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#1 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

Challenge A Viner - X-23 Vs Deathstroke:

Deathstroke- Me // X-23- @watcher5000
Deathstroke- Me // X-23- @watcher5000

Stipulations:

  • Rebirth/Pre-Flashpoint Deathstroke
    • Current gear minus the Ikon Suit
  • Current 616 Laura Kinney
  • In character/morals on
  • Random encounter
  • No outside interference
  • Victory by knockout or death

Location:

  • Starts 15 feet apart

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#2 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: I switched it up a tiny bit so we aren't just repeating ourselves. Let me know what you think.

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#3 Posted by lubub55 (12875 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#4 Posted by Vertigo- (17679 posts) - - Show Bio

My thoughts on this:

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T4V. GL to you both

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#5 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington said:

@watcher5000: I switched it up a tiny bit so we aren't just repeating ourselves. Let me know what you think.

Can I have Laura determined to win while still in character?

Edit: nvm it doesn't really matter I guess.

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#6 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Yah sure, no problem. Here's to a good debate.

The Terminator:

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Bio:

Slade Wilson joined the army at 16 and quickly rose through the ranks, becoming the best of the best through brutal training under his then Captain and future ex-wife Adeline Kane. Slade was given an anti-truth serum that turned him into something more than human, but dropped out of the military and went AWOL to save his friend William Randolph Wintergreen from a Viet Cong prison camp. Without the army in his life, Slade became an assassin with the name of Deathstroke, which hurt, killed, and broke the rest of his family. Wintergreen stayed by his side, and Slade is now a super villain with the skill, physicals, and gear to come up against anyone in the DC Universe. He is officially the world's deadliest assassin.

Strength:

Deathstroke is a metahuman, and has proven himself physically stronger than DC's best peak humans and capable of fighting equally with other superhumans. I'd say he is capable of lifting well over a ton over his head, and is stronger than other superhumans such as Captain America. One of his more recent and lower-end feats was when he effortlessly pulled apart Superman's handcuffs in Deathstroke Vol. 4 #8 (2016):

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And as lifting strength and striking power aren't the same thing I feel it's appropriate to show off how hard Slade can hit. Deathstroke was weakened in Deathstroke the Terminator #14 (1992), having been rendered exactly half as strong and fast as his regular self in the beginning of the issue, but he was still strong enough to break Nightwing's grip without issue and punch him once in the face, leaving him on the ground struggling to speak:

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What makes this more impressive is that Deathstroke actively holds back against Nightwing. By his own admission he possesses the strength to rip him apart, but he has never actually tried to kill him. When Deathstroke doesn't hold back he's capable of punching jaws off and knocking out metahumans, which I can get into later. I think Deathstroke holds an advantage over Laura is strength and that is both significant and decisive. He often abuses his superior strength to overwhelm his opponents so I believe it's safe to say it will be a deciding factor in this fight.

Speed:

Deathstroke is certainly faster than he is strong. I tend to break down speed into three main categories: perception, reaction, and overall movement/combat speed. The thing is, though, that Deathstroke's perception, reaction, and to some degree his movement speed are all one and the same. As Slade himself has stated in The New Titans #62 (1990), he moves as quickly as he thinks, and seeing as he is an enhanced individual it allows him to move faster than a relatively normal man (Beast Boy) can themselves think:

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Perhaps a more in-depth example of what I'm talking about came just a few issues later in The New Titans #73 (1991).In this issue Slade's perceptions were shown to be able of increasing and slowing time for him for him, but he could still move fast enough to blitz across the room performing agile movements and dodging the Wildebeests' laser-like weaponry. The fact that Deathstroke was so sure of himself proves that this was no accident:

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Jumping to present day we have seen that Deathstroke is fast enough to block and eventually deflect Superman's heat vision with his Promethium sword in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #8 (2016). This is a type of feat that I can't imagine the highest-end street-levelers being capable of replicating, especially Laura Kinney:

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I know I'm kind of jumping through entire decades, but I can provide a long list of faster-than-eyesight movement, bullet-timing, and blitzing feats between the above scan and the previous two feats. I don't want to take anything away from that showing, though. It is a Midnighter-level speed feat (Post-Flashpoint, that is) and I sincerely doubt Laura is capable of the same thing. Laura's best speed feat of which I am aware was killing two people during the span of a camera flash, but honestly even that first showing against Beast Boy in on par, and Slade has gotten far faster since then.

Healing Factor:

Laur's healing factor is without a doubt superior to Slade's and I believe it to be her biggest advantage in this fight, but I want to point out that Slade's own healing factor is capable of keeping him in the fight after he inevitably takes a few hits. In Deathstroke the Terminator Annual #4 (1995) Slade got stabbed and had his throat and wrist slashed, and not only did it not take him out of the fight, he healed it all in moments:

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Moreover, in Teen Titans Vol. 3 #44 (2007) Slade was impaled by his son Jericho but was shown to be lifting him and choking him with one arm several pages later in the issue, meaning that Slade will be able to suffer through being impaled by Kinney if/when it comes to that:

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Dismemberment, head stabs, and decapitation are all viable against Slade, but I think Slade will prove all around too powerful and skilled for that to happen. Slade is stupidly imposing and I think I've proven that he can take as many of Laura's strikes as he needs to.

Skill:

Deathstroke is a master strategist and tactician, an exceptional martial artist, and is capable of diverting his enemies' attention along with disappearing between the blink of his own daughter. Adeline Kane taught Slade to peripherally defend himself on all sides at once, which is a statement I've quoted literally word for word from Deathstroke the Terminator #1 (1991):

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On top of that, both the Joker and Green Arrow have compared Deathstroke's fighting style directly to Batman's in Deathstroke Vol. 1 #58 (1996) and Identity Crisis #3 (2004) respectively which should put him on a very high-level in the martial arts landscape:

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His actual showings are on a much higher level than Laura's. In Teen Titans Vol. 3 #46 (2007) Slade went untouched by a team of Titans including Donna Troy, Ravager, and Nightwing while holding back. I don't think that Laura's has ever come close to proving she could replicate this:

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Deathstroke even commented that they always make the mistake of going hand-to-hand with him and that he could keep it up all day. I don't think that Laura's showings of, say, outperforming Wolverine really, truly put her up to par.

Equipment:

Deathstroke carries an energy lance/battle staff that was shown to be spammable in Deathstroke Vol. 4 #13 (2017) when he used it against Raptor and capable of stunning Superman when shot at pointblank range in Deathstroke Vol. 4 #8 (2016):

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Deathstroke also carries a sword made of volatile Promethium. Christopher Priest, Slade's current writer, has stressed that the sword in unbreakable time and time again in interviews and whatnot, and Slade has used it to cut Superman straight across his chest in Deathstroke Vol. 4 #8 (2016):

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With that said, I'm confident that Slade's Promethium sword will hold against Laura's adamantium claws. Then the fight will become a matter of speed and skill, and I'm just as confident in Slade outdoing Laura in both. Those aren't the only two factors in the fight, of course, but I think they're enough to secure Slade's victory.

The Wrap Up:

  • Deathstroke is stronger and faster than X-23.
  • Deathstroke has a good enough healing factor for this fight.
  • Deathstroke is substantially more skilled than X-23.
  • Deathstroke holds a gear advantage over her as well.

Your turn, Boyo.

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#8 Edited by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio

I know that a CaV is about debating skills, but how is the "Watcher5000" supposed to win a CaV like this ?

I am just curious, because Ive seen many CaV mismatches like this before ...

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#9 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for voters.

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#10 Posted by The_Magister (13461 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#11 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

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Introduction

X-23 is a product of the Weapon X program cloned from a sample of Wolverine's DNA. She was abused by her makers in an attempt to make her the perfect weapon.She eventually escaped from them,joined the X-men and is the current Wolverine.

Skills

While Slade may hold the edge here it is important to mention how skilled Laura is.

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1.Because of her training she is always is thinking of the fastest and most efficient way to kill someone and this requires no effort on her part.

2.She is regarded as the deadliest assassin in the world by Daken.

3. Knows over 26 ways to kill someone with signs of an attack.

4.Because of her skill, claws and healing factor she is said to have no equal in combat.

She also did pretty well against old man logan who was listed at a seven for skills in his character bio.

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Strength

X-23 was able to block a punch from Jubilee

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And she was able to kick a guy hard enough to crack a wall while holding back

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Speed

While I am not completely sure yet who holds the edge here I do think Laura is fast enough to fight Slade.

Able to react to bullets after they're fired

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Kills 2 people in less than a second as a kid

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Cuts punisher's gun before he could pull the trigger

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Cuts someone's hand so fast they don't see her do it

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Senses

Laura has better senses than Slade given her strong sense of smell and hearing.

I think this one scan is enough to show what I mean.

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Durability/ Healing factor

This is where Laura has the biggest advantage over Slade.

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1.Took being thrown into the X-men mansion by hulk.

2.Takes an explosive charge Gambit

Has a better healing factor than wolverine

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Calls wolverine's healing factor slow

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I don't think I need to prove she can hurt Slade with her claws because I assume you know she can.

His actual showings are on a much higher level than Laura's. In Teen Titans Vol. 3 #46 (2007) Slade went untouched by a team of Titans including Donna Troy, Ravager, and Nightwing while holding back. I don't think that Laura's has ever come close to proving she could replicate this:

I find that fight questionable since Cassandra Cain was there and she is much more skilled than deathstroke.

With that said, I'm confident that Slade's Promethium sword will hold against Laura's adamantium claws. Then the fight will become a matter of speed and skill, and I'm just as confident in Slade outdoing Laura in both. Those aren't the only two factors in the fight, of course, but I think they're enough to secure Slade's victory.

Even if they can hold against her blades she will have the advantage if he gets close enough to have a sword fight since she has claws that come out of her feet, and as said by Tigra, Laura is fully able to go for someone's vital organs with them.

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Even though he won't be killed instantly by her doing this it will slow him down enough for her to get more attacks on him and tax his healing factor.

Conclusion

  • X-23 is fast enough to fight him.
  • She is skilled enough for deathstroke
  • Her healing factor advantage is bigger than his skill advantage
  • I don't think Slade is stronger

X-23 should take the win here

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#12 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Be sure to tag me moving forward. I don't want to miss any updates.

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#13 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: Nope... I've just been binge reading some comics. This is still an awesome fight.

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#17 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: You know, there have been far too many times on this site where I posted a half-hearted intro in a debate like this and totally vanished after the next post. It's been brought to my attention that I might have genuine, diagnosable avoidance issues, which could even be apart of something far larger. I'm sorry for those I've hurt, I'm gonna figure this out, and it's gonna get better. (lmao)

Round I:

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[Part 1 - Strength & Durability]: The New Teen Titans Vol. 1 #2 (1980)... Bam. What you see above you is taken from Deathstroke's first appearance; the very issue where his conceptions first truly became canon to any fictional timeline. A metal door that was, in honesty, probably too big was still no match for the Terminator's kick. It was ripped off its hinges, crumpled inward, and was taken clean off the ground.

You might argue that this issue is a bit dated as it is decades old and a Pre-Crisis showing. I disagree as it was written by Slade's creator, Marv Wolfman, who went on to write dozens upon dozens of Deathstroke appearances. He established the type of character that Slade's current writer, Christopher Priest, is trying to emulate for that matter. Of course, this is also on top of the fact that Deathstroke was not affected by the Crisis, though some power-levels of the people Slade fought prior to COIE have changed (Cyborg in particular went from being an easy 9-tonner to roughly a 4-tonner).

This feat by itself is more impressive than any standalone lifting/striking feat I'm aware of on Laura's end. Furthermore, in your Jubilee scan nothing is shown that suggests Lee was going for a fully powered vampire punch or not, and considering that Jubilee's official strength rating is twice that of Laura's own, it's reasonable to assume she was holding back. I do not see the feat as quantifiable.

That said, Deathstroke does have a similar feat that comes to mind. Allow me to cite Teen Titans Vol. 3 #46 (2007) once again, as in this issue Slade was able of stabbing through Cybrog's arm and freely pointing Vic's sonic cannon at his teammates:

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As has been pointed out to me in a past CaV, Cyborg did reel from the pain of being stabbed and it's likely that Slade took advantage from it. Regardless, Slade was overpowering Cyborg's arm for several seconds, and even when you consider the full context, Laura still doesn't have anything on it. I'll show you exactly how strong Cyborg is at the end of this post, by the way. For now, I think I've concretely reestablished Deathstroke's advantage in strength, but it's time to address how it's actually going to help him win the fight.

Deathstroke is quite fond of overpowering his enemies. This has stayed true throughout several decades. The first specific instance I'll cite was when he easily overwhelmed Batman in Detective Comics Vol. 1 #710 (1997). This was even after intentionally letting him land free hits due to the fact that he was fighting worse out of boredom during the entire arc:

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Deathstroke considers a fight with Batman a work out, lol. For the record Batman's own high-end physical feats aren't far-and-away inferior to Laura's yet his stats didn't help him any against Slade.

Moving on, Deathstroke showed off his fondness of overwhelming his opponents with his strength yet again in Nightwing Vol. 2 #82 (2003) after dodging his strike and dropping him with a precise kick to a wounded arm:

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Again, I'd like to point out that this speaks to how much physically stronger Slade is than Laura. X-23 doesn't have feats of knocking Nightwing-level opponents over with a flick. Even characters like Captain America don't perform quite that well.

I have one more example of Slade using his superior strength to win a fight, and it's from the 2010s. Last week in Deathstroke Vol. 4 #14 (2017) he fought an equally fast opponent, who was capable of running on falling debris RWBY style, and used his superior strength to crush him behind a dumpster. This killed him outright:

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In case anyone was wondering why the Ikon Suit was penetrated by a mere needle when we've seen it no-sell punches from Superman, it's because it's an unfinished prototype, and that's the bare sleeve. The Ikon Suit works by applying a gravity sheath to certain areas when its sensors detect incoming force. The sleeve Slade was stuck in has no sensors, so when Slade doesn't have the whole Ikon Suit activated it remains unprotected.

It'll be a lot tougher to knock out someone with Laura's durability, but I don't think it's impossible. This is why:

1.Took being thrown into the X-men mansion by hulk.

2.Takes an explosive charge Gambit

To be blunt: I think you're overestimating Laura's durability considerably. You're exclusively using her highest-end feats to paint a completely different picture than what X-23 is actually capable of. If she could just shrug off hits from Hulk she'd never have had blood drawn on her by a street-level character, yet this happens far, far too often to be ignored.

Moreover, the Hulk showings was just PIS. The X-Men were shitting on Hulk for the whole issue in a bunch of ways that didn't make any sense (Cyclops burning his skin off, for instance). Bottom-line, it's a low showing for Hulk, not Laura rightly being portrayed as overwhelmingly powerful.

I could similarly high-ball Deathstroke. He has feats of being possessed by Jericho and briefly staying conscious after getting body-slammed into concrete by Superboy, ripped through a building by Wonder Girl, and even struck by lightning in Teen Titans Vol. 3 #5 (2004):

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Slade did pass out on the next page, but the fact that he was even a little awake after all that should speak volumes to you.

He even withstood several punches from Wonder Woman in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #8 (2015) without wielding the notorious stat-amping God-Killer Sword. Diana tried crushing him underneath a tree and it literally didn't do anything to him:

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Granted, Hulk does hit harder than anything I just showed Slade taking, but it's the exact same type of shit you're pushing. Deathstroke has his high-end, as does Laura, but both are consistently at the level where they could still get hurt by a peak human. Then we get into my argument: if Laura's been bloodied by peak humans, then Slade is surely capable of knocking her out.

In addition, for whatever it's worth Slade does have feats like no-selling getting kicked in the head by Black Canary, who is capable of knocking out other peak humans underwater and even seemingly bending metal with an elbow.

I'd actually argue that Deathstroke is more durable than X-23, but unlike his strength, speed, and skill it's not an attribute that's going to help him win this particular fight. I say this, of course, solely due to the fact that Laura is sporting Adamantium claws that would flat out ignore his durability. This is why I only posting about Slade's healing factor/pain tolerance in my introduction.

[Part 2 - Speed & Skill]: I believe Deathstroke holds an edge over Laura in both of these areas, and that they're both going to help him win. The scans you've shown for Laura's skill all show off a very technical knowledge of killing, but I can provide an equal number of statements and feats for Deathstroke:

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  • - Scan #1 -Justice League Elite #2 (2004): Deathstroke identifies the use of nerve strikes, but induces temporary strokes instead.
  • - Scans #2-3 -Identity Crisis #3 (2004): Green Arrow likens Deathstroke to the "best grandmasters" as he drops Zatanna with a low-level pressure point. On the next page he's compared to Batman and makes a fool out of Hawkman by playing with his expectations.
  • - Scan #4 -Deathstroke Vol. 3 #18 (2016): Ra's Al Ghul once considered Slade a potential successor. To put this in perspective, even the most basic League of Assassins fodder have mastered all martial arts on Earth.

As you can see, Deathstroke certainly has feats and statements of the same type you've provided for Laura, but his showings against entire teams of superhumans are the real reason I consider him to be more skilled. He just performs on a higher-level, doing things Laura could not feasibly replicate...

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...And then there's speed. The scan you see above you is from Green Arrow Vol. 2 #85 (1994), and in case you don't know what you're looking at, Slade pushed Green Arrow out of the way of some bullets with one hand while simultaneously dodging them himself by merely cocking his head to the left. If you ask me, bullet-timing doesn't get any more "casual" than that, but it does get more impressive:

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What you're seeing is Deathstroke cutting apart automatic rounds in the air while simultaneously disarming and dismembering a couple of guys in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #11 (2015). Deathstroke has a few feats on this level, which I consider to be more in line with Iron Fist-fast characters rather than the usual 'enhanced' level I believe Laura to belong to.

Admittedly, the art is pretty vague, but I figured I've seen this feat used on not only Comic Vine, but enough various battle boards that I could just post it without having to link the artist's tweet. In said tweet he confirmed everything I just said, and it will be included at the bottom of this post.

However, speed can't be properly measured just in bullet-timing; but if it were I think I proved Slade's superiority. Laura killed two people during the span of a camera flash? Well, I've already provided Deathstroke landing several strikes on Beast Boy faster-than-thought.

Cuts punisher's gun before he could pull the trigger

I can provide Deathstroke accomplishing similar things with potentially greater ease. Take for instance Deathstroke the Terminator #24 (1993),in which Slade had a probable (though not fully concrete) bullet-timing feat, along with a lower-end but respectable lifting feat:

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I say lower-end since Deathstroke shouldn't have struggled as much as he did to tear that trunk off. It's a Batman-level strength feat, but at least he didn't flat out fail. Deathstroke's gone through some absurd swings in terms of how skilled or powerful he is, or even how fast he can heal. He's outright developed new abilities before.

Whether you think Slade flipped that whole man around before or after the trigger was pulled, it is at least on par with Laura's showing against Punisher. Given, Laura never even let Frank fire and he's also a much better marksman (complete with better reflexes) than the guy who's shaking hands ended up firing on Slade, but Slade was also standing much further away, had his back turned, and was moving a lot more in an overall comparable time frame.

Deathstroke's speed has significantly increased since this showing as well. Geo-Force claimed that Slade had become faster than ever as recently as DC Universe: Last Will & Testament #1 (2008), which coincidentally contained another similar feat to Laura's:

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Geo-Force, who Slade had just depowered but doesn't really have any notable speed feats anyway, rushed Slade, but Deathstroke threw his swords faster-than-eyesight, sending him several feet back and pinning him to a dumpster. No gun involved, but still, Slade barely moved and still ended up looking ridiculously superhuman.

There's just one more issue I'd like to cite, Deathstroke Vol. 3 #19 (2016), and that's because it contains the most recent and most comparable feat to the one in question...

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...Except it's flat out more impressive. Deathstroke guns down a few of the Dead Bastards (a group of rather elite mercenaries), ducks behind cover, and vanishes. With great speed and skill he reappears behind them, kills two of them at once, and then throws his sword through the third one too fast for the guy to pull the trigger, and hard enough to pin him to some stones and send blood bursting out the back of them. There were even little artistic flourishes emphasizing the speed at which Slade's sword traveled through the air. In my mind, this is undoubtedly more impressive than cutting Frank's gun.

Cuts someone's hand so fast they don't see her do it

I've already provided a lot of better speed feats than this so I'm not going to take any more time to address this feat specifically.

[Part 3 - Diversion]: Another way I picture Slade winning is by diverting Laura's attention, using that split-moment when she's not focused on Slade to decapitate her or some such. This wouldn't actually kill her as far as I'm aware, but it would take her out of the fight. The following Spoiler Block contains a number of instances in which Slade used everything from gear and stealth to raw speed to go unnoticed:

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  • - Scans #1-3 -Superman Vol. 2 #68 (1992): Deathstroke continually uses his surroundings to keep a step ahead of Superman (until he decides to wait him out by staying in one spot, allowing Superman's hearing to pick up his heartbeat).

  • - Scan #4 -Deathstroke the Terminator #23 (1993): Deathstroke gets behind the Janissary even though his line of sight was only averted from Slade for a moment. This is the type of stuff I could see him pulling on X-23.

  • - Scans #5-6 -Green Lantern Vol. 3 #42 (1993): Deathstroke uses gas to avert Green Lantern's attention and it totally works. Gas wouldn't work as well on Laura due to her senses, but current Deathstroke only carries explosives which should mess with her senses.

  • - Scans #7-8 -The Titans Vol. 2 #25 (2010): Deathstroke, immediately after performing some impressive bullet-timing, gets both himself and Lex Luthor out of Facade's line of sight, appears behind her, and takes her head off.

  • - Scans #9-10 -Deathstroke: Rebirth One-Shot (2016): This time Slade uses stealth to kill five men without any of them ever seeing him coming in the first place.

  • - Scans #11-12 - Deathstroke Vol. 4 #3 (2016): Deathstroke vanishes from his metahuman daughter's apartment. Obviously stealth wouldn't work on X-23, but the fact that he's so good at it does make reference to how overall skilled Slade is.

I think that proves Deathstroke can get Laura to lose focus for a moment or two, he could decapitate her and do what he did to Possum with his battle staff/energy lance/whatever-it's-being-called-nowadays in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #6 (2015):

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Yah... Can't imagine that not working.

[Part 4 - Additional Counters]: This is the spot for some extra things you said that I couldn't work into any of the above sections.

I find that fight questionable since Cassandra Cain was there and she is much more skilled than deathstroke.

Well I'm not here to argue about who's more skilled between Cass and Slade, but she had been poisoned a few issues back and thus kept somewhat weakened at the time. I can get scans and a proper citation if requested, but I don't have that much free time left and my internet is garbage anyways. Nonetheless, that should explain any skill discrepancy you believe exits between the two that causes the feat to not make sense.

Even if they can hold against her blades she will have the advantage if he gets close enough to have a sword fight since she has claws that come out of her feet, and as said by Tigra, Laura is fully able to go for someone's vital organs with them.

  • A: Is there any reason why Slade's sword couldn't hold against 23's claws? Priest has outright confirmed that it's unbreakable by any means known to the DC universe*, and I've already shown the scan and full citation of when Slade cut Superman with it.
  • B: Anyway, I was thinking Slade's 3-Dimensional fighting would help out against Laura's claws. I've provided the scan and citation of this being stated already, but Adeline Kane taught Slade "to peripherally defend himself on all sides at once, in every manner conceivable." That was without his sword, so with it I believe he could handle Laura's foot claws without going down.
  • C: Deathstroke's sword gives him a considerable reach advantage, not to mention the fact that at 6'4 he's just taller than Laura. In a swordfight, this means he could land strikes from easily twice the distance Laura can, putting her at a disadvantage of her own.

Even though he won't be killed instantly by her doing this it will slow him down enough for her to get more attacks on him and tax his healing factor.

Indeed, but between his own skill and speed along with an array of gear, I'd say Slade could gain some distance anytime he needed to. I could see the fight going like that maybe 2/10 times, but Deathstroke would still take an easy majority over her for reasons you've yet to address.

[Part 5 - Extra Context]: Anytime I said I'd show something at the bottom of the page, this is where it goes.

1. How Strong is Cyborg?

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Teen Titans Vol. 3 #3 (2003)

Apologies for the low-res scan, but as you can see Vic is strong enough to catch an exploding trolley and comfortably hold it above his head. Overpowering one of those arms does not come easy.

2. Tyler Kirkham Confirms Deathstroke Cut Bullets!

@IsaiahKBx2 I imagined Slade jumping in and swinging swords super fast like an anime. Cutting guns in half, limbs and bullets.Spraying blood

— Tyler Kirkham (@TylerKirkhamArt) February 9, 2016

Don't mind that twitter, by the way. It's totally not mine.

3. Priest Calls Slade's Sword Unbreakable

It is repeatedly stated throughout the comments on his blog posts and stated again on his Deathstroke page. Just have a look around, you'll find the sources.

[Part 6 - Conclusion]: So here it is, the tl;dr of what I said:

  • Deathstroke is totally stronger than Laura, and I'm not convinced he can't just knock her out.
  • Deathstroke is more skilled than Laura. He has just as much technical knowledge, plus he regularly performs on a higher level.
  • Deathstroke has better bullet-timing feats, better overall movement/blitzing feats, and he's so fast that he literally perceives time differently.
  • Deathstroke has everything he needs to get one-up on Laura. On top of his physicals and skill, this also includes his gear.

I've provided two ways Slade can beat Laura, reestablished his advantages in the way of skill, strength, and speed, and pointed out some errors on your part here and there. Hope you're game for a few more rounds.

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#19 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

@elijah_c_washington:

You know, there have been far too many times on this site where I posted a half-hearted intro in a debate like this and totally vanished after the next post. It's been brought to my attention that I might have genuine, diagnosable avoidance issues, which could even be apart of something far larger. I'm sorry for those I've hurt, I'm gonna figure this out, and it's gonna get better. (lmao)

Lol alright.

This feat by itself is more impressive than any standalone lifting/striking feat I'm aware of on Laura's end. Furthermore, in your Jubilee scan nothing is shown that suggests Lee was going for a fully powered vampire punch or not, and considering that Jubilee's official strength rating is twice that of Laura's own, it's reasonable to assume she was holding back. I do not see the feat as quantifiable.

Yeah you're right, and I am not going to try to argue who is stronger between deathstroke and X-23 but I don't think she will get absolutely destroyed in that area either since she is at least as strong as wolverine going by Storm's statement.

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As has been pointed out to me in a past CaV, Cyborg did reel from the pain of being stabbed and it's likely that Slade took advantage from it. Regardless, Slade was overpowering Cyborg's arm for several seconds, and even when you consider the full context, Laura still doesn't have anything on it. I'll show you exactly how strong Cyborg is at the end of this post, by the way. For now, I think I've concretely reestablished Deathstroke's advantage in strength, but it's time to address how it's actually going to help him win the fight.

If someone is being stabbed by a sword I don't think they will be able to immediately fight back, so I don't think this is really a strength feat for deathstroke.

Deathstroke is quite fond of overpowering his enemies. This has stayed true throughout several decades. The first specific instance I'll cite was when he easily overwhelmed Batman in Detective Comics Vol. 1 #710 (1997). This was even after intentionally letting him land free hits due to the fact that he was fighting worse out of boredom during the entire arc:

While this maybe true Laura has the durability take his punches and in character wouldn't be grappling Deathstroke or anything so while deathstroke's strength may help him here it won't give him a big advantage in the fight.

I'd actually argue that Deathstroke is more durable than X-23, but unlike his strength, speed, and skill it's not an attribute that's going to help him win this particular fight. I say this, of course, solely due to the fact that Laura is sporting Adamantium claws that would flat out ignore his durability. This is why I only posting about Slade's healing factor/pain tolerance in my introduction.

I disagree but you're right it doesn't matter with her claws.

Either way I don't think his healing factor will be enough, as X-23 won't be just barely scratching his armor.She will be slicing his limbs or through his head when she gets the chance which she has done before to people btw in combat.

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Also I might add in the second one she was shown blitzing several guards(heavily trained guard I might add) before they can fire on her.

Slade's healing factor has been said to only help with non lethal wounds as he stated after his first fight with batman.

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If/when Laura gets a few good slashes in deathstroke will be slowed down significantly.He also pretty much implies he only beats Batman based on having superior strength, meaning his skill isn't on Batman's level(not saying Laura's is), and that his speed advantage over Batman isn't so great.

And another speed feat she has is fighting Daken to a standstill who can literally dodge bullets fired inches in front of him.

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She also falls off a building and is ready to keep going so this is also a durability feat.

...Except it's flat out more impressive. Deathstroke guns down a few of the Dead Bastards (a group of rather elite mercenaries), ducks behind cover, and vanishes. With great speed and skill he reappears behind them, kills two of them at once, and then throws his sword through the third one too fast for the guy to pull the trigger, and hard enough to pin him to some stones and send blood bursting out the back of them. There were even little artistic flourishes emphasizing the speed at which Slade's sword traveled through the air. In my mind, this is undoubtedly more impressive than cutting Frank's gun.

Well by the time they turned around he was around right behind them.Laura had blitzed and killed four people before they could pull the trigger to their guns despite knowing she was right behind the door they torn down

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So I think Laura can compare to deathstroke to some degree in speed, even if Slade has the advantage in that area since people like Batman have shown themselves able to tag Slade multiple times in their fights.

To be blunt: I think you're overestimating Laura's durability considerably. You're exclusively using her highest-end feats to paint a completely different picture than what X-23 is actually capable of. If she could just shrug off hits from Hulk she'd never have had blood drawn on her by a street-level character, yet this happens far, far too often to be ignored.

I don't think Laura tanked the attack from the hulk as that would be crazy(besides we all know WWH was holding back during the entire event).She wasn't shrugging off his attack, but I do see it as a good durability feat for her.She can be hurt by deathstroke but I just think it takes more than he has to put her down.

Granted, Hulk does hit harder than anything I just showed Slade taking, but it's the exact same type of shit you're pushing. Deathstroke has his high-end, as does Laura, but both are consistently at the level where they could still get hurt by a peak human. Then we get into my argument: if Laura's been bloodied by peak humans, then Slade is surely capable of knocking her out.

As I said I am not saying she no sells punches from people like hulk, but what peak humans have bloodied her? And it is important to keep in mind just because you're able to hurt someone doesn't mean you can put them down especially when they have accelerated healing factors.

As you can see, Deathstroke certainly has feats and statements of the same type you've provided for Laura, but his showings against entire teams of superhumans are the real reason I consider him to be more skilled. He just performs on a higher-level, doing things Laura could not feasibly replicate...

When Emma frost was picking who would be on her new X-men team, X-23 fought several mutants at once.

Also keep in mind she had held her own and seemed to be winning in a fight against Old man Logan who is really skilled based on his guide entree

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Whether you think Slade flipped that whole man around before or after the trigger was pulled, it is at least on par with Laura's showing against Punisher. Given, Laura never even let Frank fire and he's also a much better marksman (complete with better reflexes) than the guy who's shaking hands ended up firing on Slade, but Slade was also standing much further away, had his back turned, and was moving a lotmore in an overall comparable time frame.

Well as you said punisher has better reflexes but honestly with reacting to bullets the farther the distance the easier it is.With Laura's feat it would be the opposite since she cut the gun before he could fire, and honestly I think my feat may still be more impressive than that one you shown. But as I said before I think that they're speed is close enough that Deathstroke won't be able to dodge all her attacks.

Now while Slade has a lot more stuff he can use against Laura some of these may not even help him if he tries them.

  • - Scans #1-3 -Superman Vol. 2 #68 (1992): Deathstroke continually uses his surroundings to keep a step ahead of Superman (until he decides to wait him out by staying in one spot, allowing Superman's hearing to pick up his heartbeat).

While that is a good showing he would hardly be able to try something like that on a aircraft carrier.Plus Laura always uses her sense of smell and hearing in fights where as most of the time Superman doesn't need to.

  • - Scan #4 -Deathstroke the Terminator #23 (1993): Deathstroke gets behind the Janissary even though his line of sight was only averted from Slade for a moment. This is the type of stuff I could see him pulling on X-23.

I think I explained why this won't help.

  • - Scans #5-6 -Green Lantern Vol. 3 #42 (1993): Deathstroke uses gas to avert Green Lantern's attention and it totally works. Gas wouldn't work as well on Laura due to her senses, but current Deathstroke only carries explosives which should mess with her senses.

Are you referring to flashbangs or just regular explosives?

  • - Scans #9-10 -Deathstroke: Rebirth One-Shot (2016): This time Slade uses stealth to kill five men without any of them ever seeing him coming in the first place.

She would be able to hear his heartbeat

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  • - Scans #11-12 - Deathstroke Vol. 4 #3 (2016): Deathstroke vanishes from his metahuman daughter's apartment. Obviously stealth wouldn't work on X-23, but the fact that he's so good at it does make reference to how overall skilled Slade is.

Alright, but isn't her only superpower pre-congition? Also off topic but why was he staring at her sleeping?

I think that proves Deathstroke can get Laura to lose focus for a moment or two, he could decapitate her and do what he did to Possum with his battle staff/energy lance/whatever-it's-being-called-nowadays in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #6 (2015):

Wolverine has resisted being hit with electricity due to his healing factor, and since hers is better I am sure she could the same.

  • A: Is there any reason why Slade's sword couldn't hold against 23's claws? Priest has outright confirmed that it's unbreakable by any means known to the DC universe*, and I've already shown the scan and full citation of when Slade cut Superman with it.

Well I mean Rockslide was stated to be near invulnerable.

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And as you know Laura easily sliced his arm off.

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  • B: Anyway, I was thinking Slade's 3-Dimensional fighting would help out against Laura's claws. I've provided the scan and citation of this being stated already, but Adeline Kane taught Slade "to peripherally defend himself on all sides at once, in every manner conceivable." That was without his sword, so with it I believe he could handle Laura's foot claws without going down.

Even so he will be eventually tagged by Laura, it is only is only a matter of if slade can take her down before he takes to much damage. And if it comes to it Laura can possibly outlast him when it comes to stamina due to her healing factor.

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  • C: Deathstroke's sword gives him a considerable reach advantage, not to mention the fact that at 6'4 he's just taller than Laura. In a swordfight, this means he could land strikes from easily twice the distance Laura can, putting her at a disadvantage of her own.

While this is true Laura will at some point get close to him and due to the fact that she has blade that come out of both her feet and hands she will have an advantage if/when they get close.

Indeed, but between his own skill and speed along with an array of gear, I'd say Slade could gain some distance anytime he needed to. I could see the fight going like that maybe 2/10 times, but Deathstroke would still take an easy majority over her for reasons you've yet to address.

Your best bet for Deathstroke taking Laura down is to cut her head off, but her healing factor exists in all the cells in her body as wolverine stated this for himself in uncanny x-men annual issue 11.

Do keep in mind I am not using his healing from a drop of blood as he had to be amped by an outside source to do it.

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So deathstroke's biggest problem will be actually putting her down, which would take some time for him to figure out if he can do it that is.

3. Priest Calls Slade's Sword Unbreakable

Ok.

  • Deathstroke is totally stronger than Laura, and I'm not convinced he can't just knock her out.

Would being punched by a Giant while de-powered and dying due to adamantium poisoning convince you?

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She wasn't knocked out by this by the way.

I can give you scans if you need to prove she was de-powered and dying.

  • Deathstroke is more skilled than Laura. He has just as much technical knowledge, plus he regularly performs on a higher level.

Sure, but Laura will still be going for killing blows or at least using attacks like slicing off limbs to eventually beat him.

  • Deathstroke has better bullet-timing feats, better overall movement/blitzing feats, and he's so fast that he literally perceives time differently.

Pretty much everyone with enhanced abilities does to a degree.

  • Deathstroke has everything he needs to get one-up on Laura. On top of his physicals and skill, this also includes his gear.

And yet not what he needs to put her down.

Hope you're game for a few more rounds.

If you are then yeah.

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#20 Edited by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: So, I'm thinking we go one more round after this and then a conclusion. Four posts each. Sound good?

Round II - Be Afraid:

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Strength & Striking:

Yeah you're right, and I am not going to try to argue who is stronger between deathstroke and X-23 but I don't think she will get absolutely destroyed in that area either since she is at least as strong as wolverine going by Storm's statement.

I think she's totally outmatched in the regard. "As strong as Wolverine" isn't that great a statement considering how downright inconsistent Logan's strength is (goes from officially non-superhuman to throwing Rogue for a loop), never mind the fact that as per your scan Storm only said this because she threw a table. That is a legitimate peak human feat. Batman's done better, and I've shown Slade casually catching his punch. Speaking of which, I've even seen Taskmaster, another peak human, easily catch and block Laura's strikes in All-New Wolverine #3 (2016):

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This on top of the fact that you haven't provided any comparable feats give me enough cause to confidently say that Laura is completely outclassed in strength. I think the voters will agree that Deathstroke is obviously stronger and by quite a bit.

While this maybe true Laura has the durability take his punches and in character wouldn't be grappling Deathstroke or anything so while deathstroke's strength may help him here it won't give him a big advantage in the fight.

Not as much of an edge as having superior speed and skill, but seeing as guys like Taskmaster can use their strength both offensively and defensively against X-23, I don't see it hurting Slade's chances. He's punched a subhuman's jaw off in The Titans Vol. 3 #36 (2011), as well as snapped another's neck in one motion and one-shotted two others on-panel:

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When Deathstroke's serious and not holding back, which he has no reason to here, he can rip people apart bare-handed. He's even outright stated he could do this to Nightwing in one of their early encounters in Tales of the Teen Titans Vol. 1 #43 (1984):

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His strength was clearly on display here, and I believe the statement is to be taken as fact rather than hyperbole considering the rest of Slade's feats. In contrast, that Wolverine claim seems much more like a one-off statement and not very conclusive of anything that aids your argument regardless.

Would being punched by a Giant while de-powered and dying due to adamantium poisoning convince you?

Again, a high-end feat. Deathstroke has done similar, but he can still be hurt by peak humans. There is no reason to believe that Laura is simply immune to getting knocked out, especially considering that characters less strong than Deathstroke have put the hurt on her in the past (again, Taskmaster).

Reflexes & Speed-Blitzing:

Either way I don't think his healing factor will be enough, as X-23 won't be just barely scratching his armor.She will be slicing his limbs or through his head which she has done before to people btw in combat.

You've provided her fighting Daken--who is much less imposing than Deathstroke--and not being able to land strikes like that. You've shown her do that type of stuff onlt to fodder, but Slade is far from fodder. Meanwhile, Slade has downright blitzed established characters, such as both Green Arrow and Black Canary at once in Green Arrow Vol. 3 #75 (2007). The former is a high-end arrow-timer and the latter possesses some bullet-timing feats:

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I've also provided him instantly dropping Hawkman out of the sky and going untouched by the Teen Titans. I think I've pretty solidly proven that Slade is far more likely to land a serious, debilitating strike than Laura. Decapitation ftw.

So I think Laura can compare to deathstroke to some degree in speed, even if Slade has the advantage in that area since people like Batman have shown themselves able to tag Slade multiple times in their fights.

As much as Batman tagged him in their first fight, I've provided Slade landing multiple strikes on Bruce before he could react, as well as straightforward blitzing feats against established fighters. Slade has just as many fodder-blitzing feats as Laura does. If she can't tag Taskmaster without using her foot-claws, she isn't going to have any easier of a time doing it to Slade.

Well as you said punisher has better reflexes but honestly with reacting to bullets the farther the distance the easier it is.With Laura's feat it would be the opposite since she cut the gun before he could fire, and honestly I think my feat may still be more impressive than that one you shown. But as I said before I think that they're speed is close enough that Deathstroke won't be able to dodge all her attacks.

Then how about when he gave Roy Harper a free shot in Outsiders Vol. 3 #22 (2005) by standing still from a few feet away, moved after the bullets were fired, and dodged them all with a handstand, effortlessly:

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Or seven issues later when he was fired upon while sitting in a limousine, got out of the limo, made his way over to the shooters, and beheaded all three at once without ever getting touched:

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Even just last year in Green Arrow Vol. 5 #51 (2016) Slade rolled through turret fire without getting tagged and threw his sword into the gunner's stomach faster than he could react, even faster than he could finish gloating:

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In fact, that bullet-cutting feat from my second post already proves Slade's speed advantage. I've shown Deathstroke completely overwhelm Batman in a fight already, so I'd go with a different argument than "if Batman can tag him then so can Laura" by now.

Durability & Healing Factor:

Slade's healing factor has been said to only help with non lethal wounds as he stated after his first fight with batman.

No offense, but you shouldn't be trying to debate Deathstroke context with me. That scan is from Deathstroke the Terminator #8 (1992), which was a screwy issue for a number of reasons, most notably being that it's just flat out dated. Deathstroke has healed lethal wounds a number of times even under that same writer, including having his brains blown out in Deathstroke Vol. 1 #60 (1996):

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This isn't even the only time he's healed from that exact injury. Regardless, I've already provided Slade fighting through having his throat and wrist slashed and being impaled, so he'll be able to tank what he needs to tank to win this fight.

She also falls off a building and is ready to keep going so this is also a durability feat.

In Deathstroke the Terminator #12 (1992) Slade fell hard enough to crush a car beneath his feet but immediately launched himself several feet away to catch a falling woman, which doubles as a non-bullet-timing speed feat that I doubt Laura could replicate:

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Deathstroke has also fallen hard enough to crack the street beneath him without being harmed in Nightwing Vol. 2 #82 (2003) after seriously wrecking Nightwing (who had a wounded arm but that's not the point):

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So yeah, while it doesn't matter here due to Laura's claws, I doubt I'm wrong in saying that Slade showcases more raw durability on a consistent basis, barring the absurdly high-end feats.

Additional Counters:

Alright, but isn't her only superpower pre-congition? Also off topic but why was he staring at her sleeping?

No, she has superhuman stats and senses roughly half that of Deathstroke's own. She was also extensively trained by Nightwing, eventually getting to the point where she could effortlessly outfight him. But she is nothing to Slade.

Well I mean Rockslide was stated to be near invulnerable.

And as you know Laura easily sliced his arm off.

A difference exists between "nearly invulnerable" and "unbreakable by any known means to the DC universe." Especially considering the latter statement isn't contradicted by anything and has been supported by the best in-comic feat it possibly could (cutting Superman).

Even so he will be eventually tagged by Laura, it is only is only a matter of if slade can take her down before he takes to much damage.

Slade will be tagged by Laura if/when she catches him off guard with her foot claws, and his healing can handle that. After being shot in Deathstroke Vol. 4 #4 (2016) his wounds began healing in seconds:

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Otherwise he'll overwhelm her as easily as Taskmaster did, and as easily as he did Batman. Deathstroke can take her in hand-to-hand, and with his sword he can dismember and decapitate her in no-time. Laura doesn't perform as well as she does against fodder as she does against Deathstroke-level opponents.

Sure, but Laura will still be going for killing blows or at least using attacks like slicing off limbs to eventually beat him.

I urge the voters to wait to see her land those strikes on someone comparable to Deathstroke. She couldn't land them on Daken, and she couldn't land them on Taskmaster. On the other hand, I have provided Deathstroke going untouched by the likes of Donna Troy among others, speed-blitzing an arrow and bullet-timer at once, easily overwhelming Batman in a fight, and killing someone who could match his own speed.

Your best bet for Deathstroke taking Laura down is to cut her head off, but her healing factor exists in all the cells in her body as wolverine stated this for himself in uncanny x-men annual issue 11.

This doesn't prove that Wolverine could survive decapitation, let alone Laura by extension. Furthermore, while her healing factor is faster, I still haven't seen anything suggesting that it's more powerful than Logan's. She's not walking off decaptation, let alone having it followed up by having her removed head electrocuted. Nothing you've provided is on that level.

Pretty much everyone with enhanced abilities does to a degree.

Doesn't mean Laura's are on par with Slade's. I've presented better feats in every category besides healing.

The Fight:

At this point you've all but admitted that Slade is faster, stronger and more skilled. Honestly I don't even think he needs any of those attention diverting tactics I went through the trouble of writing out when he can just outfight her, and with those three advantages her certainly can. Taskmaster did so with less.

Deathstroke does wreck. Laura isn't on his level of high-street.

Your turn, Mr. Boyo Hermano.

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#21 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by lukespeedblitz (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper trip down memory lane huh? ; )

Tag for votes by the way.

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#23 Posted by the_red_viper (12569 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
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#24 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#25 Posted by Elijah_C_Washington (4618 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: Well @watcher5000 called this one off. We can probably open it for votes if demanded, but I'm cool either way.

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#27 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@lanternbatman. Did you bump this because Watcher bumped your match with SFW?

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#28 Posted by Kevd4wg (12491 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by deactivated-5b6e1b2130fed (1311 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

That's just mean 😑

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#33 Posted by deactivated-5b6e1b2130fed (1311 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Kevd4wg (12491 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by deactivated-5b6e1b2130fed (1311 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Edited by Kevd4wg (12491 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by deactivated-5b6e1b2130fed (1311 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18239 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for elijah c Washington, quite frankly Watcher5000 did terrible.

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#42 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by deactivated-5b6e1b2130fed (1311 posts) - - Show Bio