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#1 Edited by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

Ser Bronn of Blackwater

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Vernon Roche

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Rules

- Challange a Viner

- Standard gear for both

- No prior knowledge

- In character

- Composite Vernon | Feats from Tv Series for Bronn

- It's combat trial, Vernon fights for Ves, Bronn fights for Tirion. Entire thing takes place here (100 feet long distance between opponents):

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#2 Posted by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by lubub55 (12877 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#4 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: Yeah. Looks good. Just if you can change it to Ser* (not Sir) lol.

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#5 Posted by foxerdes (9960 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#6 Posted by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: I won't use book version, strictly show.

I'd appreciate if you could start given that I know next to nothing on Roche.

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#8 Edited by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Edited by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

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Vernon Roche

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Vernon Roche is the commander of Temerian Blue Stripes for years. It's the elite, special forces group specialized in fighting against Scoiatel and solving the most difficult tasks. Under King Foltest leadership he was fighting in every Temerian war and when King Foltest has been assassinated and the country was under occupation he created group of guerrillas. He's master of the Guerrilla Warfare, patriot, great leader and the one who freed Temeria.

Vernon's feats and the Blue Stripes

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At the beginning: sorry for not separating his feats (strenght, reflexes etc) but our characters have so little feats that I don't see a reason to do that. I hope that, this will be easy to read.

Vernon is the strongest and most skilled of the Blue Stripes. As special forces they train six hours per day in h2h, archery and swordsmanship and their training is not an easy one. Their training so harsh and hard that many people doesn't survive it. The Blue Stripes are the second most elite and famous group of soldiers in the Witcherverse.

When King Foltest answered Henselt's request for aid with twenty foot soldiers in striped uniforms, Henselt grew furious. What difference could they possible make? Well. As it turned out, an enormous one.

The twenty foot Blue Stripes soldiers are enough to replace huge amount of soldiers which is true. Here two of the Blue Stripes easily invade enemy line, defeating soldiers guarding the main gate, off-screen in ten seconds. How do I know that gate was heavily guarded? King Foltest besieged this city for days if not weeks, every La Vallet soldier was trying his best to defend it. It's obvious that main gate to the Keep was guarded during siege.

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Vernon possess giant skill in swordsmanship. Sadly most of his feats are gameplay mechanics however we can still use them in other way.

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Here Vernon defeats Iorweth. The elf is famous from that he defeated and killed all special forces commanders from various kingdoms in 1vs1 fights.

Of course the training has huge benefits. Thanks to it Vernon is at his physical peak. While he's carring chainmail and huge amount of weapons it should slow him down right? Nah, Vernon is very agile and fast.

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Here Vernon throws his greatsword at the roof of a building killing his opponent. To do such thing you need to have great strenght. When Geralt was fighting h2h against Vernon (Geralt is a witcher with superhuman speed, reflexses, durability and strenght) he said that Roche has "hammers not hands". Which is completely true. About his reflexes Vernon has shown he can dodge crossbow bolt (which are faster than arrows) and equally fight against characters who are arrow-timers, Iorveth, his arch-enemy which he has defeated in one of the endings dodged lighting bolt after it was shot.

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It's clear that Vernon, despite his heavy gear, still has good agility.

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Vernon can take out his dagger from his belt and throw it at his opponent at any time. It took him one second to do it. Bronn has very similar feat. The dagger reached Iorweth in 0,5 second and the kukri reached the soldier in 0,5 second, so I guess they are equal in this aspect.

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Here Vernon "blitzes" one of the Scoiatel. Well he attacked him before he could parry/dodge so I guess it's a blitz. Hard to say honestly.

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Some other, random feats:

- Vernon is able to hold in place person with one arm

- Iorveth is able to overpower normal man with his hands tied up. Vernon stalemated with Iorweth strenght wise.

- One punch from Vernon is enough to stun a person

- One kick is enough to KO normal soldier

- He can KO Geralt with one punch. It's very impressive due to witcher's durability feats

- Vernon is able to lift Geralt and throw him on the ground. Of course I'm not saying that he could do that again. Geralt would murk him. This throw is caused by player not hitting the right button, however the animation shows that he's more than capable in ragdoling people and that he uses every opponent mistake as his advantage. One Geralt's mistake and boom, he was on the ground. He can do it to Bronn. But just in case there are few of Geralt's reflexes feats:

Vernon's gear

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Vernon's offensive gear in this fight:

- Twohanded greatsword

- Onehanded sword

- Metal mace

- Hidden dagger

Usually Vernon carries with him giant crossbow too, however in this fight it would be rather useless so we decided to not use that weapon.

Vernon defensive gear:

- Very long chainmail which covers his legs, arms and body

- Metal boots which protects his feets and legs

- Leather gloves which protects his hands

- Gambeson under chainmail which absorbs some kinetic force and overall protects his body

- Clothes on chainmail which absorbs kinetic force and makes chainmail more difficult to penetrate

- That weird, tough hat. It gives him some small protection for his head.

First thoughts

- Vernon possess very versatile gear. It's obvious that he has gear advantage over Bronn. Every part of his body is better protected and he has better weapons. Greatsword gives him massive reach advantage over his opponent. Also Vernon has hidden dagger which he can use instantly. It's also a great surprise advantage.

- Vernon should have swordsmanship skill advantage over here. Mostly because he has actual, harsh special forces training and he trains everyday for ~6 hours while Bronn drinks in taverns.

- Vernon has great strenght advantage.

- Vernon is not outmatched speed wise and his reflexes are more than enough to react to Bronn attacks.

- Vernon is way more skilled in h2h combat. Mostly because of his training, feats and Bronn's lack of h2h feats.

- While Bronn is sellsword since childhood I find Vernon experience more valuable. Special forces commander and being in a center of huge battles > being a sellsword. Of course Bronn also was in battles however he was fighting as simple soldier and Vernon is an recognizable commander who's one of the main targets during battles (despite that he still fights in the centre and walks out unharmed).

That's all for now, @the_red_viper your move

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#10 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#11 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: Nice. Will respond as soon as I can.

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#12 Posted by the_wspanialy (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: Oh God, I love that last pic lol.

T4V

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#13 Edited by lubub55 (12877 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: That was amazing. I never realized Vernon was that good.

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#14 Posted by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Thanks. Yeah, Vernon is pretty tough. Iorweth has even less feats but he should be Vernon's equal in melee combat and superior if we are talking about archery. In one of my threads I said that Vernon is above Bonhart, because he has solid feats and bounty hunter best feat is off-screen hype. However, I'm waiting for your respect thread about him. Maybe I just don't remember Bonhart's feats.

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#15 Edited by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

Bronn's theme song for this fight:

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Very unoriginal, I know, but I really couldn't think of anything better... but I love this version of this song so why not, lol.

Introducing Ser Bronn of the Blackwater:

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Bronn is not a great commander like Vernon. He is not even a soldier. He is just a simple man, of simple birth, who earns his living being a sellsword in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. Which makes him more impressive than any elite soldier could ever be: anyone can become a skilled fighter through harsh training on a daily basis. But it takes true and natural skill and prowess in order to do what Bronn has done in his exploits and even become a knight and a lord without any formal training, other than hard-earned experience.

Gear:

Bronn's gear is rather simple: longsword, knife and hard-leather armor. He is extremely deadly with both of these weapons, and while his armor does not offer much protection - it allows him great mobility and maneuverability during combat, and still softens any blow he might get.

Skill:

As I said, Bronn is an extremely skilled combatant. While Vernon himself is clearly very skilled as well, I don't think he outclasses Bronn at all.

For example, here Bronn and Jaime fight the Sand Snakes - Obara (spear), Nymeria (whip) and Tyene (knives). The Sand Snakes are highly experienced warriors, daughters of Prince Oberyn Martell - The Red Viper of Dorne. In this fight, while Jaime was dueling Obara, Bronn fought both Nymeria and Tyene. Nymeria's weapon of choice - the whip - is not only very unorthodox and rarely seen in combat, it also gives her good reach advantage. And she is very good with it too. Anyway, as you can see, Bronn fights equally with both of them, until Nym tries to grab Princess Myrcella and run off and the fight is interrupted by Areo Hotah and the Dornish guardsmen. Bronn gets tagged only once in this fight - a small cut on his arm (which would have been harmless if not for the poison that coated Tyene's knife).

Also, here is a much earlier scene (it's Bronn's first on-screen fight actually). While Lady Catelyn Stark's party is trekking the mountains of the Vale, they are caught up in an ambush of the Mountain Clans. The Mountain Clansmen had strength in numbers, as well as the obvious element of surprise (they're essentially guerrilla fighters, like Vernon himself) - and the only ones who actually survived this encounter were Catelyn, Tyrion, Rodrik (who was injured) and Bronn himself. Most of the major fight happens off-screen, but you can see Bronn dispatching of Clansman after Clansman with ease and amazing skill and speed in 0:15-0:23, and in 1:12 you can see him finishing off another one, thus ending the battle. Bronn remained completely unscathed throughout the whole fight, which is a good indication on his speed, skill and maneuverability. Also, do take note of his technique - how unorthodox and effective it is. Look at how he finishes off his first target, by putting his blade to the Clansman's throat and kicking him so that the blade cuts the man's throat. Shortly after he actually preforms a judo throw and finishes the enemy off with a half-swording technique. I usually don't put too much importance into choreography, but this is undoubtedly meant to show us how skilled and unpredictable Bronn is, especially given that he is the only one in the show that has ever demonstrated techniques like that.

Strength:

Bronn's strength is not superhuman or anything, but it is very impressive nevertheless, and often overlooked because he doesn't demonstrate it often.

For example, in Bronn's duel against Ser Vardis Egen, Ser Vardis tried pushing Bronn back at the Moon Door - which would obviously mean death. Ser Vardis was not only taller, but also far heavier due to wearing full steel plate armor, and was pushing Bronn with his shield - but Bronn held his ground and even managed to push Ser Vardis away:

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As another example, before Bronn and Jaime battled the Sand Snakes, Bronn KO'd Prince Trystane Martell with one punch:

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Now, let's look a bit deeper into this feat. Bronn was literally inches away from Trystane, which means he barely had any swing. In addition, he hit him with his left hand, which is his off-hand, so the punch was weaker than it would have been if it was his right hand. Also, it's a pretty solid reaction feat - Bronn hit Trystane before the latter could pull his sword out of its scabbard. When compared to Vernon's feat of dropping someone to their knees with a punch, this is really the more impressive one. Guess Vernon isn't the only one here with hammers instead of hands.

Fighting style:

Bronn's most notorious trait his is tendency to fight dirty. He has no honor whatsoever, and he makes use of that constantly. I would really not be surprised if Bronn's first move in this fight will be kicking sand in Vernon's face or pulling some other dirty trick.

Here, for example, Bronn teaches Podrick Payne the secrets of being an asshole:

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Also here, in a training session with Ser Jaime Lannister, Bronn actually tokk away Jaime's fake hand and hit him in the face with it:

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Also somewhat of a strength feat, because like when he hit Trystane, he was only inches away from Jaime and was using his left hand, and Jaime still dropped to the ground like a sack of leaves.

Not to mention his fight against Ser Vardis Egen. Might as well post the entire clip right now. Note how Bronn fights here. In 0:45 he kicks down a brazier to block Ser Vardis's way and maybe even hit him with it, and in 1:24 Bronn literally uses a bystander as a human shield and even throws the man at Ser Vardis.

Bronn was always a dirty fighter, and he will fight dirty here too. After all:

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Initial thoughts and counters to your points:

First of all, I would like to point out one major flaw that even you yourself acknowledged - the use of gameplay feats. The issue with these kinds of feats is, that they are dependent upon the player, not the character. In Vernon's fights with Geralt, for example, he would not have laid a finger on Geralt if the player holding the controller was good enough. Same goes for his fight against Iorweth; being a gameplay fight, and not a cutscene or lore piece or anything, that fight is not calculable. We know that Vernon defeated Iorweth, but we don't know how. This fight could have gone for hours and end with Vernon only barely winning, or it could go for all of 10 seconds with Vernon stomping the living hell out of Iorweth. Since this is a gameplay feat, it is not very applicable in a debate such as this.

Now to address your points:

- Vernon possess very versatile gear. It's obvious that he has gear advantage over Bronn. Every part of his body is better protected and he has better weapons. Greatsword gives him massive reach advantage over his opponent. Also Vernon has hidden dagger which he can use instantly. It's also a great surprise advantage.

Regarding gear, well while it is true that Vernon is better equipped overall, that really doesn't hinder Bronn. As you have seen, he always fights unarmored by choice. You have seen him battle a knight clad in steel plate and beat him in an arguable stomp. Chainmail is a lot more vulnerable than plate, and really doesn't offer too much protection. Bronn can, and will, cut and stab through it. He has done so in the past as you will see soon (also, it is not visible when he fought Vardis, but chain is always worn under plate in combat. It would be under Vardis's light-gray surcoat). You also said that Vernon's greatsword grants him a reach advantage. While it is not wrong, it also makes his swings slower and heavier. Moreover, it isn't REALLY a greatsword. Greatswords are much larger than that. Here, you can compare Vernon's toy to a REAL greatsword:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

- Vernon should have swordsmanship skill advantage over here. Mostly because he has actual, harsh special forces training and he trains everyday for ~6 hours while Bronn drinks in taverns.

- While Bronn is sellsword since childhood I find Vernon experience more valuable. Special forces commander and being in a center of huge battles > being a sellsword. Of course Bronn also was in battles however he was fighting as simple soldier and Vernon is an recognizable commander who's one of the main targets during battles (despite that he still fights in the centre and walks out unharmed).

Both these points are basically the same, and I already discussed this in the very beginning. I find Bronn to be more impressive, because while Vernon had reached his current level after years of harsh training - Bronn is the true natural here. He has never undergone any formal training that we know of. It's all sheer experience that made him the man he is today.

- Vernon has great strenght advantage.

Vernon's non-gameplay feats are pretty good, don't get me wrong, and I think this is a very good match. But I don't think that, outside of gameplay, Vernon has done anything that Bronn could not replicate, judging by his own feats. His strength is pretty good, but I think he is not really stronger than Bronn. Vernon's punching feat was surpassed by Bronn, and him KO'ing a soldier with a kick really had more to do with the fact that he kicked a huge metal door at the soldier's face than Vernon's own strength. Him throwing the sword was pretty good, I''ll give you that much, but all things considered I don't think it gives him much of a strength advantage against Bronn.

- Vernon is not outmatched speed wise and his reflexes are more than enough to react to Bronn attacks.

Speed will be discussed more thoroughly in my next post but Bronn should not be at a disadvantage here either.

- Vernon is way more skilled in h2h combat. Mostly because of his training, feats and Bronn's lack of h2h feats.

As you have seen, Bronn employs his hand-to-hand skill well into his fights as well as his skill with a sword, resulting in a very unique style that was very well demonstrated against the Mountain Clans. I don't think Vernon has displayed any skill feat so far that surpasses that.

Oh, and regarding what you said here:

while Bronn drinks in taverns.

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Anyway that is enough for my opener. Ball is on your side now, mate. Good luck ;)

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#16 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Edited by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio
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Respect for using the Rains of Castemare. I planned posting other song here but after you posted your version of this song I couldn't resist. Serj did great work here, the 2:43 is sick. Shame that there's no "clean" version.

Second post with lots of counter-arguments

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For example, here Bronn and Jaime fight the Sand Snakes - Obara (spear), Nymeria (whip) and Tyene (knives). The Sand Snakes are highly experienced warriors, daughters of Prince Oberyn Martell - The Red Viper of Dorne. In this fight, while Jaime was dueling Obara, Bronn fought both Nymeria and Tyene. Nymeria's weapon of choice - the whip - is not only very unorthodox and rarely seen in combat, it also gives her good reach advantage. And she is very good with it too. Anyway, as you can see, Bronn fights equally with both of them, until Nym tries to grab Princess Myrcella and run off and the fight is interrupted by Areo Hotah and the Dornish guardsmen. Bronn gets tagged only once in this fight - a small cut on his arm (which would have been harmless if not for the poison that coated Tyene's knife).

I usually don't put too much importance into choreography, but this is undoubtedly meant to show us how skilled and unpredictable Bronn is

Since you was talking about choreography which shows that Bronn is dangerous fighter, I'll talk about it too. The Sand Snakes are "highly experienced warriors" on paper while their fight choreography is one of the worst in the entire tv series. Tyene wasn't using her knives/daggers properly, it looked like she was doing it for the first time in her life. Whip is one of the most useless and weakest weapons if we are talking about Medieval-like combat. It's easy to counter and the whip can't penetrate even weakest armor. Any Hema (historical european martial arts) expert will tell you that. Adding to this, Nymeria wasn't attacking for most of the time, dunno why but she was spinning her whip instead of attacking for some reason. This fight is really not impressive. If you want you can watch this video where this Hema expert reviews the fight. He points out on many of Sand Snakes mistakes. Such as the whip and daggers. I know, that you can say "why should I care about some random yt guy opinion" but he actually one of the experts and instructors of Hema, the medieval-like combat. He possess very large, impressive, historically accurate knowledge due to doing this his whole life and using translated fight descriptions from medieval period.

Bronn's most notorious trait his is tendency to fight dirty. He has no honor whatsoever, and he makes use of that constantly. I would really not be surprised if Bronn's first move in this fight will be kicking sand in Vernon's face or pulling some other dirty trick.

Literally the only dirty thing he can do in this fight is kicking the sand. There's nothing else in the battlefield which can be thrown at Vernon's reflexes are good enough to dodge the sand.

First of all, I would like to point out one major flaw that even you yourself acknowledged - the use of gameplay feats. The issue with these kinds of feats is, that they are dependent upon the player, not the character. In Vernon's fights with Geralt, for example, he would not have laid a finger on Geralt if the player holding the controller was good enough. Same goes for his fight against Iorweth; being a gameplay fight, and not a cutscene or lore piece or anything, that fight is not calculable. We know that Vernon defeated Iorweth, but we don't know how. This fight could have gone for hours and end with Vernon only barely winning, or it could go for all of 10 seconds with Vernon stomping the living hell out of Iorweth. Since this is a gameplay feat, it is not very applicable in a debate such as this.

Vernon's punching feat was surpassed by Bronn,

There's a difference between gameplay feat and fully developed animation. Of course Vernon can't beat Geralt, however the animation (not gameplay mechanic) shows he's capable to KO Geralt with one punch. Oneshotting person with superhuman durability > sending on the ground normal human. Even if you will not taking this feat seriously, which I can understand, picking up a heavy person in full gear and throwing him on the ground in a second is also better than anything Bronn has ever done if we are talking about physical strenght showings.

About Iorveth, I understand your point but the fact alone he defeated him offscreen in a duel is a good feat. Stomping him or barely winning it's still a win against skilled opponent.'

Regarding gear, well while it is true that Vernon is better equipped overall, that really doesn't hinder Bronn. As you have seen, he always fights unarmored by choice. You have seen him battle a knight clad in steel plate and beat him in an arguable stomp. Chainmail is a lot more vulnerable than plate, and really doesn't offer too much protection. Bronn can, and will, cut and stab through it. He has done so in the past as you will see soon (also, it is not visible when he fought Vardis, but chain is always worn under plate in combat. It would be under Vardis's light-gray surcoat). You also said that Vernon's greatsword grants him a reach advantage. While it is not wrong, it also makes his swings slower and heavier. Moreover, it isn't REALLY a greatsword. Greatswords are much larger than that. Here, you can compare Vernon's toy to a REAL greatsword:

Not true. Chainmail is not always under plate armor. Often in history people didn't wear chainmail under such armor. Yes, it's historically correct to wear such thing but this wasn't a rule. Vardis for sure had gambeson. Gambeson was weared by everyone under chainmail and plate armor. He was not weared on the chainmail but under it and in this picture you can clearly see that Vardis doesn't have chainmail.

You can clearly see that under his armor he has only gambeson. No chainmail
You can clearly see that under his armor he has only gambeson. No chainmail

Also Bronn was tagging the not covered parts of Vardis body. It's not so easy to penetrate chainmail. Here, guy hits not protected by clothes chainmail and he barely destroyed few rings. Chainmails are made to stop cutting and stabbing attacks and it actually works. Vernon armor is also protected by clothes which are enough to absorb part of the kinetic force of the strike. Of course in fantasy novels, movies and tv series armor doesn't work and heroes can cut through plate armor like butter but I think we agree that it's ridiculous.

The thing which Ned has is not a real greatsword. It's a toy to show off, it looks like imitation of Scotish Claymore. This is how greatswords look in real life, 1, 2, 3, 4. There's only one type of sword which is bigger - The Scottish Claymore but it has his own category.

You are talking like the greatsword will change Vernon into a turtle. Greatsword are not that heavy. The Zweihander sword which is very similar to Vernon's sword weights only 2kg. It can be used without trouble: 1, | Here dude uses Claymore - sword which is far heavier than Vernon's and he's not outmatched speedwise by the longsword. I know that the fight doesn't look spectacular but it's how sword fights look in real life. Actually it may be shock for some people that in real life, accurate sword fights are not filled with jumps, running and spins. The Hema trainers are using translated intructions writed in medieval age so it's historically accurate.

Both these points are basically the same, and I already discussed this in the very beginning. I find Bronn to be more impressive, because while Vernon had reached his current level after years of harsh training - Bronn is the true natural here. He has never undergone any formal training that we know of. It's all sheer experience that made him the man he is today.

No the man he is today (knight and lord) is a effect of being a friend of the rich dude who made him knight and gave him land. All what Bronn had to do is beat Ser Vardis who is like Sand Snakes. Experienced on paper but any Hema beginner fights better than him. He was bullrushing all the time and swinging his sword in not proper, skilled way, leaving huge openings for Bronn to exploit. He even couldn't use his shield properly. Actually he wasn't using the shield at all. When striking with a sword you are using your shield at the same time protecting your attacking arm. It's the first basis of sword and shield combat. There you can see how to properly use a shield. The difference between shields does not matter because Vardis shield is, can, was and should be used in the same way. Ser Vardis would lose to anyone who has basic Hema training. Defeating him is not impressive.

Vernon's non-gameplay feats are pretty good, don't get me wrong, and I think this is a very good match. But I don't think that, outside of gameplay, Vernon has done anything that Bronn could not replicate, judging by his own feats.

If you will show me that Bronn is capable to casually lift an heavy man in full armor and throw him on the ground in a second or that he can oneshot person with superhuman durability (it's not gameplay mechanic but an animation) then I'll believe that Bronn can replicate everything. All you have shown about Bronn strenght is that he can send on the ground normal people with a punch. Vernon has done the same multiple times and even more. I'm not saying that he can ragdoll Bronn with his strenght or anything like that. But even slight strenght advantage makes it more difficult to parry sword strikes. Bronn will need to use more energy while parring. In a long fight this will be important. It's a small thing but many small things combined often give victory.

Speed will be discussed more thoroughly in my next post but Bronn should not be at a disadvantage here either.

I never said that he has disadvantage in this aspect. Actually speed-wise they are equal. I even posted it in my first post "The dagger reached Iorweth in 0,5 second and the kukri reached the soldier in 0,5 second, so I guess they are equal in this aspect".

Thoughts

- Vernon still has reach advantage. Reach advantage is lowballed by lots of people but it's one of the most important aspects in the medieval-like fight. That's why Hema experts says that the most difficult thing is fighting against someone with polearm (spear, danish long axe etc) because of massive reach advantage. When your opponent has such advantage, you just can't come close without risking getting hit and your opponent can stay in safe distance from you all the time. While Vernon's sword is not as long as polearm it's still longer than Bronn's longsword. It's another small thing which combined with other small things gives victory.

- Vernon is not outmatched speed wise by Bronn. Greatsword being slow is a myth from movies which can be easily debunked and Vernon has shown that he's more than agile despite having all that gear on his back.

- Bronn's skill feats are really not that impressive. His opponents despite being stated to be "experienced" cannot even use their weapons in a proper way, making mistakes which can be done only by beginners.

- Vernon is way better protected. Chainmail in real life actually works well when compared to useless, made from paper chainmail/plate armor from various movies, books and tv series. Bronn need to first pass the reach advantage, outskill Vernon and then injure him before he can react (remember that Vernon is crossbow-bolt timer and the only, not protected body part is Vernon's face). It's way harder then it sounds.

- Vernon still has a lot of h2h feats. Only one punch to the face is enough to stun or even KO Bronn. Not saying it will be easy or it will even happen but there's always small chance for everything.

- Bronn's "dirty techniques" are very limited by the battlefield

- I find actuall harsh special forces training to be better than being "natural" without any training but I guess it depends on the point of view.

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The better protection and reach advantage while not being outmatched strenght and speed wise is murderous combination. I don't think that Vernon stomps Bronn but by those reasons stated above I think that he takes majority of wins. 6-7/10.

That was fine opening mate. Good luck in the second post.

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#19 Posted by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

random bump

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#21 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

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Round 2: Rebuttal

If you don't mind I will not necessarily respond to everything you said in order, but I will divide it into categories.

Skill:

Since you was talking about choreography which shows that Bronn is dangerous fighter, I'll talk about it too. The Sand Snakes are "highly experienced warriors" on paper while their fight choreography is one of the worst in the entire tv series. Tyene wasn't using her knives/daggers properly, it looked like she was doing it for the first time in her life. Whip is one of the most useless and weakest weapons if we are talking about Medieval-like combat. It's easy to counter and the whip can't penetrate even weakest armor. Any Hema (historical european martial arts) expert will tell you that. Adding to this, Nymeria wasn't attacking for most of the time, dunno why but she was spinning her whip instead of attacking for some reason. This fight is really not impressive. If you want you can watch this video where this Hema expert reviews the fight. He points out on many of Sand Snakes mistakes. Such as the whip and daggers. I know, that you can say "why should I care about some random yt guy opinion" but he actually one of the experts and instructors of Hema, the medieval-like combat. He possess very large, impressive, historically accurate knowledge due to doing this his whole life and using translated fight descriptions from medieval period.

I was not talking about choreography to show that Bronn is an extremely dangerous fighter (that goes without saying) - I was talking about choreography to show that he is a very unique fighter. As I said, I never put much weight on choreography, but this fight is meant to show us how unique Bronn is. We never see anyone in the show fighting in a style that's even similar to this. You said that Bronn has no hand to hand feats or experience, and this shows otherwise. I pointed out his style to show how he does employ hand to hand techniques when fighting. I wasn't pointing out fast he was swinging his sword or where he was aiming his blows or whatever, because that's just nitpicking choreography. I was only pointing out highlights and things that should be taken into consideration when looking at Bronn's character and fighting style as a whole.

I am well aware that the choreography in the Sand Snakes fight is crap, you don't have to tell me, but it's still just choreography. But I am not judging it by that, and neither should you, or anyone else. I know that the whip is useless against armor, which is why Nymeria was using it - Dornishmen don't fight with armor, only those long yellow clothes. It's still an unorthodox weapon that can be used from a distance and can be used to grab people's hands to disarm them, grab their feet to make them fall to the ground, or just grab them in general to limit their mobility. She does it numerous times in the scene:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

It's really not as easy as you're trying to make it sound, fighting a knife-wielding opponent while a whip-wielding opponent supports them from a distance.

Strength:

There's a difference between gameplay feat and fully developed animation. Of course Vernon can't beat Geralt, however the animation (not gameplay mechanic) shows he's capable to KO Geralt with one punch. Oneshotting person with superhuman durability > sending on the ground normal human. Even if you will not taking this feat seriously, which I can understand, picking up a heavy person in full gear and throwing him on the ground in a second is also better than anything Bronn has ever done if we are talking about physical strenght showings.

About Iorveth, I understand your point but the fact alone he defeated him offscreen in a duel is a good feat. Stomping him or barely winning it's still a win against skilled opponent.'

Except Vernon never one-hit-KO'd Geralt. The video you linked starts at 1:48, while the fight itself starts at 1:24, and Geralt takes a lot of hits before being KO'd in 1:48. It's just a gameplay mechanic. The only legit striking feat Vernon has is punching a guy in the gut, while Bronn has a feat of KO'ing a guy in one punch, with barely any swing, and with his left hand. Throwing Geralt on the ground is somewhat OK as a feat but it is still a gameplay mechanic, and there's still Bronn matching in strength to someone who is taller than him as well as clad in full steel plate armor. Even if we take Vernon's feat as legit despite it being a gameplay mechanic, I would not put these two feats too far apart.

About Iorveth, we don't know what happened. It's as good as an off-screen fight, and for all we know, Iorveth was stomping Vernon and Vernon just happened to get a lucky shot. For all we know, Iorveth tripped on a rock and broke his neck. It's not applicable in a debate really.

If you will show me that Bronn is capable to casually lift an heavy man in full armor and throw him on the ground in a second or that he can oneshot person with superhuman durability (it's not gameplay mechanic but an animation) then I'll believe that Bronn can replicate everything. All you have shown about Bronn strenght is that he can send on the ground normal people with a punch. Vernon has done the same multiple times and even more. I'm not saying that he can ragdoll Bronn with his strenght or anything like that. But even slight strenght advantage makes it more difficult to parry sword strikes. Bronn will need to use more energy while parring. In a long fight this will be important. It's a small thing but many small things combined often give victory.

Literally both these things you mentioned are gameplay mechanics... Vernon's only legit pure striking strength feat was very unimpressive and was surpassed by Bronn already.

Besides, Bronn has taken vicious hits before. Here he takes an elbow from Areo Hotah, who is Prince Doran Martell's captain of the guard, standing 1.95 meters (6"6 feet) of pure muscle:

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As you can see, he got back up immediately.

Gear:

Not true. Chainmail is not always under plate armor. Often in history people didn't wear chainmail under such armor. Yes, it's historically correct to wear such thing but this wasn't a rule. Vardis for sure had gambeson. Gambeson was weared by everyone under chainmail and plate armor. He was not weared on the chainmail but under it and in this picture you can clearly see that Vardis doesn't have chainmail.

Chain armor is pretty consistently shown in "Game of Thrones" to be worn under surcoats like Ser Vardis had. For example:

Lord Roose Bolton wore chainmail under his surcoat:

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Also the soldier that Bronn used as a human shield against Ser Vardis wore chainmail under his clothing, which would imply that Vardis most likely did too:

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Even Vernon himself wears chainmail under his surcoat:

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As well as more characters that appear in the videos that you posted.

Also Bronn was tagging the not covered parts of Vardis body. It's not so easy to penetrate chainmail. Here, guy hits not protected by clothes chainmail and he barely destroyed few rings. Chainmails are made to stop cutting and stabbing attacks and it actually works. Vernon armor is also protected by clothes which are enough to absorb part of the kinetic force of the strike. Of course in fantasy novels, movies and tv series armor doesn't work and heroes can cut through plate armor like butter but I think we agree that it's ridiculous.

Except Bronn has fought enemies in chanmail just fine. For example, in the Battle of the Blackwater. At one point in the fight, Bronn was charged by 2 enemy warriors from King Stannis Baratheon's army. He killed them both in 4 seconds with only his knife:

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I know that the darkness, the distance and the crappy quality make it harder to see, but Stannis's warriors were all shown to be wearing chainmail earlier in the episode. This includes the archers:

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And the foot soldiers:

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As well as Stannis himself (under the plate, look at the left arm, you can see the chainmail clearly):

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Bronn has taken out enemies in both plate and in chain. Vernon is no different.

Also Bronn was tagging the not covered parts of Vardis body. It's not so easy to penetrate chainmail. Here, guy hits not protected by clothes chainmail and he barely destroyed few rings. Chainmails are made to stop cutting and stabbing attacks and it actually works. Vernon armor is also protected by clothes which are enough to absorb part of the kinetic force of the strike. Of course in fantasy novels, movies and tv series armor doesn't work and heroes can cut through plate armor like butter but I think we agree that it's ridiculous.

The thing which Ned has is not a real greatsword. It's a toy to show off, it looks like imitation of Scotish Claymore. This is how greatswords look in real life, 1, 2, 3, 4. There's only one type of sword which is bigger - The Scottish Claymore but it has his own category.

You are talking like the greatsword will change Vernon into a turtle. Greatsword are not that heavy. The Zweihander sword which is very similar to Vernon's sword weights only 2kg. It can be used without trouble: 1, | Here dude uses Claymore - sword which is far heavier than Vernon's and he's not outmatched speedwise by the longsword. I know that the fight doesn't look spectacular but it's how sword fights look in real life. Actually it may be shock for some people that in real life, accurate sword fights are not filled with jumps, running and spins. The Hema trainers are using translated intructions writed in medieval age so it's historically accurate.

Doesn't matter, it's just semantics. Bronn has fought against reach advantage before. Above you see him killing 2 sword-wielding enemies with only his knife. He has also fought against Ser Vardis who used a sword similar to his, but had the reach advantage due to being taller. Speaking of height, is Vernon's height ever specified? Because Jerome Flynn (the actor who portrays Bronn) is pretty tall - he stands 1.80 meters/6 feet tall. So, assuming Bronn is taller than Vernon, that would compensate for the reach disadvantage a bit.

While it is true that greatswords are not as heavy as a warhammer or anything, they are heavier than a one-handed longsword. Add to that the fact that Vernon carries around 3 more weapons, as well as steel chainmail, and he will get tired a lot faster than Bronn who fights in light armor of boiled leather and carries only a longsword and a knife. In addition, using a 2-handed sword limits your maneuverability, because you need both hands to wield it, while Bronn has one hand free and can attack quicker. He can dual-wield sword and knife (although he never did it on screen, he was going to do it once, which implies that he can do it skillfully), he can throw punches, etc.

No the man he is today (knight and lord) is a effect of being a friend of the rich dude who made him knight and gave him land. All what Bronn had to do is beat Ser Vardis who is like Sand Snakes. Experienced on paper but any Hema beginner fights better than him. He was bullrushing all the time and swinging his sword in not proper, skilled way, leaving huge openings for Bronn to exploit. He even couldn't use his shield properly. Actually he wasn't using the shield at all. When striking with a sword you are using your shield at the same time protecting your attacking arm. It's the first basis of sword and shield combat. There you can see how to properly use a shield. The difference between shields does not matter because Vardis shield is, can, was and should be used in the same way. Ser Vardis would lose to anyone who has basic Hema training. Defeating him is not impressive.

Again nitpicking on choreography... you can stop doing that now, lol. Ser Vardis was chosen out of many knights to be Lady Lysa Arryn's champion in the trial by combat. He knows how to fight, and nitpicking on choreography won't change that.

Anyway, Bronn was not made a knight after he defeated Vardis. He is called "Ser Bronn of the Blackwater" for a reason. He was knighted after the Battle of the Blackwater, for his great performance in it. He was knighted by the king, not by Tyrion ("the rich dude"). I don't even think Tyrion can knight anyone, I believe that a knight can only be knighted by another knight or a member of the royal family (king/prince).

Fighting style:

Literally the only dirty thing he can do in this fight is kicking the sand. There's nothing else in the battlefield which can be thrown at Vernon's reflexes are good enough to dodge the sand.

What? No, Bronn can do many things here. Off the top of my head, other than kicking sand, he can spit in Vernon's eye or pull him by that gold amulet he is always wearing, or anything he can think of really. Even pull down a man from the crowd and use them as a human shield. And I don't think you showed any reflex feats for Vernon other than fighting Geralt via gameplay mechanic. In fact, the only reflex feats you posted were for Geralt, not Vernon, and you acknowledged that in a real fight (not a gameplay mechanic), Geralt would stomp Vernon. So your scaling is false and there is nothing to suggest Vernon has the reaction speed necessary to dodge a dirty move from Bronn, like kicking sand in his eyes.

Speed:

I never said that he has disadvantage in this aspect. Actually speed-wise they are equal. I even posted it in my first post "The dagger reached Iorweth in 0,5 second and the kukri reached the soldier in 0,5 second, so I guess they are equal in this aspect".

That's the thing though. They are not equals; Bronn is faster. Best example for that would be when Bronn and Jaime fought 4 Dornish horsemen. Bronn reacted to charging horses in full gallop (4:25, 4:41 in the background), and defeated all his enemies without even getting tagged. Even the one that Jaime killed could have easily been killed by Bronn (Bronn killed his horse and could have killed the man too), but he left that one for Jaime just for sport. Jaime was useless in that fight, Bronn effectively killed all 4 of them. And Vernon's best (and only) speed feats are gameplay mechanics, or "blitzing" an elf (which wasn't really blitzing, he just killed him in one blow, and Bronn has done basically the same thing).

Stamina:

As I said earlier, Bronn will outlast Vernon. Bronn is wearing only leather and carrying a longsword and a knife, while Vernon wears steel chainmail in addition to his clothes and carries a greatsword, a longsword, a mace and a knife. Vernon will tire out earlier than Bronn, and his strikes will become slower and more cumbersome, his footwork and reflexes will start to become slower, while Bronn who is already faster than him will be as good as new. Bronn knows how to use this advantage as demonstrated in his fight against Ser Vardis: he kept his distance, played defensive, and let Ser Vardis tire out before finishing him.

Summary:

  • Bronn is stronger than Vernon. Most of Vernon's strength feats are not legit because they are gameplay mechanics. His only striking feat is punching a man in the gut and was surpassed by Bronn. His only raw strength feat is throwing his sword and it shouldn't be above Bronn's feat of holding off Ser Vardis.
  • Bronn is faster than Vernon. Vernon has no speed feats while Bronn can play whack-the-mole with galloping horses. You said that Vernon is a crossbow timer, but the only one that you showed reacting to crossbow quarrels is Geralt, who you admitted would stomp Vernon in any fight that doesn't involve gameplay mechanics.
  • You are trying to debunk Bronn's feats by criticizing choreography which is a very weak argument.
  • Vernon will tire out faster than Bronn due to carrying far heavier gear and armor, and being weaker and slower to begin with.
  • While it's true that Vernon has reach advantage, Bronn has fought against foes with greater reach on multiple occasions and not only won, but stomped.
  • While it's true that Vernon is better protected, Bronn has fought against armored foes on multiple occasions and not only won, but stomped.
  • Bronn will fight dirty. No matter how, no matter what, he will find a way to pull off some dirty trick that Vernon would never expect. He is not limited by the battlefield as you suggested.
  • Unlike Vernon, who has trained for hours each day to become what he is now, Bronn is a natural fighter who has risen from being a simple man to being a knight and even a lord by proving his worth in the Battle of the Blackwater - one of the most intense battles in the show, as well as many other battles, despite his lack of formal training.

Vernon will likely be Bronn's hardest fight yet, but I am confident that he will win.

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Your move mate. Last post, make it count!

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#23 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by lubub55 (12877 posts) - - Show Bio

ATTENTION

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#26 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Edited by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

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Third post, the summary with few counters and last words

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Except Vernon never one-hit-KO'd Geralt. The video you linked starts at 1:48, while the fight itself starts at 1:24, and Geralt takes a lot of hits before being KO'd in 1:48. It's just a gameplay mechanic. The only legit striking feat Vernon has is punching a guy in the gut, while Bronn has a feat of KO'ing a guy in one punch, with barely any swing, and with his left hand. Throwing Geralt on the ground is somewhat OK as a feat but it is still a gameplay mechanic, and there's still Bronn matching in strength to someone who is taller than him as well as clad in full steel plate armor. Even if we take Vernon's feat as legit despite it being a gameplay mechanic, I would not put these two feats too far apart.

You don't know what's gameplay mechanic and an animation is. This is gameplay mechanic feat. Olgierd strikes Geralt to the head with his sabre and Geralt survives because he has HP bar. The gameplay mechanic in Geralt vs Vernon fight is that player allowed Vernon to strike Geralt but when it happens there's fully developed animation which appears after gameplay. During that the player doesn't have any controll and you can even see the very short "cut" when gameplay (all of those gameplay punches before) changes into completely separate animation, a short cutscene based on game engine. For me it shows that Vernon is capable to do such thing like lifting a person and throwing him at the ground in a second.

But, honestly I wonder what others will think about it. I'm not sure if you just don't understand thing which is obvious for me or just I am so stupid that I can't see that I'm so wrong about gameplay mechanic meaning.

About Iorveth, we don't know what happened. It's as good as an off-screen fight, and for all we know, Iorveth was stomping Vernon and Vernon just happened to get a lucky shot. For all we know, Iorveth tripped on a rock and broke his neck. It's not applicable in a debate really.

I agree with that off-screen fights are tricky and not really trustful but it would be hard for Iorveth to talk with Vernon after fight with broken neck (just kidding :P)

Vernon's only legit pure striking strength feat was very unimpressive and was surpassed by Bronn already.

Bronn is stronger than Vernon. Most of Vernon's strength feats are not legit because they are gameplay mechanics. His only striking feat is punching a man in the gut and was surpassed by Bronn. His only raw strength feat is throwing his sword and it shouldn't be above Bronn's feat of holding off Ser Vardis.

Besides, Bronn has taken vicious hits before. Here he takes an elbow from Areo Hotah, who is Prince Doran Martell's captain of the guard, standing 1.95 meters (6"6 feet) of pure muscle

Only striking feat? Well, I guess that we will not agree in this aspect anyway so I'll skip it. You are still forgetting about Vernon pure strenght. He has shown few times that he's way stronger than normal, human soldiers overpowering them easily. I see that from "Vernon is not stronger, they are equal" it changed into "Bronn is stronger" from nowhere. No Bronn is not stronger than Vernon. Bronn best striking feat is sending a guy on the ground when Vernon did the same. Bronn pure strenght feat is stalemating with Ser Vardis, a character without any strenght feats. Of course we can assume that Vardis strenght is easy equal to normal, standard, human strenght. It would be logical doesn't it? Vernon was overpowering normal humans before. Once with one hand. His blows are so powerfull that normal soldiers cannot parry them, he's literally ragdolling their arms. A person with superhuman durability and strenght said that Vernon's punches feel like hammers strikes. That means something.

About that hit from captain of the guard. Bronn was stunned for few seconds leaving himself vulnerable and becoming an easy target. Hardly and impressive feat.

Except Bronn has fought enemies in chanmail just fine. For example, in the Battle of the Blackwater. At one point in the fight, Bronn was charged by 2 enemy warriors from King Stannis Baratheon's army. He killed them both in 4 seconds with only his knife

Bronn has taken out enemies in both plate and in chain. Vernon is no different.

Now we are in the stalemate. What you said you proves my statement about crappy armors in novels, tv series and movies:

"Of course in fantasy novels, movies and tv series armor doesn't work and heroes can cut through plate armor like butter but I think we agree that it's ridiculous"

Just like Bronn did in his fight against two soldiers where he cut back of plate armor with his knive killing one soldier. I thought that our fight takes place in realistic universe where armor works like in real life. If it does, Bronn doesn't have any chance to penetrate Vernon's chainmail easily. If it does, then jokes on me, misinterpretation which I discovered too late. I have described it more in summary section.

Doesn't matter, it's just semantics. Bronn has fought against reach advantage before. Above you see him killing 2 sword-wielding enemies with only his knife. He has also fought against Ser Vardis who used a sword similar to his, but had the reach advantage due to being taller. Speaking of height, is Vernon's height ever specified? Because Jerome Flynn (the actor who portrays Bronn) is pretty tall - he stands 1.80 meters/6 feet tall. So, assuming Bronn is taller than Vernon, that would compensate for the reach disadvantage a bit.

Well his opponents who had the reach advantage were simple, not skilled fodder. I could show plenty of their mistakes such as bullrushing which negates reach advantage but after your respond to.. inconvenient choreography. I'll be not nitpicking it.

About Vernon's height, he's not smaller than Geralt and Geralt is about 6'1 tall. I guess they are equal in this aspect.

While it is true that greatswords are not as heavy as a warhammer or anything, they are heavier than a one-handed longsword. Add to that the fact that Vernon carries around 3 more weapons, as well as steel chainmail, and he will get tired a lot faster than Bronn who fights in light armor of boiled leather and carries only a longsword and a knife. In addition, using a 2-handed sword limits your maneuverability

As I said earlier, Bronn will outlast Vernon. Bronn is wearing only leather and carrying a longsword and a knife, while Vernon wears steel chainmail in addition to his clothes and carries a greatsword, a longsword, a mace and a knife. Vernon will tire out earlier than Bronn, and his strikes will become slower and more cumbersome, his footwork and reflexes will start to become slower, while Bronn who is already faster than him will be as good as new. Bronn knows how to use this advantage as demonstrated in his fight against Ser Vardis: he kept his distance, played defensive, and let Ser Vardis tire out before finishing him.

I already have shown the difference in weight between greatsword and longsword (in my previous post). The gap is minimal and there's no difference in combat speed (I even posted video from Greatsword vs Longsword sparring). Maneuverability? I guess that this "limited" maneuvarability didn't stopped him from doing all of those acrobatic moves.

Also we have two opponents. One is in his peak, physical condition due to daily, 6 hours long, literally murderous training and the other daily drinks in taverns. Both have shown that they are capable to fight in huge battles without being scratched (for Vernon - siege of La'Vallet castle, siege of Kaer Morhen and siege of Aedirn are solid examples) which means they are fast enough to handle many opponents at the same time. I doubt that Bronn can tire out Vernon, especially that Vernon was never shown to be tired before.

What? No, Bronn can do many things here. Off the top of my head, other than kicking sand, he can spit in Vernon's eye or pull him by that gold amulet he is always wearing, or anything he can think of really. Even pull down a man from the crowd and use them as a human shield. And I don't think you showed any reflex feats for Vernon other than fighting Geralt via gameplay mechanic. In fact, the only reflex feats you posted were for Geralt, not Vernon, and you acknowledged that in a real fight (not a gameplay mechanic), Geralt would stomp Vernon. So your scaling is false and there is nothing to suggest Vernon has the reaction speed necessary to dodge a dirty move from Bronn, like kicking sand in his eyes.

Spitting into the eye and pulling by gold amulet will be very hard due to Vernon's reach advantage and training. How he's going to pull down a man from the crowd? I mean, the battlefield is arena in Geonosis, in the background you can see that platform where people sit is protected by many feet tall wall. Bronn will not be even able to reach anybody. Unless you are saying that he will climb there.

Reflexes feat? When Geralt and Vernon ran you can see that one shooter shots from his crossbow to Geralt and the witcher parries it. The second shooter shots to Vernon (you can see the movement of the crossbow characteristic when crossbow shots and that he's aiming at Vernon) and the blue stripes commander makes small duck, dodging the bolt. Iorveth and Vernon are pretty much equals. They fought multiple times, twice in the game (there in one short cutscene Vernon reacts to Iorveth blitz and after that is another scene Roche says that Iorveth was defeated but escaped). I don't need to mention that Iorveth is lightning-bolt timer and yes it was an attempt of blitz because Iorveth attacked Vernon after 1 second when he got his sword back and between them was several meters distance (can be checked in game). He needed to run impossibly fast. Also just to be sure: I never scaled reflexes and speed from Geralt in this cav. I never said that fighting against Geralt h2h gives him speed or reflexes feats. I don't know why you think this way. Maybe you went to far when nitpicking what is gameplay mechanic and what is not and started telling others that I'm using gameplay mechanics for speed and reflexes feats. Maybe you mean that I posted Geralt's reflexes feats in the first post, dunno but I posted them "just in case" and never used them again. In fact I scaled only Vernon's strenght by Geralt's quote after fight and KO'ing Geralt (witcher durability).

That's the thing though. They are not equals; Bronn is faster. Best example for that would be when Bronn and Jaime fought 4 Dornish horsemen. Bronn reacted to charging horses in full gallop (4:25, 4:41 in the background), and defeated all his enemies without even getting tagged. Even the one that Jaime killed could have easily been killed by Bronn (Bronn killed his horse and could have killed the man too), but he left that one for Jaime just for sport. Jaime was useless in that fight, Bronn effectively killed all 4 of them. And Vernon's best (and only) speed feats are gameplay mechanics, or "blitzing" an elf (which wasn't really blitzing, he just killed him in one blow, and Bronn has done basically the same thing).

Hm, for first time you said that Bronn is not outmatched speed wise and now you are saying that he's faster. Ok, then let's check this out. Bronn was able to defeat four enemies without being tagged which is equal to Vernon being part in huge, Temerian battles in the front line. Vernon has shown three times that he attacks before normal, human, trained soldier can react (one Scoiatel and two Kaedwen soldiers). Bronn can take out his kukri from the back and throw it in 0,5 second and Vernon take out his dagger from the back and throw it in a 0,5 second (both checked on internet site where you can make gifs with very precise time counter). The horse in full gallop is similar to or even slower than crossbow bolt to which Vernon reacted. Our characters are, at least, equal.

Last summary

  • Bronn doesn't have any strenght advantage. Vernon's feats are similar to / better than Bronn's. At least they are equals but I dare to say that Vernon has slight strenght advantage. Just because of his showings where he overpowers normal humans.
  • Bronn is not faster than Vernon and Vernon's reaction feats are good enough to protect himself from the sand.
  • Bronn dirty techniques are still negated by the battlefield (he can use only sand). Spitting into his opponent's eye or grabbing golden amulet is negated by Vernon's reach advantage.
  • Vernon's reach advantage is still important. Bronn's opponents who had the reach advantage were unnamed, unskilled fodder who couldn't even use the advantage and were just negating it by bullrushing showing their lack of skill (I know, I know "choreography").
  • If I can't use choreography then my opponent also shouldn't. Saying that:

I never put much weight on choreography, but this fight is meant to show us how unique Bronn is

Is putting weight on choreography. Both statements, my and my opponents are basicially the same, my statements were just longer and more complex. Fights in tv series are only choreography. If my complex arguments are "poor" because they are about choreography then what is this?

  • Vernon's peak physical condition and daily, very long, harsh training prevents him from tiring out before Bronn.
  • If armor works in realistic way (like it should), Bronn doesn't have any "easy" chance to penetrate Vernon's armor. Of course if we are going with Hollywood logic then this debate is pointless and they should be fighting naked. You can wear anything from clothes to plate armor - you will still be dead after one strike from hero who can use even a butter knife if he wants to. In game of thrones only in season 1 they cared about gear realism and the battle of Blackwater where Bronn penetrates plate armor with a knive is in the season2.
  • Vernon has h2h skill advantage. One mistake from Bronn can be fatal for him.
  • I still think that Vernon is more experienced. Bronn is a natural, that's true but Vernon also was an natural. His mother was a prostitute and he didn't had a father. He was raised in poor family without any perspective. Only his determination and abilities gave him a chance to become King's Foltest soldier and after few years of harsh, murderous training he became the strongest of commanders and the leader of one of the most elite special forces in his respectable universe.

______________________________

Like I said, Vernon can't stomp Bronn. It will be evenly matched, long fight. The opponents are equal in most of the aspects but Vernon has few small advantages and many small advantages often gives victory.

Last words

I want to say that it was an honour to make cav with you @the_red_viper. It was highly enjoyable experience, as I always wanted to have cav with you, now at the end I'm not disappointed. Sorry for that I writed this cav in such unorganised way but I still hope that it was easy to read for you and I wish good luck in the third post and the voting.

Master Viper! You have fought gallantly, but it's over. Surrender!

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#28 Posted by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: Cool, will respond as soon as I can.

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#30 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

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Round 3: Closing arguments and summary

Skill:

I agree with that off-screen fights are tricky and not really trustful but it would be hard for Iorveth to talk with Vernon after fight with broken neck (just kidding :P)

Well you catch my drift, for all we know Iorveth fell and broke his leg then.

If I can't use choreography then my opponent also shouldn't. Saying that:

I never put much weight on choreography, but this fight is meant to show us how unique Bronn is

Is putting weight on choreography. Both statements, my and my opponents are basicially the same, my statements were just longer and more complex. Fights in tv series are only choreography. If my complex arguments are "poor" because they are about choreography then what is this?

As I explained, there is a difference. What you are doing is trying to debunk Bronn's skill by comparing him and his opponents to videos of real-world "experts", which is nitpicking choreography. What I did was point out that when Bronn fights, he employs both swordfighting and hand-to-hand fighting, because you suggested that Bronn has never displayed hand-to-hand skill. I did not nitpick on Bronn's techniques of strike, block and parry, or his footwork or anything of the sort like you did when you claimed that Tyene Sand is a bad fighter who does beginner's errors with knives or that Ser Vardis Egen is a bad fighter who can't even use sword and shield. What I did was pointing out that Bronn's style and technique are very unique and unpredictable, and that he does, in fact, have hand-to-hand skill.

Strength:

You don't know what's gameplay mechanic and an animation is. This is gameplay mechanic feat. Olgierd strikes Geralt to the head with his sabre and Geralt survives because he has HP bar. The gameplay mechanic in Geralt vs Vernon fight is that player allowed Vernon to strike Geralt but when it happens there's fully developed animation which appears after gameplay. During that the player doesn't have any controll and you can even see the very short "cut" when gameplay (all of those gameplay punches before) changes into completely separate animation, a short cutscene based on game engine. For me it shows that Vernon is capable to do such thing like lifting a person and throwing him at the ground in a second.

But, honestly I wonder what others will think about it. I'm not sure if you just don't understand thing which is obvious for me or just I am so stupid that I can't see that I'm so wrong about gameplay mechanic meaning.

Gameplay mechanic is what allowed Vernon to beat an enemy several tiers above him such as Geralt. In a real battle, as you yourself acknowledged, Vernon would stand no chance against Geralt. It's only the player holding the controller being incompetent and unable to beat the game's AI which allowed Vernon to win. Even still, the whole fight takes more than 20 seconds at the end of which there is the animation where Geralt is knocked out.

The throwing him up in the air thing is also a gameplay mechanic. You say that Vernon can toss a fully armed and armored men in the air, but it would have been the exact same animation even if Geralt was there all naked. It would have also been the exact same animation if Geralt was there clad in 3 layers of full steel plate armor and carrying 6 swords. The game mechanic doesn't care, because it's just a gameplay mechanic.

Only striking feat? Well, I guess that we will not agree in this aspect anyway so I'll skip it. You are still forgetting about Vernon pure strenght. He has shown few times that he's way stronger than normal, human soldiers overpowering them easily. I see that from "Vernon is not stronger, they are equal" it changed into "Bronn is stronger" from nowhere. No Bronn is not stronger than Vernon. Bronn best striking feat is sending a guy on the ground when Vernon did the same. Bronn pure strenght feat is stalemating with Ser Vardis, a character without any strenght feats. Of course we can assume that Vardis strenght is easy equal to normal, standard, human strenght. It would be logical doesn't it? Vernon was overpowering normal humans before. Once with one hand. His blows are so powerfull that normal soldiers cannot parry them, he's literally ragdolling their arms. A person with superhuman durability and strenght said that Vernon's punches feel like hammers strikes. That means something.

About that hit from captain of the guard. Bronn was stunned for few seconds leaving himself vulnerable and becoming an easy target. Hardly and impressive feat.

The difference is that Vernon only made a guy fall to his knees, with a punch to the gut from his dominant (right) hand. Come on, even I can make a man fall to his knees if I punch them in the gut, anyone can. Bronn on the other hand, knocked a man out with a punch, with his off-hand. Bronn stalemating Ser Vardis is impressive because Ser Vardis was much heavier and had far more mass behind his push due to wearing full steel plate armor (almost 30 kilograms), as well as being taller. And Bronn barely moved an inch and even managed to push Vardis away. It's like having a sumo match against someone who is several weight classes above you. 30 kilograms is the difference between "Lightweight" and "Heavyweight" in boxing. Matching strength with Vardis is in fact a very, very, very good strength feat for Bronn.

When Bronn was struck by Areo Hotah, it came as a complete surprise attack (there's an old saying in boxing that says "The punch you don't see coming is the punch that hurts the most"). Hotah is also huge as you can clearly see, and he struck Bronn with an elbow (which generally hurts more than a punch), and Bronn was stunned, yes, but he got back up immediately. A lesser man could have easily been knocked out by a hit like that. In addition, Bronn just got out of a prison cell where he also almost died from poisoning so he was very far from his physical peak.

Gear:

Now we are in the stalemate. What you said you proves my statement about crappy armors in novels, tv series and movies:

"Of course in fantasy novels, movies and tv series armor doesn't work and heroes can cut through plate armor like butter but I think we agree that it's ridiculous"

Just like Bronn did in his fight against two soldiers where he cut back of plate armor with his knive killing one soldier. I thought that our fight takes place in realistic universe where armor works like in real life. If it does, Bronn doesn't have any chance to penetrate Vernon's chainmail easily. If it does, then jokes on me, misinterpretation which I discovered too late. I have described it more in summary section.

So your only defense against Bronn consistently penetrating chainmail is that usually armor in live-action is inferior to real life armor? It is not a profound argument. I would argue that Bronn is simply strong and precise enough, and has good enough weapons, in order to consistently penetrate chainmail. I already proved that Bronn is very strong, and you can see that he is precise enough to battle evenly against multiple horsemen. Also, while it is less relevant, he is precise enough to throw his knife right at a man's throat in an underhand throw (which is harder) as you have seen here already in my previous post. So Bronn penetrating chainmail can either be explained by an unproven claim that "armor in live action is always crappy", or by the proven strength, skill and precision that Bronn has.

And those guys that he killed didn't have plate armor, maybe just plate gorgets, shoulder-pieces and helmets. I know it is hard to see because of the dark scenery, the distance and the crappy quality of the GIF so here is a better look of these soldiers:

Example 1:

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Example 2 (that one is very good):

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Example 3 (also very good):

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And under that, as you have seen, was their chainmail.

Well his opponents who had the reach advantage were simple, not skilled fodder. I could show plenty of their mistakes such as bullrushing which negates reach advantage but after your respond to.. inconvenient choreography. I'll be not nitpicking it.

Vardis was not a simple unskilled fodder, and the soldiers on the Battle of the Blackwater were... soldiers. And they were 2 men, while Bronn was only one, and he was still fast and skilled enough to stomp them.

About Vernon's height, he's not smaller than Geralt and Geralt is about 6'1 tall. I guess they are equal in this aspect.

Fair enough.

I already have shown the difference in weight between greatsword and longsword (in my previous post). The gap is minimal and there's no difference in combat speed (I even posted video from Greatsword vs Longsword sparring). Maneuverability? I guess that this "limited" maneuvarability didn't stopped him from doing all of those acrobatic moves.

My point was that Vernon is more limited than Bronn. Bronn has one hand with the sword, and the other is free to use the knife, throw punches, grab Vernon, etc. While Vernon has to use both hands for his sword.

Also we have two opponents. One is in his peak, physical condition due to daily, 6 hours long, literally murderous training and the other daily drinks in taverns. Both have shown that they are capable to fight in huge battles without being scratched (for Vernon - siege of La'Vallet castle, siege of Kaer Morhen and siege of Aedirn are solid examples) which means they are fast enough to handle many opponents at the same time. I doubt that Bronn can tire out Vernon, especially that Vernon was never shown to be tired before.

That is a pretty weak argument. Bronn has never been defeated before that we have seen, does that mean that he is unbeatable? Of course not. Both Bronn and Vernon are in excellent shape, the difference is that Vernon carries far heavier gear that Bronn, and he will wear down quicker than Bronn. Bronn drinking in taverns didn't stop him from stomping Ser Vardis who, like all household knights, was also practicing daily like Vernon. It didn't stop him from performing so well at the Battle of the Blackwater that he was knighted and later became a lord. It didn't stop him from stomping through Mountain Clansmen and it didn't stop him from fighting in the Battle of the Green Fork without even being tagged (I didn't post it because it was off screen). It didn't stop him from solo'ing 4 Dornish mounted warriors (light cavalry) and it didn't stop him from fighting two sand-snakes at the same time.

Fighting style:

Spitting into the eye and pulling by gold amulet will be very hard due to Vernon's reach advantage and training. How he's going to pull down a man from the crowd? I mean, the battlefield is arena in Geonosis, in the background you can see that platform where people sit is protected by many feet tall wall. Bronn will not be even able to reach anybody. Unless you are saying that he will climb there.

I was just tossing some ideas, and I guess that other than pulling someone down from the crowd they are all still very possible. Bronn consistently fights dirty, he always does. And I don't know how far you can spit but I'm 100% sure that Bronn can spit in Vernon's eye even with his reach advantage lol. Anyway he can still kick sand in his face because Vernon has all of zero reaction feats, he can even pull the same trick he did against the Dornish horseman and just throw his knife at Vernon.

Speed:

Reflexes feat? When Geralt and Vernon ran you can see that one shooter shots from his crossbow to Geralt and the witcher parries it. The second shooter shots to Vernon (you can see the movement of the crossbow characteristic when crossbow shots and that he's aiming at Vernon) and the blue stripes commander makes small duck, dodging the bolt.

Vernon did not dodge a crossbow bolt... he didn't even aim dodge... he literally just zig-zagged a bit and lowered his head which is pretty much exactly what any soldier is trained to do when he is under fire and is running for cover even in modern times where soldiers need to avoid being shot by automatic gunfire. Lowering your head just makes you harder to hit in general, it doesn't mean that he dodged a crossbow bolt. You don't even see where the bolt went. That is not a legit, proven reaction feat. Best case scenario it's just an aim-dodge and while it's not bad at all, it's nothing to prove that he is faster than Bronn.

Iorveth and Vernon are pretty much equals. They fought multiple times, twice in the game (there in one short cutscene Vernon reacts to Iorveth blitz and after that is another scene Roche says that Iorveth was defeated but escaped). I don't need to mention that Iorveth is lightning-bolt timer and yes it was an attempt of blitz because Iorveth attacked Vernon after 1 second when he got his sword back and between them was several meters distance (can be checked in game). He needed to run impossibly fast. Also just to be sure: I never scaled reflexes and speed from Geralt in this cav. I never said that fighting against Geralt h2h gives him speed or reflexes feats. I don't know why you think this way. Maybe you went to far when nitpicking what is gameplay mechanic and what is not and started telling others that I'm using gameplay mechanics for speed and reflexes feats. Maybe you mean that I posted Geralt's reflexes feats in the first post, dunno but I posted them "just in case" and never used them again. In fact I scaled only Vernon's strenght by Geralt's quote after fight and KO'ing Geralt (witcher durability).

OK first of all using new feats in your final post is not usually acceptable but I will let you get away with it because this isn't even a feat. Vernon literally just blocked one strike from Iorveth, you have a really wrong idea on what a "blitz" is. Fact is, that if Vernon's only reflex feats are not dodging a crossbow bolt, and blocking one hit from Iorveth, it is really nothing and I mean nothing compared to Bronn casually tearing through groups of enemies and even reacting to and practically solo'ing 4 horsemen, even when the horses are in full gallop.

Hm, for first time you said that Bronn is not outmatched speed wise and now you are saying that he's faster. Ok, then let's check this out. Bronn was able to defeat four enemies without being tagged which is equal to Vernon being part in huge, Temerian battles in the front line. Vernon has shown three times that he attacks before normal, human, trained soldier can react (one Scoiatel and two Kaedwen soldiers). Bronn can take out his kukri from the back and throw it in 0,5 second and Vernon take out his dagger from the back and throw it in a 0,5 second (both checked on internet site where you can make gifs with very precise time counter). The horse in full gallop is similar to or even slower than crossbow bolt to which Vernon reacted. Our characters are, at least, equal.

I said that Bronn is not outmatched because I waited to see if you will post any better speed feats, which you didn't, so I felt comfortable saying that Bronn is faster.

Bronn's feat of solo'ing the Dornishmen and reacting to horses in full gallop is completely different from Vernon participating in large battles, which Bronn has done as well needless to say. In Bronn's case, he was alone (well he was with Jaime but Jaime was useless there), against 4 people, who were all focused on him and him alone. They charged at him on horseback, in full gallop, and Bronn managed to evade and strike at precisely the right moment to kill them/their horses. Bronn can tear through groups of enemies, demonstrated in his fight against the Mountain Clansmen and in the Blackwater, and I assume that Vernon can do it as well. Vernon's reactions are limited to reacting to one blow from Iorveth and not being hit by an incompetent crossbowman. Yeah, Bronn is faster, and even if they were equals - Vernon will tire out faster than Bronn due to wearing heavier armor and carrying a lot of weapons while Bronn wears only hard leather and carries a longsword and a knife.

Summary:

  • Bronn's strength feats are better than Vernon's. He stalemated a man who weighs at least 30 kg more than him (thanks to his armor) in a tug-of-war-like situation, and has knocked out a man with one punch to the face with his left hand, which is better than Vernon's feat of bringing a man to his knees with a punch to the gut, which literally anyone could replicate if they aim for the right spot.
  • Bronn's speed feats are better than Vernon's. In fact, Vernon doesn't even really have speed feats. He only managed to block a one blow from Iorveth, and he didn't really dodge a crossbow bolt like you suggested, while Bronn has managed to evade and react to horses in full gallop.
  • Vernon will tire out faster than Bronn because he carries far heavier armor and weapons.
  • Most of Vernon's feats are gameplay mechanics and are inapplicable in a debate.
  • While Vernon has superior reach, Bronn has defeated and even stomped enemies with superior reach on multiple occasions before.
  • While Vernon has superior armor, Bronn has defeated and even stomped enemies with superior armor on multiple occasions before.
  • Bronn is also skilled in hand-to-hand combat, Vernon has no advantage in that regard.
  • Bronn can, and will use dirty and clever tactics in this fight, because he always does.
  • Trying to criticize choreography is a very weak argument.
  • Presenting new feats in your last posts is pretty low.

All in all, while they are very close in most aspects, Bronn is overall superior due to being stronger, faster, smarter and at least as skilled as Vernon. At the very least, he will be able to outlast him due to wearing lighter armor and carrying less gear.

Last words:

I want to say that it was an honour to make cav with you @the_red_viper. It was highly enjoyable experience, as I always wanted to have cav with you, now at the end I'm not disappointed. Sorry for that I writed this cav in such unorganised way but I still hope that it was easy to read for you and I wish good luck in the third post and the voting.

Thank you for the kind words. I have enjoyed this very much as well, and I think it was a very good debate. You made good points, and I was glad to learn more about Vernon Roche. Good luck ;)

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#31 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Rockette (5666 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll actually go with Red on this one.

Good job both of you, but Red had the more convincing argument, and made me believe Bronn, the obvious under-dog, could actually win here.

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#34 Edited by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Great post, btw, I'm just asking about your personal thoughts, not in a cav:

Do you really think that Bronn can penetrate chainmail with a stab/cut? I mean to do such thing you would need massive strenght as I shown that real-life , somehow trained (they body looks smiliar to Bronn's) humans cannot penetrate this type of armor in a short time. Of course I can see him stabbing Vernon to the throat after outskilling him but that's a completely different story.

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#35 Edited by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: I think it requires more precision rather than strength.

By the way you should edit the title so it says voting is open.

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#36 Posted by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by foxerdes (9960 posts) - - Show Bio

Just few thoughts.

Xerolot:

I'd use two quotes to describe your mistakes:

"..Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy..."

and:

"..Standing on the defensive indicates insufficient strength; attacking, a superabundance of strength..."

Long story short, you need to know when you actually have enough feats and solid evidences to attack your opponent and when you don't. For example Bronn has way more skill feats and thus you should have defend yourself, use everything you can to establish your position and hold your own in that area. It doesn't mean that Bronn is more skilled but you can't really call Roche a superior fighter either, while Bronn has more showings while Vernon has a really good accolade ( six hours of training per day, Blue Stripes were described as best of the best, fighting elves who can move incredibly fast). There was no need to attack here if you weren't certain you can win.

"..Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory.."

It's much better to secure and push unqestionable advantages (superabundance of strenght) instead of trying to push each single one and let your opponent counter you in the process.

"..Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy..."

Your primal goal should be trying to establish Vernon as equal or capable of holding his own in more questionable and ambiguous ares (speed/skill/strenght) and push those that cannot be easily undermined (discipline/strenght of will, endurance/stamina and what's most important versatility.) Trying to win at every step doesn't really work.

Obviously there were strong points, impressive knowledge of medieval combat and weaponery that could rival that of Viper aswell as insightful analysis of certain feats . Still I feel like you could have do better work with feats (using questionable gameplay mechanics or defeating Iorweth despite the fact that elf can beat Roche if the player chooses the right path) and formatting, it was a tad messy.

Overally a solid debate, I'd say that rush and certain lack of organization was your downfall. Viper didn't do anything special but at the same time he made no mistake (or at least not an important one) and that's the path to victory.

Viper:

Bravo, a decent debate. It was obvious that you know Bronn's strenght and weakness and specific advantages you can push e.g dirty fighting. You did the best you could considering the characters and used each feat to the fullest. I especially liked his showings from Battle of the Blackwater like effortlessly killing two soldiers with a knife but there were few other like the arm throw or wrestling with Ser Vardis. In the end despite not having any high end feat you managed to solidly establish Bronn as capable fighter and then attack weak points of your opponent (questionable feats and overselling certain things). As for dirty fighting, I was willing to agree with Xer since the area was rather empty but you made me realize that spitting and other tricks are still viable, fair point.

Now some nitpicking. I wasn't really convinced by two feats interpretations:

  • Bronn hitting Prince Trystane
  • Bronn getting hit by Areo

First of all despite close distance between Bronn and Trystane, the former still took full swing. It's not like the strike was negligent, quite the opposite, Bronn lost his balance in the process. Second: Bronn hit Tristan in the jaw, one of the most vulnerable ares on the human bodies. Sure, the distance and left hand compensate a little bit but the feat was still oversold in my opinion.

As for Areo, it wasn't combat and there is no telling if Aero used his full strenght, as far as we know Trystance wanted to humiliate Bronn, not knock him out cold. It's still a good showings, after Areo is huge and it's not like he tickled him either but I wouldn't push it too far. Establishing Bronn as someone capable of taking a hit? Highlighting his quick recovery time? Obviously. But I wouldn't give him hand to hand superiority based on said feats alone.

Anyway I don't recall those points being countered so it's meaningless anyway.

EDIT: Oh, and Vernon aim-dodged that crossbow bolt. We have never seen crossbow bolt traveling, only after they were deflected since they lose their momentum.

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#39 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: Thanks for the feedback mate. Was it a vote though?

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#40 Posted by foxerdes (9960 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#43 Posted by Wyldsong (9723 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#45 Posted by the_wspanialy (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

And again I'm finding myself in situation when I have to refrein from voting.

While it was overall a very good deabte @xerolot's insitance on using shitty choreography as an counterargument and @the_red_viper's insitance on considering almost everything Vernon did as part of game mechanic was a little disappointing.

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#46 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by Wyldsong (9723 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper: Working on reading this now, will try and drop a vote next day or so bud

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#48 Posted by lubub55 (12877 posts) - - Show Bio

I will vote never soon.

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#49 Posted by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong: Sounds good mate. That would be much appreciated.

Also, bump.

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#50 Edited by the_red_viper (12571 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump =\

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