Classic Mid-Tier Tournament 1st Edition Round 1 - Maestromage vs Uncannyrewind - Open For Voting!

• Power negation refers to the act of directly and remotely disabling your opponent's abilities or powers. Conditional power negation, i.e adaptative evolution, immunity, chi blocking, or more specific and esoteric applications of this ability are allowed. The purpose here is to ensure the battle remains competitive by requiring at least some level of physical interaction between the characters, and not just making them instantly powerless.
• Power copying, power stealing, and power absorption are still completely banned.
• Once the battle starts you can only amp yourself by consuming/draining the opponents' various energies, but likewise I'll introduce some perks for protection if that happens to be your character's weakness.
• If you want to amp yourself during prep, you can do it through any means at all, so long as it doesn't surpass the amping limits. Which is multi-mountain level.
• You can not amp summons, constructs, fodder, or clones under any circumstances.
• Don't pick a character blatantly over the limits and try to justify them by saying you'll ignore their powers that are over the limits and just use what's allowed. How about you stop being lazy and look for a character that's allowed instead.
• BFR is allowed through physical strength, but self-BFR is not allowed. You have to have a physical presence on the battlefield at all times. Going into another dimension and staying there indefinitely (i.e Kamui or Mirror Master) while leaving an illusion of yourself present is only allowed for the purposes of intangibility or defense - it is NOT a win condition and you still have to fight.
• You can not BFR your teammates.
• Battlefields will be randomized unless you pick the Choose Battlefield perk. The parameters/bounds of the battlefield will be specified in every thread. With the perk, you can dictate starting distance and time of day. You can not choose a location that's over the limits.
  • What this means is you can't pick a place where the environment is beyond the durability/endurance limits of the characters and/or instantly surpasses their regeneration threshold. You also can't choose somewhere that's indestructible and try to fuse with it.
• Teamwork is not a factor but Perfect Teamwork is necessary for strategies that incorporate such.
• Time acceleration/deceleration can not exceed 1000x the normal speed or flow of time.
• Affecting the opponents during prep in any way is not allowed.

Let's get this out the way first.

From what I can gather from your post Jenny is lightning speed and Jake's speed is completely ambiguous to considering the fact that all you gave was a scan about keeping up with a speedster without ever specifying how fast said speedster is(for all I know he could be mach 6, mach 100 or FTL etc.) so I'll ignore him and talk mostly about jenny.

Didn't really bother going over Jack's speed in detail so I don't blame you. The speedster Jack fought doesn't have many feats, but his peer in Midnighter has a similar showing against a speedster who does, Impetus, taking him down without having access to his usual precognition. Impetus is fast enough to appear everywhere at once on the 35-mile wide and 50-mile long Carrier, a feat comfortably putting him in the vicinity of the upper limits of this tourney. Though as I said in my last post, these members of the Authority are generally peers in stats anyways.

Back to the speed if jenny is lightning speed then my team has a considerable advantage since both are quite a bit above that at mach 300(the maximum baseline for the tourney and that's if JB doesn't simply start draining life force from the surrounding to amp himself) meaning they are both carrying a considerable advantage in speed. They can get their main organization out of the way before jenny or jack can really start doing anything.

This is untrue. For one, the tourney doesn't allow for speed amping, but more importantly, mach 300 is in no way a significant or even noticeable increase in speed compared to the speed of lightning. That's kinda the entire point, the tourney is supposed to cap at lightning speeds, Mach 300 is just a nicer number and allows for some wiggle room. The actual difference between mach 300 and mach 286 is 5% which is negligible.

Now in term of justAPyour team seems rather lackluster to me.Jack'scombat options range from building to city level from what I can see none of which can even scratch JB who can tank attacks comparable to his own

I fail to see how given that I showed Jack dismembering characters who tanked mountain-level explosions with his bare hands, not even touching on his city manipulation which he often uses when his fists aren't enough. Jenny's showings speak for themselves, she is at the limits here and there's no real room for debate there. Arguing for a power advantage at all is strange to me, given that JBs feats are mountain-level, which whilst obviously impressive isn't game-breaking, and Hitler is sorely lacking in any feats of power at all. I know he's hax based but still, you showed zero feats of power and his single durability feat is genuinely just unimpressive, without any further shots to demonstrate the scale I'd say it's maybe town level? As is I'd be hard-pressed to say it's much better than the feat from the Gamorran supersoldiers, who Jenny and Jack both one-shotted numerous times with ease.

In regards to Jack's city attacks, I'd like to point out that the AP of his attacks with city structures isn't actually proportional to the amount of material he uses. A perfect example of this is him mutilating these same Gamorra super soldiers with walls and glass, despite them being obviously and hilariously above even building level. Jack has even said that a relatively small building fist would hit harder than he does. When controlling actually massive city structures, like when he turned Tokyo city into a giant mech, he was able to stomp 70th Century Kansas City, despite it no-selling a dozen nukes and shrugging off Jenny's mountain-sized lightning blast earlier in the same issue. So whether it's a smaller part of city infrastructure or entire buildings and city blocks being thrown at you, they're packing a punch either way.

Your only counter to getting blasted by Jenny is your characters' supposed "immunity" to lightning, which I am current unconvinced of. Let's start with JB.

I've already addressed the metropolis issue above but jenny frying any of my teams brain is dubious. For one I doubt JB has a brain seeing as how he's just a sword and last time we got a glimpse at his insides he's seemingly hollow containing some sort of horrifying abomination:

This doesn't exactly sell me. Though JB is technically a sword they very clearly have some biological functions, limbs and sensory organs and such, so I see no reason why they would just not have a brain or some kind of central nervous system just because they're a "monster".

There's also the fact that he has his own electric powers and regularly produces large quantities of electricity from his own body.

Having lightning powers does not magically make you immune to lightning. Sure, there are some characters like Laxus for which that is true, but the burden of proof is on you there. JB isn't no-selling multi-mountain level lightning bolts just because he said he was going to shoot lightning out of his hands those two times.

and as for Hitler everyone in the verse is basically immune to lightning to the point where the only effective lightning is one that steals life force.

This is even worse. First off, this lightning is really really just completely fearless from what you've shown. Tanking "lightning" does not somehow make you immune to all electrical abilities regardless of scale. Unless you're seriously trying to tell me that fodders in this verse are going to no-sell Indra's Arrow or blasts from cosmic Thor.

Secondly, I'd question whether this lightning is even a physical attack, to begin with. From what I can tell, this is some straight-up Yugioh-type "Urgh! I've lost my life points!" deal where it's intrinsically tied to their Mahjong games. I know that their powers extend beyond the game and whatever but you've genuinely presented zero bases upon which to claim that this lightning does in fact do physical damage, only everyone is immune I promise, as opposed to the far more likely explanation that the lightning that steals life points does in fact just steal life points. In all the examples I've seen the lightning never does any physical damage, even in the example you showed, it didn't even break the chair the guy was sitting on. Now, it's entirely possible that I'm wrong about this, I'm not an expert on this verse after all, but in that case, we're just back to the first point. Unless you can show Hitler tanking lightning attacks that are actually close to Jenny in power then he's just gonna get charred.

That aside, I do want to point out that Jenny has options beyond simply shocking folk. Her manipulation of all forms of electricity means that she can also manipulate the electrical energy inside someone's brain, draining it entirely and just making them brain-dead. So even if they really were both immune to electrical attacks, and that's a big ass if, that would still do absolutely nothing to prevent Jenny from just draining their bodies of electrical energy, instantly halting the functions of their brains and central nervous systems.

Figured I'll talk about this here too.

The carrieris also something I want to address as it is a ship and considering the fact that the battle takes place in the star wars verse I don't see how or why it would be present or accessible to your team. I don't see how thier whole base of operation would be accessible as gear for them to use its functions nor how it would cross over to a different franchises location nor why it would even be mentioned. This is the equivalent of someone using a justice league member claiming that they can call on the watchtowers teleportation in a separate battle on a different franchises earth. It makes no sense to me but for clarity I'll just ask@higherpowerif its allowed.

It's not actually an issue. You're right that the carrier itself isn't "standard gear" so to speak, but it doesn't need to be here to be useful as it can open doors across all alternate dimensions and universes. There's even a time when it accidentally takes the Authority to the "real world". So they should be more than able to still use their doors on Coruscant.

So let's address the elephant in the room. Yes, JB's weird and admittedly quite funny space-time summoning does prevent my team from enacting the hide and seek strategy I had planned. Though a little annoying, this isn't actually as hampering as you might expect.

Now the second issue is that of our location within a place jack can control. A lot of people like to go with favorable environment and that's really understandable but what they often fail to account for is the obvious solution to this which in our case is JB just teleporting himself and Hitler above the area(both can fly) they're in then blasting it into a desolate wasteland before either returning or simply waiting in the air. Large scale environment alteration through sheer firepower isnothing new to JBand there's really nothing stopping him from just glassing the area my team decides to stay in himself or dropping a meteor on it then hover over with Hitler.

First and foremost, this simply is not a viable strategy. The entire planet is the city, including an undercity that extends deep below the crust and almost reaches the core of the planet. JB can blow up as much as they please, all that's behind, or below or around it is just... more city. That's the beauty of this battlefield and why Jack is so dangerous here, outside of outright BFR it just isn't possible to remove him from the city because there is nowhere on this entire planet that isn't the city. So even if JB did this, it would accomplish nothing.

Upon arrival JB transports himself above the initial city then Hitler to himself at which point he completely glasses the immediate area through bombardments of his laser. Both still hovering above the empty wasteland can then have JB teleport your teams combatants straight to us which is where the fun begins.

My team has full knowledge of yours's capabilities and a considerable speed advantage over them coming into combat direct. Them being teleported to Hitler exposes them to a variety of passive effects or his attacks(which he can launch faster than either of them)

Secondly, this entire sequence of events is unrealistic given the starting conditions of this battle. Your strategy relies on your team doing a few things before engaging Jack and Jenny, some of which you haven’t addressed. The way I see it, it'll go something like this:

1. Spawn in and take in their environment.
2. Hitler takes his head out of the toilet.
3. Realise their teammate is missing.
4. Hitler will be confused and I assume start planning and considering his options but JB will probably just summon him down to level 1313.
5. Might be confused by that, might not, but they will then recognise relatively quickly that they’re in the middle of a city of some kind and that’s not great given Jack's abilities.
6. JB teleports them to the surface to get out from 1313, which I assume he can make in one shot.
7. JB then drops a meteor or an energy blast to destroy the nearby area.
8. Then he summons Jack and Jenny and he and Hitler attack them.

It’s easy to think of this as something they’ll do “instantly”, but when you actually break it down the only universe in which they get away with this is if you assume Jack and Jenny are literally just twiddling their thumbs doing sweet FA during all 8 of these steps. Which is not the case. You’ve failed to address the key factor of the initiative that comes with prep time and knowledge of the battlefield because what’s actually going to happen is that they’ll both be attacked during step 1, long before they have time to gather their bearings and regroup and make plans. I’m aware that your plans are very simple and hardly lengthy but they still require some time, and even a minute or two is time they do not have. The second the battle begins they’re going to start getting attacked and crushed by the buildings they’re in on top of getting a very nasty electric shock.

That aside, there are also a few issues with your strategy. You don’t have a "no friendly fire perk" so all of Hitler’s passive effects will hit JB long before they hit my team; how exactly are they dealing with those? Because if they can’t then Hitler just takes out JB before he even gets to fight my team, right? Similarly, JB’s hax isn’t all that easy to use. The transmutation beam can easily be blocked by any part of the city morphed by Jack since from what you’ve shown it doesn’t penetrate and just affects the first thing it hits, and their soul ripping from the scans you’ve shown is limited to melee range, which Jack and Jenny have no intention of getting into and they should be able to easily avoid doing so via their mobility options of phasing/moving through electronics and teleportation. Not to mention that one of the scans you showed had someone simply knock the sword away and stop their soul from getting sucked out that way relatively easily. Also, it's my understanding that Hitler can't simply will Heisenberg Strikes of maximum magnitude into existence, he needs to actively superimpose objects or ideas to pull this off, hence why others were able to avoid taking his full force by avoiding those situations in their Mahjong games. It's not a debilitating flaw but it's just another hurdle that will slow down their assault when they really can't afford to.

Didn't really bother going over Jack's speed in detail so I don't blame you. The speedster Jack fought doesn't have many feats, but his peer in Midnighter has a similar showing against a speedster who does, Impetus,taking him downwithout having access to his usual precognition. Impetus is fast enough to appeareverywhere at onceon the 35-mile wide and 50-mile long Carrier, a feat comfortably putting him in the vicinity of the upper limits of this tourney. Though as I said in my last post, these members of the Authority are generally peers in stats anyways.

In the very scan you show someone mentions that the speedster appearing to be everywhere is not by normal means which infers that it's not just by speed seeing as how it's mentioned that he's a speedster already.

This is then further made clear by the fact that said speedster is having a fight/beating up someone in a very specific spot at that very time this is being said which is shown in the very next panel

But also you're ignoring the fact that midnighters able to do so because even without his battle computer from the way he was talking its clear that he took him out by planning on it(he goes out of his way to list different factors) that regularly allows him to take on speedster who are he even specifically say are faster than him. Midnighter having precog tell him exactly where to be and what to do to stop the speedster is in no way an indication of his own pure speed which jack would scale to.

Hell even the claim of him being close enough peers to midnighter is dubius to me since in the very scan you posted the only hit Jack got in that landed was one that Midnighter allowed

Frankly Jack's speed is still completely shacky to me in all aspects from the initial speedsters feat to midnighter reacting to that and all the way to how comparable jack is to midnighter.

This feat and the scaling involved then get even further muddied by the fact that You never actually quantified it. You just gave the carriers length and width without actually quantifying the feat into actual speed(just a vague notion that it is somewhere in the upper limits of the tourney) which get kinda bad when we do try and quantify it:

Under the impression that the feat is done purely through speed and not unnatural means that only make it seem that way like I suggest then he would be moving so fast that someone with tech as advanced as angela and the carrier itself couldn't track him and only seemed to get the impression that he was everywhere at once. Assuming angela and the ship's means of getting sensory data are themselves capable of capturing images/sensing things at rate simply that of the most impressive high speed cameras of today or simply due to the fact that angela herself is superhuman then blitzing them to such a degree would net values way beyond the limits of this tourney

Simply put even assuming it's valid in the way you think it is, this feat was left unquantified by you and if it wasn't it would possibly be over the limits.

This is untrue. For one, the tourney doesn't allow for speed amping, but more importantly, mach 300 is in no way a significant or even noticeable increase in speed compared to the speed of lightning. That's kinda the entire point, the tourney is supposed to cap at lightning speeds, Mach 300 is just a nicer number and allows for some wiggle room. The actual difference between mach 300 and mach 286 is5%which is negligible.

The speed difference is an advantage in the sense that the character's I'm using like JB have abilities like teleportation while hitler already has precog, the difference in speed also adds validity to them dodging and evading your attacks through the added effects of these powers.

I fail to see how given that I showed Jack dismembering characters who tanked mountain-level explosions with his bare hands, not even touching on his city manipulation which he often uses when his fists aren't enough.

I'm not really seeing how that's the case at all. Specifically A mushroom cloud is no indication or proof of the actual explosion that Angie tanks potency. If it were then the explosion could potentially be well beyond mountain level when we judged it simply because of how large the mushroom cloud was. You never really gave any showing that would allow you draw the conclusion that it was mountain level in the first place just an image of a mushroom cloud and no real quantification for it. Are the peaks behind the explosion hills, sand dunes or mountains themselves? you never really gave any info to go off and just an assumption.

When JB bust's a mountain we know it's a mountain and they are called that specifically but even without that the feats there are simply more clear cut rather than a mushroom cloud of dubious potency.

When controlling actually massive city structures, like when he turned Tokyo city into a giant mech, he was able tostomp 70th Century Kansas City, despite itno-selling a dozen nukesand shrugging off Jenny's mountain-sized lightning blast earlier in the same issue. So whether it's a smaller part of city infrastructure or entire buildings and city blocks being thrown at you, they're packing a punch either way.

Your ignoring the fact that conventional weapons were like the nukes were useless and ineffective because they seemingly were stopped before they even touched the damn city. It seemingly has some form of defense preventing the nukes from actually hitting it.

while the city itself was getting effected and torn up by no name featless superhumans of all kinds

The City didn't "No sell" the nukes they never even touched the damn thing.

But back to jenny there something that you don't really address and its that Mountain sized =/= Mountain level. Her attack being mountain sized doesn't really mean anything if it has no feat of actually busting anything to begin with. Just being a big AOE doesn't mean it can bust a mountain unless feats are provided though the more pressing matter is that for her to even use lightning of that power at the ridiculous range you presented before she actually need to absorb/take control of that much lightning which she can't do while under the current Limits of multi mountain levels of power. The only scan you showed for her using Lightning at such a range required that she used lightning from that source at a level of power way over the tourney limits which you yourself even acknowledge in the post:

"but tourney rules cap her at multi-mountain level. Shame."

This doesn't exactly sell me. Though JB is technically a sword they very clearly have some biological functions, limbs and sensory organs and such, so I see no reason why they would just not have a brain or some kind of central nervous system just because they're a "monster".

JB "Biology" begins and ends when a joke is necessary;

To give an idea. Earlier on in the series JB was melted down because the group of bas guys wanted to extract what they thought would be the philosopher stone(turned out to be a kidney stone though an abnormally looking one and only a kidney stone in name from their machine since JB doesn't even eat food and eats souls and lifeforce instead) which they assumed was merged with his body. The result was him basically becoming a disembodied liquid.

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I highly doubt that JB has anything resembling or related to a nervous system or conventional organs and this makes sense since he's not a monster, he's a cursed sword.

JB's "Biology" is pretty much anything but biology:

Having lightning powers does not magically make you immune to lightning. Sure, there are some characters like Laxus for which that is true, but the burden of proof is on you there. JB isn't no-selling multi-mountain level lightning bolts just because he said he was going to shoot lightning out of his hands those two times.

I'd assumed he'd be immune since his main lightning attack which he created is to create an AOE around himself and electrocute everything inside

Also she doesn't have the range to actually reach him off the bat due to the Limit(as already outlined above) and when they are in combat JB can just dodge easily He can already keep up with lightning timer with the perk he's faster and your team is constantly suffering from the effects of Hitler Mahjong Power Level.

From what I can tell, this is some straight-up Yugioh-type "Urgh! I've lost my life points!" deal where it's intrinsically tied to their Mahjong games. I know that their powers extend beyond the game and whatever but you've genuinely presented zero bases upon which to claim that this lightning does in fact do physical damage, only everyone is immune I promise, as opposed to the far more likely explanation that the lightning that steals life points does in fact just steal life points.

The Lightning is just extension of the Mahjong abilities used in the series like which they can choose the form it comes in. Rising sun for example has been used in the form of both the light, the lightning and the explosion which usually comes after.

We know rising sun does physical damage as it completely disintegrated Lenin later in the series

But Hitlers body tanked and even stronger Final Rising Sun which uses the lightning as well as the explosion(though he succumbed to the life steal) without any issue(sorry for how long this image chain is the manga literally used up a full chapter just spelling out FINAL RISING SUN!!!)

Hell the Lightning can even send a person flying so clearly it's got physical damage attached to it

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We know that Rising sun causes physical damage(Shown with Lenin) and uses the Lightning, explosion and light and Hitler tanked an even stronger version of it(The Final rising sun) so it's very clear that the Lightning causes physical damage.

That aside, I do want to point out that Jenny has options beyond simply shocking folk. Her manipulation of all forms of electricity means thatshe can also manipulate the electrical energy inside someone's brain, draining it entirely and just making them brain-dead. So evenifthey really were both immune to electrical attacks, and that's a big ass if, that would still do absolutely nothing to prevent Jenny from just draining their bodies of electrical energy, instantly halting the functions of their brains and central nervous systems.

JB again likely doesn't have anything akin to a brain and if it did It would run on magic energy like everything else about him. I'd also like to point out that you're yet to even show feats of her doing this at a significant distance(assuming that of she could she could stun a lot of threats in the wildstorm verse at a distance with a handwave but she literally never does) and even if she did Hitler would just resurrect as well as have JB would heal him with the Dashi(a japanese cooking stock made of either dried kelp or dried tuna)sweat he can secret(showing again that "Biology" is a suggestion rather than a hard rule).

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It's not actually an issue. You're right that the carrier itself isn't "standard gear" so to speak, but it doesn't need to be here to be useful as it can open doors across all alternate dimensions and universes. There's even a time when it accidentally takes the Authority to the "real world". So they should be more than able to still use their doors on Coruscant.

I'm still not convinced at all. The entire base can't be considered standard gear and even if it can access "The real world" in relation to the Wildstorm/DC verse it doesn't really mean much in accessing a different franchise most of which when referring to the "Real world" only really work in relation to their own stories.

Though if we must go with this then sure enough JB can teleport either of them at any given point back to where we need them to be with the raise of his hand(unless you're going to try and go to another dimension etc. which he can still retrieve you from but would also be self BFR).

I'll start off just going through my own counters and a few comments here and there:

First and foremost, this simply is not a viable strategy. The entire planet is the city, including an undercity that extends deep below the crust and almost reaches the core of the planet. JB can blow up as much as they please, all that's behind, or below or around it is just... more city. That's the beauty of this battlefield and why Jack is so dangerous here, outside of outright BFR it just isn't possible to remove him from the city because there is nowhere on this entire planet that isn't the city. So even if JB did this, it would accomplish nothing.

You're not getting my point both JB and Hitler would be hovering far above the city the sky as both can fly and would likely be in the air which is why I repeatedly emphasized that they would be hovering. There might be nowhere in on the land that's not got some form of city but this becomes mute when both are teleported considerably high enough for it not to even matter.

Since the limit is beyond the upper atmosphere there pretty much a free range for hitler and JB to hover at ranging from 85 - 500+ km at max(JB doesn't really need to breath, hell he even lacks the organs for that and comparable Mahjong players to Hitler can even survive at least temporarily on the moon though he was already severely injured)

Secondly, this entire sequence of events is unrealistic given the starting conditions of this battle. Your strategy relies on your team doing a few things before engaging Jack and Jenny, some of which you haven’t addressed. The way I see it, it'll go something like this:

1. Spawn in and take in their environment.
2. Hitler takes his head out of the toilet.
3. Realise their teammate is missing.
4. Hitler will be confused and I assume start planning and considering his options but JB will probably just summon him down to level 1313.
5. Might be confused by that, might not, but they will then recognise relatively quickly that they’re in the middle of a city of some kind and that’s not great given Jack's abilities.
6. JB teleports them to the surface to get out from 1313, which I assume he can make in one shot.
7. JB then drops a meteor or an energy blast to destroy the nearby area.
8. Then he summons Jack and Jenny and he and Hitler attack them.

It’s easy to think of this as something they’ll do “instantly”, but when you actually break it down the only universe in which they get away with this is if you assume Jack and Jenny are literally just twiddling their thumbs doing sweet FA during all 8 of these steps. Which is not the case. You’ve failed to address the key factor of the initiative that comes with prep time and knowledge of the battlefield because what’s actually going to happen is that they’ll both be attacked during step 1, long before they have time to gather their bearings and regroup and make plans. I’m aware that your plans are very simple and hardly lengthy but they still requiresometime, and even a minute or two is time they do not have. The second the battle begins they’re going to start getting attacked and crushed by the buildings they’re in on top of getting a very nasty electric shock.

Well no, it's just easy for JB. All it takes is him simply raising his hand to summon hitler and he himself can teleport extremely easily.

You're making a fundamental mistake in your observation and lay out of steps. The fact of the matter is that Hitler's start is irrelevant since he and JB would be summoned at the same time not one after the other so all that really matter is what JB does. The real set of events would go down as this

1>Both spawn

2>JB's self Teleportation is pretty much instant like any other person in the verse so him reaching the the surface or high into the sky is going to happen instantly not even a much of a moment after At the same time you outline Hitler is supposedly takes his head out of the toilet.

3>JB teleports Hitler to his location right then into the sky(simply raising his hands) - At the same time they realize their teammate is missing(because that's what he's going to do)

4>JB then razes the city below(All it takes is a single moment and he can fire multiple lasers at once, at least 12 each of which can bust mountains)

5>JB summons jack and jenny into the air with them

You are very much overestimating what actually needs to be done to get them in position before summoning jack and jenny and are stacking what Hitler might be doing to emphasis that when all that matter is what JB does since both are going to be summoned at the same time doing things in tandem.

The steps you've outlined are grossly overinflated to make a false impression that my team has a stupidly long list of things to do when its all down to 4 things(not counting the moment of spawning in)

You don’t have a "no friendly fire perk" so all of Hitler’s passive effects will hit JB long before they hit my team; how exactly are they dealing with those?

Mahjong power level can be kept to not harm other individuals which is generally shown in most matches and is why people can actually go out to watch Mahjong without just dying while the contestants play. Though this also occurred when Hitler killed his own nazi's but left one alive to tell the tale

So essentially This isn't an issue since Hitler can designate what does and doesn't get affected by his Mahjong power.

The transmutation beam can easily be blocked by any part of the city morphed by Jack since from what you’ve shown it doesn’t penetrate and just affects the first thing it hits, and their soul ripping from the scans you’ve shown is limited to melee range, which Jack and Jenny have no intention of getting into and they should be able to easily avoid doing so via their mobility options of phasing/moving through electronics and teleportation.

So I'll go over this one at a time:

• City morphing blocking: not going to happen fast enough as both Jack and jenny are going to be BFR into the sky as I've been saying which means getting buildings or building parts for jack in particular to use to block would be too late before JB just Blast him or teleports behind him to blast him
• Phasing/moving through electronic: I'm rather sure that Jenny turning into electricity to phase isn't going to stop an attack which effects the soul rather than the body and drains life force which both have nothing to do with body damage(unless you've got feats to back this up), JB can get into melee range at any point through his own teleportation and since she's being summoned directly into the sky there are no electronics nearby for her to use that not going to happen fast enough
• Mobility: Both Hitler and JB are just as mobile as anyone on your team to keep up and JB can teleport himself as well as forcefully teleport them to him at any time while Hitler has precog.

All of this is happening while Hitlers passive's are active(causing both to faint, suffer heavy hemorrhaging and be disoriented with heart palpitations and difficulty breathing) and passively charms your team with a glance or locks them in an illusion on sight

Not to mention that one of the scans you showed had someone simply knock the sword away and stop their soul from getting sucked out that way relatively easily.

It isn't... Monika(the girl using the sword) isn't actually trying to kill the guy its being used on (Lucas her brother) she's only trying to show him what the sword can do and if she had dropped the sword while this was going on it would have eaten his soul meaning that she is actively preventing that from happening and what even prevents it from fully taking his soul

Hitting it away is a terrible idea and the only reason it worked here is because monika is actively restricting it and not trying to kill the person.

also, it's my understanding that Hitler can't simply will Heisenberg Strikes of maximum magnitude into existence, he needs to actively superimpose objects or ideas to pull this off, hence why others were able to avoid taking his full force by avoiding those situations in their Mahjong games.

It simply because Hitler want to play mahjong, It seemingly just a factor of the setting. It's why Hitler doesn't just take over the world by Mahjong crushing everyone instead of actually having matches.

But either way in Advanced Super Aryan Hitler can directly set and control the pieces as he wishes;

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All in all, if this was a straight fight Hitler and JB would have much better odds but with the circumstances of the battle being what they are, they're basically being split up and surprise attacked and there's a very good chance that they just get killed before they can really regroup.

This is unlikely as I've said above the steps you proposed were grossly inflated with stuff like what hitler would be doing when he and JB would spawn at the same time meaning only what JB does would matter as he is the one summoning hitler and has instant personal teleportation.

Even if they did regroup by your own arguments Hitler's Mahjong power would take out JB accidentally and at that point, he'd be left with no way of ever tracking down Jack or Jenny and would just be blasted from a range until he died.

Not the case as Hitler can designate what gets affected by his Mahjong power.

Even if by some miracle they successfully managed to team up and get Jack and Jenny to them, Hitler is much weaker than the other three combatants in terms of power/durability and is a weak link there as both members of my team could kill him relatively easily, and irrespective of stats or supposed immunities, Jenny can always just drain their brains of electrical activity and just make them mental vegetables.

Hitler can resurrect and JB can heal his body but even at that he is still going to passively knock out your team on arrival.

But even ignoring that you simply haven't addressed the fact that either of your team would be instantly charmed by the sight of Hitler alone(at which point he can steal thier souls) and the fact that he can put any of them in an illusion on sight alone.

Throughout your rebuttal you've near completely disregarded Hitlers mental and spiritual abilities in their fullest without any counter in sight.

You've also been very light on addressing how they deal with Acute Mahjong Intoxication which would make them pass out while causing them to severally hemorrhage.

You seem to be under the impression that when they pull jenny and jack to thier location that jenny would be faster on the draw to fry his brain before getting floored by any of his passive effects which is just frankly wrong.

But that won't happen because this battle begins with Jack warping the city around them, distorting gravity andtheir perceptionsas they're assaulted by the very floors they walk on and shocked into submission by Jenny's lightning. Full knowledge or not, I don't how they (Hitler especially) cope with that long enough to turn the battle around in their favour.

JB is just going to insta teleport into the air much higher above the cities and then pull hitler to himself.

I have to say, your arguments here are... weird. There's such a thing as a healthy scepticism but your arguments here (and only here mind you) go beyond that and into the realm of what honestly just feels like nitpicking. As an example:

I'm not really seeing how that's the case at all. Specifically A mushroom cloud is no indication or proof of the actual explosion that Angie tanks potency. If it were then the explosion could potentially be well beyond mountain level when we judged it simply because of how large the mushroom cloud was. You never really gave any showing that would allow you draw the conclusion that it was mountain level in the first place just an image of a mushroom cloud and no real quantification for it. Are the peaks behind the explosion hills, sand dunes or mountains themselves? you never really gave any info to go off and just an assumption.

When JB bust's a mountain we know it's a mountain and they are called that specifically but even without that the feats there are simply more clear cut rather than a mushroom cloud of dubious potency.

The feat in question is one where Angie face tanks an explosion that's very clearly comparable in size to the mountains in the background of the shot, and yet you stand by your initial statement that dismembering characters of this level is "lacklustre" because... it's an assumption? Like I'm genuinely trying to understand what your issue with the feat is but nowhere in that entire paragraph is an actual solid critique. This counter really just boils down to "well I don't really think it's mountain level". Which isn't a counter. Here's another example.

But back to jenny there something that you don't really address and its that Mountain sized =/= Mountain level. Her attack being mountain sized doesn't really mean anything if it has no feat of actually busting anything to begin with. Just being a big AOE doesn't mean it can bust a mountain unless feats are provided

How do I know that a mountain-sized lightning bolt is mountain level? Mate. Because it's mountain-sized. That, by definition, puts it in the mountain level tier. Though frankly, Jenny doesn't need to "bust" anything hear, nor have I argued her doing so. What I've actually been arguing for is her electrocuting your team, which is why I've used words like "charred" to describe what will happen. That said, I will say that Jenny's lightning bolts generally do destroy things relative to their size, whether that's a building or God's brain. Lastly, we have this gem.

Your ignoring the fact that conventional weapons were like the nukes were useless and ineffective because they seemingly were stopped before they even touched the damn city. It seemingly has some form of defense preventing the nukes from actually hitting it.

while the city itself was getting effected and torn up by no name featless superhumans of all kinds

The City didn't "No sell" the nukes they never even touched the damn thing.

Once again, the answer is hilariously obvious. If the city has defences that nukes couldn't get through, then guess what that means? It means that Jack with the Tokyo battlesuit clearly hits much harder than nukes, given that he wrecked it in a page flat. What exactly do you think happened? That Kansas very carefully blocked the nukes and then turned off its shields so that Jack could kill it easier? Come on now. Not to mention, and I really don't get how you didn't notice this, but mate the very fact that the featless and unnamed superhumans are in fact featless means that bringing them up is irrelevant. You can not even begin to imply that "well it got broken by these characters so clearly it's not all that" when this is literally the single appearance of all of them. Like, if they broke something that took a nuke that would just be a feat for them because how could it possibly be anything else?

[Slightly unrelated but the page that you posted also stated that Kansas could destroy the world in 72 hours, which (going by continents only) would mean destroying a city-sized area every second, and that does not account for the obvious travel time which would make that figure higher. I'm not exactly wanking here.]

All of these counters feel very wishy-washy, and I can't nail down any actual issues you have beyond just not really liking the feats. Which is your prerogative I suppose but doesn't really help in a debate. Not to mention, they all feel exceedingly hypocritical when you literally have the weakest character here by a mile in Hitler, a fact I brought up in my last post that you promptly ignored. Just a reminder, the only feat of his worth anything is this:

A feat for which the more I look at it the more I'm convinced is not significantly better that the Gamorran feat, which no matter your opinion on anything else is fodder to both my characters. The other feats you showed in relation to him were ragdolling a man and vaporising a person. Truly stunning, clearly I cannot hope to match this power.

The one thing I'll accept being unclear on is Jack's speed, though even that is not the grand problem you've made it out to be.

In the very scan you show someone mentions that the speedster appearing to be everywhere is not by normal means which infers that it's not just by speed seeing as how it's mentioned that he's a speedster already

Read again, what said is that he's on the carrier by abnormal means. Being everywhere at once is all him.

This is then further made clear by the fact that said speedster is having a fight/beating up someone in a very specific spot at that very time this is being said which is shown in the very next panel

Not really, the flow of events very clearly places this after the statement that's everywhere at once. Cleary he just, you know, moved?

But also you're ignoring the fact that midnighters able to do so because even without his battle computer from the way he was talking its clear that he took him out by planning on it(he goes out of his way to list different factors) that regularly allows him to take on speedster who are he even specifically say are faster than him. Midnighter having precog tell him exactly where to be and what to do to stop the speedster is in no way an indication of his own pure speed which jack would scale to.

As I already said, Midnighter did not have access to the battle computer here, Battalion had blocked his usage of it. That's why you see him thinking through his steps, which he would normally not have to do, and why the feat is one of speed and skill. And yes Impetus is faster than him, but clearly not by that much since Midnighter can still track and intercept him with some skilful movements.

Hell even the claim of him being close enough peers to midnighter is dubius to me since in the very scan you posted the only hit Jack got in that landed was one that Midnighter allowed

This isn't a terrible argument but it still feels needlessly critical. He's not exactly getting blitzed my friend, nothing about that fight indicates that these are two characters in different speed brackets, it's an example of what I meant when I said that these characters operate in the same tier. Not to mention, they clearly fought for more than the three punches we see, hence why later in the issue we see a recording of the fight in which Jack very clearly tags Midnighter and hence why they're both bleeding a lot when Apollo and Angie interrupt. If it really makes you feel better though, here's another example of them fighting with Hawksmoor again very clearly tagging him. Jack lost of course, but that's to be expected given Midnighter's superior skill and how insane the battle computer is. But for this part of the debate that doesn't actually matter, all that does is that Midnighter and Jack are relative to one another in speed.

This feat and the scaling involved then get even further muddied by the fact thatYou never actually quantified it. You just gave the carriers length and width without actually quantifying the feat into actual speed(just a vague notion that it is somewhere in the upper limits of the tourney) which get kinda bad when we do try and quantify it:

Also just kinda on me so fair. Though, in my head at least, it's not actually all that complicated a feat. The way I see it Impetus must be fast enough that the Carrier can't properly track him to a single location so he must be moving all over the ship. But he's also not literally "everywhere at once" because they'd be seeing him run past them. To cover enough distance that he's seemingly everywhere though he must also be running through all of the general sections in the ship, meaning he'd be covering most of the Carrier's circumference every couple of seconds, which would put him just a smidge above the tourney limits. More numerically since this is my last post and I'd like to be clear, this would put him somewhere from Mach 270-350, hence my opinion that the slightly slower Jack is in the same speed tier as everyone else here.

The speed difference is an advantage in the sense that the character's I'm using like JB have abilities like teleportation while hitler already has precog, the difference in speed also adds validity to them dodging and evading your attacks through the added effects of these powers.

Ok, well that means nothing since Jack and Jenny also have teleportation and much better mobility options outside of that. And Hitler's precog has about as many combat showings as Jack's does. That being none. There is a very big difference between predicting the future of a board game where you can clearly see all the moves being made and actively seeing the future to avoid attacks in combat that you otherwise couldn't even see coming, let alone dodge. The latter is something you've given zero feats for and from what I can tell that's because they don't exist.

Eh.

the more pressing matter is that for her to even use lightning of that power at the ridiculous range you presented before she actually need to absorb/take control of that much lightning which she can't do while under the current Limits of multi mountain levels of power. The only scan you showed for her using Lightning at such a range required that she used lightning from that source at a level of power way over the tourney limits which you yourself even acknowledge in the post:

You have very much misunderstood this feat. Jenny isn't amping herself to be able to manipulate electricity at a larger distance, that is the literal opposite of what is happening. Jenny's "amp" comes from using electricity beyond what she possesses herself, which in this instance is coming from a distance of hundreds if not thousands of miles. It's not an amp in the way you might be thinking, she's not taking in electricity and using it to buff up her own electrical powers, she's just taking electricity and using it as it is. The tourney limiting the volume of electricity she can gather is of absolutely no relevance. Looking at this image in particular, no matter how you slice it she's either using the electricity from the centre of its brain, which is a massive distance from her, to shoot outwards, or she's conducting electricity from even further in the general "skull" area and projecting it inwards. She has a ridiculous range either way.

JB "Biology" begins and ends when a joke is necessary;

To give an idea. Earlier on in the series JB was melted down because the group of bas guys wanted to extract what they thought would be the philosopher stone(turned out to be a kidney stone though an abnormally looking one and only a kidney stone in name from their machine since JB doesn't even eat food and eats souls and lifeforce instead) which they assumed was merged with his body. The result was him basically becoming a disembodied liquid.

Ok, but he does have an eye and he does also have a kidney stone, which ironically does prove at least some biological functions. You might say that that's inconsistent with the other bits but hey, that's what you get for picking an inconsistent gag character.

I'd assumed he'd be immune since his main lightning attack which he created is to create an AOE around himself and electrocute everything inside

You have somehow managed to say the exact same thing again and it still means nothing. You said your character is immune to electricity, I asked why and you said "because they can use electricity". Being able to manipulate something doesn't make you immune to it, that's basic common sense. The "he was going to hit himself" fails as further justification because a) this implies that the girl you said is a regular human is also "immune" to lightning, which is obviously not the case because the other guy clearly thinks she's an idiot and will kill them all, and b) because that's genuinely just not what the scan you posted says.

There's no mention of JB being inside the area, it's just "an area".

The Lightning is just extension of the Mahjong abilities used in the series like which they can choose the form it comes in. Rising sun for example has been used in the form of both the light, the lightning and the explosion which usually comes after.

We know rising sun does physical damage as it completely disintegrated Lenin later in the series

But Hitlers body tanked and even stronger Final Rising Sun which uses the lightning as well as the explosion(though he succumbed to the life steal) without any issue(sorry for how long this image chain is the manga literally used up a full chapter just spelling out FINAL RISING SUN!!!)

Hell the Lightning can even send a person flying so clearly it's got physical damage attached to it

Gallery

We know that Rising sun causes physical damage(Shown with Lenin) and uses the Lightning, explosion and light and Hitler tanked an even stronger version of it(The Final rising sun) so it's very clear that the Lightning causes physical damage.

Honestly not even convinced the final Rising Sun was anything other than a visualisation given that the next chapter just shows Hitler getting hit by the regular lightning and absolutely nothing about him or the surrounding area looking disturbed, let alone destroyed. Rising Sun killing one single normal human is so irrelevant it's not even funny. You have also once again completely failed to address my argument. Congratulations. Just going to quote what I said last time:

Tanking "lightning" does not somehow make you immune to all electrical abilities regardless of scale. Unless you're seriously trying to tell me that fodders in this verse are going to no-sell Indra's Arrow or blasts from cosmic Thor.

Unless you can show Hitler tanking lightning attacks that are actually close to Jenny in power then he's just gonna get charred.

Accepting that this lightning is indeed normal lightning just means that you're arguing for the equivalent of someone surviving a nuke because they tanked a hand grenade.

This. Is. Not. Enough.

If you don't have the feats you can just say you don't have the feats.

JB again likely doesn't have anything akin to a brain and if it did It would run on magic energy like everything else about him. I'd also like to point out that you're yet to even show feats of her doing this at a significant distance(assuming that of she could she could stun a lot of threats in the wildstorm verse at a distance with a handwave but she literally never does)

This is another very nitpicky argument that isn't actually an argument. Saying that Jenny maybe could have solved some imaginary hypothetical conflicts that she didn't solve because she didn't use her powers in a way that, let's be honest, would be boring as hell to read, means absolutely zilch. A character not using their powers to do something we know they can do does not in any way suddenly mean that they cannot do that, but what's worse is that you haven't even bothered to bring some examples. You've just said, "ok well there's probably some instances that exist somewhere when she could have more easily resolved conflict by using her powers like this." Like... ok? That's an awful way to argue that Jenny can't draw out electrical energy from a massive distance away when I have literally shown her doing precisely that incredibly explicitly with no issues.

and even if she did Hitler would just resurrect as well as have JB would heal him with the Dashi(a japanese cooking stock made of either dried kelp or dried tuna)sweat he can secret(showing again that "Biology" is a suggestion rather than a hard rule).

Huh? How exactly is he going to resurrect from brain death? Being able to fly back to his body as a soul is completely irrelevant when Jenny is crippling his physical form. He will literally be brain dead, soul or not. And unless JB's healing can add electricity to the body or bring back the dead (which tbh I wouldn't put past him) then that's not gonna help either.

I'm still not convinced at all. The entire base can't be considered standard gear and even if it can access "The real world" in relation to the Wildstorm/DC verse it doesn't really mean much in accessing a different franchise most of which when referring to the "Real world" only really work in relation to their own stories.

For this argument, I honestly don't really care about convincing you. As far as I'm concerned doors are standard gear and it's not outside of the realms of reasonable possibility for them to function in an alternate universe like this so that's that. There's nothing unique about being in the Star Wars universe that would make doors not work the way they do in all others.

Looking at it again the majority of your win conditions rely on this quite weak Nazi so let's look at them together.

Mahjong power level can be kept to not harm other individuals which is generally shown in most matches and is why people can actually go out to watch Mahjong without just dying while the contestants play. Though this also occurred when Hitler killed his own nazi's but left one alive to tell the tale

This is such a bizarre misinterpretation of the scene that I have to wonder if you've actually read this fight at any point in the last year. What's actually happening is pretty much the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. The Nazi Darius who died did so completely randomly and independently of any action taken by Hitler, it was a 100% passive side effect. He didn't "leave one alive to tell the tale", Mahjong power is just inconsistent with how it's applied. In the very next chapter after you claim Hitler "killed all his Nazis but left one alive," there are a boat load of spectators who are completely fine. In fact, I'd also like to bring up that this is one of two whole instances of people dying or actually being seriously debilitated by Mahjong power. At every other point before this, even in this exact same match, almost all of the spectators, who I'll remind you are normal dudes, were completely fine. So not only is Mahjong power not controllable, but it's also just ass.

All of this is happening while Hitlers passive's are active(causing both to faint, suffer heavy hemorrhaging and be disoriented with heart palpitations and difficulty breathing) and passively charms your team with a glance or locks them in an illusion on sight

Honestly having now read the first arc of the manga where Hitler appears, I can confidently say that this is just kinda bullsh**. Like, it might happen, I guess, but 99% of the time regular humans observed full power Hitler and were completely fine. This is the kind of ability that only ever works on the most fodder of fodder. Which... makes sense, actually. Mahjong Power isn't something inherently hax like Bleach's soul crush where you need a specific kind of power to resist it, it's literally just the side effect of one dude being more powerful than another. Which, I need not remind you, is not the case here. If anything Hitler is the significant weak link here in terms of power, having absolutely nothing worth anything to his name. So as far as I'm concerned this will do absolutely nothing to anyone here. Going by your interpretation though would just mean that Hitler would incapacitate JB so either way it works for me.

It isn't... Monika(the girl using the sword) isn't actually trying to kill the guy its being used on (Lucas her brother) she's only trying to show him what the sword can do and if she had dropped the sword while this was going on it would have eaten his soul meaning that she is actively preventing that from happening and what even prevents it from fully taking his soul

We can literally see his soul coming out of his body and he still has the capacity to smack the sword away, that's my point. Her lack of control doesn't change anything about what I actually said, that being that it relies on melee contact and isn't an instant win regardless.

It simply because Hitler want to play mahjong, It seemingly just a factor of the setting. It's why Hitler doesn't just take over the world by Mahjong crushing everyone instead of actually having matches.

But either way in Advanced Super Aryan Hitler can directly set and control the pieces as he wishes;

It is shocking how much you find that's wrong with just a little research. This is untrue, the Heisenberg Strike can literally miss if the pieces aren't set up properly, as it did with both Tristan and Hitler during their battle. If the technique didn't need setup they'd just one-shot everyone in every match. And wanting to play Mahjong as the reason for not wanting to kill people is also very silly as an argument in general since they literally kill each other in these matches. Heck, Hitler's own dudes have literally just attacked their opponents mid-match irrespective of the actual game.

But even ignoring that you simply haven't addressed the fact that either of your team would be instantly charmed by the sight of Hitler alone(at which point he can steal thier souls) and the fact that he can put any of them in an illusion on sight alone.

The charm is another ability that does nothing except against the most fodder of fodder and is mentioned or demonstrated a grand total of one single time. "Why doesn't Hitler always just charm and steal the souls of his opponents? :)". The illusion, Twilight of the Gods, is actually less of an illusion and more of dragging them to fight in some kind of Astral plane, which is probably not a great idea against the guy with the soul of the planet backing him up. Hitler can and has just lost those, as he did against the Pope, so it's hardly unbeatable. Also not really something I think he'd open a fight with but that's just me.

Throughout your rebuttal you've near completely disregarded Hitlers mental and spiritual abilities in their fullest without any counter in sight.

Yeah, because they suck and are an issue for you long before they're an issue for me.

You've also been very light on addressing how they deal with Acute Mahjong Intoxication which would make them pass out while causing them to severally hemorrhage.

^Ditto.

You seem to be under the impression that when they pull jenny and jack to thier location that jenny would be faster on the draw to fry his brain before getting floored by any of his passive effects which is just frankly wrong.

Hypocrisy much? You criticise me for apparently arguing that Jenny would be faster on the draw than Hitler's "passive effects" and yet have yourself repeatedly argued as if your team gets the first move when that is really really not the case.

Uh.

You're not getting my point both JB and Hitler would be hovering far above the city the sky as both can fly and would likely be in the air which is why I repeatedly emphasized that they would be hovering. There might be nowhere in on the land that's not got some form of city but this becomes mute when both are teleported considerably high enough for it not to even matter.

Since the limit is beyond the upper atmosphere there pretty much a free range for hitler and JB to hover at ranging from 85 - 500+ km at max(JB doesn't really need to breath, hell he even lacks the organs for that and comparable Mahjong players to Hitler can even survive at least temporarily on the moon though he was already severely injured)

Oh, ok well that's just a completely different argument then. What you initially said was that they're going to "glass the area my team decides to stay in", which would do nothing. Destroying the area doesn't even make sense as a concept if they're a hundred bloody kilometres in the air, so you can move the goal posts all you like but that doesn't make what you said before any less wrong. Also, I'd like to mention that Jack can do stuff like throwing the Eiffel Tower into space so simply being high up doesn't make you safe. Not that they'd get this far of course.

You've never really addressed a very pressing matter and that's the fact that once summoned Hitler canauto charmboth of your team into passivity ortrap them in an illusion on sightleaving room for him to either steal their souls or have JB finish them off. You never really addressed this part of Hitlers arsenal in any capacity so either you forgot or didn't see it.

Well hey, you never addressed Jack manipulating the city to debuff and confuse your team either. The difference is that one of these things is in play from the second the battle begins and the other is only a factor once several other hurdles are cleared and also is just as much of an issue for your teammate and also also probably might just not work anyways. You tell me which is worse.

Since we've gone over stats so much and this is the final post I'm going to go as in depth as possible. I'll be providing any necessary scans and context with as much detail as possible as well as presenting my points

The feat in question is one whereAngie face tanks an explosion that's very clearly comparable in size to the mountains in the background of the shot, and yet you stand by your initial statement that dismembering characters of this level is "lacklustre" because... it's an assumption? Like I'm genuinely trying to understand what your issue with the feat is but nowhere in that entire paragraph is an actual solid critique. This counter really just boils down to "well I don't really think it's mountain level". Which isn't a counter. Here's another example.

Since you missed "My issue" with the feat, You're clearly missing the point I'm making here which is that "The size of a mushroom cloud isn't a 1 to 1 with explosive potency". Before I get into the feat itself and my analysis of it I'm going to just provide a bit of context that will come in around later.

I'll establish the context in which we refer to stuff as City level, Mountain level etc in terms of potency. What's important are the titles(city, mountain etc) and the Value in Tons of TNT(Megatons etc):

The feat takes place in New mexico meaning that it's likely happening in the Sandia mountain range. I say this because this is the area with the closest visual similarity to the peaks in he feat that are in the area(though In the end it doesn't really matter since the highest peaks in new Mexico is at about 4013 Meters but isn't any where near visually similar to the peaks in the feat). So lets estimate the mountains are around 3255 Meters for its general height(if its sandia) as a normal range.

Back to the feat itself. I'll just post the mushroom cloud outright to make the visuals presented in the post

My main point has been that The size of a mushroom cloud is not a 1 to 1 with the potency of the explosions. Potency can in fact be ascertained by mushroom cloud size but as I've been saying it's not a 1 to 1 with the size of the mushroom cloud.

Source for the graph

The 15 megaton(city level) Castle Bravo explosion initially measured a mushroom cloud at a height of about 14,000 Meters in its initial expansion and reached higher values more in line with the graph shortly after. Compared to even the largest mountain in the world(Everest) which only reaches around 8,849 m its just barely short of 2x larger but the potency of the explosion isn't anywhere near mountain level and remains at the low end of city level.

Even if I'm generous and assumed the mushroom cloud is fucking 10x larger than the mountains in the image(3225x10=32,250Meters) it would still only be in the range of 30-40 megatons. Which is still nowhere near Mountain level even though I'm going to an extreme length highballing this to the stupid degree of a 10x multiplier for it's size. In truth this would probably be like 3 or 4 times larger (about 3225x4=12,900) so at the extreme low end of the megaton scale being small city level:

This feat with the most generous highball is within the low ends of city level and never reached mountain level in the first place.

Do you understand my 'issue' with this feat now? You can't just point at a mushroom cloud and say "Bigger than mountain = Mountain level", that's not how that works in the slightest when even a bomb with a yield at the lower end of city level makes a mushroom cloud that dwarfs fucking Mount Everest.

How do I know that a mountain-sized lightning bolt is mountain level? Mate. Because it's mountain-sized. That, by definition, puts it in the mountain level tier. Though frankly, Jenny doesn't need to "bust" anything hear, nor have I argued her doing so. What I've actually been arguing for is her electrocuting your team, which is why I've used words like "charred" to describe what will happen. That said, I will say that Jenny's lightning bolts generally do destroy things relative to their size, whether that'sa buildingorGod's brain. Lastly, we have this gem.

No it doesn't mountain level is when something has the capacity to destroy a mountain or is calced to have the potency at that level. The lightning bolt being big is no indicator of its potency by this logic a pyromancer creating a mountain sized fire ball is automatically mountain level even if we are yet to see such a feat of the fire ball actually busting anything at that level.

In god's brains case she's using electricity from within it and in both instanced the bolt doesn't actually completely bust the thing just tear holes through it. There's also a very obvious difference between the most vulnerable part of something body(it's brain) using energy from within it that it conducts properly by design and only a chunk of building(which is mostly hollow) and busting a chunk of solid rock that is a mountain.

But you've also just completely ignored the issue of range I brought up considering the only feat that jenny has that would even so much as present that she has the range to even capitalize and attack my team from the start of the match requires that she already is controlling enormous amounts of electricity which is bared from this tourney.

Once again, the answer is hilariously obvious. If the city has defences that nukes couldn't get through, then guess what that means? It means that Jack with the Tokyo battlesuit clearly hitsmuchharder than nukes, given that he wrecked it in a page flat.

What exactly do you think happened? That Kansas very carefully blocked the nukes and then turned off its shields so that Jack could kill it easier? Come on now. Not to mention, and I really don't get how you didn't notice this, but mate the very fact that the featless and unnamed superhumans are in fact featless means that bringing them up is irrelevant. You can not even begin to imply that "well it got broken by these characters so clearly it's not all that" when this is literally the single appearance of all of them. Like, if they broke something that took a nuke that would just be a feat for them because how could it possibly be anything else?

No it just means that it has specific anti nuke defenses as we again see moments later unnamed and featless superhero's of all kind tearing the ship up.

There no focus brought to some kind pf shield that needs breaking or destroying to damage the ship and the only thing even so much as stopped is nukes.

What I think happened is that the city was sent back anticipating conventional fire power(nukes etc) and had a specific defense for that and wasn't expecting superhumans at all. This make sense since Jack himself was specifically created to stop that thing(hell his creators thought had made that clear) and his presence is what set the whole gathering of hero's to stop it in the first place by being that he was what alerted it.

Even if you want to go out of your way to say there is a specific shield that needed breaking before damaging the ship. Jack wouldn't even scale to that considering the fact that the supposed shield clearly isn't there by the time jack attacks Kansas as we see numerous individuals attacking the city directly with no issue or need to break anything. Since you're so Ok with accepting that the random featless superhuman are at that level of power then whats to say they didn't already break the shield since they can attack the ship just fine.

[Slightly unrelated but the page that you posted also stated that Kansas could destroy the world in 72 hours, which (going by continents only) would mean destroying a city-sized area every second, and that does not account for the obvious travel time which would make that figure higher. I'm not exactly wanking here.]

Without context this could range from Kansas simply traveling to high population inhabited area's only and blowing them away one by one which actually seems in line with it since Kansas was heading to the closes city first.

The statement itself is also just dubious as any other "Destroy the world" statement baring no context.

It's not hypocritical when I never once claimed hitlers durability was otherwise way beyond what I showed and you saying this is laughable when you never even gave any durability feats for jenny sparks to begin with and she is literally below hitler in that regard:

Gallery

Throughout this entire CAV where you've given 3 full post's not once have you ever even brought a single durability feat for Jenny. You've brushed that off without any though either because you forgot or simply didn't have any feats close to relevant to give yet here you are harping on about Hitlers lackluster durability.

At least he has a durability feat compared to the other member of your team

To cover enough distance that he'sseeminglyeverywhere though he must also be running through all of the general sections in the ship, meaning he'd be covering most of the Carrier's circumference every couple of seconds, which would put him just a smidge above the tourney limits. More numerically since this is my last post and I'd like to be clear, this would put him somewhere from Mach 270-350, hence my opinion that the slightly slower Jack is in the same speed tier as everyone else here.

Your outright ignoring the main issue I had which lead me to say it was far above tourney limits: The fact that he's performing this feat on someone that is already superhuman and something that is likely better than modern day high speed cameras

The issue with this is feat that has it far beyond the limit is that he's doing this and appearing to be like everywhere to a superhuman(angie) who regularly keeps up with other members of the authority and the carrier(an advanced alien ship). Even lowballing them both to the capacity of modern days high speed camera the speedster would be far beyond the tourney Limits that any scaling to him is a clear indication of you picking a character above that.

As I already said, Midnighter did not have access to the battle computer here, Battalion had blocked his usage of it. That's why you see him thinking through his steps, which he would normally not have to do, and why the feat is one of speed and skill. And yes Impetus is faster than him, but clearly not bythatmuch since Midnighter can still track and intercept him with some skilful movements.

And my point was that midknighter isn't outspeeding him just with his own skill predicting when and where to attack to cut the speedster off. If Midnighter was actually in his speed bracket he would simply grab him without any need for that at all.

This isn't a terrible argument but it still feels needlessly critical. He's not exactly getting blitzed my friend, nothing about that fight indicates that these are two characters in different speed brackets, it's an example of what I meant when I said that these characters operate in the same tier. Not to mention, they clearly fought for more than the three punches we see, hence why later in the issue we seea recording of the fight in which Jack very clearly tags Midnighterand hence why they're both bleeding a lot when Apollo and Angie interrupt.

You yourself outline that its a recording meaning there's really no reason to assume that its anything other than a recording of the moment when jack actually gets a single hit in

If it really makes you feel better though,here's another example of them fighting with Hawksmoor again very clearly tagging him. Jack lost of course, but that's to be expected given Midnighter's superior skill and how insane the battle computer is. But for this part of the debate that doesn't actually matter, all that does is that Midnighter and Jack are relative to one another in speed.

You mean the same fight where jack only gets 1 hit in then midnighter stops playing around says "shows over" and then completely dodges jacks kick while not focusing on him and taking him out near instantly

Also just kinda on me so fair. Though, in my head at least, it's not actually all that complicated a feat. The way I see it Impetus must be fast enough that the Carrier can't properly track him to a single location so he must be moving all over the ship. But he's also not literally "everywhere at once" because they'd be seeing him run past them. To cover enough distance that he'sseeminglyeverywhere though he must also be running through all of the general sections in the ship, meaning he'd be covering most of the Carrier's circumference every couple of seconds, which would put him just a smidge above the tourney limits

I wouldn't say a smudge when he's doing it to the perception of angie. Who is a combatant in this tourney themselves which is even compounded when you yourself say that the members of the authority are comparable.

You keep on ignoring the main fact that I bring up(hell you don't even address it) which is that angie(who is comparable to other members of the authority) is the one getting her perception blitzed while he does it.

Ok, well that means nothing since Jack and Jenny also have teleportation and much better mobility options outside of that.

Jack an jenny's teleportation relies on portals opened by them saying "door" which I'm still skeptical of because again its the carrier itself and is like saying that any memeber of the justice league being used can just have access to the justice leagues boomtube tech which is reliant on the presence of the Watch Tower(which obviously isn't standard gear)

adding to this is that JB's teleportation is better and he can instantly recall them at any point to anywhere around him(without them knowing which would obviously be shocking and disorienting) by simply raising his hands. Not only displaying greater mobility and also greater control but also simply more responsive since all it takes is a thought.

And Hitler's precog has about as many combat showings as Jack's does. That being none. There is a very big difference between predicting the future of a board game where you can clearly see all the moves being made and actively seeing the future to avoid attacks in combat that you otherwise couldn't even see coming, let alone dodge.

This right here is outright ignoring the mechanics of how Hitlers precog works. Hitler himself considers analytical prediction and reading the likes of which you have described as nothing more than gambling

The latter is something you've given zero feats for and from what I can tell that's because they don't exist.

The later is the exact mechanic by which hitlers precog works, You'd have to be outright blind or willfiully ignorant to miss the fact that Hitler has actual precog which works by looking into the future

Hitlers precog is without a question not reading or any form of analytical prediction based on outside value. Hitler outright denounces it as inferior and they go out of their way in the story to say that he's looking at the future of the space-time continuum. You can't just outright ignore how hitlers powers work because you don't like it, the mechanics are clear and there no denying that. The distinction is made loud and clear in the series.

You have very much misunderstood this feat. Jenny isn't amping herself to be able to manipulate electricity at a larger distance, that is the literal opposite of what is happening. Jenny's "amp" comes from using electricity beyond what she possesses herself, which in this instance is coming from a distance of hundreds if not thousands of miles. It's not an amp in the way you might be thinking, she's not taking in electricity and using it to buff up her own electrical powers, she's just taking electricity and using it as it is. The tourney limiting thevolumeof electricity she can gather is of absolutely no relevance. Looking atthis imagein particular, no matter how you slice it she's either using the electricity from the centre of its brain, which is a massive distance from her, to shoot outwards, or she's conducting electricity from even further in the general "skull" area and projecting it inwards. She has a ridiculous range either way.

That wasn't my point. It was that jenny actively needs to be controlling "That much" electricity to have it fill and be used at that range/aoe.

At no other point in the authority(issues that have her since she died by the end of the the 1999 run, so 1999 and secrete history) does she ever control electricity at such a range.

Even at that, your best guess of her range is between 100s of miles to thousand without any real quantification and if we take this as the range possibly being from 100s to 3000 miles that still wouldn't even be enough range to be useful from the start of the match considering the location's you yourself picked

These are the distances that she would be from either of my characters. The first calc uses Coruscant's Diameter that I could find from the star wars wiki and the other assumes it has a diameter similar to that of earth.

If her range is at max 3000miles(4828.032 KM) she would still be short of ever even reaching either of my team.

You've just overestimated her range without even considering the distance you set between the character to any degree.

Jenny can't even do anything from the start of the match since you fumbled and overestimated her.

Ok, but he does have an eye and he does also have a kidney stone, which ironically does prove at least some biological functions. You might say that that's inconsistent with the other bits but hey, that's what you get for picking an inconsistent gag character.

It isn't actually a kidney stone, The joke is that the machine analyses it as one but it neither looks like one nor and is not called on by the characters that get it. That's the joke of the chapter.

He's a magical curse sword which has literally been melted down and show no sign of internal biological structures and even at that he runs on magical energy so there's literally no point at which conventional biology comes into the mix in a conventional way

You have somehow managed to say the exact same thing again and it still means nothing. You said your character is immune to electricity, I asked why and you said "because they can use electricity". Being able to manipulate something doesn't make you immune to it, that's basic common sense. The "he was going to hit himself" fails as further justification because a) this implies that the girl you said is a regular human is also "immune" to lightning, which is obviously not the case because the other guy clearly thinks she's an idiot and will kill them all, and b) because that's genuinely just not what the scan you posted says.

There's no mention of JB being inside the area, it's just "an area".

The reason the character says their gonna kill everyone there is because they are in the same place close to JB and Monika clearly(as he and everyone else is literally standing either right next to her or in the vicinity) which is clearly indicating to anyone reading that the intended AOE is around them:

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Honestly not even convinced the final Rising Sun was anything other than a visualisation given thatthe next chapter just shows Hitler getting hit by the regular lightning and absolutely nothing about him or the surrounding area looking disturbed, let alone destroyed. Rising Sun killing one single normal human is so irrelevant it's not even funny. You have also once again completely failed to address my argument. Congratulations. Just going to quote what I said last time:

Accepting that this lightning is indeed normal lightning just means that you're arguing for the equivalent of someone surviving a nuke because they tanked a hand grenade.

This. Is. Not. Enough.

If you don't have the feats you can just say you don't have the feats.

This literally makes no sense is your own assumptions based on nothing.

Hell before this the man using rising sun causes a personalized Saint Elmo's Flame. Which is a natural phenomena that indicates an imminent Lightning strike

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And later on Mao uses the Lightning to bust a pair of tesla coils his opponent is wearing

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Only for the opponent to counter by having implanted other tesla coils directly inside his arm which Mao can't bust due to the resistance

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Clearly showing that A) The lightning does normal physical damage and B) that the mahjong players are resistant to that

Accepting that the Lightning does normal damage just means it can then be scale using Mahjong power level. Since the explosion Hitler tanked is around where he had the highest Mahjong power level and the minimum for the Pope is about 2000ADH while by the fight where his body tanks rising sun he the weakest there(tristan) is about 32,000 ADH(well use this as a baseline), The lightning should be about 16x that

This is another very nitpicky argument that isn't actually an argument. Saying that Jenny maybe could have solved some imaginary hypothetical conflicts that she didn't solve because she didn't use her powers in a way that, let's be honest, would be boring as hell to read, means absolutely zilch.

These aren't hypothetical situation but instead main story situations that the authority face and you end up saying:

"Why doesn't Hitler always just charm and steal the souls of his opponents?"

Huh? How exactly is he going to resurrect from brain death? Being able to fly back to his body as a soul is completely irrelevant when Jenny is crippling his physical form. He will literally be brain dead, soul or not. And unless JB's healing can add electricity to the body or bring back the dead (which tbh I wouldn't put past him) then that's not gonna help either.

You realize that the brains nuero-chemistry malfunctions then stops after any normal form of death and that the electricity within also ceases so right?

Any form of death causes the electricity in the brain to shortly after cease and since hitler can resurrect from this it doesn't matter if she drains his mind or not.

Not like it mattered either way since she doesn't have the range to reach him from the start of the match and if she's ever in his presence she would instantly get ganked by the passives

for this argument, I honestly don't really care about convincing you. As far as I'm concerned doors are standard gear and it's not outside of the realms of reasonable possibility for them to function in an alternate universe like this so that's that. There's nothing unique about being in the Star Wars universe that would make doors not work the way they do in all others.

Again you simply refused to actually address the point which is that it doesn't make any sense and is equivalent to any member of the justice league having access to the watchtowers boomtube tech during a conventional battle outside their franchise. It makes 0 sense and is frankly a grasp at something that isn't there.

This is such a bizarre misinterpretation of the scene that I have to wonder if you've actually read this fight at any point in the last year. What's actually happening is pretty much the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.The Nazi Darius who died did so completely randomly and independently of any action taken by Hitler, it was a 100% passive side effect. He didn't "leave one alive to tell the tale",

The better example to use is Mask of Mahjong. It's made abundantly clear that Mahjong players can a control their mahjong power level and direct it. Mask of Mahjong loses conrtol of his mahjong power level(cause he's was technically already dead but resurrected) and starts releasing it onto the audience in the area, It's made abundantly clear that the sole source of the issue is him yet Shinjou is completely fine(meaning he isn't reducing his yet is capable of not exerting it on others) while mask of mahjong starts doing so without control

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Mahjong power is just inconsistent with how it's applied. In the very next chapter after you claim Hitler "killed all his Nazis but left one alive,"there are a boat load of spectators who are completely fine.

Honestly having now read the first arc of the manga where Hitler appears, I can confidently say that this is just kinda bullsh**. Like, itmighthappen, I guess, but 99% of the time regular humans observed full power Hitler and were completely fine. This is the kind of ability that only ever works on the most fodder of fodder.

This right here shows that you don't really understand Mahjong power level. The effects of acute Mahjong intoxication rely on the "difference" between the relevant people.

If x has a mahjong power of 2000 and Y has a mahjong power of just 10, the difference between them is 1990 Adh meaning the only effect relevant to them would be those of difference 0-50 up to 500-2000( which aren't that much of an issue).

This fact that others in the verse have mahjong power levels that can allow them to stay and watch matches is made very clear by the fact that when Acute Mahjong intoxication does infact happen they specifically tell those of mahjong power to low to leave

Mahjong power isn't even really being inconsistent in the first half of the story since during the first half of the story(up till after the fight with the pope) Hitler would have had the highest mahjong power level shown but at the time only had a power level of 2038.

The reason 'Regular people' or those you called fodder weren't affected by the deadly effects during the earlier parts of the story is because nobody had a high enough mahjong power level to invoke those more sever effects and the reason not everyone dies later on is because not everyone present has such a low mahjong power level that the difference is deadly to them.

By the second half of the story Hitlers Mahjong power level should be comparable to Tristan(since they play together) and he had a powerlevel of more than 30,000

You've seemingly just skimmed the series without taking in various key moments of context and then assumed you'd found some fault in the power.

Which... makes sense, actually. Mahjong Power isn't something inherently hax like Bleach's soul crush where you need a specific kind of power to resist it, it's literally just the side effect of one dude being more powerful than another. Which, I need not remind you, is not the case here. If anything Hitler is the significant weak link here in terms of power, having absolutely nothing worth anything to his name. So as far as I'm concerned this will do absolutely nothing to anyone here. Going by your interpretation though would just mean that Hitler would incapacitate JB so either way it works for me.

Mahjong power level has nothing to do with physical strength, durability etc. As the very name implies it has to do with Mahjong, its the measure of ones ability to play and win at mahjong though with some room for difference between each individual. The "More powerful" in the context of mahjong power level is how much better at mahjong they are. I'd assumed that you would grasp this by the fact that it is called MAHJONG power level

The "Power" in the context of Mahjong Power level is not physical power just ones proficiency in Mahjong+ a seeming bracket of about 8ADH accounting for individual difference.

You likely haven't read far enough and it shows. You don't even know what Mahjong Power level even is yet.

We can literally see his soul coming out of his body and he still has the capacity to smack the sword away, that's my point. Her lack of control doesn't change anything about what I actually said, that being that it relies on melee contact and isn't an instant win regardless.

did you miss the part where she is actively just trying to show him how the sword works and that if she wasn't restricting the sword it would have eaten his soul the instantly she dropped it. It isn't "slow" she's trying to show him how it works and not actually full remove his soul while the sword is easily capable of doing so instantly the moment she drops it

It is shocking how much you find that's wrong with just a little research. This is untrue, the Heisenberg Strike can literally miss if the pieces aren't set up properly, as it did with both Tristan and Hitler during their battle.

If the technique didn't need setup they'd just one-shot everyone in every match. And wanting to play Mahjong as the reason for not wanting to kill people is also very silly as an argument in general since they literally kill each other in these matches. Heck, Hitler's own dudes have literally just attacked their opponents mid-match irrespective of the actual game.

This here is just an outright lie

In his match with the Nazi decenters when Speidel insults Hitler and the pop he instantly performs the Heisenberg strike and kills him without any tiles or formation of tiles and we know for a fact that he didn't have any because it was only after that moment that he actually pressed the shuffling machine and picked his own tile to initiate an actual move(which was reich Blitz-krieg).

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He quite clearly has the capacity to do so but the series is based in Mahjong battles so he mostly plays mahjong. Also tristan never uses the heisenberg strike because he can't

Here he is attacking and killing his opponent with the Heisenberg strike mid-match without even picking his tile for his turn of play clearly as plain as day.

The charm is another ability that does nothing except against the most fodder of fodder and is mentioned or demonstrated a grand total of one single time.

This has nothing to do with whether you're team can resist it or not and I'm starting to thing you say this because they have no feats to prevent it from working. It's hax it doesn't work based on ap or durability and even if it were to work of a metric that would be mahjong power level.

Mahjong power level itself is no indicator of stats so even if we want to bend over backwards and say it's reliant on mahjong power level no one on your team would have a capacity anywhere beyond 2-10 due to their lack of knowledge on how to play and aptitude. There's also the fact that other people in the verse resisting it has nothing to do with your own teams capabilities when you are still yet to provide any feats of them doing such. it just means those people have resistance to such a thing.

Like what even is your point here????? That I need to show it working on a brick for it to work on your team? It's hax/mind hax at that and the people resisting it clearly have a resistance to it with that being a feat to show for them unlike your team.

You are yet to provide a single feat that would prevent it from working and this lackluster barely reasonable response is a clear indicator of that.

. "Why doesn't Hitler always just charm and steal the souls of his opponents? :)".

"Why does jenny not just insta-drain the brain of every opponent in the comic across a city wide range(the numerous times the superhumans from genosha attacked cities she was in) if you think she's capable of doing so from what would be continental ranges here? ;)"

The illusion, Twilight of the Gods, is actually less of an illusion and more of dragging them to fight in some kind of Astral plane, which is probably not a great idea against the guy with the soul of the planet backing him up. Hitler can and has just lost those, as he did against the Pope, so it's hardly unbeatable. Also not really something I think he'd open a fight with but that's just me.

The pope can use twilight of the gods himself and can actually also use it. as shown when he trapped hitler in one moments after Hitler ended his

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And the pops feat of resisting it has nothing to do with your team unless they have their own equivalent or better resistance feats to bring to the table. Judging by the fact you didn't post any it's clear they don't.

These are very clear shallow diversion meant to allow you to keep from mentioning the fact that no one on your team has any equivalent resistance feats to these things.

After all this you are still yet to provide a single resistance feat for anyone on your team.

Yeah, because they suck and are an issue for you long before they're an issue for me.

This is almost just childish and you are again diverting from mentioning the fact that either way no one on your team has any resistance feats.

Frankly I've never seen this kind of tactic in a CAV before. One where you provide absolutely no feats for your characters in question that would indicate they can resist a hax and then say what amounts to "we'll physically weaker people can resist it" as if this isn't mind hax which obviously ignores physicals.

Like wow its almost like that's how we gauge if someone has resistance or not, you know when they have feats of resisting a thing....

Hypocrisy much? You criticise me for apparently arguing that Jenny would be faster on the draw than Hitler's "passive effects" and yet have yourself repeatedly argued as if your team gets the first move when that is really really not the case.

I'm not arguing as if my team get "first move" when this isn't a chess game but both are faster to some degree and one can instantly teleport and summon his ally instantly while the other has precog. All it requires is an instant to for jb to teleport himself then hitler and they can clearly and easily do so.

You've reached your final post and are still yet to provide a single resistance feat for your team and judging from the fact that you've resorted to what essentially again amounts to "Well this physically weaker person resisted this physicals ignoring hax, imma just ignore the fact that it's just a showing of their own personal hax resistance" you clearly lack any in that department.

Instead of rewarding people just for making it to the second round, I've decided to implement a system that rewards voting, in order to ensure we get votes on all matches.

• If you're a participant, there are 7 total possible matches you can vote on, excluding your own. If you're a reserve you can vote an all 8.
• If you vote on 2 matches (to my satisfaction) you can change a perk going into the next round
• If you vote on 4 matches you can add a perk
• If you vote on all of them you can swap a character
• Win by death, knockout, incapacitation, or BFR.