City Levelers Vs High Tier Street Levelers

City Levelers:

Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Namor, Aquaman, Wonderman, War Machine

Vs

High Tier Street Levelers:

Midnighter , Spider-man (Black Ops), Backlash (purple whips), Nemesis, Warblade, Iron Fist

Conditions:

• Morals On
• Wildstorm versions of all on the HT Street team
• No Prep
• Random Encounter
• Win by KO, Death or Incap

Location:

I only looked cuz I was hoping for Hawksmoor when I saw "city levelers" but you got me with that street team. Right now I'm leanin on the city side but lemme have a think.

First, I have a hard time considering Wildstorm's version of MN as street level. High level street or otherwise. That said;

Too much ranged potential on the "city" levelers side of things. Iron Man and War Machine could wreak absolute havoc from afar. Midnighter might identify that threat, and backed by his almighty battle computer use his doors to do something about it, but I see this as the city level folks' fight to lose at this point.

I think the City Levelers should win. The High Tier Streets (Although I would label them as Mid-Level), all have the capacity to harm the City Guys (with the exception of What-If Spider Man), but almost every member of the City Levelers can fly, and most the ones who do, have some sort of Ranged attacks. BFR isn't allowed, but flying characters off into space would count as death for most of these cats (which Ms Marvel has done to a WWH Skrull), unless Midnighter comes for a quick save via his doors.

I honestly think the Street Team has the edge in Close quarter combat, with Midnighter's ridiculous striking powers, combat speed and Battle Computer, Nem's sword, Forcefields and DNA Grenades, Iron Fist Chi's etc, but they don't outclass the High-Tiers to the degree where they get overwhelmed before the high tiers start to bring in Ranged abilites and flight into play. I do find What-If Peter to be a weak link, pains me to say. I don't see what he could do apart from cause a distraction (he's too weak to cause damage via blunt trauma and his webbing can be broken). His avoidance can matched by Backlash and Midnighter. Even his infamous precog, is at best, only equal to Middy's. If you gave him Kaine's/The Other Peter's stingers, I'd actually argue for him to be able to take Namor or Aquaman one on one though.

Interesting to see how the team bring down Warblade though.....

Any thread with so many Wildstorm characters is @buckshot and @citizenbane territory.

Thoughts?

@buckshot: I almost put Hawksmoor in. Was very very tempted but I didn't think it would balance if I did. Jack can do some crazy crap in a city environment!

City Levellers ftw

@laflux: would Carol do that with morals on though? We also have Backlash's ability to mist-kill thrown and yeah I agree What If Spider-man is basically a distraction but with speed and enhanced spider-sense he could be a good one or even pull a fastball with Danny lol

Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Namor, Aquaman, Wonderman, War Machine

Does City level mean you can destroy a city or takeover/rule a city? also i think the bold people are above city.

My thoughts echo stuff that's been said about Doors. The range and destructive capability of the city team pretty much hand this to them, with Doors being the only thing to buy the others time and maybe a win. Nemesis could ride out an attack with her force fields, and Warblade (nice to see him included) and Backlash could survive and come back, but to actually get into this fight in any real way (assuming the city team uses their range effectively), Doors would be essential. But that's obvious, and Midnighter wouldn't need a combat computer to tell him that. With that in mind it seems likely that Midnighter's first move would be to send out his teammates, dropping them on or near the best targets for each of them. Since he has the control of the Doors and the ability to assess not only the enemies but his own team, he's capable of making the best matches. Unfortunately Midnighter's not much of a communicator and even though the City Team isn't likely to rain fire the instant the fight starts, he probably won't decide to start communicating before things get serious. That means it's possible his team might be just as surprised as the City team when they get Doored to their targets. On the other hand, a simple "I'm sending you closer to them, be ready to strike" doesn't seem beyond Midnighter so he might give them at least that heads up to make sure they're effective. Some of the street characters (Nemesis, Iron Fist, Warblade, Midnighter) could one-shot some of the targets or at least leave the open to a finisher from someone more capable after they killed or disabled their own. I'm not Midnighter but I could see him prioritizing Iron Man, War Machine, Captain Marvel, and Wonder Man for the first wave. Or maybe he'd hold off on Wonder Man because he's a pacifist and he'd know it.

I think once the range is removed and with the speed/surprise with which it could be done, the street team could win this fight with few casualties.

He'd solo.

City Levelers win. This is almost a mismatch.

Waiting for someone to tell me why I'm wrong.

no one wants to fall under your wrath..........

Agreed

boooooooooooo. can't have any fun with it without someone to talk to.

The ironman in that pic is HAX

with the city at the beck of his call he alone can do a lot of damage to the other team

City levelers win.

P.S. Midnighter is more of a low-end, not street level.

Try to bait someone in lol!

Oh with regards to the Midnighter Vs Backlash thread i'd love to keep going with it but right now I just don't have the time. I'll leave it up and will try to come back to it at a later date when i'm not so busy. Thanks so much for the time you invested into debating with me and i'm quite happy to grant Midnighter the win for that thread not just because I have to bail out by default but because I believe you made the stronger case. As usual I had a blast debating with you (despite the fact you like to tear me apart!)

@strider92: Bait won't work. Everyone on the city leveler side seems to be acting like my posts don't exist. But maybe a direct challenge to people who had a chance to see it before they posted.

As for the other thread. I enjoyed it too. You did well.

Why?

Why?

Why?

@buckshot: They're more stacked w/ heavy-hitters than the street team.

@buckshot: I voted for city levelers cause Aquaman is much faster than team 2, but i only know 4 of the 6. now normally that'd make me not comment or vote but because i think he's much stronger and faster than 4 of those 6, i decided to vote. I think Aquaman can one shot 4 of the 6.

City level win due to durability and range, by the time street team come out with a strategy, most of them will be dead, and is not like Midnighter solo

True but they all have something to bring to the table. Nemesis with her creation blades:

Backlash's ability to Mist-Kill from the inside out:

And Warblade's invulnerability and the ability to slice through basically anything:

cutting Captain Atom

Of course they are, that's what the team is, but why does that mean victory? Any of those heavy hitters would go down to Nemesis' Creation Blades. Majestic is a heavy hitter and look what happened when Nemesis was allowed to get close to him:

Is Aquaman faster than Midnighter can Door people? Is he going to be one-shotting everyone as soon as the fight starts if he's in character? Nemesis can also one shot 4 out of 6 of the other team...and then the remaining 2.

Range is negated by Doors and durability can be overcome by Nemesis and Warblade (and those aren't the only ones that can do damage, just the ones that can easily one-shot. Midnighter, Iron Fist, and Backlash are debatable on that measure but could still do considerable damage even if they don't kill in one hit). The street team would have a strategy before the city team thanks to Midnighter.

@buckshot said:

@carter_esque said:

@buckshot: They're more stacked w/ heavy-hitters than the street team.

Of course they are, that's what the team is, but why does that mean victory? Any of those heavy hitters would go down to Nemesis' Creation Blades. Majestic is a heavy hitter and look what happened when Nemesis was allowed to get close to him:

You're referring to this?:

Looks like the only pain she inflicted on Maj was to his pride..

@citizenbane: True but Spider-man knows Iron Fist and he also has perfect pre-cognition here:

He wouldn't need to trust Midnighter to know if his plan would work as he would see it for himself and as IF trusts Spidey he wouldn't take much convincing. Not to mention they could pull of the same move IF and Spider-man did in New Avengers where Spider-man used his web to swing him at the enemy and with perfect pre-cog he's got a good chance of hitting:

Just food for thought.

A pity that no one on the city team even comes close to Majestic's durability, damage soak, and regen. None of them would survive a similar attack. The image wasn't to say Nemesis beat Majestic so she kills everyone here, but to show her being able of inflicting attacks that would kill anyone here as long as she got close (that it was on someone faster, stronger, and more skilled that anyone here is a bonus).

Wish we had more time to chat but im about to be fairly busy. Thanks for having something different to say.

Midnighter coordinating strikes with people is the biggest leap, you're right on that, but I don't think an unreasonable one, or a fight deciding one if he or his teammates end up not going for it. I think the team falling in line with Midnighter is about as big a stretch as the city team deciding to wipe out the street team from a distance. Not just because blanket fire on a city without any precursor is uncommon (though it is), but because they'd be deciding to target teammates. The street team isn't all Avengers, but I don't see Captain Marvel being ready to kill Spider-Man (even if he looks different) or Iron Fist in such a way without a reason. And if they were going to, Midnighter would know it first. In fact, the city team being willing to do it may make midnighter's response more likely. As it goes though, even if Nemesis was the only one who went for it, I think that's all that would be needed. One unstoppable assassin taking targets down without them being able to do anything about it. And any street character that doesn't go for Midnighter's plan is likely to die and only encourage others to (assuming they survive their own way). And if Nemesis doesn't go the first round and Midnighter goes alone, strapping a nuke onto someone's face while his team gets shot up for not following his lead, I think she'd step in line immediately after seeing how effective the tactic is. So really, thought getting all his team with him would be ideal, I think getting Nemesis on board is all that's necessary. But that takes us to back if Midnighter would even go this route. As I said, it's the biggest leap in my argument, but I don't think it's entirely without precedent, even if he hasn't done the exact thing before. We know he'll come up with it (if it was my first thought for an easy win, I think he'll get to it) and I think given that he's shown willing to use the Carrier for targets he couldn't or wasn't going to kill on his own, I think he would. He's used the Carrier's Doors for quick escapes and he's even flown it into a target he was unable to destroy himself. I think ordering characters to take down targets for him isn't too much different from making the carrier shoot a dozen or so targets that he's set up. He prefers to do things himself no doubt, and I think he could get a couple, but he can't guerilla strike them all at once. However he has shown that he'll let something else pull the trigger for him. You bring up him not doing it in more dire situations (though I think the 5 scenarios situation you're recalling is from when he took on the Mercs on his own when he was sent through time by Void, not when he was part of Earth's forces against Sebastian) but I don't think it's need that brings it on. The way he went through those faux-men before having the Carrier destroy them and his seeming lack of care and statements suggests he didn't HAVE to have the Carrier kill them. He likely could have cleared them out on his own, but he did it another way cuz he felt like it for some reason. With that in mind, I don't think him not doing it when in more danger suggests he won't do it here. But that's all I've got time for. Thanks again for some conversation.

@buckshot: If keeping their distance from her is all they gotta do then I don't see why they wouldn't be able to do that. With those pesky blades, I could see her taking down the ground-based threats like Namor and Arthur; she can't fly so she's not much of a threat to the enemies that can unless they try to blitz imo. And it's not like she's gonna catch them off guard w/ a sneak attack like she did w/ the unsuspecting Majestic.

I don't think you understand how teleportation works.

City levelers ftw.

Mismatch

I do actually. I also how long-range weaponry and projectiles work too; of course she could dodge these but it's more likely that she'd get tagged by one of the four combatants who possess them.

Going to go with the City Levelers here.

You said you don't see why they wouldn't be able to keep their distance, but she'd be able to teleport directly to them, and would be getting guided by someone who can see their movements before they even know they're going to make them. You said she's no threat to enemies that can fly, but she'd be able to teleport directly to them, and would be getting guided by someone who can see their movements before they even know they're going to make them. Care to explain why Nemesis would have a problem getting close? The ONLY reason that can really be suggested for her not being able to do so is that Midnighter might not decide to lead such an attack. As for the likelihood of her getting tagged, given her ability to predict her opponents' attacks and a force field capable of standing up to explosions that brought down Majestic, I don't see why she'd have a problem with any of their attacks. Especially considering they're not going to go all out on her for no reason.

Thinking about it, Nemesis might be the one to get the Door plan going. Assuming the city team decides to carpet bomb the street team (though I think it's interesting that this highly unlikely, however practical, tactic is being seen as a given while Midnighter Dooring people isn't...when it's even considered at all), Midnighter, Warblade, Nemesis, Backlash are going to survive. Scenarios could be fabricated for the survival of Iron Fist and Spider-Man, but that's unnecessary. If Midnighter doesn't decide to start Dooring people by then, Nemesis (or Backlash for that matter) could decide it's a good plan, and are not so headstrong and independent that they'd throw away the tactic and opt for a fist fight with the option right there. Both characters would have knowledge enough of The Authority's Doors to realize they could be a good way to close gaps and avoid further fire. So the plan, which already provided a pretty easy win, is now even more likely.

If only there were some reasons...

I don't know much about Team 2, so can anyone tell me how they would hurt Wonder Man? He's ionic form grants him invulnerability from most physical attacks.

They don't have to. He's a pacifist. Once the rest of his team is gone he won't be capable of winning.

But really, Nemesis' Creation Blades cut through anything. When used on a reality warper they proved so effective that he was unable to fix the damage, tap more of his power, or even move. It's possible the blades won't kill Wonder Man, but at the very least they'd incapacitate him.

@buckshot:

Thanks for answering me. I never knew that Creation Blades could cut 'reality', so to speak.

Also, I was under the impression, for the sake of the battle, Wonder Man would fight, because it would be irrelevant to add him, since he's a pacifist.

If that's the case, it should have been stated in the OP. The only thing stated was that the characters were functioning with their normal attitudes, and as far as I know, Wonder Man is still a pacifist. Maybe he's there to talk people down, obstruct enemies or rescue teammates. We can really only follow the stipulations that were given. (And if we say Wonder Man is going to ignore his personality and do what is most needed to win this fight, then it really only makes things worse for his team, cuz then the only thing even coming close to keeping the street team from winning easily is the possibility that Midnighter won't start Dooring his team to perfect targets.)

@buckshot:

I understand your basis, I just think it's weird to include him in a battle, if he's actually not fighting. I think it would have been better to include another character altogether.

But thanks for your input, I really have no knowledge of Wildstorm characters, so I was interested in what they could do.

@omgomgwtfwtf: I think Wonder Man's inclusion is an interesting element.

No problem, thanks for talking to me about the fight.

@buckshot: Buckshot nobody can win against you. Why should I be the first one to try? Due to my lack of knowledge on Midnighter and some of the other Street levelers it forbids me from providing enough analysis on the fight so forgive. You could be a hundred percent right though I just don't know. Does Midnighter have any resistance against Aquaman TP, TP on the level capable of Mind raping a White martian or can he can he contend with a guy who can send Superman flying with his punches? That along with the other City levelers like Tony and others is what gives them the edge to me.

Very reasonable argument. I can see how this could play out exactly the way you describe here.

Lol if a street level can beat a city level then they are not street level.

That's what I was wondering too.

it looks like a lot of the city level team can solo....this is a stomp.

It removes a lot of the pride (which in my mind is the main cause of a lot of arguments) if you don't think of this in terms of winning or losing. We're just talking about how this situation might play out. Anyway, before looking at Midnighter's resistance (he has some), whether or not his brain still has those parts, if his altered biology and defense systems would protect him, whether Aquaman would do that in this situation where he already seems likely to win, if he could find Midnighter and do it fast enough, or other variables, I'd ask if Aquaman has displayed that ability in his New 52 form, since that's the one fighting. Since it was a one-off feat before Flashpoint, I kind of doubt he's done it since, but maybe he has. As for his ability to fight someone as strong as Aquaman, forgetting for a second (which a lot of people seem quick to do) that he need not actually get in a fist fight with him, Midnighter has displayed the ability to damage characters of massive durability.

Not true at all if these labels are only being used to describe vague power levels. For the most part the street characters can't output the kind of energy or destruction that any of them city team can. But you can win a fight without simply overpowering your opponent. Not every fight is a game of punch face to see who hits harder.

smh...

@buckshot: I gotta ask, if Nemesis could possibly solo every member of the city team like you claim, doesn't that make this scenario kind of unfair for them?