Composite Link (Legend of Zelda - excludes over-limit stuff like The Fierce Deity's Mask)
Perks:
30 Minutes of Prep
Mental Immunity
Limits
The physical strength of an individual character, whether striking or lifting, can not exceed large mountain busting (3000 meters).
The physical durability and endurance of a character can not exceed the strength limit.
Reaction speed, combat speed, travel speed, and the speed of any attacks or abilities that travel can not be faster than lightning (Mach 286, can round to Mach 300).
Destructive Capacity and Attack Potency are also restricted to the strength limits.
Restrictions
No reality warping.
No conceptual manipulation, or concept-based attacks like existence erasure.
No causality manipulation, or any interference with the laws of the universe.
No probability or luck manipulation.
No power stealing, copying, or negation.
No amping stats beyond the limits, including through weapons, skill, or martial techniques.
No death manipulation or instant death attacks.
No remote transmutation or transformation (not requiring physical contact), other forms of matter manipulation are allowed.
You can amp yourself to the multi-mountain level (2-3 mountains) through draining, but once you reach them further draining will only serve to debuff your opponents.
Precognition/future sight is limited to 5 seconds.
Cloning is limited to 10, can only be used by 1 character, and clones can not make clones.
Summons, constructs, and fodder are limited to 10 and can not be stronger than the character that summons them. Nor can they possess hax that ignores durability.
TK is restricted to the strength limit.
Regeneration is allowed, but if a character is either A) reduced beyond visual recognition without enhanced sight, or B) scattered beyond the confines of the battlefield, they're considered at least KO'd.
BFR can only be accomplished through physical force. Not teleportation, portals, or powers outside of strength. It operates on ring-out principles so once the moment your opponent forces you out of bounds you become instantly disqualified, even if you can return to the battlefield in a reasonable time frame. Battlefields will be specified in every thread.
Time manipulation is allowed, but is restricted to accelerating time, slowing down time, rewinding/looping time, or summoning clones from the timestream. Clones follow the cloning limits. Any other form of time manipulation is banned.
Telepathy is allowed, but is restricted to mind-reading, memory altering, illusions, hypnosis, paranoia, pacification (forced tranquility, docility or dream-state), fear/nightmare inducement, or hallucinations. Anything else, or allowed functions at a high tier level, (continental and above) is banned.
Soul manipulation is allowed but is restricted to removal or altering and can't exceed the range of the battlefield.
Space manipulation is allowed, but vector manipulation is banned and everything else can't exceed the range of the battlefield.
Rules
1 week to post openers, 10 days for rebuttals. You can request up to a 3-day extension in either case. The opener time limit applies to both users concurrently.
No more than 3 posts.
You need a completed CaV or tourney to join.
Don't join if you don't intend to see it through.
Characters are whatever version fits the limits, if it needs to be composite then sure.
My word is final of course.
Voting Incentives
Instead of rewarding people just for making it to the second round, I've decided to implement a system that rewards voting, in order to ensure we get votes on all matches.
If you're a participant, there are 7 total possible matches you can vote on, excluding your own. If you're a reserve you can vote an all 8.
If you vote on 2 matches (to my satisfaction) you can change a perk going into the next round
If you vote on 4 matches you can add a perk
If you vote on all of them you can swap a character
Win by death, knockout, incapacitation, or BFR.
In-depth Limit Clarifications
Power negation refers to the act of directly and remotely disabling your opponent's abilities or powers. Conditional power negation, i.e adaptative evolution, immunity, chi blocking, or more specific and esoteric applications of this ability are allowed. The purpose here is to ensure the battle remains competitive by requiring at least some level of physical interaction between the characters, and not just making them instantly powerless.
Power copying, power stealing, and power absorption are still completely banned.
Once the battle starts you can only amp yourself by consuming/draining the opponents' various energies, but likewise I'll introduce some perks for protection if that happens to be your character's weakness.
If you want to amp yourself during prep, you can do it through any means at all, so long as it doesn't surpass the amping limits. Which is multi-mountain level.
You can not amp summons, constructs, fodder, or clones under any circumstances.
Don't pick a character blatantly over the limits and try to justify them by saying you'll ignore their powers that are over the limits and just use what's allowed. How about you stop being lazy and look for a character that's allowed instead.
BFR is allowed through physical strength, but self-BFR is not allowed. You have to have a physical presence on the battlefield at all times. Going into another dimension and staying there indefinitely (i.e Kamui or Mirror Master) while leaving an illusion of yourself present is only allowed for the purposes of intangibility or defense - it is NOT a win condition and you still have to fight.
You can not BFR your teammates.
Battlefields will be randomized unless you pick the Choose Battlefield perk. The parameters/bounds of the battlefield will be specified in every thread. With the perk, you can dictate starting distance and time of day. You can not choose a location that's over the limits.
What this means is you can't pick a place where the environment is beyond the durability/endurance limits of the characters and/or instantly surpasses their regeneration threshold. You also can't choose somewhere that's indestructible and try to fuse with it.
Teamwork is not a factor but Perfect Teamwork is necessary for strategies that incorporate such.
Time acceleration/deceleration can not exceed 1000x the normal speed or flow of time.
Affecting the opponents during prep in any way is not allowed.
Battlefield - Vaizel
Opponents start on opposite hands. Outside the labyrinth is ring out.
Feng Shen Ji is a fantastic but largely underrepresented verse on the Vine. Centred around humanity's struggle against an oppressive race of all-powerful gods, it features amazing art, an engaging story, some brilliant characters and amazing action sequences. If nothing else, I hope repping a team of characters exclusively from this universe might encourage a few more people to read it.
Sage King Xuan Feng - The Phantom Wind
Those who know the storm, dread the calm before it...
There is a reason the gods have maintained power for a hundred thousand years in Feng Shen Ji.
They do not pander to nobility or family name, they do not care about royalty or circumstance; every god is given the chance to rise above all, if they have the power. The strongest amongst their race fight each other in fair combat for the right to rule as one of 6 "Great Gods".
"But KC", I hear you say, "Xuan Feng's title isn't Great God, is it?"
No, it isn't.
Great Gods who are usurped by new-coming challengers are invited to join the Sage Hall, where former Great Gods can hone their power and skill without having to concern themselves with governing the affairs of their race. It's through this system that every successive generation of gods should get stronger, whilst the older are also encouraged to grow in power as well.
Xuan Feng was the former, undefeated Great God of the Rain Association. Of all the hundreds of former Great Gods in the Sage Hall, only 5 were able to push their technique and power to its limit and attain the title of "Sage King", and Xuan Feng is one of them.
Whilst he is widely considered the weakest of the 5 Sage Kings, it's only because he has never been forced to show his true strength, as he can usually just blow people away using his power over wind, but more on that soon.
Xuan Feng's speed is one of - if not his most - defining traits. He is arguably the fastest and most agile god in the series, having a slight speed advantage on Shi Xing, who was capable of travelling thousands of miles over a short period of time:
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Whilst the exact time frame it takes for Shi Xing re-appearing isn't stated, but reading through Xuan Fengs monologue immediately prior to takes between 30 and 40 seconds, which would put Shi Xings speed roughly between Mach 230 and Mach 290, allowing for the 10 second variance.
Whilst this falls under the speed limit of this tournament, Xuan Feng is still faster than Shi Xing, so it should bring him up to or near the limit of Mach 300, and that's where I'll be arguing him:
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As you can see from these scans, and as you might expect from a storm/wind god, he's also capable of flight, which makes him exceedingly difficult to pin down.
Whilst Xuan Feng doesn't possess a ton of durability feats (by virtue of being too fast and manoeuvrable for almost everybody to get a hold of), he uses his control over wind to create a barrier of immense pressure around himself to protect him from harm:
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His wind barrier was powerful enough to stop a full-speed bull-rush from the god, Shi Xing, who we've already established is around lightning speed, but has incredible strength as well, as even with his stats halved he was able to force Wu Geng into the ground through his Monochrome barrier, though he wasn't strong enough to overcome it completely. Wu Geng's Monochrome at this point was able to destroy a city (albeit a mostly wood and stone one):
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The fact a faster, more powerful version of him couldn't so much as get near Xuan Feng whilst his barrier was up is exceedingly impressive, and should make it hard for any physical attacks to reach him.
Xuan's offensive control over air is more terrifying. Aside from being able to conjure tornados or typhoons at a moments notice, he can also focus his control over his power to create what he refers to as the "Shapeless Sword", an invisible, almost unrivaled piercing weapon made completely of air:
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As Shi Xing mentions, it's basically impossible to block, meaning Xuan can essentially just decide to materialise a golf ball sized hole straight through your head if you're within his range.
Tian - Heaven Itself
Amongst Heaven and Earth, I alone am the honoured one...
Tian is the Ultimate in Feng Shen Ji. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is unequivocally the strongest, and nobody can approach him in terms of power.
Of a different race than the current generation of gods, he created them by manipulating the defeated souls of his own kind and forcing them into human vessels. He is mentioned more than once to have created the world in FSJ as it is currently known, 3 times over. As an opponent, he is completely terrifying. He's immune to mental powers and poison, he has power over souls, and of course, he has the ultimate Divine Power, Monochrome.
Monochrome is a multi-faceted power with several applications, including stat draining, power negation (restricted here), a stasis-field, a crushing wall of invisible pressure that can be used for offence or for shielding, and the withering of life.
It prevents anything from reaching Tian (think Gojo's Infinity in application) but begins to decay and destroy anything within its area of effect (which spans several miles at least), and the closer to Tian, or the more divine power he chooses to emit, the more powerful the effect. It is described in volume 1 as below:
This seems a suitable place to note that Ah Gou (the character in the above scan) states several times that Tian's version of Monochrome is much more powerful than his (1, 2, 3), so any feats of Ah Gou's Monochrome can be substituted for Tian's.
Monochrome can be applied at different degrees of intensity, and the user appears to at least have some degree of control over who it effects. Tian's ultimate form of Monochrome is White Wall, but again, we'll touch on that later on. For now, I just want to point out that it has been repeatedly stated to more than half the stats of those effected by it, and this is prior to either Ah Gou OR Tian using their ultimate forms of Monochrome (True Dark Prison and White Wall, respectively)
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Aside from overall halving stats as a passive aura, it can completely neutralise the force of physical strikes, even if they land.
As a physical combatant, Tian is a complete monster who operates at the limit of this tournament.
Any attacks Tian lands should seriously injure if not outright kill either member of your team, especially given their durability will be seriously compromised by Monochrome.
Opening Strategy
When the match begins, Tian's passive Monochrome will already be active, but he'll immediately activate one of his stronger forms, slowing and weakening your team to less than half of their usual power level, causing issues to their senses, breathing, causing internal haemorrhaging and preventing any attacks from reaching my team.
Simultaneously, Xuan Feng will summon his Deity of the Storm, and immediately have it blast your team with wind, which was strong enough to instantly hurl Shi Xing thousands of li away, which is enough and then some to be considered a ring out, as I don't believe the labyrinth stretches more than a few miles in any direction.
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If your team have some way of avoiding the ring out, they'll still have to contend physically with Tian and Xuan Feng, whilst having their stats effectively cut in half, but we can get into the specifics of that when we look at counters and stuff.
A quick note before we begin, but I want to apologize in advance for some of the GIFs' scuffed quality. These games are getting on the relatively older side, and sometimes it shows, so sorry about that.
Opener: Heroism Immemorial
From the ancient Grecian myths of old to the modern cultural pandemonium, one part of storytelling that seems to transcend time is the idea of light vs darkness. The fantasy of a great hero destined to defeat all which is deemed evil in the world is a powerful vision, one whose instantly recognisable yet infinitely malleable iconography has led to some of the finest tales ever told, regardless of medium or time.
I suppose in that context, it only makes sense that Nintendo, the Godfather of the modern gaming landscape, is no stranger to such stories, with the two I am presenting today being some of the purest examples of such a story. One is a legacy of heroes reborn every generation to contain a millennia-long curse, the other a faithful servant of a literal goddess, defending the land from the gods who would dare bring harm to humanity. No matter what time or place they may reincarnate into, you can be assured that whoever crosses their paths will know what it's like to be chosen by the gods.
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I. Might of The Light
Both Link and Pit, whilst very strong physical fighters, aren't defined by brutist strength or simply overwhelming their enemies with raw showcases of strength. Rather, they are warriors much more in tune with the idea of adapting to any sort of scenario. However, in the name of covering all the bases, it should be noted just how powerful Link & Pit truly are.
Starting with Pit, his general stats mostly come from his battles against other deities. In the case of speed, it's made clear during his fight with Phosphora, where he could dodge her electric blasts & ultimately come out victorious in their clash. Despite her attacks being called "electricity", Phosphora's lightning is the real deal, with natural lightning storms following her fights & Viridi (the goddess of nature with whom Phosphora sides) even outright emphasizing that she moves at lightning speeds. Given the rulings put down by the host of this match, this comfortably puts Pit at the fastest speeds of this battle.
Phosphora also provides crucial scaling when it comes to Pit's physical strength as well, as earlier in the same chapter, she battled against a previous god that Pit defeated, Thanatos, and as a mere side effect of their clash, accidentally destroyed this giant slab of rock. The size & number of hills on this floating island, along with the sheer density, should make it so that Pit can do some solid damage should the situation call for it.
On the other side of the spectrum, Link isn't nearly as dependent on others when it comes to providing his power levels, largely in part due to the increased volume of adventures he's had. As such, it's only natural that he'll stand right alongside Pit as being on par with the best of the best.
- Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
Strength-wise, a good showing for him comes from his Hero of Winds incarnation, where he was able to shatter this giant barrier surrounding Hyrule Castle. Usually, this wouldn't be noteworthy in the confines of this tourney but in Wind Waker's continuity, Hyrule Castle was completely drowned and sent to the bottom of the ocean, with the barrier reaching at the very least to the surface. Factoring that piece of information in, whilst we don't know the exact depths of the Great Sea, we can use our world as a reference that in that the average depth is about 3000 meters and some change, which would naturally give Link the power he needs to stand amongst the top of this tournament.
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Legend of Zelda: Breath of The Wild
Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
As for speed, Link's even easier than that since not has he blatantly shown the ability to dodge lightning himself, but enemies such as Demise were also capable of catching lightning or even hurling them at Link as projectiles, so calling him around the speed of lightning should be more than reasonable.
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Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
That'll be all I show in terms of pure stats for now, but it's worth pointing out that Link has a history of fighting opponents much faster than himself, such as Thunderblight Ganon or even the King of Evil, Ganondorf. Not only does this show that even if you could argue you're faster, Link has plenty of means around it, but it also goes a long way to explain the seeming inconsistencies throughout the franchise. I imagine some spectators would be thinking, "Zelda is a franchise where the main character uses arrows. How could it be lightning speed in any capacity?" and that's a sentiment I would usually be empathetic towards, but here's the answer that essentially writes itself. Whether Link can slow down time from his perspective when concentrating or with sheer tenacity, Link constantly fights opponents bigger, faster and more dangerous than himself, yet like a true hero, invariably finds a way to prevail.
II. God-Given Gifts
As I hinted earlier, Link & Pit are far more in tune with the gear & abilities they have when it comes to defeating opponents, so I think it's time we discuss said versatility. Across their two-decade history, these characters have had, they have had a lot of abilities, far more than I ever could surmise in a single post, so for now, I'll only go over what I believe to be the main highlights of this discussion.
Kid Icarus Uprising: Idol 77
Let's start with Pit first, given he has the smaller movepool, but before we truly begin it's worth mentioning that some of the examples in the GIFs I present aren't used by Pit, but rather these plain foot soldiers. That's because the Powers aren't exactly provided by Pit himself, but rather by the goddess Palutena (worth pointing out that he doesn't need direct contact with a goddess to use any of them), so anything performed by these Fighters, Pit can replicate just as well, if not moreso.
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With that out of the way, Pit has quite the variety of offensive options opened up through these powers, ranging from bypassing walls/shields with Slip Shot, rapid-fire/homing charged projectiles, invisible shots, inflicting statuses like poison, or most dangerously, transmuting opponents into anything from stone to tempura with legs. All of these offensive options mean that not only can you not hide from Pit's attacks, but when one is tagged, a great deal of hax resistance is needed to combat everything Pit has to offer.
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Meanwhile, on the defensive spectrum, things get even better for our angel, as Pit has everything from simple barriers, invisibility and intangibility, but more niche abilities like Bumblebee, which is effectively Pit gaining his own Ultra Instinct via automatically dodging attacks, or Pisces Heal letting him heal from wounds that would normally be fatal. Even in terms of hax resistance, Pit's attachment to the goddess of light allows her to restore him from the effects of transmutation. So whether it be physical damage or more esoteric offence, Pit has the means to bypass it all, and that's without factoring in Pit's own inherent hax resistance, which I'll bring up when necessary.
But as far as the Hero of Time's toolkit goes, here's where things turn up to eleven, since whilst there is some overlap between him & Pit (transmutation, intangibility/invisibility, resurrecting from fatal wounds etc.), Link has a good number of X-Factors that drive home the prepared for anything mentality these warriors bring.
Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
To start with, whilst a majority of Link's arsenal stems from his pool of available magic, the drink Chateau Romani allows him to have unlimited magic for at least seventy-two hours, giving him free reigns to burn as much as is required. Though it's also worth mentioning that not everything posted will require the use of magic.
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Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
Legend of Zelda: Breath of The Wild
Legend of Zelda: Four Swords
That magic can range from a nigh-infinite tool kit. I've brought up a couple already, but on top of all that Link has gear that lets him create 3 identical clones, amp his strength & durability or even effectively nerf his opponents via using items that directly cut damage taken by half.
However, whilst Link has many, many more tools, what I'll end this segment on for now on is his ability to manipulate the very flow of time. With a simple melody of an ocarina, Link can slow down time to about one-third of its original flow, the video above being a visual example of the effects. The effects of this should be obvious in a vacuum, but to put it into words, with Link being at the top of the speed limits, his skill & concentration after-effects, & the Song of Reversed Time, there is no universe where Link isn't going to get the first move. And with a kit for just about any occasion, there's bound to be something either Link or Pit can use to put your team down, whereas even trying to get a decent hit onto the duo of light will prove a nigh insurmountable challenge.
Coalescing Champions:
So now that both of our warriors have been established, now is the time to show off what they will be doing in prep, as 30 minutes is plenty of time to get the ball rolling. Everything I mentioned that can be done, will be applied here. Chateau Romani is drunk, food items are eaten right before the time limit's end, time is slowed down etc.
However, there's one aspect of Pit's kit that I've neglected to talk about until now, as it would only be relevant now. The Power Double Item is very self-explanatory as it duplicates anything that Pit can get his hands on. What this means is that the vast majority of Link's kit can be duplicated, with Pit gaining the same effects, whether they be the food-based stat upgrades, clones, etc. Alternatively, should the situation call for it, Pit can also use Double Item to, say, give Link seven clones instead of just three. Hence, there's a nigh-immeasurable level of versatility to match Link's overwhelming arsenal.
But even then, there's still plenty more that can be done, as Link isn't going to be the only one sharing abilities. Remember how I mentioned earlier that Pit's Powers are derived from Palutena? Well, following on from that, given that Pit without a goddess backing him up is the equivalent of an iron Man having a suit without some JARVIS equivalent (i.e. happened before but is very uncommon and this can be considered standard), there's nothing stopping Link from getting the same kind of gifts from Palutena. So the same kind of transmutation attacks, homing arrows and so much more than Pit have access to should be reasonable for Link to also have. Not as if Palutena would say no to helping a warrior chosen by fellow goddesses.
I'm aware this may not seem like much, given just how vast these characters' toolkits are, but you have to remember that with Link & Pit, adaptation is the name of the game. Not only is the mere act of Double Item existing allow for an even more dangerous duo, but with all the items available, it'd simply be impossible to cover everything.
Foreseeing the Future:
Now that I've established the broad strokes of my team, I think this will do for now. I know for many this might seem a bit underwhelming, given just how much Link & Pit have to offer, as I've mentioned before and will continue to stress, this should be a testament that all of these abilities are merely a stepping stone. I could go on and on about these characters' kits, especially from a defensive point of view, but for now, simply rest assured that no matter what kind of tricks and twists you may through, the heroes of the gods have an answer.
As for my opponent's opener, I wont go into any preemptive counters, but I'll bring up one last piece of versatility Link has, the Song of Time. At any point, with a simple melody, Link can rewind time and effectively make it so that should things even start to look remotely dire, nothing's stopping Link from simply rewinding time & redoing the entire exchange over and over again until he & Pit eventually stumble upon a winning formula. The only difference is that Link will be coming into the battle with knowledge from the previous reset, meanwhile to the opponents, it'll be as if they never met each other. Above all else, you need to pin down why Link can't just rewind time the microsecond things start turning south before doing anything, let alone deal with incredibly physical strong opponents, with the techniques, overwhelming versatility and sheer heroic will to fight off any opponent.
Your team is formidable mate, no doubt about it, but not for their stats. I'm not overly convinced by the feats you have provided so far that their output in strength (or speed, in Link's case) is near the level required to cause issues to my duo.
Phosphora also provides crucial scaling when it comes to Pit's physical strength as well, as earlier in the same chapter, she battled against a previous god that Pit defeated, Thanatos, and as a mere side effect of their clash, accidentally destroyed this giant slab of rock. The size & number of hills on this floating island, along with the sheer density, should make it so that Pit can do some solid damage should the situation call for it.
That's a big rock, but it's not mountain sized and I'd be hesitant to even refer to the spikes on it as hills. The whole rock itself doesn't seem larger than a couple of hundred metres at BEST unless Pit is a LOT bigger than I remember.
I'm also not clear on just how Pit scales in strength to the green thing that split it (is that Thanatos?) as you didn't show it. You can defeat somebody without being a peer in strength, so what in Pit's arsenal lets him deal the kind of damage that will even pass Tian's Monochrome barrier, never-mind hurt him?
Strength-wise, a good showing for him comes from his Hero of Winds incarnation, where he was able to shatter this giant barrier surrounding Hyrule Castle. Usually, this wouldn't be noteworthy in the confines of this tourney but in Wind Waker's continuity,Hyrule Castle was completely drowned and sent to the bottom of the ocean, with the barrier reaching at the very least to the surface. Factoring that piece of information in, whilst we don't know the exact depths of the Great Sea, we can use our world as a reference that in thatthe average depth is about 3000 metersand some change, which would naturally give Link the power he needs to stand amongst the top of this tournament.
Even before I looked into this, this feat looks like it has nothing to do with physical strength whatsoever. The barrier doesn't show any damage from the point of "striking" (Link doesn't even physically hit it), it seems to solidify all the way around and then shatter. The Master Sword is pretty clearly glowing and it looks like it's to do with its power to repel darkness, and upon actually checking it out, that appears to be exactly the case. It's not a strength feat, and not one that could harm my team.
As for speed, Link's even easier than that since not has he blatantly shown the ability to dodge lightning himself, but enemies such as Demise were also capable of catching lightning or even hurling them at Link as projectiles, so calling him around the speed of lightning should be more than reasonable.
Eh, I'm also kind of sceptical of this as well.
The first feat is during gameplay only (not like Pit's feat), and whilst that can sometimes be a bit of an anal point, in the same game (BotW), Link is troubled by things much slower than lightning. Even when he uses his ability to rapidly increase his reaction speed (through focus, or whatever you want to call it), he moves in centiseconds, which is miles away from lightning speed.
Thanks to the timer, we can actually see that even when his speed is increased, Link draws and fires his bow in hundredths of a second. Fast, sure, but not in the context of this tournament.
The 2nd feat is both his opponent and himself using their swords as lightning rods - they raise them in the sky way before the lightning is even visible and it seems like it's attracted to the sword.
That'll be all I show in terms of pure stats for now, but it's worth pointing out that Link has a history of fighting opponents much faster than himself, such as Thunderblight Ganon or even the King of Evil, Ganondorf. Not only does this show that even if you could argue you're faster, Link has plenty of means around it, but it also goes a long way to explain the seeming inconsistencies throughout the franchise. I imagine some spectators would be thinking, "Zelda is a franchise where the main character uses arrows. How could it be lightning speed in any capacity?" and that's a sentiment I would usually be empathetic towards, but here's the answer that essentially writes itself. Whether Link can slowdown time from his perspective when concentratingor with sheer tenacity, Link constantly fights opponents bigger, faster and more dangerous than himself, yet like a true hero, invariably finds a way to prevail.
You'd be arguing yourself as over the limits if that was the case. By your logic, Link is already at the limits of the tournament BEFORE he increases his speed through simply focusing, which demonstrably makes him several times quicker.
I don't believe he's that fast of course, as even with his focus increase he's quite visibly (thanks to the handy timer) only into supersonic speeds. This honestly makes a ton more sense in the context of the verse, where they do indeed use arrows.
With that out of the way, Pit has quite the variety of offensive options opened up through these powers,
He does, but I don't see any of them causing issues.
ranging from bypassing walls/shields with Slip Shot
Shooting through a wall isn't the same as bypassing a shield, and certainly not one like Monochrome, which isn't a shield in the traditional sense. As is stated in the first description given for it in the series, Monochrome is a power that suppresses and counters any and all offensive forces, which would include Slip Shot arrows anyway just via statements, but Monochrome has feats of forcing things without form into tangible solids.
Ah Gou was able to force Honoured One Long Jiu, who was cloaked in Battle Armour with the power of "Nothingness" to maintain corporeal form and be unable to dissipate through their attacks:
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Monochrome anchored Long Jiu in place so that he could be forced out of the armour that had previously allowed him to just phase through any attacks:
or most dangerously, transmuting opponents into anything from stone totempura with legs. All of these offensive options mean that not only can you not hide from Pit's attacks, but when one is tagged, a great deal of hax resistance is needed to combat everything Pit has to offer.
Sounding a bit like a broken record here, but I'm not seeing how any of this stuff has the power to get through my teams defence.
Meanwhile, on the defensive spectrum, things get even better for our angel, as Pit has everything from simple barriers, invisibility and intangibility, but more niche abilities like Bumblebee, which is effectively Pit gaining his own Ultra Instinct via automatically dodging attacks, or Pisces Heal letting him heal from wounds that would normally be fatal. Even in terms of hax resistance,Pit's attachment to the goddess of light allows her to restore him from the effects of transmutation.So whether it be physical damage or more esoteric offence, Pit has the means to bypass it all, and that's without factoring in Pit's own inherent hax resistance, which I'll bring up when necessary.
Imma be honest man, I can't make out a single thing that is happening in any of these defensive GIFs -- they're too small and low res. I can't read any of the text and the action isn't clear. I can't be sure those show what you're saying they do. Can you find anything more in line with the other ones you posted?
However, whilst Link has many,manymore tools, what I'll end this segment on for now on is his ability to manipulate the very flow of time. With a simple melody of an ocarina, Link can slow down time to about one-third of its original flow, the video above being a visual example of the effects.
The video doesn't really show anything aside from him playing the melody. The dude next to him carries on walking away at the same speed after it's played, so I'm a bit confused. Is there a statement of it slowing time down to a 3rd of its original flow? Is there a range to the effect? How long does it last?
The effects of this should be obvious in a vacuum, but to put it into words, with Link being at the top of the speed limits, his skill & concentration after-effects, & the Song of Reversed Time, there is no universe where Link isn't going to get the first move.
Link is nowhere close to the speed limit as far as I'm concerned. His feats are sorely lacking, and slowing down time, even if it does do it to 1/3 its original speed, doesn't put him close to either of my team. Lets not forget, that the speed, durability and power of your team is already more than halved by Monochrome as soon as you appear on the battlefield anyway, not to mention the physically debilitating effects it has.
So now that both of our warriors have been established, now is the time to show off what they will be doing in prep, as 30 minutes is plenty of time to get the ball rolling. Everything I mentioned that can be done, will be applied here. Chateau Romani is drunk, food items are eaten right before the time limit's end, time is slowed down etc.
You might get key items from across different iterations given that Link is composite, but why would you get all the disposable items that he has to gather and collect in game? You haven't selected a battlefield native to your character, so where is getting all these materials from? Where is he getting the pot to cook the food items with the ingredients he also doesn't have?
However, there's one aspect of Pit's kit that I've neglected to talk about until now, as it would only be relevant now. The Power Double Item is very self-explanatory as it duplicates anything that Pit can get his hands on. What this means is that the vast majority of Link's kit can be duplicated, with Pit gaining the same effects, whether they be the food-based stat upgrades, clones, etc. Alternatively, should the situation call for it, Pit can also use Double Item to, say, give Link seven clones instead of just three. Hence, there's a nigh-immeasurable level of versatility to match Link's overwhelming arsenal.
Interesting. Can he duplicate anything? Has it ever been shown to duplicate a person like you're suggesting he use it?
But even then, there's still plenty more that can be done, as Link isn't going to be the only one sharing abilities. Remember how I mentioned earlier that Pit's Powers are derived from Palutena? Well, following on from that, given that Pit without a goddess backing him up is the equivalent of an iron Man having a suit without some JARVIS equivalent (i.e. happened before but is very uncommon and this can be considered standard), there's nothing stopping Link from getting the same kind of gifts from Palutena. So the same kind of transmutation attacks, homing arrows and so much more than Pit have access to should be reasonable for Link to also have. Not as if Palutena would say no to helping a warrior chosen by fellow goddesses.
Pit having his usual Goddess given powers is one thing (like picking a Matrix character and assuming they can fight as they would within the Matrix), but having it actively participate in the battle by amping an unrelated fighter is another. If Pit himself could actively grant the gifts then fair enough, but as it stands, I don't see why I wouldn't get Tian's Dragon (His Divine guardian) if that was the case.
Above all else, you need to pin down why Link can't just rewind time the microsecond things start turning south before doinganything, let alone deal with incredibly physical strong opponents, with the techniques, overwhelming versatility and sheer heroic will to fight off any opponent.
I'll be honest, I don't think your characters are physically impressive. Neither of them have the stats to push through Tian's monochrome, and durability wise I don't see any reason they don't begin to break down the moment they enter the battlefield and into Tian's influence, not to mention when they have to actually take a hit with their endurance and durability slashed in half.
Link will find it exceedingly hard to play a tune when there isn't a shred of air around him or in his lungs. Xuan Feng controls the air itself if you recall, and his Divine Skill, True Void, removes all air over a huge area:
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So not only will Link not be able to play a tune, nobody would be able to hear it if he could, as the ability also robs you of your hearing. Nor Link or Pit will be able to hear, breath, fight or fly as they choke to death.
Even ignoring that, Link has to stop and take a few seconds to play that melody for it to take effect. Seconds he absolutely would not have. Even if you wanted to argue that scene is relative, Link doesn't have the speed to hang with either of my team, especially not whilst under the stat draining effects of Monochrome, and especially not whilst the blood is stalling in his veins and his body begins to break apart.
The Battle
I think your team are outclassed from a stats perspective. Their versatility is impressive, but I think ultimately it amounts to nought as I haven't seen anything that would allow them to get through Monochrome (or Xuan Feng's Wind Barrier, for that matter).
Just to reinforce how strong Tian's Monochromatic wall is, Ah Gou's inferior version of Monochrome (albeit his strongest form of said power) was able to halt the advance of The Armoured City of Bu Nu, which was essentially a walking mountain:
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You can see it is noted that Ah Gou is holding back the crushing weight of a mountain with his power, and that the Golem itself is taller than a mountain.
Tian can immediately activate his ultimate form of Monochrome, White Wall, your team will be robbed of their sight and other senses, their bones will be crushed and their capillaries will disintegrate within their bodies. With Xuan Feng's control over air rendering your team completely deaf and unable to breath, White Wall rendering them blind, organs crushed and unable to move (assuming it doesn't just outright disintegrate and kill them), I don't see how they don't get immediately rolled over.
That's a big rock, but it's not mountain sized and I'd be hesitant to even refer to the spikes on it as hills. The whole rock itself doesn't seem larger than a couple of hundred metres at BEST unless Pit is a LOT bigger than I remember.
Admittedly the perspective we see does make the size of the rock a bit confusing, but you also have to consider the very nature of it being a solid rock in the first place. Remember, in this case, it's not just the size that matters, but rather the sheer volume that something this large would possess would undoubtedly cause the raw KE needed to destroy such a thing mighty impressive. I can't calc the feat since sadly that isn't my field, especially once you consider the size of the other comparable floating islands around the storm, it becomes clear that, whilst on their own they wouldn't put Pit on the limits, the fact that Phosphora & Thanatos were able to destroy by complete accident & that Pit scales above both should be enough to put a dent in. Not that raw punching power is too much of a stressing point for me, especially since Pit in particular doesn't rely on it nearly as much as even Link.
I'm also not clear on just how Pit scales in strength to the green thing that split it (is that Thanatos?) as you didn't show it. You can defeat somebody without being a peer in strength,
The green glow dragon is a reincarnated Thanatos after Pit already defeated him, clashing with yet ultimately losing to Phosphora, as could be seen in the original GIF I posted. Whilst in both cases, the fact that both fights are purely gameplay makes things tricky to evaluate if you wanna be a pedantic nitpicker, the fact that Pit was able to beat Phosphora & Thanatos one-on-one, with the former even directly beating the latter on screen, should be enough to show that Pit scales to them both pretty unintrusively. This rock feat was also performed by Thanatos & Phosphora merely charging right through it, both adding to the feat's quality whilst also assuring that this can't be sidestepped with the idea that it was a result of any powers Pit wouldn't possess.
Even before I looked into this, this feat looks like it has nothing to do with physical strength whatsoever. The barrier doesn't show any damage from the point of "striking" (Link doesn't even physically hit it), it seems to solidify all the way around and then shatter.
That interpretation simply doesn't make sense when you stop and reduce this feat to its core component; the fact that this effect of the barrier only happened after Link swung his sword at it. What you are proposing would imply that those three sword slashes Link did were merely just for show, and the barrier would have shattered merely by the Master Sword's presence, which is not what's happening. As for the solidifying aspect, that could easily be explained as the barrier's desperate attempt to try and hold itself up before inevitably collapsing in on itself, but even if you want to argue the specifics of what happened, so what? Whether it was through the Master Sword, Link's raw firepower or a mixture of the two, the result of them being strong enough to affect a barrier of this size & calibre should weather the storm of an idea that they wouldn't operate at mountain level.
Also, no damage from the point of striking? The whole barrier was visibly affected, from every conceivable angle, including the part in front of the bridge that Link is directly in front of, so that complaint confuses me to quite the extent.
The Master Sword is pretty clearly glowing and it looks like it's to do with its power to repel darkness, and upon actually checking it out, that appears to be exactly the case. It's not a strength feat, and not one that could harm my team.
Not incorrect, the Master Sword is glowing because earlier on in the game it lost its power to repel evil before Link got it back, but that also doesn't change the nature of the feat itself. The fact of the matter is that if what Link did here was just because of the Master Sword, then its shattering makes no sense. If it was just dispelling the evil aura, then why wouldn't have done something akin to what it did with Demise and absorbed the darkness straight into it. The presentation of this feat makes it clear what the point of the scene is trying to convey,
Even when he uses his ability to rapidly increase his reaction speed (through focus, or whatever you want to call it), he moves in centiseconds, which is miles away from lightning speed. Thanks to the timer, we can actually see that even when his speed is increased, Link draws and fires his bow in hundredths of a second. Fast, sure, but not in the context of this tournament. You'd be arguing yourself as over the limits if that was the case. By your logic, Link is already at the limits of the tournament BEFORE he increases his speed through simply focusing, which demonstrably makes him several times quicker.
This is misinterpreting what Link's, let's call it "Focus View", actually entails. That isn't Link moving/reacting specifically at those speeds, but rather it shows the degree to which Link's perception of time is compared to how it would normally flow. Daruk's Training Journal makes it clear that it isn't Link moving so fast that he's statuing everyone, the world is simply moving slower than normal from his perception, which sounds like a pedantic difference in phrasing, but goes a long way.
Think of it like this: If a projectile was moving at a speed ranking of 100, whilst Link was only at 75, then from Link's Focus View, rather than him jumping from 75 to 150, the projectile would be seen as moving at 50 despite it still technically moving at 100 as normal. Lesso's raw speed and more a minor form of time manipulation, and is merely an add-on to how Link is capable of fighting foes stronger and faster than himself, rather than what is responsible for his speed. To put it in anime comparison terms, think of it more akin to Demon Slayer's See Through World or Magi's Hyper Concentration, rather than any kind of traditional powerup.
The 2nd feat is both his opponent and himself using their swords as lightning rods - they raise them in the sky way before the lightning is even visible and it seems like it's attracted to the sword.
You're forgetting the part where Demise throws the lightning bolt directly at Link, which is the part being emphasised here. Keep in mind that the lightning bolt Demise throws is identical to how it looks whilst coming down from the sky, so it's not as if he's using magic or anything of the sort to alter its movement. More accurately, what's happening is Demise using his sword to hold onto the lightning, before letting it continue on a separate path directly towards Link.
I don't believe he's that fast of course, as even with his focus increase he's quite visibly (thanks to the handy timer) only into supersonic speeds. This honestly makes a ton more sense in the context of the verse, where they do indeed use arrows.
It's worth mentioning now that this attempt at a lowball would only apply to Breath of The Wild's version of Link, as whilst they are all reincarnations of the same Hero of Hyrule, they don't share a skill, stats or anything of the sort. By all accounts, they are essentially entirely separate characters, just smooshed together for the sake of this debate, so even if I hypothetically conceded that the Hero of The Wild's version of lightning timing wasn't appropriate, then the Hero of the Sky's would still be plenty appropriate.
Shooting through a wall isn't the same as bypassing a shield, and certainly not one like Monochrome, which isn't a shield in the traditional sense. As is stated in the first description given for it in the series, Monochrome is a power that suppresses and counters any and all offensive forces, which would include Slip Shot arrows anyway just via statements.
Counters? Sure. Outright nullify? I don't think that's how it works. Pay attention to how the phrasing of the description of Monochrome, and how it specifically calls it "withering of vitality" & "suppresses". That would imply to me that this is more akin to the nerfing of the physical threat to begin with, rather than something like what Satoru Gojo has, who is completely stats agnostic. If it were more like Infinity, then wouldn't it say something more akin to "It's a power that negates & counters offensive forces"?
Fen Sheng Ji Chapter 30
This seems to line up with what other showings of Monochrome have allowed, as whilst he wasn't going all out with it, Wu Geng's battle with Shi Xing shows that the Manhua does back up my interpretation by explicitly reducing his "lethality" (i.e. power levels), but Shi Xing's power being so dramatically stronger than Wu Geng that it doesn't matter, as well as showings you posted, such as here, where the attack itself wasn't stopped and still reached as normal, just the power of it was gone. This isn't simply negating all forms of offence through a defensive barrier, what it is instead is reducing the strength/vitality of everything around it to the point where it might as well just negate it all entirely, & then drain the life out of people when there's no strength left.
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Kid Icarus Uprising Idol 188
Kid Icarus Instruction Manual
With this in mind, all you seem to need to do to bypass Monochrome is have the draining resistance needed to work around it, and luckily for this little angel, even Monoeyes, the literal Goombas of the Kid Icarus franchise, can drain an opponent's strength/life but don't even bother trying against Pit anymore due to his seeming growth in the 25 years since games. Heck, One of Pit's weapon classes he can use works via draining his life force, so trying to drain an opponent in a verse this well versed in it will prove a challenge. It's also worth mentioning that since all of Pit's weapons are imbued with the power of the gods, and as Pit's divinity is part of the reason he can't be drained, they should be unable to be affected similarly.
As for Link, the Phantom Hourglass has provided simple resistance to draining that would normally reduce people to bones in seconds. Hence, his infinite pockets have another dangerous counter.
Though if you want to argue this as more akin to stat manipulation than draining, that's even easier since given all of the boosts Pit & especially Link can provide for themselves, it'll be pretty easy for the both of them to simply buff themselves back to their usual fighting force. Just between themselves, Pit could use Powers like Super Speed, Aries Armour or Libra Sponge to recover this speed, durability & strength respectively, whilst Link can use tools such as the Bunny Hood or any of the already established potions or food items. Keep in mind that Link & Pit would've already applied a good chunk of these thanks to the prep time, so right out the rip Monochrome has a lot of catching up to do in not a lot of time.
but Monochrome has feats of forcing things without form into tangible solids.
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Kid Icarus Uprising Idols 225 & 227
I wouldn't call this case so cut and dry, since Pit regularly fits foes that would be more than capable of hurting traditionally intangible beings, such as Reapers who harvest souls with every swing or Zuree being blatant ghosts. Whilst this isn't too relevant in terms of Pit's offence, since it's not like Pit's projectiles don't have physical form or anything, in terms of defence, Playing Dead is still more than capable of bypassing even specialists of the incorporeal.
Again, don't see how these get past Monochrome or Xuan Feng's Wind Barrier. They'll just disintegrate further the closer they get, or fly back at you.
This is something Link has on lockdown, as he is also no stranger to controlling the very winds.
This can be mainly attributed to the Wind Waker of the titular title. Much akin to how Link's Ocarina works, with a single wave of the wand Link, can create all manner of effects, but in this case, it allows him to have complete control over the direction the wind goes, and even use them to create tornadoes and control them in a way where it sends him to specific parts of the Great Sea without harm. This is pretty important in this context since Xuan Feng isn't creating magical wind from out of thin air, rather it's clear based on the way his techniques are described, it's merely manipulating the wind already surrounding him & his opponent for both offensive & defensive applications.
With this factored in, nothing's stopping Link from using the Wind Waker to essentially wrestle the control of the wind in his & Pit's favour, or at least resetting it back to neutral. Not only would this completely shut down Xuan Feng's barriers, but if he doesn't have the feats of overpowering a fellow wind manipulator, then there's a good chance that everything he has beyond his base statistics will be completely out of his control, and that's the last position you want to be in against an opponent like Link. Considering there are going to be at least seven different Links all dogpiling your duo, it's fair to say that one of them can be left to deal with the wind.
Imma be honest man, I can't make out a single thing that is happening in any of these defensive GIFs -- they're too small and low res. I can't read any of the text and the action isn't clear. I can't be sure those show what you're saying they do. Can you find anything more in line with the other ones you posted?
I'll post higher quality versions of the images here (1, 2, 3, 4), so apologies for any confusion caused, CVs at the time of writing restrictions of GIFs make it pretty tricky sometimes, but suffice to say that what I showed in my opener must certainly align with what I said. I would try and make my own GIFs but frankly, the quality would be so bad I'm not even sure it's worth the hassle.
The video doesn't really show anything aside from him playing the melody. The dude next to him carries on walking away at the same speed after it's played, so I'm a bit confused. Is there a statement of it slowing time down to a 3rd of its original flow? Is there a range to the effect? How long does it last?
Not entirely sure what's not to see here, to be perfectly honest. If you pay attention to the way the Postman moves, you can see the clear differences in the speed compared to when he's going up the stairs & when he's heading into the north side of Clock Town. The footage I used even directly states that the song "reverts time to its original state" (note that I am showing the slowed down version first, then resetting time's natural flow for the sake of comparison), so this being anything other than blatant time manipulation. But I suppose for insurance, have a GIF that explicitly states slowing down time, and whilst there isn't a direct statement about it being 30%, comparing how long the 3-day cycle to complete in normal time compared to slow down makes it obvious, if difficult to show in a single scan.
As far as range & duration goes, it stays in effect throughout all of Termina during the entire 3 days per cycle Link goes through in Majora's Mask, and given that the land is a parallel world to Hyrule, it's safe to say that you're not exactly outrunning nor outlasting the Reversed Song of Time. At least not before you get transmuted.
You might get key items from across different iterations given that Link is composite, but why would you get all the disposable items that he has to gather and collect in game? You haven't selected a battlefield native to your character, so where is getting all these materials from? Where is he getting the pot to cook the food items with the ingredients he also doesn't have?
Because that's what a composite Link entails fundamentally. Whilst Link does gain some new techniques across his incarnations, the vast, vast majority of the time, he grows stronger by the things he obtains along the way and he rarely, if ever, has shown he just chucks everything he owns out the window once his adventures are over. A composite would include everything because that's what it means to be a composite character.
Also, the host said it's fine as long as it's within limits, which it is.
Interesting. Can he duplicate anything? Has it ever been shown to duplicate a person like you're suggesting he use it?
That's not what I'm suggesting at all. What I'm saying is that Pit can duplicate the Four Sword that lets Link apply his cloning, not that he is cloning Link directly. For this context, the fact that he's shown to copy weaponry is good enough.
Pit having his usual Goddess given powers is one thing (like picking a Matrix character and assuming they can fight as they would within the Matrix), but having it actively participate in the battle by amping an unrelated fighter is another. If Pit himself could actively grant the gifts then fair enough, but as it stands, I don't see why I wouldn't get Tian's Dragon (His Divine guardian) if that was the case.
Ignoring my ignorance of whatever Tian's Divine Guardian even is, I mention Palutena's assistance because whilst she does occasionally help out, 90% of the time she's only acting as mission control, watching Pit do all the combat, so realistically, her inclusion wouldn't tip the scales in either direction to any significant degree.
But even still, as I alluded to in the part you quoted, Pit has used Powers before without access to Palutena's Guidance, such as in Chapter 23, when Pit was inside Hades' body, so either way, things should be good as gold.
I don't see any reason they don't begin to break down the moment they enter the battlefield and into Tian's influence
As established and will be emphasised, even if they start getting drained instantly, Monochrome is already playing a game of keep up with all of the stat amping going around, as well as the Reversed Song of Time inherently slowing down the process. And even then, it really doesn't change anything in the grand scheme of things, as Pit's projectiles, Link's Magic Powder or another piece of traditional defence ignoring gear means that it doesn't really matter how hard they hit, Tian'll be turned into stone or a fairy all the same.
Tian's influence, not to mention when they have to actually take a hit with their endurance and durability slashed in half.
Between Pisces Heal & Mipha's Grace being able to revive both Pit & Link from fatal wounds, they can survive any initial assault by default.
Link will find it exceedingly hard to play a tune when there isn't a shred of air around him or in his lungs. Xuan Feng controls the air itself if you recall, and his Divine Skill, True Void, removes all air over a huge area:
Not only would the Wind Waker allow him to regain control over the wind at a moment's notice, but given the way Xuan Feng talks about his Divine Skill, and how he very much didn't open his fight with it, it hardly seems like something that'd be a problem. By the time Xuan pulls out True Void, Tian would have already been turned to stone & he would be dogpiled by half a dozen warriors, something you haven't shown either Tian or Xuan Feng dealing with at all.
Even ignoring that, Link has to stop and take a few seconds to play that melody for it to take effect. Seconds he absolutely would not have. Even if you wanted to argue that scene is relative, Link doesn't have the speed to hang with either of my team, especially not whilst under the stat draining effects of Monochrome,
Maybe on his own, but with Pit and 3 additional clones to work with at a minimum, I'm sure one of them is more than happy to take the wheel, especially when time is slowed down, and that goes for both the Ocarina & the Wind Waker (which mind you doesn't even suffer from the same issues in this instance). Not to mention that the idea that Link has to stop his tracks to play a song or conduct a baton feels like a pretty obvious necessary evil for the sake of gameplay, without any real in-universe explanation, so it feels like it'd be something very easy to wave off.
and especially not whilst the blood is stalling in his veins and his body begins to break apart.
Shen Feng Ji Chapter 124
That same technique is just as dangerous to you as it is to me, given that it explicitly leaves the user wide open in terms of defence. That's assuming of course he doesn't get turned into a fairy the second Pit or Link hit him.
Tian can immediately activate his ultimate form of Monochrome, White Wall, your team will be robbed of their sight and other senses,their bones will be crushed and their capillaries will disintegrate within their bodies.
Shen Feng Ji Chapter 91
The only reason Tian brought out the technique in the first place was that he was backed into a corner and only now going at full power, so saying he would break it out "immediately" feels like something that would be incredibly out of character for him, and not being instant means it'll be too late. And I know you might say "Well is it in character for Pit & Link to use their transmutation immediately?", but trying that sort of argument with them is impossible since those decisions come down to the whims of the player controlling them, making it impossible to truly say "no they would never do that" or anything of the sort.
As we approach our final entries in this battle of the divine, this feels like a battle of control, more than anything, which makes this the nigh perfect opponent for Pit & Link. Tian may be able to control the stats of his opponent, but my duo can easily offset the difference, and whilst Xuan Feng may be able to control the winds, the Hero of Winds can do the exact same thing. In return, you have shown me nothing in terms of being able to deal with my team's offensive output, so it leaves me a reason to believe that unless something is done about it, it'll only take a quick graze from either Link or Pit's weaponry to put either Tian or Xuan Feng down. Sure you could argue Link & pit aren't as physically strong, but that doesn't matter in the face of transmutation. Mix that in with the arguments against Link's speed being both misrepresentative & a misunderstanding of Link as a character, and realistically I simply see Tian & Xuan getting overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Number of opponents thanks to the Four Sword & Double item, the esoteric abilities such as all the elemental attacks & transfiguration, all whilst being more than fast enough to fend off attacks through sheer speed, skill & methods such as Bumblebee or Focus View
We have the speed, the numbers, the defensive profile, the offensive outlet & the initial uptake. Which would you prefer to be defeated by? Burnt alive, frozen or turned to rubble, the choice is yours until you can provide the protection needed to outweigh the favour of Nintendo's pantheon.
@kingcrimson: 2 days left unless u ask for a 3 day extension, if you know now that you can’t make either, I’ll open for votes since this has enough posts already
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