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#1 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

Clark_EL (Arkillo) vs @dredeuced (Barry Allen new 52)

-No BFR

-Morals off

-No Prep

Win by death.

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Clark_EL

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dredeuced

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#2 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, first let's point out the obvious.

Barry Allen is goddamn fast. He is much faster than any lantern can stake a claim at being, seeing as they have traditionally been blitzed by Superman(Hal, who I believe Arkillo has no claim to be faster than), and Hal himself has admitted to Barry's superior speed. Barry is much faster than Superman, atleast in combat situations (supes has superior travel speed as of now), as seen when he successfully avoids the Omega Beam, which Superman cannot:

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I believe Darkseid's Omega Beams are significantly faster and more dangerous than anything Lanterns can put out with their rings (unless we go into Kilowog's black hole feat which is...dubious), so Barry should have no issues dodging any ring projections Arkillo may deign to fire at him.

Now, this speed feat brings up both a 2 major strengths and 1 major weakness for Barry. The major weakness, especially against a Lantern of any kind, is that Barry cannot fly of his own will -- an issue that will be addressed if you deign Arkillo to fly and snipe (questionable given his character). The first strength is that Barry can phase through any solid object quite easily, and do it at high level combat speeds, making physical attacks quite ineffective against him. The second is that, despite the prevailing notion that Flashes are just normal humans in non speed stats, Barry both tanks a hit from Darkseid that KOs Superman, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman and recovers from it quicker than any of them. An explanation (besides "herp derp speed force") might come in the form of his vibration control of his own molecules. Not only can he phase at will, he can vibrate himself to increase his durability, thus explaining him surviving high powered hits that connect and not destroying his own body when he punches Kryptonians and the like:

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If Barry can take a pissed off Supergirl kneechecking his face, I think he can react to and mitigate any physical blow Arkillo can put out. Not quite relevant, as I doubt bloodlusted Barry will be trying to reason with Arkillo like he did Supergirl, and can just phase instead. Still it may be relevant as it also explains how Barry was grappling her effectively throughout this fight (despite not wanting to hurt her as a favor to Clark). Oh, speaking of Supergirl, did I mention that Barry's phasing works on his opponents, regardless of their durability?

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Who knows, maybe if Barry plays the fight right, he can just phase Arkillo apart from his ring? Ah, well, Lantern rings always return to their host if they're nearby and alive. I suppose if he can't separate Arkillo from his ring, he can always just use his phasing to separate him from his molecules:

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While not one of Barry's more commonly used abilities, I'd say that's more from a lack of wanting to murder people (you can see him tossing his captive to safety before he frantically phases for fear of hurting him, despite him being a criminal) than ability, as he clearly knows the frequency he used. I'm not sure how good Arkillo does with having his molecules violently separated like one of Kyle Rayner's relationships, but I, for one, wouldn't want Barry phasing through me. Then again, I know what Barry can do. Arkillo, I'm pretty sure, has never even encountered a DC Speedster outside of Blackest Night where they had no interaction.

I think this might be Arkillo's biggest weakness. Barry is quite aware of Hal and all his enemies, which would include the Sinestro corps. Heck, Hal's got him on speed dial:

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Flash knows Lantern powers, atleast their basic subset, from his experiences with Hal. Arkillo doesn't know crap nothing about Barry, and his go to method of punching a guy with a power ring enhanced fist and some creepy constructs would leave him quite susceptible to violent molecular freedom. Barry should have no problem tagging and outmaneuvering anything Arkillo even bothers trying to do, unless he's somehow gotten faster than Superman and Hal Jordan when I wasn't looking.

That'll end my opening debate. I've obviously left out some choice tidbits of what Barry is capable of, but I figured I'd give @clark_el a chance to respond to some of this before the post got too big. Cheers!

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#4 Posted by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Hey can I also use Kilowog feats as they are considered equals?...up to you if I can or can't.

Let's Look at some basic categories of a battle:

Strength:

Arkillo has the obvious advantage here...Not only is he naturally strong his ring also increases that strength by a lot being able to lift an excess of at least 100+ tons (so can Arkillo without the ring). Barry is a normal guy who's powers do not affect his strength at all.

Here's the fight between Arkillo and Mongul Jr. (a close to Superman level being in strength):

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Arkillo was doing fairly well in that fight and almost won.

Speed:

Barry of course has the advantage but the ring has the ability to auto-shoot at anything moving above the Speed of Sound.

Durability:


Not only is Arkillo naturally tough the Ring's aura protects him....it's his personal force field around him. Add to that he can make a shield/force field Construct that can further protect him. The personal Force field itself is able to take blows from powerhouses, and able to keep oxygen and pressure levels the same while the Lantern is in the Aura.

Power:

Arkillo' main advantage....he has the ability to fly, make constructs, and shoot planet busting attacks from his ring. Although Barry's powers are also vast check out what a power ring can do:

Arkillo is a ruthless fighter using teeth and claw to rip his enemy apart. Arkillo will use any method to his advantage if it would help out the Sinestro Corps. In addition, Arkillo possesses superhuman strength and durability to an undefined extent; it was, however, enough to engage in prolonged hand-to-hand combat withMongul.

Qwardian (Yellow) Power Ring which give him the following abilities:

  • Animating: A Sinestro Lantern can will things to move how he wants. The object moved however is often covered in a yellow aura.
  • Artificial Intelligence : Every ring has a connection to the Main Battery on Qward, which taps into Parallax. It acts as an "on-board computer," telling the wearer what they need to know. It can either respond out loud, or silently directly to the wearer's mind. The AI contains a large database of information that may be crucial to a "Sinestro's" success. The ring also translates nearly every language to and from the wearer, which is why the Corps can communicate with each other. When the bearer of a Sinestro Corps ring dies, the ring will seek out a suitable replacement for their sector, someone capable of instilling great fear.
  • Communicator: The ring can act as a personal communicator between Sinestro Lanterns. They have also been seen connected to telephones. Weather
  • Costumes: The wearer of the ring may create any costume they choose, based on their personal preferences, whenever they choose. The ring projects the costume over any clothes already worn at the time.
  • Energy Projection: The rings can also project beams, form protective bubbles and force fields, and fire destructive blasts. Sometimes, depending on the wearer, the beams and blasts make sounds.
  • Energy Constructs: The rings can construct anything the wearer can imagine from hard-light energy, as long as they are willing to make it. The more determined the wearer is, the more complex and intricate these things can be. The constructs can even be so complex as to form working machines, computers, and even people.
  • Flight: The ring allows the wearer to fly in atmosphere or in space, and can achieve incredible speeds, moving from planet to planet in a matter of hours.
  • Invisibility: The Sinestro Corps ring has the ability to make the wielder invisible.
  • Mind Control: The wearer of the Ring can use it to plant post hypnotic commands or control a person.
  • Mirages: The Ring can create mirages/illusions.
  • Phasing: The ring allows the user to go through walls.
  • Power Absorbing: In the JLA's first fight with Amazo, it was GL who defeated him by drawing out all of Amazo's powers. In Green Lantern/Silver Surfer: Unholy Alliances, Kyle defeated Parallax with SS' power and Thanos with Oa's energy by drawing out all that extra energy from them which made them unconscious. However he couldn't hold all that power nor could his Ring like Hal did with Amazo's powers, so that move isn't often used with so much power.
  • Probing: The ring can probe the Lantern's or another person's mind, allowing him to uncover memories or the person's thoughts.
  • Radiation: Besides light based radiation used to create the energy constructs associated with a Sinestro Corps member or a Green Lantern, the ring can simulate various forms of radiation. One example of this is the ability to simulate the radiation of Red solar radiation, which stunts or removes the powers of Kryptonians and Daxamites.
  • Recharging: The rings need to be recharged by means of a Power Battery. Other large sources of power may be used to recharge a power ring, however effectiveness may vary. The internal power source of a Manhunter Android is, in effect, the same as a power battery, and can be used to recharge a power ring. During the JLA / Avengers crossover, a Cosmic Cube was used to recharge a depleted ring, although this is not an ideal solution and is available if there are no other options. Members of the Sinestro Corps they generally quote the Sinestro Corps oath while recharging their rings: "In blackest day, in brightest night, Beware your fears made into light! Let those who try to stop what's right, Burn like his power... Sinestro's might!” Unlike the Green Lantern Corps however each Sinestro Corps member seems to use a standard unaltered oath.
  • Temperature Control: The Ring can increase or decrease the temperature of anything, even something as large as stars, or even create bubbles of intense heat or cold, even down to Absolute Zero..
  • X-Ray: The Sinestro power ring has the ability to see through all objects without others around him/her being aware that the object has been made transparent. Not all material can be penetrated though.

Well, first let's point out the obvious.

Barry Allen is goddamn fast. He is much faster than any lantern can stake a claim at being, seeing as they have traditionally been blitzed by Superman(Hal, who I believe Arkillo has no claim to be faster than), and Hal himself has admitted to Barry's superior speed. Barry is much faster than Superman, atleast in combat situations (supes has superior travel speed as of now), as seen when he successfully avoids the Omega Beam, which Superman cannot:

True...but Barry cannot pull out as much power as Clark, not to mention Supes can fly unlike Barry.

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I believe Darkseid's Omega Beams are significantly faster and more dangerous than anything Lanterns can put out with their rings (unless we go into Kilowog's black hole feat which is...dubious), so Barry should have no issues dodging any ring projections Arkillo may deign to fire at him.

There's no evidence to show that New 52 Darkseid's beams are faster than a Lanterns. Now although Supes was knocked out by the attcak, do we know if it was planet-busting level? Also Barry only dodged the attack because he phased through a Parademon and the OB hit it instead.

Now, this speed feat brings up both a 2 major strengths and 1 major weakness for Barry. The major weakness, especially against a Lantern of any kind, is that Barry cannot fly of his own will -- an issue that will be addressed if you deign Arkillo to fly and snipe (questionable given his character). The first strength is that Barry can phase through any solid object quite easily, and do it at high level combat speeds, making physical attacks quite ineffective against him. The second is that, despite the prevailing notion that Flashes are just normal humans in non speed stats, Barry both tanks a hit from Darkseid that KOs Superman, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman and recovers from it quicker than any of them??? An explanation (besides "herp derp speed force") might come in the form of his vibration control of his own molecules. Not only can he phase at will, he can vibrate himself to increase his durability, thus explaining him surviving high powered hits that connect and not destroying his own body when he punches Kryptonians and the like:

Yes Barry cannot Fly and making him vulnerable to attack while he himself cannot attack Arkillo. I heard electricity disrupts the frequency of an intangible object . If that's true Arkillo can shoot electric beam of energy at Barry. What attack was that? I'm pretty sure in the fight with SuperGirl Flash just went Intangible at the last second so that the knww wouldn't go through his brain as he said. Supergirl already inflicted damge on the Flash...but due to Flash's reaction time only his nose was damaged.

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If Barry can take a pissed off Supergirl kneechecking his face, I think he can react to and mitigate any physical blow Arkillo can put out. Not quite relevant, as I doubt bloodlusted Barry will be trying to reason with Arkillo like he did Supergirl, and can just phase instead. Still it may be relevant as it also explains how Barry was grappling her effectively throughout this fight (despite not wanting to hurt her as a favor to Clark). Oh, speaking of Supergirl, did I mention that Barry's phasing works on his opponents, regardless of their durability?

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Who knows, maybe if Barry plays the fight right, he can just phase Arkillo apart from his ring? Ah, well, Lantern rings always return to their host if they're nearby and alive. I suppose if he can't separate Arkillo from his ring, he can always just use his phasing to separate him from his molecules:

I don't know if Flash could get passed his Aura. Anyways Arkillo will probably be in the air anyways.

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While not one of Barry's more commonly used abilities, I'd say that's more from a lack of wanting to murder people (you can see him tossing his captive to safety before he frantically phases for fear of hurting him, despite him being a criminal) than ability, as he clearly knows the frequency he used. I'm not sure how good Arkillo does with having his molecules violently separated like one of Kyle Rayner's relationships, but I, for one, wouldn't want Barry phasing through me. Then again, I know what Barry can do. Arkillo, I'm pretty sure, has never even encountered a DC Speedster outside of Blackest Night where they had no interaction.

I think this might be Arkillo's biggest weakness. Barry is quite aware of Hal and all his enemies, which would include the Sinestro corps. Heck, Hal's got him on speed dial:

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Flash knows Lantern powers, atleast their basic subset, from his experiences with Hal. Arkillo doesn't know crap nothing about Barry, and his go to method of punching a guy with a power ring enhanced fist and some creepy constructs would leave him quite susceptible to violent molecular freedom. Barry should have no problem tagging and outmaneuvering anything Arkillo even bothers trying to do, unless he's somehow gotten faster than Superman and Hal Jordan when I wasn't looking.

That'll end my opening debate. I've obviously left out some choice tidbits of what Barry is capable of, but I figured I'd give @clark_el a chance to respond to some of this before the post got too big. Cheers!

What's Barry going to due Arkillo....he knows Hal's powers, does that mean he know what to do if he battles a Sinestro Corps member?

Also what if Arkillo makes a huge electric fence so ther's no way Barry wouldn't be in it , and then close it until Barry dies?

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#5 Edited by FireThunder (68 posts) - - Show Bio

Hell, this debate is getting better. By the way, Does arkillo has feats about reaction time?

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#6 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

I would like it if you don't put bolded responses inside of my quote box. It makes it incredibly hard to track what you're saying and respond to each point individually. Just copy and past what you're responding to, highlight it, and use the "quote" button then put your rebuttal below.

@clark_el

Strength:

Arkillo has the obvious advantage here...Not only is he naturally strong his ring also increases that strength by a lot being able to lift an excess of at least 100+ tons (so can Arkillo without the ring). Barry is a normal guy who's powers do not affect his strength at all.

Here's the fight between Arkillo and Mongul Jr. (a close to Superman level being in strength):

I think it's quite obvious Arkillo has the strength advantage, I just think it's trivial in a matter where he's fighting someone he can't keep up with. I would say, when it comes to battles, speed is a more generally helpful stat than strength. I'll let the voters conclude this one, I just don't think Arkillo's ability to punch Mongul is even relevant against someone as fast as Barry.

Durability:

Not only is Arkillo naturally tough the Ring's aura protects him....it's his personal force field around him. Add to that he can make a shield/force field Construct that can further protect him. The personal Force field itself is able to take blows from powerhouses, and able to keep oxygen and pressure levels the same while the Lantern is in the Aura.

Arkillo probably is more durable than Barry, but not by much. As I've shown, Barry has survived hits from a pissed off Supergirl and took a blow from Darkseid better than Superman, Wonder Woman, or Hal Jordan were able to.

Power:

Arkillo' main advantage....he has the ability to fly, make constructs, and shoot planet busting attacks from his ring. Although Barry's powers are also vast check out what a power ring can do:

Arkillo is a ruthless fighter using teeth and claw to rip his enemy apart. Arkillo will use any method to his advantage if it would help out the Sinestro Corps. In addition, Arkillo possesses superhuman strength and durability to an undefined extent; it was, however, enough to engage in prolonged hand-to-hand combat withMongul.

This is my point. Arkillo's ability to fly, while normally a great advantage, is mitigated by his character. I've seen dozens of scans of Arkillo fighting, and 9 times out of 10 he's in melee combat, which is exactly where Barry wants him. Arkillo is hardly the most strategic fighter and I don't see why he'd sit up in the sky.

Also....planet busting? Proof, please. I know Lantern rings are capable of a lot of stuff, but that is ALWAYS determined by the user. Unless Arkillo has shown the ability to control his ring to that extent, he's hardly a planet buster. That'd be like me giving Barry some of Wally's feats just because they have the same powerset.

True...but Barry cannot pull out as much power as Clark, not to mention Supes can fly unlike Barry.


You're avoiding my point, here. I'm merely stating that Barry is a noticeable notch above Superman in combat speed. I can post the scan of him running circles around supes while trying to calm him down if you want proof (despite getting tagged eventually, I think it was fairly obvious that Superman was struggling to even keep up with Barry). There should be little to no argument that Barry is much faster than Supes, who is much faster than any Lantern, especially Hal Jordan (who he blitzed quite effortlessly).

There's no evidence to show that New 52 Darkseid's beams are faster than a Lanterns. Now although Supes was knocked out by the attcak, do we know if it was planet-busting level? Also Barry only dodged the attack because he phased through a Parademon and the OB hit it instead.


No evidence despite the fact that the Omega Beam caught Superman when Hal's constructs couldn't do crap to him? I'll let the voters decide this, but I rate Darkseid's omega beams vastly higher than any speed feat you've shown me of Arkillo. Barry was maintaining distance from it the whole time. Superman got hit. The phasing was a way to get it to stop following him so he could get back to the fight.

???

Thanks for not actually giving me a worded response to respond to here, I barely caught your questioning to my statement (which is why I detest that "respond inside the previous quotebox" style). For those reading, he put question marks after I stated that Barry's durability is on par with Superman, Hal Jordan, and Wonder Woman's because when Darkseid first came to earth and was confronted by the league, he let loose a large blast that KO'd everyone except Barry. My proof of this is that he's shown going "hnng" afterwards and walking up to confront Darkseid, while Superman and Aquaman are clearly laying there, unconscious, until Flash's beckons them to get up. Hal and Wonder Woman don't even get up, which is reasonable as Superman is more durable than either, so him getting up before them is expected. My main point was to prove that not only does Barry have superhuman durability, he took a blast on the chin better than Superman or Wonder Woman did, and that's a pretty great feat.

Yes Barry cannot Fly and making him vulnerable to attack while he himself cannot attack Arkillo. I heard electricity disrupts the frequency of an intangible object . If that's true Arkillo can shoot electric beam of energy at Barry. What attack was that? I'm pretty sure in the fight with SuperGirl Flash just went Intangible at the last second so that the knww wouldn't go through his brain as he said. Supergirl already inflicted damge on the Flash...but due to Flash's reaction time only his nose was damaged.


...What? Show me, at any point, electricity even phasing Barry's vibrating. He's vibrated an entire plane before which is filled with electricity, through a bunch of cars, which also run on electricity. Electricity has never been a counter to Barry. Heck, that junk is slow compared to him:

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One of Barry's primary enemies uses electricity as his main form of attack and it's notably useless.

I would also like to see proof that Arkillo can project electricity, even despite its uselessness, because I don't like claims and feats brought up without scans to prove it.

Secondly, Barry can vibrate himself to increase his relative density and durability. If he was phasing, his nose wouldn't get bloody. I clearly show in the very next scan that his phasing works quite well on Supergirl.

I don't know if Flash could get passed his Aura. Anyways Arkillo will probably be in the air anyways.


Barry got through the Fortress of Solitude's defenses despite them having energy shields and super dense, crystalline structure:

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I also want to point out that there is context that is relevant here: Barry could not get through H'el's extra set up defenses without help from Superboy disabling it, as shown by needing Superboy to use his powers to bust it here:

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But, neither could Superman nor Wonder Woman, and they have both utterly destroyed lantern constructs(Superman treating Hal, who has MUCH better construct feats than Arkillo, like brittle glass when they fought), so I'm thinking that H'el's shields might be a grade higher than anything Lanterns can put out. As said, Barry HAS gone through forcefields before with his phasing, but their strength may have some indication to it. I'd argue that Barry being the only one able to get inside the Fortress without a boomtube (this is how Superman and Cyborg got in later, I can post the scan if you want) shows a level of phasing beyond Superman's ability to break something, which means he should get through Lantern Auto-Shields quite reasonably. If you disagree, we would have to let the voter's decide.

What's Barry going to due Arkillo....he knows Hal's powers, does that mean he know what to do if he battles a Sinestro Corps member?

Also what if Arkillo makes a huge electric fence so ther's no way Barry wouldn't be in it , and then close it until Barry dies?

I'm operating under the assumption that sometime in their 5 years as fellow Justice League members and their established history before that (remember, Hal and Barry are best friends), Hal PROBABLY would've mentioned his arch nemesis in Sinestro and how their Yellow Rings have similar powers to Hal's green ring. Even if that wasn't the case, a guy with a glowing ring who makes constructs, has a shield, and flies would ring some noticeable bells to Barry, who knows Hal's powers like the back of his hand.

Electric fence shouldn't do anything. I've never seen electricity bother Barry's phasing before. Heck, Barry has deflected city level electromagnetic blasts with his speed and vibration before:

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While it was tiring, it had no effect on him physically and didn't interfere with his powers. This is also an homage to his Silver Age destruction of Anti-Monitor's Anti Matter cannon, but that's obviously pre-52. The main two points are that A: Electricity does nothing to Barry's powers and B: I don't see a scan of you showing Arkillo using electricity.

I also want to point out that you are unceremoniously assuming things. Even IF Barry's phasing was affected by electricity (it's not), why would Arkillo know this? Why would he fly away, completely contrary to his character, and try to erect an electric fence to counter phasing powers he doesn't even know Barry has? My point about Barry being familiar with Lantern powers is because of his friendship and experiences with Hal, Arkillo has no such knowledge of Speed Force users.

Anyhow, now that I've rebuffed all your statements, I will bring out Barry's trump card: Speed Force containment. Here's the feat:

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"But, Dredeuced," you say, "BFR is not a valid victory condition!" And I fully understand that! But Barry is not trying to win by putting Arkillo in the speed force and leaving him there to be BFR'd. No, Barry's trump card is he chooses what he pulls into the speed force. As you may know, the Speed Force is an extradimensional plane and Barry can open it up, at will, and drag anything he chooses into it. As you can see in the scans, Barry brings in Grodd, but does not bring in the spear hurtling towards his head, the shackles, or even Grodd's surrounding gorillas despite them being much closer to him than Grodd. This means Barry can selectively choose what he pulls in, and that's bad news for Arkillo.

What's to stop Barry from pulling in Arkillo, but not his ring? I mean, clearly wearing something isn't an issue, as Barry was chained up with shackles and they didn't take the trip with him. Once Arkillo is in the Speed Force with Barry, presumably ringless, he's screwed. He's nowhere near fast enough to keep up with Barry normally, much less when he's amped by being in the speed force. Grodd was faster than Barry during his arc after consuming weeks worth of Speed Force energy Barry had given to Dr. Elias, but in the speed force, Grodd couldn't even hurt him with a direct hit (thus showing the speed force increases his durability) and Barry ran circles around him(thus showing it increasing his speed), and Barry could now hurt Grodd, which he couldn't do before (thus showing the speed force increasing his striking strength):

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I, personally, don't think Arkillo has the speed or the reaction time to keep up with Barry normally. With Barry being amped by the Speed Force, it'd be like a cheetah fighting a turtle...only the cheetah can rend the turtle apart on the molecular level.

Despite his lack of flight, Barry has many ways to deal with Arkillo. Even if Arkillo completely bucked his character and realized Barry couldn't fly and started flying up high, trying to tag him with ring blasts from a distance, Barry could just dodge them for days until Arkillo ran out of lantern juice (a limitation Barry is fully aware of, given how well he knows Hal) and gets grounded or has to start preserving his energy. Even still, I'm pretty sure Barry's Speed Force pull is not limited to people who are on the ground, but even still, all he has to do is get reasonably close to Arkillo and he's pulled into the speed force. I imagine he could just start the fight off with a blitz, pull Arkillo in, and handle him from there.

I think Barry's combination of speed, phasing, molecular disintegration, incredible durability, knowledge of his opponent's powerset (while Arkillo knows nothing of speedsters) and speed force dumping has him out of Arkillo's league, especially considering Arkillo's long established penchant for being a melee range bruiser despite his ring.

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#7 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

"I would like it if you don't put bolded responses inside of my quote box. It makes it incredibly hard to track what you're saying and respond to each point individually. Just copy and past what you're responding to, highlight it, and use the "quote" button then put your rebuttal below."

I'm sorry waht do you want me to do?

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#8 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Copy and paste whatever part of my post you want to respond to. Then highlight that pasted text(as if you were going to copy it), click the "quote" button, then put your response below it.

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#9 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

Arkillo probably is more durable than Barry, but not by much. As I've shown, Barry has survived hits from a pissed off Supergirl and took a blow from Darkseid better than Superman, Wonder Woman, or Hal Jordan were able to.

I'm not sure....I need to re-read the issue...Anyaways Arkillo still has the durability advantage.

This is my point. Arkillo's ability to fly, while normally a great advantage, is mitigated by his character. I've seen dozens of scans of Arkillo fighting, and 9 times out of 10 he's in melee combat, which is exactly where Barry wants him. Arkillo is hardly the most strategic fighter and I don't see why he'd sit up in the sky.

Well I don't know he doesn't need to stay in the air usually because most of the time he beats everybody he fights lol. Anyways he is one of Sinestro's first and best recruits, and a general in the Sinestro Corps...he can't be that stupid. Normally Barry Allen is not normally to be blood lusted either, don't see how it's different for Arkillo. And besides Arkillo's used plenty of constructs...not just for Melee:

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Also....planet busting? Proof, please. I know Lantern rings are capable of a lot of stuff, but that is ALWAYS determined by the user. Unless Arkillo has shown the ability to control his ring to that extent, he's hardly a planet buster. That'd be like me giving Barry some of Wally's feats just because they have the same powerset.

Fair enough...He does though for the record have the capability....

You're avoiding my point, here. I'm merely stating that Barry is a noticeable notch above Superman in combat speed. I can post the scan of him running circles around supes while trying to calm him down if you want proof (despite getting tagged eventually, I think it was fairly obvious that Superman was struggling to even keep up with Barry). There should be little to no argument that Barry is much faster than Supes, who is much faster than any Lantern, especially Hal Jordan (who he blitzed quite effortlessly).

No I see your point...just stating that Barry can't do what Clark can do to a Lantern that's all.

Thanks for not actually giving me a worded response to respond to here, I barely caught your questioning to my statement (which is why I detest that "respond inside the previous quotebox" style). For those reading, he put question marks after I stated that Barry's durability is on par with Superman, Hal Jordan, and Wonder Woman's because when Darkseid first came to earth and was confronted by the league, he let loose a large blast that KO'd everyone except Barry. My proof of this is that he's shown going "hnng" afterwards and walking up to confront Darkseid, while Superman and Aquaman are clearly laying there, unconscious, until Flash's beckons them to get up. Hal and Wonder Woman don't even get up, which is reasonable as Superman is more durable than either, so him getting up before them is expected. My main point was to prove that not only does Barry have superhuman durability, he took a blast on the chin better than Superman or Wonder Woman did, and that's a pretty great feat.

No need to be rude....I'm sorry I didn't give a worded response...I asked it on another sentence and I put my question marks there to show you in your statement I had my question on. I did not know where it showed Flash took hit the others did not, thank you for clarifying. Again though I'm going to need to re read the issue again. What do you mean blast to the chin? If you are talking about the fight with Supergirl I'm clear on the belief that Supergirl hit the Flash in the nose, but before it could do any major Damage, Barry phased through. It does not matter though as you yurself said Arkillo can take more punishment.

...What? Show me, at any point, electricity even phasing Barry's vibrating. He's vibrated an entire plane before which is filled with electricity, through a bunch of cars, which also run on electricity. Electricity has never been a counter to Barry. Heck, that junk is slow compared to him:

It doesn't matter never mind.

But, neither could Superman nor Wonder Woman, and they have both utterly destroyed lantern constructs(Superman treating Hal, who has MUCH better construct feats than Arkillo, like brittle glass when they fought), so I'm thinking that H'el's shields might be a grade higher than anything Lanterns can put out. As said, Barry HAS gone through forcefields before with his phasing, but their strength may have some indication to it. I'd argue that Barry being the only one able to get inside the Fortress without a boomtube (this is how Superman and Cyborg got in later, I can post the scan if you want) shows a level of phasing beyond Superman's ability to break something, which means he should get through Lantern Auto-Shields quite reasonably. If you disagree, we would have to let the voter's decide.

1) Let's not forget that Hal has drawn blood from Superman before...

2) Well it's different because breaking Something and going through something are different. Though I do think that Barry could get inside his shield.

I'm operating under the assumption that sometime in their 5 years as fellow Justice League members and their established history before that (remember, Hal and Barry are best friends), Hal PROBABLY would've mentioned his arch nemesis in Sinestro and how their Yellow Rings have similar powers to Hal's green ring. Even if that wasn't the case, a guy with a glowing ring who makes constructs, has a shield, and flies would ring some noticeable bells to Barry, who knows Hal's powers like the back of his hand.

Good point, but would Barry know what to do if he saw one?

While it was tiring, it had no effect on him physically and didn't interfere with his powers. This is also an homage to his Silver Age destruction of Anti-Monitor's Anti Matter cannon, but that's obviously pre-52. The main two points are that A: Electricity does nothing to Barry's powers and B: I don't see a scan of you showing Arkillo using electricity.

Arkillo can make electricity, but forget the idea as I have no evidence to support that intangibility effects Flash at all.

"But, Dredeuced," you say, "BFR is not a valid victory condition!" And I fully understand that! But Barry is not trying to win by putting Arkillo in the speed force and leaving him there to be BFR'd. No, Barry's trump card is he chooses what he pulls into the speed force. As you may know, the Speed Force is an extradimensional plane and Barry can open it up, at will, and drag anything he chooses into it. As you can see in the scans, Barry brings in Grodd, but does not bring in the spear hurtling towards his head, the shackles, or even Grodd's surrounding gorillas despite them being much closer to him than Grodd. This means Barry can selectively choose what he pulls in, and that's bad news for Arkillo.

What's to stop Barry from pulling in Arkillo, but not his ring? I mean, clearly wearing something isn't an issue, as Barry was chained up with shackles and they didn't take the trip with him. Once Arkillo is in the Speed Force with Barry, presumably ringless, he's screwed. He's nowhere near fast enough to keep up with Barry normally, much less when he's amped by being in the speed force. Grodd was faster than Barry during his arc after consuming weeks worth of Speed Force energy Barry had given to Dr. Elias, but in the speed force, Grodd couldn't even hurt him with a direct hit (thus showing the speed force increases his durability) and Barry ran circles around him(thus showing it increasing his speed), and Barry could now hurt Grodd, which he couldn't do before (thus showing the speed force increasing his striking strength):

It's valid and fine...it presents a good argument. Lanterns can open wormholes and teleport, so I think Arkillo could get out.

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I, personally, don't think Arkillo has the speed or the reaction time to keep up with Barry normally. With Barry being amped by the Speed Force, it'd be like a cheetah fighting a turtle...only the cheetah can rend the turtle apart on the molecular level.

Despite his lack of flight, Barry has many ways to deal with Arkillo. Even if Arkillo completely bucked his character and realized Barry couldn't fly and started flying up high, trying to tag him with ring blasts from a distance, Barry could just dodge them for days until Arkillo ran out of lantern juice (a limitation Barry is fully aware of, given how well he knows Hal) and gets grounded or has to start preserving his energy. Even still, I'm pretty sure Barry's Speed Force pull is not limited to people who are on the ground, but even still, all he has to do is get reasonably close to Arkillo and he's pulled into the speed force. I imagine he could just start the fight off with a blitz, pull Arkillo in, and handle him from there.

I think Barry's combination of speed, phasing, molecular disintegration, incredible durability, knowledge of his opponent's powerset (while Arkillo knows nothing of speedsters) and speed force dumping has him out of Arkillo's league, especially considering Arkillo's long established penchant for being a melee range bruiser despite his ring.

You say that Barry could bring Arkillo into the speed force where he is king, right? Well why can't Arkillo bring Barry into space he couldn't breath or do things he could normally do. This isn't BFR either as Arkillo is hjust simply bringing him into his domain. Also what if Arkillo put a huge bubble around the earth cutting the air supply so that Flash could not breathe? Also lanterns can access their lanterns via portal/wormhole.

I already showed what the power ring can do on an earlier post....now Arkillo can control the temperature meaning he can make it extremely cold in which he could replicate this scenario:

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I believe that although Barry is fast, Arkillo's strength, durability, the ability to fly, and his overall power set power could overcome it.

Arkillo has a lot of things in his back pocket he could use, but rarely uses it because he does not need to. That being said I've listed three ways I believe Arkillo would win....what can Flash do to defend against these things? Arkillo although hasn't shown has the ability to destroy planets with a blast, make physical representations of anything he can see in his mind, and can fly.

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#10 Posted by Lvenger (36168 posts) - - Show Bio

If voting is open I'll give my vote to @dredeuced:in a surprising display of coherent arguments with very relevant feats to support his point. I thought you would have your hands full only using New 52 Barry's feats but you pulled one heck of a strategy out of the bag.

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#11 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

If voting is open I'll give my vote to @dredeuced:in a surprising display of coherent arguments with very relevant feats to support his point. I thought you would have your hands full only using New 52 Barry's feats but you pulled one heck of a strategy out of the bag.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm perfectly fine with the arguments I've presented. Barry's got no more relevant feats to bring up here (well he's got some whirlwind stuff and some leaping feats but not really a big part of my strategy), so if Clark_el is good, I'd be happy for voting to start. Thank you for the compliments.

Just touching up a couple of points made by @clark_el:

It's valid and fine...it presents a good argument. Lanterns can open wormholes and teleport, so I think Arkillo could get out.

Ah, but you see, wormholes only lead to different parts of the same universe -- they're not dimensional transportation. Also, as I said, Barry can bring Arkillo in without his ring, thus robbing him of the power to teleport, anyhow.

You say that Barry could bring Arkillo into the speed force where he is king, right? Well why can't Arkillo bring Barry into space he couldn't breath or do things he could normally do. This isn't BFR either as Arkillo is hjust simply bringing him into his domain. Also what if Arkillo put a huge bubble around the earth cutting the air supply so that Flash could not breathe? Also lanterns can access their lanterns via portal/wormhole.

I already showed what the power ring can do on an earlier post....now Arkillo can control the temperature meaning he can make it extremely cold in which he could replicate this scenario:

First, I don't think Arkillo could catch Barry to drag him anywhere. I don't think Barry would have a hard time keeping up with Arkillo and enacting my plan, though. That's one of the main benefits of a massive speed advantage. Also, I mean, putting a bubble around the Earth wouldn't get rid of any of the air. There'd just be a big yellow bubble around it. I also maintain that this is greatly out of Arkillo's character.

Secondly, does Arkillo know that Absolute Zero affects Barry's speed negatively? Also, I would like to point out that in that fight you posted, Flash was specifically forcing himself to hold back, as he thought using his power caused massive rifts to open up and suck people into the timestream, as stated here by Dr. Elias:

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That's why you see those little warnings pop up everytime Barry uses his powers during the fight -- he thinks he can't use his powers without causing a lot of harm, when in fact it is a rogue named Turbine who is causing the accidents. Barry later on frees Turbine from his accidental imprisonment in the Speed Force and is free to use his powers to their fullest. He even chumps Cold and Heatwave rather effortlessly, later, when he is able to freely use his speed:

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As you can see, when Barry isn't forced to limit himself for plot related reasons, neither Cold nor Heatwave's auras even affect him when he kicks it into high speed -- and Cold is literally the only being in DCU who has shown the ability to project absolute zero, as far as I'm aware, so he's clearly succeeded against much worse temperatures than what Arkillo can put out. Hardly a valid tactic, even if Arkillo was aware that Absolute Zero can marginally slow Barry.

(This is one of those tricks Barry has that I didn't post earlier as it is irrelevant vs someone who has GL anti suffocation space aura. Though Barry could do this after he separates him from the ring, if he's bloodlusted he'd probably just molecularly disintegrate him).

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#12 Edited by Lvenger (36168 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Clark-El has mentioned all of us participating in this tourney in a comment and said that voting should start so I guess that means voting is open.

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#13 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@dredeuced: Clark-El has mentioned all of us participating in this tourney in a comment and said that voting should start so I guess that means voting is open.

If that's the case then thank you for the vote. I'd still rather Clark get time to respond to my latest rebuttal, so I would appreciate it if you did keep an eye on the thread in case he pulls out a homerun argument.

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#14 Edited by Lvenger (36168 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Understood. I would have thought clark-el would have put up another argument to counter your one. Didn't you get his message? He included you in it too.

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#15 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@dredeuced: Understood. I would have thought clark-el would have put up another argument to counter your one. Didn't you get his message? He included you in it too.

I thought he was just giving us the victory parameters(first to 5 votes) rather than opening voting, but I could very well be wrong.

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#16 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

Secondly, does Arkillo know that Absolute Zero affects Barry's speed negatively? Also, I would like to point out that in that fight you posted, Flash was specifically forcing himself to hold back, as he thought using his power caused massive rifts to open up and suck people into the timestream, as stated here by Dr. Elias:

His molecules slow down so he's slower and I think it stated he can't phase through objects. Well he went above anyways he stopped holding back at the end to save Patty.

and Cold is literally the only being in DCU who has shown the ability to project absolute zero, as far as I'm aware, so he's clearly succeeded against much worse temperatures than what Arkillo can put out. Hardly a valid tactic, even if Arkillo was aware that Absolute Zero can marginally slow Barry.

Arkillo can still go absolute zero, and his ring can always tell him how to deal with an enemy...it finds weak points.

Ah, but you see, wormholes only lead to different parts of the same universe -- they're not dimensional transportation. Also, as I said, Barry can bring Arkillo in without his ring, thus robbing him of the power to teleport, anyhow.

Maybe...

Anyways

Let the voting Commence!!!

5 votes to win

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#17 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

I've actually never seen a Lantern project Absolute Zero. One of the more common calling cards in the Flash series when dealing with Captain Cold is that he is a genius in thermodynamic physics and is the only person to have ever been able to project absolute zero. I'm no expert on Lanterns but that would sure put a damper on Snart's one claim to fame, lol.

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#18 Posted by FireThunder (68 posts) - - Show Bio

Arkillo is tough but barry will overcome him. Anyway, I vote for Barry Allen

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#19 Posted by 18hunt (3337 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Arkillo, not only for feats, but for my belief. New 52 flash can't beat him!

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#20 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

You're not supposed to be voting for the characters. :(

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#21 Posted by Charetter115 (523 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote Dredeuced

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#22 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by Lvenger (36168 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Nope my vote still goes to you mate. I'm impressed with your New 52 Barry Allen knowledge. Is the series good by the way? I've heard mixed views about it.

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#25 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@dredeuced: Nope my vote still goes to you mate. I'm impressed with your New 52 Barry Allen knowledge. Is the series good by the way? I've heard mixed views about it.

It's got its ups and downs. I'm still trying to get used to the fact that they've retconned Wally out of existence and that Barry is a bit more...bland than Wally. The plot induced restriction of his power and the whole "GRODD CAN EAT SPEED FORCE" thing was a bit...dumb, but if you can stretch your mind past that, the character interaction and fight scenes are great, and they did a good job making a few of his rogues a bit less silly (turning The Top into Turbine and the change to Glider). Kind of sad that they've turned Mirror Master into a lunatic stuck in his own mirror universe, though. He was always one of The Flash's more interesting villains with a powerset that can actually stand up to overpowered speedsters. The art is absolutely fantastic, though. Manapul has really outdone himself.

They're about to introduce the new Reverse Flash, which could be great or could be awful, depending on how they execute it.

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#26 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: That's what I meant.

@dredeuced:@lvenger: Hey this is a serious question, but if I lose and the other people who were in the tournament don't show up, would it be Ok to argue for them just so the tournament will progress?

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#27 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@clark_el said:

@dredeuced: That's what I meant.

@dredeuced:@lvenger: Hey this is a serious question, but if I lose and the other people who were in the tournament don't show up, would it be Ok to argue for them just so the tournament will progress?

I'd say take it up with whoever their opponent was, first.

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#28 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Yep, but I'm going to wait a little bit, and see how this match goes down.

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#29 Posted by New_World_Order (14895 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Edited by oceanmaster21 (15140 posts) - - Show Bio

it was a great debate but my vote goes to Clark EL

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#31 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

4-2.

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#33 Edited by DedrabbiT (653 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for dredeuced. Good arguement mate.

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#34 Posted by Lvenger (36168 posts) - - Show Bio

@clark_el: I second what dredeuced says. Wait for a bit then take it up with the other opponent.

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#35 Posted by Nefarious (35638 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Clark.

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#36 Posted by age_of_ultron_Prime2000 (1226 posts) - - Show Bio

Clark

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#37 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

That would be 6-4. I believe that ends the voting process?

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#39 Edited by Clark_EL (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: yep...good match my friend.

You move on.

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#40 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

I basically had to post every single New-52 Barry Allen showing besides the JL Dark and Captain Atom ones, lol. Close fight.

Shame the recent Flash #18 didn't show anything new, was hoping reverse Flash would show up like he did at the end of 17 and do some stuff, instead we get Barry talking to the Trickster for an entire issue. :(