even have enough OFA to buff up his whole body, just one arm.
3. Clashing with All for one, and then takes All for one reversing the force back at All Might. So he basically took the full brunt of that attack

This gets even better when you remember Gigantomachia, he served as All for one’s body guard and he only respects those stronger than him(which is why Shigaraki struggled at first to tame him till he was strong enough. All For One knew his defeat was inevitable for his upcoming fight with All Might so he decided to hide Gigantomachia, proving he knew even in All Might’s pitiful condition Gigantomachia couldn’t make a difference. Especially since All for one has a teleportion quirk that only brings people to him, so if he had thought mid battle Gigantomachia (his former body guard) could help he could bring him.

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So All Might and Shigaraki both scale well beyond the likes of Gigantomachia, and should at the very least be at large mountain levels of power.

Shigaraki has more than just decay and high stats though, in fact he was prompted an entire arsenal of powers from All For One that I will go onto explain throughout this debate.

As the name of the section implies Jean Grey has the ability to influence not just the world around her by sheer force of will but can manipulate the minds of others by enforcing her will over them. To start off with Jean’s telekinesis operates firmly at the limits of this tourney, which she uses not just to attack/defend but to enhance her stats.

Cyclops was able to clash and match his future vision in an optic blast battle, and Jean has shown she can casually warp/manipulate his blasts to hit an amped Magneto.

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Cyclops has shown he can blast through mountains when the X Factor was trapped under one, and pave a path through a mountain range.

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Putting Jean at the limits of large mountain level, but she doesn’t just work on the limits of scale. She can also think small as shown when she could be shifting oxygen molecules in a vacuum for the X Men, or far smaller when she remade herself from a poison symbiote genetic material after she had died.

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Given how the limits of regen promise that destruction to atoms is defeat… fighting someone who is at the limits of power and can work on an even smaller scale than atoms means you are in for a fight.

But that’s far from the extent of her power, as I said she can manipulate minds. Putting the likes of Logan to sleep moments after being told she was a telepath who has lvl 9 shields…

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….or beating an amped Emma Frost who was can send a message to the entire mutant population.

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And there’s tons of stuff I can do with her abilities even with the heavy restrictions on telepathy if you don’t have the proper resistance. Such as putting you in a mind loop, it took Karnak hours before he realized he was in one and much much longer to break out despite his powers centering around noticing the flaws in things.

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I could give you migraines, spam illusions, or do things like shut off your motor functions(approved by Host).

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Just to give you an idea, your mind will be my plaything if you can’t prove you can deal with it.

First I’ll state my perks are

• Mach 300 speed, this was so there is no need to talk about speed at all. My team is at the limits, and this gives Jean the advantage in applications as her attacks happen the instant she thinks it and can’t be telegraphed.
• 30 minutes prep, so I can prepare for the fight.

The strategy? There’s so much my team can do within this time, for starts Jean Grey can buff up Shigaraki’s physic defenses so if you do have any sort of mental abilities you can forget using them.

The biggest thing I plan to do is to amp my team, Jean Grey has the ability to draw psionic energy from those around her to amplify herself to immense degrees.

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1. Amps herself up to match Gladiator
2. Was being mentally dominated but absorbed all that psionic energy to one shot her opponent.

She has shown she can do this without being in the presence of other telepaths but she’ll get more which is where Shigaraki comes into play. Inside quirks like OFA/AFO is the minds/souls of all the people who’s quirks exist, not only that but Shigaraki has shown he has mental based quirks like one that casts a mental image of ones death to inspire fear/paralysis.

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Jean has shown she can draw on such energy without hurting them(again like with the X Men) but she can drain someone to the point of killing them, like with the poison queen which killed off the rest of the poison symbiotes. Jean also states they absorbed “many lives from many worlds“

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In fact her upper limits for amping is impressively high. Her best feat in that regard? She has absorbed the psionic energy from an entire alien world, Terrax, Galactus and the Pheonix force to stagger a hungry Galactus.

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While obviously she can’t muster this level of power normally it does show her upper limits for amping will be more than enough to achieve the limits for power amping, especially when we take a look at one of your perks being energies equalized. With this basically everything would be treated the same as psionic energy, which allows Jean Grey to survive telepathic assaults from those tiers above her and go on to one shot them. Meaning that the effect will be amping Jean Grey, and she won’t ever be overwhelmed given her vast reserves.

Oh, did I mention how she can amp people with her telepathy? She amped Cyclops to be at least several times stronger given how he went from having his and angels attacks shrugged off to easily bypassing the same defenses alone.

So Shigaraki‘s abilities will be amped in this fight as well. One last thing I almost forgot to bring up is decay, it spreads so if one thing gets touched it keeps going and going.

This is bad for you as you have

1. No knowledge, you don’t know how decay works or that even a bit of rubble can hit you and lead to decay spreading that way.
2. You don’t have prep, you appear on the battlefield and are instantly under attack. You’ll have to immediately get yourself together and be forced on the defensive. Which maybe you could do under normal circumstances, but….
3. Jean can manipulate your mind, in which case you may not be aware of our very existence. Jean can spam illusions making you unaware of the coming attack or disorient your senses, turn off your motor skills, or force you to be hit by using TK.

That’s just the the initial assault, maybe you can resist decay(up to you to prove) but that doesn’t mean you’re safe. You still have to prove you can deal with the mental manipulation you have to deal with, on top of two beings amped to higher limits than you are, one of whom can absorb your attacks and just drain you dry.

We also outnumber you, as this version of Shigaraki has the power to summon Nomus to the battlefield, 9 near high ends.

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Just to give extra muscle.

And killing this duo shouldn’t be an easy task, the limits for regen are if you’re reduced to atoms then it’s over you lost. Which according to Star is exactly what is needed to kill Shigaraki….

…. And Jean Grey can exist as a mind that has literally rebuilt her body. Bringing two people who are amped higher than the standard limits to what is considered death isn’t an easy task, but you can try.

I'll talk about stats first and quirks second.

He’s constantly compared to the likes of All Might at base, as in without any quirks. As evidenced by the fact that by the above scan where Eraserhead is negating his quirks.

You haven't shown that any of his quirks amp his stats though, so I'm not entirely sure why this is relevant. Decay certainly doesn't amp stats.

As shown Re Destro‘s attacks could level much of a city with a shockwave while literally being decayed by Shigaraki, yet he got overpowered by the likes of Dark Shadow when utilizing Ragnorak.

Except Re Destro wasn't overpowered here, you can see Tokoyami getting worried and Re Destro smiling as he stopped Ragnorak in the panel. Then Re Destro's prosthetic legs break and he loses his footing:

It's very clear in the bottom right that full stress Re Destro is overpowering Ragnarok before his legs snap. I wouldn't say 45% Deku scales over 100% Stress Re Destro physically based on his prosthetic leg breaking when he was stopping Ragnarok in its tracks beforehand.

This gets even better when you remember Gigantomachia, he served as All for one’s body guard and he only respects those stronger than him(which is why Shigaraki struggled at first to tame him till he was strong enough. All For One knew his defeat was inevitable for his upcoming fight with All Might so he decided to hide Gigantomachia, proving he knew even in All Might’s pitiful condition Gigantomachia couldn’t make a difference. Especially since All for one has a teleportion quirk that only brings people to him, so if he had thought mid battle Gigantomachia (his former body guard) could help he could bring him.

This isn't what your scan says, it states that "When All For One was weakened by All Might, he knew his defeat was inevitable, so he hid Gigantomachia away ... No matter what might happen to him he made sure his hopes and dreams would live on." There's nothing there that indicates that AFO didn't teleport Gigantomachia because he couldn't make a difference, AFO's injury was years before the fight on Kamino and he had been on life support ever since. By this point AFO had already given Shigaraki his original quirk and was focused on the future, there was no reason to use a piece like Gigantomachia. Especially when he already suspected All Might had given up OFA.

So All Might and Shigaraki both scale well beyond the likes of Gigantomachia, and should at the very least be at large mountain levels of power.

The feat you posted for Gigantomachia isn't anywhere close to mountain level though, this is like MCB or small-town at best. All Might and AFO's clash is certainly impressive, but it's not even mountain level. With multiple holes in the scaling chain from Re Destro it really doesn't appear that this version of Shigaraki is mountain level, much less at the limits of the tournament like you are suggesting.

As for Decay it's not even the slightest bit of a problem, your best showings for individually decaying things are Re-Destro's stress balls. Baam's Shinwonryu ate Karaka's World of Darkness, which have taken Yuri's serious hits without breaking, their entire point is absorbing shinsoo and energy. Data Zahard's baangs alone being able to overwhelm Baam's shinwonryu means Decay won't be able to decay them, and this isn't even Zahard's body which barely got a cut from punching through Baam's scattered shinwonryu. In this battle with equalized energies, Decay is completely ineffective with Zahard's shinsoo resistance.

And then Sayoko as a permanently intangible ghost doesn't have to worry about Decay at all.

Shigaraki has more than just decay and high stats though, in fact he was prompted an entire arsenal of powers from All For One that I will go onto explain throughout this debate.

They'd better be impressive because as is, Shigaraki is functionally a brick who doesn't have the striking or durability to fight someone like Data Maschenny, who Data Zahard quite literally toyed with. He also has no ability to even interact with Sayoko.

Cyclops was able to clash and match his future vision in an optic blast battle, and Jean has shown she can casually warp/manipulate his blasts to hit an amped Magneto.

This is misleading, literally in the next panel we're shown young Cyclops being blasted away by his older counterpart:

It's very clear that the current Cyclops is his superior. And considering these are your only feats for scaling Jean's TK, I honestly don't know where her limits actually lie. Do neither her, nor the Cyclops whose blasts she actually scales to have any other feats of potency?

She can also think small as shown when she could be shifting oxygen molecules in a vacuum for the X Men, or far smaller when she remade herself from a poison symbiote genetic material after she had died.

I won't pretend that I'm an expert on symbiote biology, but in the real world genetic material is significantly larger than atoms, in fact the smallest unit that can still be considered genetic material, a single nucleotide, is significantly larger than the oxygen molecules she was manipulating in your previous scan. A single nucleotide is 0.6nm, compared to 0.299nm for an O2 molecule.

Given how the limits of regen promise that destruction to atoms is defeat… fighting someone who is at the limits of power and can work on an even smaller scale than atoms means you are in for a fight.

So not only do you not have feats below molecular, but none of the scans you posted have anything to do with destroying a body down to atoms. And considering shinsoo is roughly the same size depending on which definition you go for (shinsoo is water = 0.27nm, shinsoo is air = 0.305nm), you don't have any sort of tangible advantage in terms of operating on a microscale.

Let's talk about energies equalized and why Jean's draining and absorption is useless here. For Zahard I'll keep harping on this point as many times as it takes, his basic shinsoo manipulation was able to overwhelm the absorption of Baam's Shinwonryu. In addition to this Coelacanth was able to blast through Baam's shinsoo even when he was amped by both the Thorn and Red Thryssa. For reference just the Red Thryssa alone (the fraction of an administrator) had such absolute control over shinsoo that not only was he immune to every attack that a team of continental+ characters could dish out, but he could effortlessly take all the shinsoo away from those same characters. And Baam with the Thorn was unaffected by this, placing that on an even higher tier. Data Zahard's own shinsoo resistance scales to this Baam, meaning you'd need draining far far above the limits of the tournament to even consider draining him. Sayoko likewise has the feat of her magic bypassing Magia Erebea, which is also power absorption and redirection, and similarly has feats far above the scope of this tournament. Both of my team have showings where they interact with absorption well above the scope of this tournament and are able to bypass it regardless.

But let's get down to her mental manipulation, as that's what this match will be defined by. Can she effect either Data Zahard or Sayoko? I'll just repurpose some of the points brought up from my opener, namely the fact that your mental attacks simply won't be able to effect Zahard due to the combination of his shinsoo resistance and spell breaking. Mental Manipulation obviously falls under the bracket of shinsoo manipulation, with Doom being able to modify memories and transmute people with his mental attacks, Charlie focusing on manipulating the senses, Traumerei's massive floor wide illusions, or the fact that higher shinsoo concentration drives people insane on its own. Sayoko similarly is protected due to the vengeful spirits which make up her very being, with an Albireo connected to Ialda and Phantasmagoria still stating he was inferior to her as a necromancer. Now considering you're also amping your mental defenses to the limits it's unlikely the blowbacks of trying to mentally attack either of my characters have any real effect in this match, but you can't argue any of Jean's abilities bypassing their resistances without arguing her over the limits in terms of potency.

And with her TP, TK, and draining all being ineffective, what does Jean really have left to offer?

The biggest thing I plan to do is to amp my team, Jean Grey has the ability to draw psionic energy from those around her to amplify herself to immense degrees.

She has shown she can do this without being in the presence of other telepaths but she’ll get more which is where Shigaraki comes into play. Inside quirks like OFA/AFO is the minds/souls of all the people who’s quirks exist, not only that but Shigaraki has shown he has mental based quirks like one that casts a mental image of ones death to inspire fear/paralysis.

During prep there's nobody else in the battlefield other than her, Shigaraki, and the Nomu, and Shigaraki is the only one it's even arguable to have any sort of telepathy. Speaking of that is it even confirmed that Shigaraki was using a quirk there? When they were afraid of AFO in Kamino it didn't seem quirk based at all, Bakugo was noticeably unaffected, as were the pro heroes. It just seemed like a standard "confronted with an enemy of great power" fear that appears in battle shonen like MHA:

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No knowledge, you don’t know how decay works or that even a bit of rubble can hit you and lead to decay spreading that way.

This isn't exactly important, Sayoko can't be affected by decay at all, and it won't be able to harm Zahard even if he decided to let it touch him, which he has no reason to do. Not only has Zahard interacted with similar abilities it's not like Decay is a particularly difficult ability to understand either.

Also I want to point out here that your team also lacks any sort of knowledge here as to the abilities of their opponents. So you're just as blindsided as to what my team is capable of, placing your hopes in an all out offensive with an ability that won't affect either member of my team is setting up for failure.

You don’t have prep, you appear on the battlefield and are instantly under attack. You’ll have to immediately get yourself together and be forced on the defensive. Which maybe you could do under normal circumstances

That's not a particularly unexpected outcome though is it? As you've pointed out my team doesn't have knowledge so it's natural to assume they could be attacked at any moment, even when spawned in. But it's not like either member of my team would be forced on the defensive by Decay or Jean's TK.

Jean can manipulate your mind, in which case you may not be aware of our very existence. Jean can spam illusions making you unaware of the coming attack or disorient your senses, turn off your motor skills, or force you to be hit by using TK.

Addressed in the previous section, based on the limits of this tournament Jean can't have the mental ability to affect either member of my team mentally.

Killing this duo shouldn’t be an easy task, the limits for regen are if you’re reduced to atoms then it’s over you lost. Which according to Star is exactly what is needed to kill Shigaraki…. And Jean Grey can exist as a mind that has literally rebuilt her body

This is nice and all but the regen limits are:

if a character is either A) reduced beyond visual recognition without enhanced sight, or B) scattered beyond the confines of the battlefield, they're considered at least KO'd.

This is a remarkably easy thing to do, especially with Zahard's Shinwonryu or Coelacanth. But it's not even like the battle is to the death:

Win by death, knockout, incapacitation, or BFR.

Sayoko's bite is an instant match-ender for either of your team considering it was able to get around Magia Erebea. In addition to this you're summoning literal fodder to be controlled and turned against you. The Near-High End Nomu don't have the feats to match up here physically, nor do they have any sort of relevant hax to add in this battle, to be honest Lecalicus could oneshot all nine of them.

I will be doing her section first as for this battle the psionic combat will not take long relatively speaking, as time on the astral plane moves much quicker than in reality.

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1. “Years in the astral plane, moments in reality”
2. In the astral plane, a moment can last thousands of years.

So before a single punch or attack gets performed, you’ll have to fend off Jean Grey for the equivalent of a Millennia a mere second into the battle.

I will also point out how much faster her powers progressed when Charles wasn’t around to hold her back. While she’s not stronger than her current adult version who would be over limits, she is stronger/more skilled than Jean was under Professor X for quite a while and would scale to those feats.

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1. Shows a level of aptitude according to Beast she only previously hit when Pheonix.
2. Adult Jean admits her time displaced self is way stronger than she was at that at.

And to put things into perspective Phoenix Jean has control over all atoms in the universe.

Of course Teen Jean doesn’t have it on such a massive scale, but Beast comparing Teen Jean when she’s very early into being brought into the present and learning her powers is very impressive.

It's very clear that the current Cyclops is his superior. And considering these are your only feats for scaling Jean's TK, I honestly don't know where her limits actually lie. Do neither her, nor the Cyclops whose blasts she actually scales to have any other feats of potency?

I said exactly what happened, young cyclops did clash and match his older version but he did get overpowered after the fact. And he should, given his older version is in the multi mountain level range(he’s casually blasted through mountains and plowed through a mountain range) matching him to the extent he did would put his younger at the limits of power.

As for if there’s other things putting her at mountain level, she’s been regarded as an omega level telekinetic, something psylocke isn’t but she’s known for being able to move/destroy mountains.

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And there is Jean’s older version who has had casual mountain level claims which would add consistency to this level of power.

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There shouldn’t be too much discussion on if Jean is at the limits especially since prep is to amp her even further.

I won't pretend that I'm an expert on symbiote biology, but in the real world genetic material is significantly larger than atoms,

in fact the smallest unit that can still be considered genetic material, a single nucleotide, is significantly larger than the oxygen molecules she was manipulating in your previous scan. A single nucleotide is 0.6nm, compared to 0.299nm for an O2 molecule

Symbiotes are atomic type organisms, they are inside of every atom in a host body(which has allowed people to change their appearance like below).

Jean was rewriting the structure of the symbiote body with her TK to make a her body, which I would say is evidence of smaller than molecular manipulation.

And considering shinsoo is roughly the same size depending on which definition you go for (shinsoo is water = 0.27nm, shinsoo is air = 0.305nm), you don't have any sort of tangible advantage in terms of operating on a microscale.

Considering you never even explained what Shinsoo is, or mentioned having a healing factor I don’t see what your point is here? Nor do I think you even shown cellular attacks.

And Baam with the Thornwas unaffected by this, placing that on an even higher tier. Data Zahard's own shinsoo resistance scales to this Baam, meaning you'd need draining far far above the limits of the tournament to even consider draining him. Sayoko likewise has the feat of her magic bypassing Magia Erebea,which is also power absorption and redirection, and similarly has feats far above the scope of this tournament. Both of my team have showings where they interact with absorption well above the scope of this tournament and are able to bypass it regardless

You just conceded if the basis of your argument is people above continental not draining you. Because that’s not the stated limits for draining, in fact the host himself has utilized draining. Wanna see what he himself has argued?

Quite literally draining people of infinite energy is on the table meaning I don’t have to cap myself at some arbitrary limit like continental. Jean will drain your team dry the instant the fight starts.

Like an alien that had 10 billion collective minds…

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As I shown she absorbed the Poison queen who absorbed lives from countless worlds, and from an entire world against galactus.

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You aren’t resisting this because of some false idea of being at “the limits”. Even if I did overlook the fact you’re scaling your character to a similar degree to a continental character here

I'll just repurpose some of the points brought up from my opener, namely the fact that your mental attacks simply won't be able to effect Zahard due to the combination of his shinsoo resistance and spell breaking. Mental Manipulation obviously falls under the bracket of shinsoo manipulation, withDoom being able to modify memories and transmute people with his mental attacks,Charlie focusing on manipulating the senses,Traumerei's massive floor wide illusions, or the fact thathigher shinsoo concentration drives people insane on its own.

You’re banking on blanket immunity but have provided no evidence as to what level these mental abilities are, which leads me to believe they are fodder in comparison. It’s not like we’re talking about conceptual defenses to mental immunity as that stuff is banned altogether, so you would need to prove you can actually resist TP at the limits energies equal or not. It’s not like Jean’s abilities haven’t bypassed things that are supposed to be immune to her or negate abilities.

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1. Shields can’t stop her telepathy, natural or unnatural.
2. Defeats a psi shark that was no selling her psi bolts
3. Takes it out
4. Shields can’t stop her

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1. Jean puts Magneto in an illusion making him think he killed dazzler
2. continuation
3. had his helmet which is supposed to make him impenetrable to a telepath.

Tony Stark is shielded against TP, and it even hurts those that try to use it against him but Jean read his mind easily showing her skill.

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And the ebony blade wasn’t able to even effect Jean’s type of abilities for what it’s worth.

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1. Ebony sword
2. Negs a magical barrier that Dr Strange described as beyond comprehension.
3. Redirects a blast from Zeus, a skyfather.
4. Cuts through time manipulation blasts.

It’s even cut through reality warping defenses from the super adaptiod with the cosmic cube. Jean Grey has dealt with many beings that can neg abilities or should be immune to her powers, quite literally her first telepathy feat was hurting Juggernaut who like Magneto should be immune to TP. Not only that but overpowers other telepaths who can use their TP on him.

Prove to me that you can do better.

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There’s also the dreamscape which is something Jean has had access to ever since she was young, which is like a hallway that holds all minds.

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Accessing this would give her a huge advantage.

Sayoko similarly is protected due to the vengeful spirits which make up her very being, with an Albireo connected to Ialda and Phantasmagoria still statinghe was inferior to her as a necromancer.Now considering you're also amping your mental defenses to the limits it's unlikely the blowbacks of trying to mentally attack either of my characters have any real effect in this match

Now I’m actually confused, cause you’re admitting with my defenses these spirits won’t have any effect on me but you’re promising they’re a defense against mind manipulation? Why? Why can’t Jean manipulate them all too? Why can’t I turn your team against itself? Remember to fend against Jean you’ll be dealing with her for basically thousands of years every instant, unless you think you can beat me in a mental battle then you’re not in for a good time.

Like soul and telepathic attacks are done through the astral plane, it’s been shown that telepaths can easily effect demons/spirits as well as communicate with those that are dead.

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So as you admitted your soul/mental stuff will have no effect on me and I still have yet to see even a half decent TP resistance feat.

but you can't argue any of Jean's abilities bypassing their resistances without arguing her over the limits in terms of potency

I could very easily go into detail showing telepaths take down the defenses of higher end telepaths which would be way better than getting passed the defenses of a non telepath as they can fight back, rather than passively enduring psychic attacks. That said you haven’t proven I need it, prove to me your resistance is at limits before I put forth that effort.

You haven't shown that any of his quirks amp his stats though, so I'm not entirely sure why this is relevant.

You aren’t sure why the fact he can amplify his power when I said his strength without any quirks is at limits is relevant? As I said he has all the quirks all for one had

And the version I have spent most of the fight depowered like I said already, and then went onto invade OFA after Deku was spamming 100% attacks. The focus for Shigaraki was less on quirk amps since he has a modified body, but it’s something he has the power to do and has the All for one persona inside him.

Which means all of the stat amps AFO has that allowed him to throw hands with All Might are what Shigaraki has access to.

Except Re Destro wasn't overpowered here, you can see Tokoyami getting worried and Re Destro smiling as he stopped Ragnorak in the panel. Then Re Destro's prosthetic legs break and he loses his footing:

??? Smiling?

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He was looking at tokoyami, and in the second panel is worried. Tokoyami just was surprised, Re Destro was 100% defeated and didn’t start fighting till 278 which is 13 chapters later and with one leg.

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So there’s absolutely no reason he couldn’t have kept going if Tokoyami didn’t take him out if the fight for a bit. The very fact is he never overpowered Dark Shadow, he was trying to stop dark shadow when his leg and got buried.

There’s absolutely no argument for Tokoyami not scaling to Re Destro other than dismissive thinking.

And don’t you dare be more strict on what scales to the limits when you didn’t even explain in depth Sayoko being at limits and this.

Durability wise he not onlyabsolutely no-sold Data Maschenny's city-sized electric storm, but alsotanked Baam's Stardustas well asa hit from the data form of the High Ranker Zahardplacing him at the absolute limits of this tourney. And then for AP he effortlesslyvaporized a crevasse of rock with the wave of his hand, an easy mountain-level feat.

Is all for your first feat, just no selling a city level attack and claiming you vaporized an area but don’t show the entire area that was destroyed and it doesn’t even look like it was vaporized. Not to say it wasn’t, we don’t see the full area in those scans and just see a bunch of large debris during the explosion.

This isn't what your scan says, it states that "When All For One was weakened by All Might, he knew his defeat was inevitable, so he hid Gigantomachia away ... No matter what might happen to him he made sure his hopes and dreams would live on." There's nothing there that indicates that AFO didn't teleport Gigantomachia because he couldn't make a difference

Let’s put on our thinking caps why don’t we.

All Might was running through all of AFO’s forces prior to their first fight, none of whom come close to the tier of AFO, and he loses. He knows they’ll clash again in the future and there’s nothing he can do to stop himself from losing, common sense would say that his strongest bodyguard who is weaker than he is would make no difference right? If defeat is inevitable then that means he can’t avoid the reality he will lose.

So….. if he could kill All Might by simply having backup common sense would say that Gigantomachia would’ve been used. But the fact is his losing would’ve happened no matter what he did, even if he teleported Gigantomachia to the battle like he could’ve so he saved it for his ”successor”. It’s not hard to understand, this breakdown is far more clear cut than yours.

AFO's injury was years before the fight on Kamino and he had been on life support ever since.

Lmao and? All Might sustained terribly energies and had to have so much surgery that his insides were never the same, and to top it all off he was without his QUIRK. Like this is a chart from the Two Heroes movie showing his decline prior his finale against AFO where he would’ve been even weaker.

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Before All Might and AFO before fighting go onto say how weak they’ve both gotten compared to their primes.

By this point AFO had already given Shigaraki his original quirk and was focused on the future, there was no reason to use a piece like Gigantomachia.

Shigaraki had not yet received it, but like I said All Might had given up his quirk and was focused on the future. The difference is All for One took a cloned copy of the quirk, Toshinori had to use embers of the power he once had. All Might had a lot less to work with. Plus his future? His goal is to be the demon king as we know it right now…

….if he could win against All Might he would. But he couldn’t, that’s what inevitable means.

Weak point

there was no reason to use a piece like Gigantomachia. Especially when he already suspected All Might had given up OFA.

????

The feat you posted for Gigantomachia isn't anywhere close to mountain level though,this is like MCB or small-town at best.

At this point you’re just countering things just to look like a completionist without paying attention to if you’re making sense. This was posted for no other reason other than to post that Gigantomachia was loyal to AFO, was his bodyguard, and AFO knew he couldn’t win against All Might.

He scales over Re Destro and has better feats, I just don’t need them.

All Might and AFO's clash is certainly impressive, but it's not even mountain level.

Obviously you aren’t reading.

The clash itself wasn’t even the point as they scale massively over Gigantomachia who is >>> Re Destro. But like I said, All Might is producing that level of power without even having a quirk in a massively weakened state and is causing that destruction with the mere air pressure of his launching an attack. The actual strikes would be much stronger, and even bare minimum city busting characters are no match when not even close to full power.

With multiple holes in the scaling chain from Re Destro it really doesn't appear that this version of Shigaraki is mountain level, much less at the limits of the tournament like you are suggesting.

You couldn’t poke a hole in a wall with a plastic spoon for an argument, you haven’t raised valid points so far.

As for Decay it's not even the slightest bit of a problem, your best showings for individually decaying things are Re-Destro's stress balls.

That as well as destroying a mountain along with a 1/3 of a city.

Baam's Shinwonryu ate Karaka's World of Darkness,which have taken Yuri's serious hits without breaking, their entire point is absorbing shinsoo and energy. Data Zahard's baangs alonebeing able to overwhelm Baam's shinwonryu

Blowing up an attack that neutralizes attacks using similar to decay how? You haven’t even tried quantifying the level of these sort of attacks.

They'd better be impressive because as is, Shigaraki is functionally a brick who doesn't have the striking or durability to fight someone like Data Maschenny, who Data Zahard quite literally toyed with.

Oh please, stats is not where he’s lacking. If anything the fact that you kept it brief doesn’t mean your scaling is flawless, you need to convince me you’re at the limits because I’m not sold for either character. As for all of Shigaraki’s abilities? The Host has allowed me all the powers he has access to even after the war arc given they don’t break the power limits so Shigaraki has….

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1. Radiowaves + air canon+ heavy payload. Basically he can shut down any sort of tech or communicate with it, let’s off an incredibly strong air pressure blast and heavy payload enhances it.
2. Warping + impact recoil, self explanatory.
3. Reflect + scatter, sends energy based attacks back and can be omnidirectional.
4. Unnamed energy attack quirk, AFO used this to destroy a man made city similar to I island.
5. Growth
6. Flight
7. The ability to always be able to locate anyone he lays his eyes on, and the quirk gives information about them letting the user know their weaknesses.
8. Forcible quirk activation, can be used for piercing attacks and mobility.

He also has several kinds of sensory quirks which would help in combat even against those of similar speed but this lets you know basically what Shigaraki has to offer.

During prep there's nobody else in the battlefield other than her, Shigaraki, and the Nomu, and Shigaraki is the only one it's even arguable to have any sort of telepathy.

I literally made it clear that not only does it not require other telepaths as Jean has used it without others being around(X men blue against magneto, she’s the only telepath will show scans if needed). But Shigaraki has tons and tons of consciousnesses inside of him, and while Jean can drain offensively she has done so without hurting her teammates or nerfing them.

Speaking of that is it even confirmed that Shigaraki was using a quirk there? When they were afraid of AFO in Kamino it didn't seem quirk based at all, Bakugo was noticeably unaffected, as were the pro heroes.

Bakugo quite clearly and obviously was teleported there the page after the students were paralyzed, that shouldn’t need to be explained. And yes, they were shown images of their impending death, I wasn’t even saying Shigaraki can freely use TP just implant mental images of death specifically but it is a mental quirk. Shigaraki forced them to imagine being decayed while AFO‘s was them being beaten to death.

Bakugo at that point had no knowledge that Shigaraki was the one decaying everything, Deku only vaguely knew because of something Shigaraki said when his decay was much much weaker. So for Bakugo to envision it would mean that image is implanted in his mind.

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And the pro heroes just got wiped by AFO, so idk what you expect.

Best Jeanist is terrified but it’s not like this isn’t the next chapter after he used the quirk, I’m not saying it’s continuous.

Not only has Zahard interacted with similar abilities it's not like Decay is a particularly difficult ability to understand either.

The power you shown didn’t seem similar to decay, but regardless you would be forced on the defensive immediately.

Also I want to point out here that your team also lacks any sort of knowledge here as to the abilities of their opponents. So you're just as blindsided as to what my team is capable of, placing your hopes in an all out offensive with an ability that won't affect either member of my team is setting up for failure.

My hopes are placed in beating you up, that just has many different ways of happening.

That's not a particularly unexpected outcome though is it? As you've pointed out my team doesn't have knowledge so it's natural to assume they could be attacked at any moment, even when spawned in

Don’t talk like they’re mentally prepared beforehand, they appear on the battlefield and they’re being attacked. Of course they’ll try to fight back but it’s that simple, they aren’t mentally prepared nor actually prepped, any action you argue they take has to occur after my attack. The opening attack is mine to make

Addressed in the previous section, based on the limits of this tournament Jean can't have the mental ability to affect either member of my team mentally.

Your defense against TP was abysmal, it was that there are souls of the dead that will attack but because I raised the defenses of all of my team then it won’t matter against me… so why bring it up? I’ll manipulate those souls anyway, and you gave no proof that the TP your other character has is on the level of Jean Grey. And I’ll bet they aren’t, you’re just banking on blanket immunity and hoping its enough.

You need to prove those mental abilities are on Jean level, then maybe we can discuss Jean not shutting off all your motor functions or spamming illusions till your out of bounds.

This is a remarkably easy thing to do, especially with Zahard's Shinwonryu or Coelacanth.

I said this, but you haven’t shown atomic attacks as far as I’m aware anyway.

Sayoko's bite is an instant match-ender for either of your team considering it was able to get around Magia Erebea.

Jean increasing the defenses of my team will mean no soul or mental ability will work against me.

In addition to this you're summoning literal fodder to be controlled and turned against you.

Jean can raise their defense or manipulate them just the same, nothing changes. Plus my summons aren’t a threat to me, but their stats are definitely a threat to you.

And they can all regen from a head, which if you can get around okay but is worth noting.

The Near-High End Nomu don't have the feats to match up here physically, nor do they have any sort of relevant hax to add in this battle, to the be honest Lecalicus could oneshot all nine of them.

Why not? High ends are superior to those that came before them even the one that took on All Might after he had less than a minute left in his muscle form, they would be in the large city-mountain range.

And as for those win conditions? They would be easier for me, KO given the numbers/stats of my team as well as BFR especially with illusions. If you can’t prove you have faced TP on Jean’s level then your team will fight itself.

KO is not a win condition against Jean, she can still fight and create constructs.

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And given her attacks are all thought based it’s not like you can restrain her movement. Death is a must, or BFR.

I want to talk about this first, since it's a crucial aspect of the post. The host confirmed that none of the rule changes will go into effect until next round:

Which means that hax resistances are still uncapped as the only limits on durability/endurance are as follows:

The physical durability and endurance of a character can not exceed the strength limit.

With that in mind let's talk about Zahard once more, specifically one event and one feat which drastically warp the shape of the entire ToG debating meta. At some point in the last 500 years Phantaminium suddenly appeared in the Tower, entered Zahard's palace slaughtering all of his High Ranker guards through some mysterious method, before facing Zahard and disappearing without a fight. Now Phantaminium is what is known as an Axis:

An Axis is named as such because their ability is invoked with the user as an Axis. Apart from this fact, their abilities do not hold almost any similarity with each other. A non-Axis User is unable to interfere in any way, meaning even the weakest Axis could defeat the strongest non-Axis. An Axis User can only be defeated by a more powerful Axis.

In the Tower of God universe, Phantaminum is the "author", or god, of one "story" in the universe. In exchange for taking on the responsibility of managing this story, he is given a powerful authority over the events that occur in the story. He is able to "write" records that cannot be erased or changed.

Every Axis has the power to generate a space around them, in which they can use a unique power that cannot be denied or negated. Under the specifications of this ability, an Axis can control some aspect of reality within their own field. Axes primarily have the ability to control the reality of a finite amount of space around them.

- SIU's Blog "TUS, Exis, and Phantaminium"

More specifically he is an Axis who SIU explicitly stated could end the webtoon itself if he got bored of the story:

Phantaminium:

Currently the only Exis in the Tower of God. It is said that he is an Exis that is even capable of collapsing the entire world of Tower of God. Perhaps the Tower of God webtoon will end the day he gets bored of the Tower...

It is said that even in the entire TUS universe, he is a very powerful Exis that is included in the Top 5 Exes.

- Comprehensive Info on the World of the Tower - SIU Tower of God Official Fan Cafe

Now every High Ranker (with the exception of Zahard himself) that encountered Phantaminium was struck with a mental illness with which they never recovered, but pre-regular Yuri Zahard (and every other one of Zahard's princesses) survived, solely due to her connection with Zahard. The mental offense of a character who quite literally could end the serialization of the webtoon if he got bored was ignored by a child just because she had a part of Zahard. And it is an unarguable fact that Data Zahard has this same qualification as "Zahard", even just as data.

It is important to state this is not a part of Zahard's blanket resistance to everything, but unless you can scale Jean above the fictional story itself, you can't affect Zahard mentally. And considering Jean's draining is based around psychic energy, you're going to need to do a little better than Galactus and the Phoenix Force.

Let's also talk about TUS itself for a moment, specifically the most important aspect of the universe:

The TUS is a universe under the premise that “The world comprises of several tales as its centre, and these tales persist as unchangeable records”. In other words, in Talse Uzer Stories the past cannot change and the future is already set.

Once written, a tale from the Talse Uzer universe cannot be set back or restored to a previous state. Hence, the past becomes permanently fixed, which in turn restricts future events. It's a universe that rejects the existing hypothesis that the world holds infinite possibilities.

-SIU's Blog 2011-11-25

Now Tower of God is a single story in the infinite amount of stories contained in TUS, but just like every story in TUS its past cannot change and its future is already set. But the real Zahard has shown the ability to freely alter thedestiny of the Tower, the only way this is possible within the framework of TUS is that Zahard is not only manipulating the future of ToG, but manipulating all of TUS as a whole. He is going against a fundamental aspect of the larger multiverse, something that could only be achieved with manipulating from a higher level than that multiverse. The stories in TUS are inalterable, but he is altering TUS as a whole so that the future of ToG was always as he wished (Baam does this passively btw). And Zahard canonically can never beat an Administrator, placing their abilities above him. The same Administrators who Baam can emulate. The same Administrative control over shinsoo that Coelacanth could blast through and Zahard directly matched all out with Leviathan. That's the level you're dealing with here.

As for the questions around Zahard's AP, I guess I'll do a little scaling as well. Baam at the beginning of the FoD did this, which did this much damage to a stone golem. After being amped by Hansung he did this, and he still had a zero percent chance of beating Zahard, with this having happened when he used the same attack he did on the Golem against Zahard. He's very clearly at the absolute limits of this tournament in terms of AP and Durability.

For some reason you also wanted quantification for the over limits characters? Here's Yuri's Rose Shower (that's a single rose dwarfing the Name Hunt Station), here's Cheonhee's Vortex of Doom matching it. Here's a basic attack from Kranka, who Cheonhee scales way over. She's objectively well above limits and Karaka BFR'd her effortlessly.

"mid tier"

time on the astral plane moves much quicker than in reality.

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1. “Years in the astral plane, moments in reality”
2. In the astral plane, a moment can last thousands of years.

So before a single punch or attack gets performed, you’ll have to fend off Jean Grey for the equivalent of a Millennia a mere second into the battle.

Was there no attempt to check the rules before deciding your plan here? Self-BFR is banned:

BFR is allowed through physical strength, but self-BFR is not allowed.

As the Astral Plane is a separate plane of existence which telepaths project themselves to, you're not allowed to go there by the rules of the tourney, so none of this matters. Same with the Dream Dimension which is just an aspect of the Astral Plane. So there's no fighting Jean for a millennia in this battle

Shows a level of aptitude according to Beast she only previously hit when Pheonix.

And to put things into perspective Phoenix Jean has control over all atoms in the universe.

Of course Teen Jean doesn’t have it on such a massive scale, but Beast comparing Teen Jean when she’s very early into being brought into the present and learning her powers is very impressive.

So she doesn't have the ability or she does? Because if she does then she's clearly over limits, and if she doesn't what's the point of bringing this up? Beast specifically mentions her telekinetic aptitude is above everything Adult Jean showed without the Phoenix, is that really in limits for a mid tier tournament? Especially when Teen Jean focusing her psychic energy was able to blast a hole straight through the Phoenix Force? While were on the subject of this Jean, I'd love to hear the explanation for how her being able to overpower the Phoenix Force (and parts of every other Phoenix Host) in its own mindscape fits the TP limits (which can't exceed continental).

Symbiotes are atomic type organisms, they are inside of every atom in a host body(which has allowed people to change their appearance like below).

That's fine then.

Considering you never even explained what Shinsoo is, or mentioned having a healing factor I don’t see what your point is here? Nor do I think you even shown cellular attacks.

This is honestly disappointing, there was an entire section of my opener dedicated to what Shinsoo is, if you aren't even reading what is written how can you possibly be so confident in your assertations?

You just conceded if the basis of your argument is people above continental not draining you. Because that’s not the stated limits for draining, in fact the host himself has utilized draining. Wanna see what he himself has argued?

Quite literally draining people of infinite energy is on the table meaning I don’t have to cap myself at some arbitrary limit like continental. Jean will drain your team dry the instant the fight starts.

Like an alien that had 10 billion collective minds…

As I shown she absorbed the Poison queen who absorbed lives from countless worlds, and from an entire world against galactus.

You aren’t resisting this because of some false idea of being at “the limits”. Even if I did overlook the fact you’re scaling your character to a similar degree to a continental character here

That's true, there are no limits to draining. There are also no limits to resistances, so please show me feats of this Jean doing anything comparable to either infinite multiversal fate manipulation or being able to end the serialization of her fictional series if she gets bored, then we can begin to entertain the idea of her being able to do anything to Data Zahard, much less "drain him dry the instant the fight starts".

Prove to me that you can do better.

Show me Jean being able to end her series or abandon any possibility of mentally effecting Data Zahard.

You’re banking on blanket immunity but have provided no evidence as to what level these mental abilities are, which leads me to believe they are fodder in comparison. It’s not like we’re talking about conceptual defenses to mental immunity as that stuff is banned altogether, so you would need to prove you can actually resist TP at the limits energies equal or not. It’s not like Jean’s abilities haven’t bypassed things that are supposed to be immune to her or negate abilities.

I'm torn on whether this is a case of willful ignorance or simple lack of comprehension. Every ability in ToG scales to the level of shinsoo manipulation that characters can use. For example, Charlie's sensory manipulation which worked on Last Station Baam scales above everything Baam resisted due to his shinsoo resistance up until that point. I feel like having posted an illusion that effected the entire Tower like Traumerei did would be enough to clearly indicate that there are mental attacks in ToG well above the limits of this tourney, but here's another example of Gustang mindwiping an entire floor.

Now I’m actually confused, cause you’re admitting with my defenses these spirits won’t have any effect on me but you’re promising they’re a defense against mind manipulation? Why? Why can’t Jean manipulate them all too? Why can’t I turn your team against itself? Remember to fend against Jean you’ll be dealing with her for basically thousands of years every instant, unless you think you can beat me in a mental battle then you’re not in for a good time.

The concept of rules in general do seem to be confusing to you, not quite sure why since they're very clear on this point:

Telepathy is allowed, but is restricted to mind-reading, memory altering, illusions, hypnosis, paranoia, pacification (forced tranquility, docility or dream-state), fear/nightmare inducement, or hallucinations. Anything else, or allowed functions at a high tier level, (continental and above) is banned.

It's a very simple scenario to understand, where the blowback from trying to mentally assault me can't be argued to damage someone who has defenses at a high tier level, but at the same time, you can't get through the defenses provided by those spirits without arguing yourself at a banned level of telepathy. This is a tournament, not a comic book, there are limits you're not allowed to exceed and stalemates can occur due to both sides not being able to effect the other.

So when Sayoko's mental defenses scale to Albireo, who connected an illusion from Mars to Earth, she's above the limit of what you can argue effecting with your mental attacks. It doesn't really matter what immunities Jean has bypassed because neither of my characters have immunities, just resistances above what you're allowed to argue effecting.

Bakugo at that point had no knowledge that Shigaraki was the one decaying everything, Deku only vaguely knew because of something Shigaraki said when his decay was much much weaker. So for Bakugo to envision it would mean that image is implanted in his mind.

Deku only vaguely knew? He was pretty damn confident a few chapters earlier for a vague guess:

For some reason you're also acting like Bakugo wasn't there to watch the city get Decayed right when Shigaraki was released. I don't think it takes a genius to put two and two together to make four.

He was looking at tokoyami, and in the second panel is worried. Tokoyami just was surprised, Re Destro was 100% defeated and didn’t start fighting till 278 which is 13 chapters later and with one leg.

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So there’s absolutely no reason he couldn’t have kept going if Tokoyami didn’t take him out if the fight for a bit. The very fact is he never overpowered Dark Shadow, he was trying to stop dark shadow when his leg and got buried.

There’s absolutely no argument for Tokoyami not scaling to Re Destro other than dismissive thinking.

It's impressive how wrong you are here. Firstly Re Destro is clearly shown in chapter 271 with both of his legs taken off, perfectly fine, but being held up by the delay on his new legs:

What you're arguing here isn't out of context or stretching the truth, it's just completely wrong and I question how you could have actually read the 13 chapters in-between 265 and 278 and came away with your conclusion. In addition to this in the scans you posted Re Destro clearly has two legs:

You quite literally can't stand like that without two feet. But beyond all that, this is a fundamentally worrying aspect of the debate, Re Destro and Tokoyami isn't even a core part of the scaling chain you established with Gigantomachia. It would have made no real difference to your Shigaraki scaling to simply tell the truth, instead you chose to deliberately lie about what occurred. It makes me wish that I had the time to go through and read every Jean scan you posted, because if you'd blatantly lie about something as little as this, what else could you have lied about?

Just as another example that took under 5 minutes, Shigaraki is explicitly not equal to All Might:

Another thing clearly stated by the person who rebuilt his body. So that whole line of scaling can be tossed in the garbage, and with the Tokoyami stuff being clearly wrong as well, you're left with what? Scaling over Gigantomachia and Deku's feats, not the faulty scaling you've implied increase their potency, neither of which place you anywhere near the limits of this tourney.

At this point you’re just countering things just to look like a completionist without paying attention to if you’re making sense. This was posted for no other reason other than to post that Gigantomachia was loyal to AFO, was his bodyguard, and AFO knew he couldn’t win against All Might.

Considering you can't scale Shigaraki to All Might due to the person who made his new body explicitly stating as much, it comes down to what actual feats you scale above. And this was one of the few lines of scaling which actually held up to scrutiny.

He scales over Re Destro and has better feats, I just don’t need them.

You do.

you didn’t even explain in depth Sayoko being at limits

Sayoko easily restrained someone who scales explicitly to a 2km+ explosion and is able to make a 1.5km radius explosion of her own with her attacks. It's not something that needs to go deeper than that, she's at the limits.

Let’s put on our thinking caps why don’t we.

All Might was running through all of AFO’s forces prior to their first fight, none of whom come close to the tier of AFO, and he loses. He knows they’ll clash again in the future and there’s nothing he can do to stop himself from losing, common sense would say that his strongest bodyguard who is weaker than he is would make no difference right? If defeat is inevitable then that means he can’t avoid the reality he will lose.

So….. if he could kill All Might by simply having backup common sense would say that Gigantomachia would’ve been used. But the fact is his losing would’ve happened no matter what he did, even if he teleported Gigantomachia to the battle like he could’ve so he saved it for his ”successor”. It’s not hard to understand, this breakdown is far more clear cut than yours.

Let's keep them on for a moment then, because AFO beat every other user of OFA canonically. He didn't lose to a single one before his first fight with All Might. Even if AFO could have won at Kamino it would have been a pyrrhic victory, he couldn't have stolen OFA, he couldn't have become the demon lord he wanted to be. The best chance of that rested with Shigaraki, the person he gave his quirk.

….if he could win against All Might he would. But he couldn’t, that’s what inevitable means.

No, it was never stated that he couldn't beat All Might, just that his defeat was inevitable, not specified to All Might. If he beats All Might then what? He'd have to deal with the next OFA user in his ruined body stuck on life support. It makes sense for him to not have wasted Gigantomachia as a pawn when Shigaraki was the future. It's not a difficult concept to understand that someone can win a battle by using every last resource, but then doom themselves to lose the war.

That as well as destroying a mountain along with a 1/3 of a city.

Come on, you have to realize that if you are arguing Decay as a spreading destruction then decaying a mountain and 1/3 of a city is a range feat, not a potency feat. When it comes to the actual potency of things you've shown Shigaraki decaying, Re Destros stress balls are comfortably the most potent.

Radiowaves + air canon+ heavy payload. Basically he can shut down any sort of tech or communicate with it, let’s off an incredibly strong air pressure blast and heavy payload enhances it.

Warping + impact recoil, self explanatory.

Reflect + scatter, sends energy based attacks back and can be omnidirectional.

Unnamed energy attack quirk, AFO used this to destroy a man made city similar to I island.

Growth

Flight

The ability to always be able to locate anyone he lays his eyes on, and the quirk gives information about them letting the user know their weaknesses.

Forcible quirk activation, can be used for piercing attacks and mobility.

So nothing that would effect Sayoko as a vengeful spirit or Zahard through his shinsoo resistance? Good to know. Shigaraki doesn't have any bearing on this battle at all.

Nothing has really changed.

The power you shown didn’t seem similar to decay

Didn't seem similar to decay. Nothing like decay, not at all. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and energies are equalized? It probably is a duck.

but regardless you would be forced on the defensive immediately.

When none of your team can scratch Zahard, and only Jean can interact with Sayoko this really doesn't mean anything.

Your defense against TP was abysmal, it was that there are souls of the dead that will attack but because I raised the defenses of all of my team then it won’t matter against me… so why bring it up? I’ll manipulate those souls anyway, and you gave no proof that the TP your other character has is on the level of Jean Grey. And I’ll bet they aren’t, you’re just banking on blanket immunity and hoping its enough.

You need to prove those mental abilities are on Jean level, then maybe we can discuss Jean not shutting off all your motor functions or spamming illusions till your out of bounds.

At this point I've lost count of how many times I've had to write this, between the last two posts and this one it's easily in the double-digits. It does not matter where you're arguing Jean, you either can't effect my team mentally or you're over limits choose one. I do have to say it's funny that you keep changing blanket resistance to blanket immunity and then posting feats of Jean getting around immunity as if that has any relevance to what I'm arguing.

I said this, but you haven’t shown atomic attacks as far as I’m aware anyway.

At this point I can only be convinced you just didn't read some of the scans I posted, which I find usually helps with figuring out what you're arguing against. Shinsoo is an atomic particle and multiple feats have been posted with characters affecting all of the shinsoo in an area, collapsing it down to a single point, changing its flow inside the body of other characters, etc.

And as for those win conditions? They would be easier for me, KO given the numbers/stats of my team as well as BFR especially with illusions. If you can’t prove you have faced TP on Jean’s level then your team will fight itself.

KO is not a win condition against Jean, she can still fight and create constructs.

Gallery

And given her attacks are all thought based it’s not like you can restrain her movement. Death is a must, or BFR.

You realize that it doesn't matter if you can keep fighting while KO'd, it's still a win condition of the tournament. If both your characters are KO'd the match is over. And it's well past the point where it's boring to repeat myself, but once again, I don't need to have faced TP at Jean's level, just at the limits of the tournament because then you can't argue Jean able to affect my team without arguing yourself above limits.

At the end of the day, you don't have the physicals to mess with Zahard and can't effect Zahard with any form of hax, while Coelacanth blasted through Baam's administrator shinsoo shields, meaning it's a guaranteed one-shot.